Q&A with Praetorian - National Level Competitor

[declan]

Its dose dependant...anxiety, tremors, CNS stimulation, irritability, nervousness, MAO inhibitor at higher doses, headaches, dizziness, etc
P

I'm only taking 1/2 ml so far, and jittery is there. I probably ramp it up slowly till I hit 1ml and see how much tolerance I got on this stuff. I'm doing keto and T3 with it.

[bigtavi8]

Prae i have a question for ya. If one is taking antibiotics to clear up an infection would it throw off there diet, water retention. Should they train the affected aREA (MINE being my right bicep). Im only 11 weeks out but id hate to miss a training session. What do you think.

[steve_o]

HCG 1500 iu ETD starting one week after your last test shot for a total of 10,000iu
clomid 50mg twice daily for three weeks once HCG is finished
Use an AI concurrently with the HCG and clomid...12.5mg aromasin ED is fine
Nolva can be used in conjunction with clomid 20mg daily if u have it

Never do a "weight loss" after your cycle....thats a time for PCT and to normalize....if you want to diet plan for it and run it with a decent cycle for a decent time.
P

Thank you very much for the advice. I really appreciate and the knowledge that you give this forum for free. After my normalization period could you suggest a good cutting cycle. It would only be my second cycle though. I will done PCT in mid June so I am not able to start another cycle till mid October. Any advice would be great.

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae, I am in the 5th week of a bulking cycle using 1g test and 700mg deca per week along with 6iu GH per day. I was on a maintenance diet of roughly 2200 cals mostly protein and fat. Now I am eating 3500-4000 cals per day 50g protein, 50g carbs, 20g fat each meal 6-7 meals per day. I have gained about 17 lbs so far, mostly water, strength is going up nicely, typical results like past cycles. The only thing is that I havent gained any fat, in fact it seems like I may be even getting a little leaner. I am only doing mild cardio 2 days per week(if even). My question is should I be eating even more to realize the best gains possible. I know its desireable to gain a little fat during cycle to ensure you are in a calorie surplus environment. I am 5'11" 225 lbs and roughly 10-11% fat.
thanks

The GH is helping keep you lean....you could up cals to a point where you notice fat gain then back off slightly. The thing is you cannot force muscle growth...it takes time and excess cals will usually just mean excess fat...the key is to get to that sweet spot where you have plenty of cals but not overloading.
P

[Praetorian]

I'm only taking 1/2 ml so far, and jittery is there. I probably ramp it up slowly till I hit 1ml and see how much tolerance I got on this stuff. I'm doing keto and T3 with it.

I dont like yohimbe on a keto diet with all the CNS stimualtion etc...clen would be a much better choice.
P

[Praetorian]

Prae i have a question for ya. If one is taking antibiotics to clear up an infection would it throw off there diet, water retention. Should they train the affected aREA (MINE being my right bicep). Im only 11 weeks out but id hate to miss a training session. What do you think.

A regular run of antibiotics is usually 7-10 days at most....the infection should be cleared up by then...which means at worst you might miss one arm workout...not an issue. It should not affect your diet as the duration isnt very long...as for water retention you arent going on stage yet so no issue...it will be long gone if there even was any by that time.
P

[Praetorian]

Thank you very much for the advice. I really appreciate and the knowledge that you give this forum for free. After my normalization period could you suggest a good cutting cycle. It would only be my second cycle though. I will done PCT in mid June so I am not able to start another cycle till mid October. Any advice would be great.

Are you planning on competing or just dieting?
P

[declan]

A quick question, is diet coke/pepsi ok when on keto? I read mix opinions, some say yes but others say there is a hidden amount of aspartame in it.

[steve_o]

Are you planning on competing or just dieting?
P

I am planning on competing but not until early next year. I am going to take the next year to bulk and then come the new year I am going to diet for my show or shows depending on time restraints. I was thinking of doing maybe a Test E, Tren and Winny Stack with Clen thrown in the mix possibly depending on bf% at the time. Not sure about dosage though.
Week 1 - 12 Test E - 500-600mg/week
Week 1 - 8 Tren - 100mg EOD
Week 4 - 9 Winny - 50mg/day
Week 7 - 14 Clen - 40mg/day then up it 20mg every 2 weeks then taper down
Week 15-18 - PCT
Clomid 100/100/100/50
Nolva - 40/20/20/20

AI - Arimidex .5mg E3d

Would I need anything else while on cycle? Is this cycle even appropriate?

[Praetorian]

I am planning on competing but not until early next year. I am going to take the next year to bulk and then come the new year I am going to diet for my show or shows depending on time restraints. I was thinking of doing maybe a Test E, Tren and Winny Stack with Clen thrown in the mix possibly depending on bf% at the time. Not sure about dosage though.
Week 1 - 12 Test E - 500-600mg/week
Week 1 - 8 Tren - 100mg EOD
Week 4 - 9 Winny - 50mg/day
Week 7 - 14 Clen - 40mg/day then up it 20mg every 2 weeks then taper down
Week 15-18 - PCT
Clomid 100/100/100/50
Nolva - 40/20/20/20

AI - Arimidex .5mg E3d

Would I need anything else while on cycle? Is this cycle even appropriate?

If you are planning on competing early next year and your next cycle doesnt start until Oct it makes little sense to do a cutting cycle. You will need to run a lean mass gaining cycle and prepare to cut in the new year.
P

[Praetorian]

A quick question, is diet coke/pepsi ok when on keto? I read mix opinions, some say yes but others say there is a hidden amount of aspartame in it.

In limited quantities its perfectly fine.
P

[steve_o]

If you are planning on competing early next year and your next cycle doesnt start until Oct it makes little sense to do a cutting cycle. You will need to run a lean mass gaining cycle and prepare to cut in the new year.
P

I am running a bulk cycle right now. I am doing Test E 300mg twice a week for 12 weeks and I am adding in Oral Turanabol on Monday Week 4 - 9. This is my first cycle. Do you think that I should do another cycle before I do a cutting cycle? Should I do a bulking cycle in the fall and then another cycle in the new year?

I could do the following in the fall for some lean gains:

Week 1 - 4 - Test Prop 100mg EOD
Week 1 - 12 Test E 600mg per week
Week 1 - 8 - Tren Ethanate 100mg EOD (Not sure when I would add this)
AI - Arimidex .5mg EOD

Clomid 100/100/100/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

Could I mix the Tren and Prop in one syringe?

Thanks again. I will look into some lean bulk and cutting cycles though.

[Praetorian]

I am running a bulk cycle right now. I am doing Test E 300mg twice a week for 12 weeks and I am adding in Oral Turanabol on Monday Week 4 - 9. This is my first cycle. Do you think that I should do another cycle before I do a cutting cycle? Should I do a bulking cycle in the fall and then another cycle in the new year?

I could do the following in the fall for some lean gains:

Week 1 - 4 - Test Prop 100mg EOD
Week 1 - 12 Test E 600mg per week
Week 1 - 8 - Tren Ethanate 100mg EOD (Not sure when I would add this)
AI - Arimidex .5mg EOD

Clomid 100/100/100/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

Could I mix the Tren and Prop in one syringe?

Thanks again. I will look into some lean bulk and cutting cycles though.

If you are competing in early 2011 then you need to put on some decent size...your fall cycle will be a lean gainer and your spring cycle will be cutting. Both cycles are actually very similar...test plus an anbolic ie test C plus deca or test E plus EQ or tren...prop is unnecessary on a lean gainer or cutting. The only other aas needed on a cutter would be a cosmetic hardener ie winstrol or masteron. An AI is only needed on a lean gainer is absolutely necessary...aromasin or femara are preferred over adex. Orals are unnecessary as well.
You should concentrate on building some decent size and come 2011 spring dieting for your show.
Your diet and training will make much more of a difference than the type of drugs you are doing...you need to realign your priorities.
P

[jamex]

Clen is not a stimulant and wont raise blood pressure...it will actually lower it. 20mcg daily is a very low dose so dont expect much in the way of sides or fat burning effects...raise the dose by 20mcg every two weeks until you hit 120mcg daily..then leave it there until the end of the diet....taper off.
P

I'm already halfway through my diet with 8 weeks or so to go. Targeting may 1st finish...not competing or anything just personal goals of sub 10% bf (currently around 12-13%). Since I don't have enough time to get up to 120mcg by increasing 20mcg every two weeks, could I instead get away with increasing 20mcg every week or what would you recommend? I may take the diet longer but may 1st will be a bit over the 16 week mark of keto.

No need to taper off while still dieting, I can do it once I'm finished keto, correct?

EDIT: Also when taking multiple doses should they be taken together at the same time in the morning or is it better to just take 20mcg every few hours with each meal perhaps.

[Praetorian]

I'm already halfway through my diet with 8 weeks or so to go. Targeting may 1st finish...not competing or anything just personal goals of sub 10% bf (currently around 12-13%). Since I don't have enough time to get up to 120mcg by increasing 20mcg every two weeks, could I instead get away with increasing 20mcg every week or what would you recommend? I may take the diet longer but may 1st will be a bit over the 16 week mark of keto.

No need to taper off while still dieting, I can do it once I'm finished keto, correct?

EDIT: Also when taking multiple doses should they be taken together at the same time in the morning or is it better to just take 20mcg every few hours with each meal perhaps.

Yes you could raise it by 20mcg every week until you hit 120mcg. No need to taper unti after the diet...correct. 16 weeks is long enough...no need to extend it....if you cant get lean enough in 16 weeks you are way too fat offseason...time to rethink the offseason plan.
P

[rickyboy36]

Hey Prae...

Say someone was coming off a low carb diet(eating about 150 grams a day) and wants to start bulking soon after.That person in essence should raise calories slowly as to not shock the body with an overload of food and let the body adapt for a certain amount of time.Ive heard 3 weeks is a good amount of time whereby the person would raise their food intake by 300 calories a day for one week,then another 300 the following week and so on.

What i want to know is say someone was calorie CYCLING and was taking in 2700 calories for 5 days,2200 for one day and then 4800 for the other and totaling 3000 cals a day average for that week.,could they just up their intake to 3300 cals daily the following week then 3600,then 3900 cals for the next 3 weeks without having to calorie cycle again?In other words,will the body adapt correctly by not storing fat seeing that person ate 2700 cals most of the time with a 2200cal day on top of that when switching to 3000 cals ED the following week?I mean will their body figure out that all in all its only a 300 calorie surplus a day from the week before?

Thanks!

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae...

Say someone was coming off a low carb diet(eating about 150 grams a day) and wants to start bulking soon after.That person in essence should raise calories slowly as to not shock the body with an overload of food and let the body adapt for a certain amount of time.Ive heard 3 weeks is a good amount of time whereby the person would raise their food intake by 300 calories a day for one week,then another 300 the following week and so on.

What i want to know is say someone was calorie CYCLING and was taking in 2700 calories for 5 days,2200 for one day and then 4800 for the other and totaling 3000 cals a day average for that week.,could they just up their intake to 3300 cals daily the following week then 3600,then 3900 cals for the next 3 weeks without having to calorie cycle again?In other words,will the body adapt correctly by not storing fat seeing that person ate 2700 cals most of the time with a 2200cal day on top of that when switching to 3000 cals ED the following week?I mean will their body figure out that all in all its only a 300 calorie surplus a day from the week before?

Thanks!

Even while dieting you are ingesting the necessary protein to support the muscles...some fat but mostly carbs are basically cycled...so calorie cycling is a misleading term...it should be called carb/fat cycling. Post diet whether or not the diet was keto or low fat low carb the body will still require some time to adjust to a higher carb intake. If carbs are added back in too quickly in too high of an amount then water retention/edema etc may occur. It is best to reintroduce carbs slowly and every other meal the first three weeks then every meal but approx 30-40g per meal the next three weeks. It takes about 6 weeks to fully readjust to regular carb intake. If the body cannot use all the carbs being eaten then yes they can be stored. To answer your question yes they could just up the calorie intake but if they are over maintenence fat storage will still happen. I dont really see the point in calorie cycling...you arent really dieting and yet you are depriving the body of essential nutrients which are required for muscle growth so you arent being efficient at growing either...in essence you are doing two thing quite badly. I would suggest taking in teh necessary protein and essential fats while minimizes carb intake to what is needed for your energy requirements. This will allow muscle to be built and yet minimize fat deposition. If you are dieitng then just drop the carbs...its quite simple really.
P

[rickyboy36]

Even while dieting you are ingesting the necessary protein to support the muscles...some fat but mostly carbs are basically cycled...so calorie cycling is a misleading term...it should be called carb/fat cycling. Post diet whether or not the diet was keto or low fat low carb the body will still require some time to adjust to a higher carb intake. If carbs are added back in too quickly in too high of an amount then water retention/edema etc may occur. It is best to reintroduce carbs slowly and every other meal the first three weeks then every meal but approx 30-40g per meal the next three weeks. It takes about 6 weeks to fully readjust to regular carb intake. If the body cannot use all the carbs being eaten then yes they can be stored. To answer your question yes they could just up the calorie intake but if they are over maintenence fat storage will still happen. I dont really see the point in calorie cycling...you arent really dieting and yet you are depriving the body of essential nutrients which are required for muscle growth so you arent being efficient at growing either...in essence you are doing two thing quite badly. I would suggest taking in teh necessary protein and essential fats while minimizes carb intake to what is needed for your energy requirements. This will allow muscle to be built and yet minimize fat deposition. If you are dieitng then just drop the carbs...its quite simple really.
P

Well actually at 3000 cals a day,he's in a calorie deprived state and he's losing 2-3lbs a week.So he's being efficient in terms of losing fat.I do agree keto would be more efficient,but he doesnt want to go that route.

So what you suggest is raising calories to maintenance(300 cals a day extra I would imagine would put him at maintenance ) and adding in carbs slowly.So if he was already consuming 200 carbs a day on his diet,he would raise the total to 250 first week,then 300 and 350 the weeks after?

[Praetorian]

Well actually at 3000 cals a day,he's in a calorie deprived state and he's losing 2-3lbs a week.So he's being efficient in terms of losing fat.I do agree keto would be more efficient,but he doesnt want to go that route.

So what you suggest is raising calories to maintenance(300 cals a day extra I would imagine would put him at maintenance ) and adding in carbs slowly.So if he was already consuming 200 carbs a day on his diet,he would raise the total to 250 first week,then 300 and 350 the weeks after?

What is his goal?
P

[rickyboy36]

What is his goal?
P

His goal is to make a transition from dieting to bulking without gaining fat

[Skyblob]

Prae, ive tried ur protocol for pct. Did hcg 10000ui in 2 weeks in conjuction with nolvadex at 40mg for 1st 2 weeks and 20mg for last 2 weeks.. It was my first cycle .. test deca winstrol and my god the libido crash was hard. My 2nd cycle, was Test/tren a EOD at 100mg each, was using 250ui HCG E3D till end of cycle.. very sucessful pct with nolvadex.. Now im on pct from test E 500mg EW and EQ 600 EW .. Used hcg e3d during and for pct is 40/40/20/20/20 nolva and 20/20/20/20 aromasin. Very good pct again. Not saying that ur protocol isnt working, but just wanted to share the fact that for me, I personally find that HCG during cycle is better.

[Praetorian]

Prae, ive tried ur protocol for pct. Did hcg 10000ui in 2 weeks in conjuction with nolvadex at 40mg for 1st 2 weeks and 20mg for last 2 weeks.. It was my first cycle .. test deca winstrol and my god the libido crash was hard. My 2nd cycle, was Test/tren a EOD at 100mg each, was using 250ui HCG E3D till end of cycle.. very sucessful pct with nolvadex.. Now im on pct from test E 500mg EW and EQ 600 EW .. Used hcg e3d during and for pct is 40/40/20/20/20 nolva and 20/20/20/20 aromasin. Very good pct again. Not saying that ur protocol isnt working, but just wanted to share the fact that for me, I personally find that HCG during cycle is better.

The PCT protocol i posted was for someone who may or may not have used hcg during the cycle...it also include clomid for three weeks (which i prefer) instead of nolvadex My protocol does not EXCLUDE HCG during the cycle...not sure where you got that impression. It may or may not be used in conjunction with HCG during...I posted many times that even with HCG during the cycle recovery may require more at the end. Also it is not as simple as running the protocol...timing is essential. Also your three cycle used different compounds...so you aren't comparing apples to apples.
Can you please post your blood work showing results after each protocol...that would be helpful.
P

[Praetorian]

His goal is to make a transition from dieting to bulking without gaining fat

You will always gain a bit of fat while bulking....or should we say lean mass gaining...otherwise muscle gains will not be optimized. The key is to control carb intake so fat gain is very limited.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

what is good amount of arimidex (thats all i have at the moment) for anti-estrogen. they are .5mg pills.

i just started taking 750mg cypionate and 500mg deca weekly. i am using it mostly for gyno related issues and keeping some bloat down. later on i will be adding anadrol for a synergestic effect. i was thinking .5mg eod or .5mg daily.



thanks.

[Skyblob]

Hey prae, I dont have any bloodworks to justify my recovery. Though, Im not trying to tell your protocol isn't good. I just wanted you to take a look on my protocol and maybe explain me why this happened. But you awnsered my question ;) thanks!

Ill give a try to ur pct protocol next cycle ! Also , why clomid over nolvadex? My supplier likes more clomid also..

[natenator]

Hey prae, I dont have any bloodworks to justify my recovery. Though, Im not trying to tell your protocol isn't good. I just wanted you to take a look on my protocol and maybe explain me why this happened. But you awnsered my question ;) thanks!

Ill give a try to ur pct protocol next cycle ! Also , why clomid over nolvadex? My supplier likes more clomid also..
so how do you know you've recovered?

Ignorance is bliss.

[Praetorian]

Hey prae, I dont have any bloodworks to justify my recovery. Though, Im not trying to tell your protocol isn't good. I just wanted you to take a look on my protocol and maybe explain me why this happened. But you awnsered my question ;) thanks!

Ill give a try to ur pct protocol next cycle ! Also , why clomid over nolvadex? My supplier likes more clomid also..

The reason I ask for blood work is because it is the only way you will know if you are recovered. Libido etc is not accurate sign of recovery nor does it prove an adequate level of endogenous testosterone. The protocol I posted was a proven technique at restarting HPTA and increasing endogenous test levels. That being said it is very subjective as to what cycle was run, age of the athlete, length of cycle etc. Sometimes the protocol needs to be run two maybe three times for complete recovery. Using hcg during the cycle is a good idea but again as I said it doesnt mean you will fully recover with clomid or nolvadex alone. Ive posted why clomid is preferred over nolvadex on other threads...basically they are very similar but with a few slight differences that I feel are in clomids favour.
P

[Praetorian]

p,

what is good amount of arimidex (thats all i have at the moment) for anti-estrogen. they are .5mg pills.

i just started taking 750mg cypionate and 500mg deca weekly. i am using it mostly for gyno related issues and keeping some bloat down. later on i will be adding anadrol for a synergestic effect. i was thinking .5mg eod or .5mg daily.



thanks.

.5mg EOD is fine...if necessary.
P

[_Ragnar_]

I just wanted to thank you Prae for all the time and knowledge you have put into this thread. Reading it though has pretty well answered every question I have wanted to ask.

[Praetorian]

I just wanted to thank you Prae for all the time and knowledge you have put into this thread. Reading it though has pretty well answered every question I have wanted to ask.

Glad its helped!
P ;o)

[Skyblob]

Guess its time for bloodworks soon. Thanks prae! Will follow ur protocol and gonna read ur post on clomid.

[steve_o]

Your diet and training will make much more of a difference than the type of drugs you are doing...you need to realign your priorities.
P

Thank you very much for the advice. I am going to do some research into A test E, Tren and Masteron cycle for the fall. I am not sure about dosage and duration so I will have to look into that.

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

instead of using .5mg arimidex eod for my cyp/deca cycle can i use aromasin instead as its better on lipids. is it as good as arimidex? the pills are 12.5mg each how much would i need daily?

cycle 750mg cyp with 500 deca

thx

[Praetorian]

hey p,

instead of using .5mg arimidex eod for my cyp/deca cycle can i use aromasin instead as its better on lipids. is it as good as arimidex? the pills are 12.5mg each how much would i need daily?

cycle 750mg cyp with 500 deca

thx

Definitely can...as good if not better...12.5mg ED is fine.
P

[Skyblob]

Hey prae, I want to do a cycle for this summer, to cut. I know that test only would be good with good diet and cardio . My budget is short since im student and I can't really afford alot of gear like older people who have their job etc. I'm not sure if I should run test/tren at 100mg EOD each or just some plain test at higher dosage. I hate my attitude on tren lol. I'm just asking you what would the best cycle to help me maintain my muscle and have a good cosmetic effect. Thanks bro!

[Praetorian]

Hey prae, I want to do a cycle for this summer, to cut. I know that test only would be good with good diet and cardio . My budget is short since im student and I can't really afford alot of gear like older people who have their job etc. I'm not sure if I should run test/tren at 100mg EOD each or just some plain test at higher dosage. I hate my attitude on tren lol. I'm just asking you what would the best cycle to help me maintain my muscle and have a good cosmetic effect. Thanks bro!

250mg long ester test twice weekly is all you need.
P

[tiramisu]

Hey Prae,

Time to ask your advice again....

Finishing week 11 of 16 using Palumbo template
Average weight loss of 2 pounds per week
Weight 228 -> 209 BF ~19% -> 12%

Target is ~200 @ 8%

Cardio 2 - 1 hours sessions 7 days a week.
DC program, 3 day split - m/t/th/fr

500mg test/75mg tren eod
75mcg clen

Weight loss is definitely slowing down. My morning weight was darn near constant all week. (quite unusual for me).

I'm not sure whether it's time to start restricting fat and do some pro/veg days or increase the cardio further (yuck), I will up the clen to 100 as it's easy and I'm developing a tolerance.

As always I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks,
T


(next year I'm definitely staying under 15%, 12 weeks of dieting seems to be far easier to keep going. Last year I stalled around the 12 week mark as well.)

[dremen]

Hey P you think it's ok to run aromasin an nolva EOD rather then ED during pct? A few aromasin studies that i've read on the net state that after a single 25mg dose of aromasin estrogen levels are still supressed after 4-5 days.

Thanks boss:)

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,

Time to ask your advice again....

Finishing week 11 of 16 using Palumbo template
Average weight loss of 2 pounds per week
Weight 228 -> 209 BF ~19% -> 12%

Target is ~200 @ 8%

Cardio 2 - 1 hours sessions 7 days a week.
DC program, 3 day split - m/t/th/fr

500mg test/75mg tren eod
75mcg clen

Weight loss is definitely slowing down. My morning weight was darn near constant all week. (quite unusual for me).

I'm not sure whether it's time to start restricting fat and do some pro/veg days or increase the cardio further (yuck), I will up the clen to 100 as it's easy and I'm developing a tolerance.

As always I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks,
T


(next year I'm definitely staying under 15%, 12 weeks of dieting seems to be far easier to keep going. Last year I stalled around the 12 week mark as well.)


While on the diet things like cardio, clen, T3 etc should all be gradually increased over time in small increments. This prevents adaptation by the body...that being said yes you can raise clen to 100mcg...then 120mcg two weeks later. I woudl leave teh cardio teh same and start incoporating pro/veg days...that will get the fat loss moving again.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P you think it's ok to run aromasin an nolva EOD rather then ED during pct? A few aromasin studies that i've read on the net state that after a single 25mg dose of aromasin estrogen levels are still supressed after 4-5 days.

Thanks boss:)

Yes you can run it EOD...it is dependant as well on the amount of hcg being used...the higher the dose the more estrogen will be converted from endo test.
I prefer to run 12.5mg ED along with the HCG. As you know too high a dose pushes etrogen too low and thats not good either.
P

[dremen]

Yes you can run it EOD...it is dependant as well on the amount of hcg being used...the higher the dose the more estrogen will be converted from endo test.
I prefer to run 12.5mg ED along with the HCG. As you know too high a dose pushes etrogen too low and thats not good either.
P

Ok, but i was not factoring in the use of HCG. So 12.5mgs of aromasin EOD along with 40-50mgs of nolvadex EOD for 4-6 weeks is ok in your opinion?

Thanks.

[Praetorian]

Ok, but i was not factoring in the use of HCG. So 12.5mgs of aromasin EOD along with 40-50mgs of nolvadex EOD for 4-6 weeks is ok in your opinion?

Thanks.

You dont need that much nolvadex....and either nolva or clomid should be used after the HCG is finished.
P

[L3]

Hey P,

I have a question regarding insulin secretion after protein administration. I was not able to find any studies done where insulin response was measured post protein&fat administration, but i did find this:

http://www.carbery.com/documents/21527%20Carbery%20Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf


CONCLUSION
In this study oral ingestion of 45g of whey protein was found to be an insulin secretagogue. The resultant hyperinsulinemia was glucose
independent and, as demonstrated by a significant mean increase in Cmax of 28%, was augmented by hydrolysis of the protein. These data
support the contention that the insulinotropic potency of hydrolysed whey protein may provide nutraceutical benefit in a clinical setting where
the glucose sensing capacity of the pancreatic β-cell is reduced i.e. type 2 diabetes (Manders et al., 2006).

What is your opinion on weather protein and fat administration (not in a Post-workout-setting) provides enough of an insulin response required for muscle growth, or at least muscle maintenance?


Also, in addition, is there a set forumla for figuring out when protein ingestion leads to glucogenesis, ie. 2gr/ 1 lb of LBM? Or is it person specific / trial and error sort of thing.

Thanks!!!

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

I have a question regarding insulin secretion after protein administration. I was not able to find any studies done where insulin response was measured post protein&fat administration, but i did find this:

http://www.carbery.com/documents/21527%20Carbery%20Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf


What is your opinion on weather protein and fat administration (not in a Post-workout-setting) provides enough of an insulin response required for muscle growth, or at least muscle maintenance?


Also, in addition, is there a set forumla for figuring out when protein ingestion leads to glucogenesis, ie. 2gr/ 1 lb of LBM? Or is it person specific / trial and error sort of thing.

Thanks!!!

For muscle growth you need insulin and that requires carbs...fat and protein will not be enough. For muscle maintenance you do not require insulin not in the amount you would get when ingesting carbs that is...that is why muscle is preserved on a keto diet. Keeping insulin secretion low will aid fat loss because glucagon will be raised. You are making things more complicated than is necessary...while dieting/offseason protein intake should be approx 1.5g per lb body weight. Too much protein is not good either...it will slow fat loss and muscle growth.
P

[L3]

So just to clarify, increasing protein will not compensate for lack of carbs?

Thanks!!!!

[Praetorian]

So just to clarify, increasing protein will not compensate for lack of carbs?

Thanks!!!!

No it wont...you need carbs in order to grow.
P

[natenator]

No it wont...you need carbs in order to grow.
P
sounds familiar... lol

[tiramisu]

Now if only someone could convince Di Pasquale.

[Ritch]

Now if only someone could convince Di Pasquale.

That guy has lost it... I`ve heard his recent radio shows about not eating carbs post workout. It`s like these people just have to shit in the face of what works for the majority of people just to get their name out in the public again. Nice try doc...

[Vitamin S]

hey P,

cycle is
750mg cyp weeks 1-12
550 deca weeks 1-10
100mg drol weeks 5-10


normally i use arimidex for ai, but this time going with aromasin since it better on lipids (will be using 25mg of aromasin daily for first 2 weeks and eod after that).

questions are

1. will aromasin also be better on sex drive?
2. is that enough test to counter act any deca issues one gets in terms of sex drive (i've ran deca in the past with test and can't remmeber but i think i was okay)
3. can i continue to run aromasin for pct alongside hcg and nolvadex or will i have to switch to arimidex or letro?
4. do u belive in front loading? i am not going to and wait till week 5 to use drol for a better syngerstic effect. but would see better gains if i front load with say prop from week 1-4?

thanks,

[Rhinobolt10]

Umm.. I dunno if this sounds retarded, but is incline benching going to bulid up my upper chest?

I ask as I've heard there's no such thing as upper and lower chest muscles and such, but it was so long ago i can't really remember, and now I'm starting to care about that kinda stuff more and more. I'm just lately trying to build up what I consider weak point... if I every get a chance I'll post a pick to figure out what my weak spots actually are.. thanks in advance.

[Praetorian]

hey P,

cycle is
750mg cyp weeks 1-12
550 deca weeks 1-10
100mg drol weeks 5-10


normally i use arimidex for ai, but this time going with aromasin since it better on lipids (will be using 25mg of aromasin daily for first 2 weeks and eod after that).

questions are

1. will aromasin also be better on sex drive? ALL AI'S REDUCE ESTROGEN...IF IT IS REDUCED TOO LOW SEX DRIVE WILL SUFFER
2. is that enough test to counter act any deca issues one gets in terms of sex drive (i've ran deca in the past with test and can't remmeber but i think i was okay) THAT IS INDIVIDUALISTIC..YOU WONT KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY
3. can i continue to run aromasin for pct alongside hcg and nolvadex or will i have to switch to arimidex or letro? YES THATS FINE NO NEED TO SWTICH
4. do u belive in front loading? i am not going to and wait till week 5 to use drol for a better syngerstic effect. but would see better gains if i front load with say prop from week 1-4?NO I DONT...IF YOU WANTED FASTER GAIN USE SOME PROP THE FIRST FEW WEEKS THEN DROP IT

thanks,


P

[Praetorian]

Umm.. I dunno if this sounds retarded, but is incline benching going to bulid up my upper chest?

I ask as I've heard there's no such thing as upper and lower chest muscles and such, but it was so long ago i can't really remember, and now I'm starting to care about that kinda stuff more and more. I'm just lately trying to build up what I consider weak point... if I every get a chance I'll post a pick to figure out what my weak spots actually are.. thanks in advance.

Actually a good question...technically the answer is no. Doing upper chest movements as we know them...ie incline bench does stress the upper part of the chest a bit more...but the entire muscle will contract thus the best way to build upper chest is to build the entire chest more. More overall chest development means more upper chest development. Dorian spoke about this in his seminars recently and youll get a variety of answer from chiros to physio's to docs etc. The fact of the matter is a muscle either contracts or it doesnt. Doing inclines will build upper chest based on the fact that the entire chest is being built as well.
FYI...the inclice should also be very low....ie around 20-25% is ideal. Most incline press benches in gyms today are much too high to hit the upper chest effectively and put tremendous amount of stress on the front delts. The higher the incline equals more delts the lower the incline equals more chest.
P

[natenator]

Actually a good question...technically the answer is no. Doing upper chest movements as we know them...ie incline bench does stress the upper part of the chest a bit more...but the entire muscle will contract thus the best way to build upper chest is to build the entire chest more. More overall chest development means more upper chest development. Dorian spoke about this in his seminars recently and youll get a variety of answer from chiros to physio's to docs etc. The fact of the matter is a muscle either contracts or it doesnt. Doing inclines will build upper chest based on the fact that the entire chest is being built as well.
FYI...the inclice should also be very low....ie around 20-25% is ideal. Most incline press benches in gyms today are much too high to hit the upper chest effectively and put tremendous amount of stress on the front delts. The higher the incline equals more delts the lower the incline equals more chest.
P
So here's question to you then...

If most incline benches in gyms don't have the ability to change to the ideal height of 20-25% then why do you recommend incline BB bench?

Would it not be better to do Incline DB bench or do Inclines on a smith where you can use an adjustable bench to get that 20-25% that you mentioned?

[nii]

Dorian spoke about this in his seminars recently and youll get a variety of answer from chiros to physio's to docs etc.

Those seminars were very informative. There was one thing that surprised me that i didnt know, he never squatted during his prof bb career. Stuck to hack squats and leg press. He mentioned some things that really struck a chord. Firstly when squating, i take a rather wide stance to keep my knees in line with my ankles when my belly would usually hit my thighs. He mentioned too wide a stance and your not hitting your outer quads. He also stated that during squats your back will give out well before your quads have reached failure, another reason to hit hack squats and leg press to reach failure. This makes a lot of sense to me because iv experienced this as well. Im really debating on whether i should replace bb squats with hacks. How did you like his leg seminar as a whole?

[steve_d]

He also stated that during squats your back will give out well before your quads have reached failure, another reason to hit hack squats and leg press to reach failure.

I don't think that's necessarily the case for everone. What if you have a strong back and weak legs?

[Praetorian]

So here's question to you then...

If most incline benches in gyms don't have the ability to change to the ideal height of 20-25% then why do you recommend incline BB bench?

Would it not be better to do Incline DB bench or do Inclines on a smith where you can use an adjustable bench to get that 20-25% that you mentioned?

What i normally recommend and do myself is to put a plate or two under the front part of the incline bench to raise it up if possible. This usually drops the angle enough to remove the delts out of the movement as much as possible. I dont like the smith machine excpet for rehab exercises or lighter weights doing higher reps...ie squats where the back fails before the quads...mostly because it forces you into an unnatural position...dumbells are ok but tend to get dangerous when you go over the 130-140 mark. If clients complain of shoulder issues while doing inclines the reason is usually too steep an angle.
It all depends on the bench and if you can adjust it without making it unsteady.
P

[Praetorian]

Those seminars were very informative. There was one thing that surprised me that i didnt know, he never squatted during his prof bb career. Stuck to hack squats and leg press. He mentioned some things that really struck a chord. Firstly when squating, i take a rather wide stance to keep my knees in line with my ankles when my belly would usually hit my thighs. He mentioned too wide a stance and your not hitting your outer quads. He also stated that during squats your back will give out well before your quads have reached failure, another reason to hit hack squats and leg press to reach failure. This makes a lot of sense to me because iv experienced this as well. Im really debating on whether i should replace bb squats with hacks. How did you like his leg seminar as a whole?

Ive seen Dorian speak before and one of my good friends travelled with him during his seminars and publicity tour...Dorian actually introduced my friend to Arnold in Colombus at the AC. The thing about Dorian is he is straight forward...no BS no gimmicks just good ol' hard work and the basics. Many people have a hard time dealing with that because they want secrets, magic workouts, super cycles etc they just don't exist....genetics make or break you....and couple that with tremendous drive and heart and you have a 6 time Mr O.
His seminars are very informative and to the point. Dorian acually did squats early in his career but stopped when the weight got heavy enough that it became apparent hs leverages werent the best for optimum development. Dorian did get tremendous leg development without squats....but he has fantastic genetics...most guys wont be able to do that without squats.
P

[Praetorian]

I don't think that's necessarily the case for everone. What if you have a strong back and weak legs?

It depends on your leverages...Tom Platz could squat all day and his back would never give out...hes almost upright while squatting.
P

[tiramisu]

I'm the reverse right now. Heavy squatting is definitely a back exercise for me. Still doing them but front squats and leg press are hitting my quads more effectively this month.

[kawikaratekid]

No it wont...you need carbs in order to grow.
P

Do pros use insulin while cutting so they can still increase muscle size?

[kawikaratekid]

I don't think that's necessarily the case for everone. What if you have a strong back and weak legs?

Wouldn't you benefit more from doing leg presses and hack squats than?

[steve_d]

^If your legs don't give out first, then what is the argument that leg presses are better? I can accept his reasoning, but if you don't fall into that category, then you cant use that reasoning to say leg presses are more beneficial..

My point was that if your back was strong, you're legs would give out before you're back on squats... therefore, in that logic, squats are just as good. (I think they're better).

But obviously, you would benefit from doing all 3. I am not saying anyone here fits under that category, but it seems as though there are so many people at my gym looking for any excuse not to squat, and to do leg presses or extensions instead.

everyone should squat.

Sorry, I know this isn't my thread, I just had to get it out.

[JacktheThriller]

i think that is what Prae was getting at the hacks and leg press were an alternative for Dorian an experienced competitor, who knew his body very well, certainly mr blood and guts wasnt avoiding squats because he found it uncomfortable. Certainly for the average trainer squat is key, dropping the poundage and maintaining proper form to build up that strength in your back is going to overall be way better than coming up with a learned helplessness approach to doing squats, "MY BACKS NOT STRONG ENOUGH! :( Yea its not and now that you neglect this fundemental exercise it ALWAYS WILL BE.

[Praetorian]

^If your legs don't give out first, then what is the argument that leg presses are better? I can accept his reasoning, but if you don't fall into that category, then you cant use that reasoning to say leg presses are more beneficial..

My point was that if your back was strong, you're legs would give out before you're back on squats... therefore, in that logic, squats are just as good. (I think they're better).

But obviously, you would benefit from doing all 3. I am not saying anyone here fits under that category, but it seems as though there are so many people at my gym looking for any excuse not to squat, and to do leg presses or extensions instead.

everyone should squat.

Sorry, I know this isn't my thread, I just had to get it out.

For beginners, intermediates and 90% of people you are 100% correct...not squatting is just an excuse. Trying to compare regular people in the gym to Dorian is far fetched at best. His point being once you hit a certain point...leverages determine optimum performance...again however for most people squatting will still rule.
P

[Praetorian]

i think that is what Prae was getting at the hacks and leg press were an alternative for Dorian an experienced competitor, who knew his body very well, certainly mr blood and guts wasnt avoiding squats because he found it uncomfortable. Certainly for the average trainer squat is key, dropping the poundage and maintaining proper form to build up that strength in your back is going to overall be way better than coming up with a learned helplessness approach to doing squats, "MY BACKS NOT STRONG ENOUGH! :( Yea its not and now that you neglect this fundemental exercise it ALWAYS WILL BE.

True,
P

[dremen]

Praetorian - Have you ever writen a book, cause if not you should bro.....like seriously....lol

Also I always wondered what your name stood for so I looked it up, cool bro:)

"Praetorian Guard, a special force of skilled and celebrated troops serving as the personal guard of Roman Emperors"

^Is that it P?

[Praetorian]

Praetorian - Have you ever writen a book, cause if not you should bro.....like seriously....lol

Also I always wondered what your name stood for so I looked it up, cool bro:)

"Praetorian Guard, a special force of skilled and celebrated troops serving as the personal guard of Roman Emperors"

^Is that it P?

I just may one day when i have more time.
Yep that is it!
P

[JacktheThriller]

hey P just wondering if clen is illegal and if it isn't then where would one pick some up is this a prescription drug?

[dremen]

I just may one day when i have more time.
Yep that is it!
P

That's a book I would pay good cash for :)

[dremen]

Praetorian, does drinking milk increase testosterone and/or gh production?

Just wondering boss.

[Praetorian]

hey P just wondering if clen is illegal and if it isn't then where would one pick some up is this a prescription drug?

Clen is prescription only ...normally prescribed for asthma patients...also prescribed for veterinary purposes.
P

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, does drinking milk increase testosterone and/or gh production?

Just wondering boss.

Not to any significant extent no.
P

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

how important is supplementing with lecuine for a bodybuilder?

[Praetorian]

hey p,

how important is supplementing with lecuine for a bodybuilder?

Unnecessary...you get plenty from the food you eat especially if you are taking a whey isolate.
P

[tiramisu]

Is there any justification for consuming BCAA's when consuming 1.5-2.0 grams of protein a day, including WPI?

It seems like there is a real push on with this and to me it's feeling like it's about profit margin rather than effecti.

[Praetorian]

Is there any justification for consuming BCAA's when consuming 1.5-2.0 grams of protein a day, including WPI?

It seems like there is a real push on with this and to me it's feeling like it's about profit margin rather than effecti.

Its a huge marketing ploy...you get plenty of bcaa's from from protein especially WPI.
P

[pcruiser73]

Prae, I am going to take 1 week off at the middle of my 16 week bulk cycle. During this week is it best to just stay out of the gym all together or should I go in and do very light dumbell and cable stuff?
Thanks

[Praetorian]

Prae, I am going to take 1 week off at the middle of my 16 week bulk cycle. During this week is it best to just stay out of the gym all together or should I go in and do very light dumbell and cable stuff?
Thanks

Why would you take a week off during the cycle...why not wait until after the cycle?
P

[pcruiser73]

Why would you take a week off during the cycle...why not wait until after the cycle?
P

The gains in strength are going great, size is coming on nicely, however I feel as though my body needs the rest to give my joints, ligaments and tendons a chance to catch up so to speak. I am just comming back from a tendon injury that had me out for 18 months so I am a little gun shy to push it too far too soon. Whatya think, am i just wimping out?

[Vitamin S]

p,

is there any exercise i can do to increase lower bicep peak "like more of a drop" i was told to do one arm dumbell preacher curls and twist or superspinate the wrist as to lengthen the bicep and place greater stress on it.

thx

[Praetorian]

The gains in strength are going great, size is coming on nicely, however I feel as though my body needs the rest to give my joints, ligaments and tendons a chance to catch up so to speak. I am just comming back from a tendon injury that had me out for 18 months so I am a little gun shy to push it too far too soon. Whatya think, am i just wimping out?

If you are worried about a tendon issue you shouldnt have started a cycle. A tendon should be fully healed in 12 weeks....18 months is more than enough for it to be 100%...there should be no reason to baby it now. When you start a cycle you plan to run it for optimum gains...taking time off during a cycle is wasting time and aas and money. Time off after the cycle is when you rest the body and prepare for the next one...not during.
P

[Praetorian]

p,

is there any exercise i can do to increase lower bicep peak "like more of a drop" i was told to do one arm dumbell preacher curls and twist or superspinate the wrist as to lengthen the bicep and place greater stress on it.

thx

You cannot lengthen a muscle period....bicep or otherwise. The muscle has an origin and an insertion...these do not change. So in order to lengthen a muscle you would have to have surgery. The idea of creating more of a peak is a fallacy as well....you are genetically set in the origin and insertion points and you can create more muscle mass which may result in the appearance of a higher peak but there is nothing you can do to actually create more peak...that again would involve shortening the muscle via the insertion point...again surgery would be necessary. It is best to incorporate a variety of exercises to stress the muscle from different angles for optimum development.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

saw the doc today and she prescribed me Minocycline Hcl 100mg, 1 tab twice daily (to help clear some acne on my back)

is it alright to take aas with this and do you know if it works well?.......I asked her about apo/amoxi clav 500-125mg but that was a no go

Thanks

Minocycline is in the class of Tetracyclines...protein synthesis inhibition is a side effect as well as liver toxicity. If you were to run aas orals should be avoided at all costs and regular blood work should be done. Adequate protein intake would be very important.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

is there certain compounds such as tren or eq i heard that increase size of veins or give you more veins or is that a combo of genetics and leaness?

thx

[Praetorian]

p,

is there certain compounds such as tren or eq i heard that increase size of veins or give you more veins or is that a combo of genetics and leaness?

thx

The number and and size of arteries (from the heart) and veins (to the heart) are determined genetically. You cannot change this...however by increasing blood pressure the appearance can change and thus a more vascular look achieved. All aas increase RBC count (some more than others) in essence increasing the amount of blood carried and blood pressure to some degree. EQ and Anadrol being two of the more common ones. To achieve a vascular look however you must get your bodyfat levels down to a very low percentage....the lower your BF the more vascular you will appear. Couple this with an increase in blood pressure (sodium) and vacularity will be enhanced greatly.
P

[tiramisu]

... keeping with the hype/not hype line

Why are so many of the internet guru's adamant about lean bulking and gaining muscle while dieting?

The first seems pretty unoptimal and the second close to physiologically impossible yet you see xmany jumping up and down all over the forums defending and selling this idea. (I've noticed these same gurus gain 40-50 pounds in the off season but that's obviously not relevant)

Am I just crazy?

[natenator]

... keeping with the hype/not hype line

Why are so many of the internet guru's adamant about lean bulking and gaining muscle while dieting?

The first seems pretty unoptimal and the second close to physiologically impossible yet you see xmany jumping up and down all over the forums defending and selling this idea. (I've noticed these same gurus gain 40-50 pounds in the off season but that's obviously not relevant)

Am I just crazy?
I call it delusional lol

[Praetorian]

... keeping with the hype/not hype line

Why are so many of the internet guru's adamant about lean bulking and gaining muscle while dieting?

The first seems pretty unoptimal and the second close to physiologically impossible yet you see xmany jumping up and down all over the forums defending and selling this idea. (I've noticed these same gurus gain 40-50 pounds in the off season but that's obviously not relevant)

Am I just crazy?

Extraordinary sells...just like sensationalizing workout routines, or super cycles etc....the media has been doing this for hundreds of years to sell newspapers, magazines, TV etc...now it is being used to sell training competition prep and the like.
Fancy names and scientific jargon is used to complicate the most simple things. You can see this everyday in gyms across North America...balancing on a ball with one leg, doing dumbbell presses with one hand while holding a kettle bell in the other...wow great workout...results=zero or injury.
People love to think they are getting some miracle workout, training program, cycle, etc for the thousands they paid. If it is so complicated it must be good right?
The plain and simple truth is that if you understand how the human body works in regards to macro nutrients, training, recovery, aas, etc then by working with the body to achieve your goals is actually very simplistic.
The problem then becomes convicing people that this actually works...how can it be so simple...there must be something more right??
The key here being that it takes quite a long time to fully understand how these variables work when you relate them all together because you cannot just read a medical journal or nutrition manual to learn...you need to experience these things on your own and learn how they interact and be able to make intelligent changes to achieve the desired results. All of this cannot happen unless you have a decent level of knowledge of the concepts of anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, pharmaceuticals, elite level training styles, nutrition, mental concepts ie visualization etc
The formula is simple...the variable interactions make it complicated.
P

[z83]

^^excellent post

I personaly find the more I learn, the less I know...

[gingerbreadman]

Praetorian

I've searched this thread and have a question regarding days of prep. I think you suggest keeping water high with moderate/high sodium up to day before show then cut sodium except that naturally occurring in foods. For the non-diretic using bodybuilder, exactly how would the water go last two days before and day of show. Also, assuming you're going to recommend cutting water at some point day before, what about junk loading? I've heard about eating burgers, fries, brownies, nuts ice cream chocolate bars - what's the limit on this? I'm guessing all is ok if water is shut off and you don't be an absolute pig and distend your belly?

Oh, and question 3, if water is cut day before and you're approaching the night portion of the show (approaching up to 24+hrs no water) would drinking a bottle of gatorade mixed with water help you complete the final posing in the show or would it bloat you up?

Thanks

[tiramisu]

What I'm learning is when you aren't particularily gifted a long slow grind is the best case scenario. Assuming you can manage to eat properly and train effectively, sticktoitiveness seems to be about the most important element. If you can grind it out consistently for about 5 years you should be able to look pretty average.

[Talo]

Hey P,

saw the doc today and she prescribed me Minocycline Hcl 100mg, 1 tab twice daily (to help clear some acne on my back)

is it alright to take aas with this and do you know if it works well?.......I asked her about apo/amoxi clav 500-125mg but that was a no go

Thanks


Don't you think you should have told your Dr. that you were running AAS or were going to ?

[Praetorian]

Praetorian

I've searched this thread and have a question regarding days of prep. I think you suggest keeping water high with moderate/high sodium up to day before show then cut sodium except that naturally occurring in foods. For the non-diretic using bodybuilder, exactly how would the water go last two days before and day of show. Also, assuming you're going to recommend cutting water at some point day before, what about junk loading? I've heard about eating burgers, fries, brownies, nuts ice cream chocolate bars - what's the limit on this? I'm guessing all is ok if water is shut off and you don't be an absolute pig and distend your belly?

Oh, and question 3, if water is cut day before and you're approaching the night portion of the show (approaching up to 24+hrs no water) would drinking a bottle of gatorade mixed with water help you complete the final posing in the show or would it bloat you up?

Thanks

Water is kept high until Friday usually late afternoon or evening depending on the client...sodium is reduced to what is naturally occuring in foods only for Friday. NO junk loading...you have just dieted for 16 weeks are you willing to blow the entire show by loading up on junk food? or would you rather eat your normal meals and not worry about losing your sharpness. Sugars like gatorade can tend to bloat people as well as smooth some out...water is all you need..
For exact water/sodium/carb loading etc you can hire me to assist you with that.
P

[Praetorian]

What I'm learning is when you aren't particularily gifted a long slow grind is the best case scenario. Assuming you can manage to eat properly and train effectively, sticktoitiveness seems to be about the most important element. If you can grind it out consistently for about 5 years you should be able to look pretty average.

Yep its the only scenario...consistent training, eating, recovery is what will move you ahead of everyone else...because everyone else is "getting back into it" or "playing soccer for the summer" or "training for MMA for a bit" etc...while all this goes on the tortoise keeps putting on muscle slowly but surely.
Then everyone wakes up one day and says ....hmmm theonly reason he looks like that is because hes doing 3g of test weekly or some dumbass comment like that.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

i have a sitation where last year i got relaly lean and did my pct and got off everything and trained naturally for a while only to stop training due work related and family probs the usual shit that happesn in life (excueses yes if u wanna clall it sure) question is i am back on gear and doing a bulker cycle but in the time i was off i put on osome body fat. now im scared that by eating more and bulking i will contineu to add some more body fat whcih is not what i want i shoul've kept it at bay to begin with. is there anyway i can still put on size and strength and not increase my waist size or is that not possible. i am gonna do cardio in morning to rev metabolism and weights in the evening and eat 5-6 meals of protein fats and carbs.

weighting 245lbs now will be eating 300g protein/200 carbs/and 100 fats, carbs will be with breakfast and post workout only.

thx

[gingerbreadman]

Water is kept high until Friday usually late afternoon or evening depending on the client...sodium is reduced to what is naturally occuring in foods only for Friday. NO junk loading...you have just dieted for 16 weeks are you willing to blow the entire show by loading up on junk food? or would you rather eat your normal meals and not worry about losing your sharpness. Sugars like gatorade can tend to bloat people as well as smooth some out...water is all you need..
For exact water/sodium/carb loading etc you can hire me to assist you with that.
P

Ahhh I gotcha, thanks P.

[theslime]

Hi bro, I already posted this in the HRT forum but really wanted your advice. Ive been on for the most part of 5 years now. After my last cycle which ended 5 weeks ago, I did what my contest prep guy told me which was 1000 ius hcg every day for 3 weeks. Problem is I felt no difference whatsoever, my sex drive didnt come back. Two weeks after stopping hcg, Im back on cycle because Im preparing for my next contest and Im afraid when I go off for real (after the nationals probably), Ill need a big dose of hcg to get things going again. What would you do? HRT?

[Praetorian]

Hi bro, I already posted this in the HRT forum but really wanted your advice. Ive been on for the most part of 5 years now. After my last cycle which ended 5 weeks ago, I did what my contest prep guy told me which was 1000 ius hcg every day for 3 weeks. Problem is I felt no difference whatsoever, my sex drive didnt come back. Two weeks after stopping hcg, Im back on cycle because Im preparing for my next contest and Im afraid when I go off for real (after the nationals probably), Ill need a big dose of hcg to get things going again. What would you do? HRT?

I just posted a reply in the HRT forum.
P

[Praetorian]

p,

i have a sitation where last year i got relaly lean and did my pct and got off everything and trained naturally for a while only to stop training due work related and family probs the usual shit that happesn in life (excueses yes if u wanna clall it sure) question is i am back on gear and doing a bulker cycle but in the time i was off i put on osome body fat. now im scared that by eating more and bulking i will contineu to add some more body fat whcih is not what i want i shoul've kept it at bay to begin with. is there anyway i can still put on size and strength and not increase my waist size or is that not possible. i am gonna do cardio in morning to rev metabolism and weights in the evening and eat 5-6 meals of protein fats and carbs.

weighting 245lbs now will be eating 300g protein/200 carbs/and 100 fats, carbs will be with breakfast and post workout only.

thx

Gaining muscle equals adding some fat yes...dieting equals losing fat and maintaining muscle...choose the one you want and push forward without regret...you cannot do both.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

since starting test cyp and deca cycle i am seeing more stomach bloat where as minimal bloat elsewhere? could this be the deca?? or even the aromasin whcih i doubt?

or do u think its just bloating / gas from diet and protein

thx

[Praetorian]

p,

since starting test cyp and deca cycle i am seeing more stomach bloat where as minimal bloat elsewhere? could this be the deca?? or even the aromasin whcih i doubt?

or do u think its just bloating / gas from diet and protein

thx

Its diet.
P

[bigtavi8]

P what is your opinion on tanning for shows. I personally have 10 tans left until my show and i hate the shit. Boring monotonous hot waste of time. Im to poor to run melaotan and i will use protan 2 coats as a base then get SS to spray me up liek the pros. Can i skip all this EOD tanning bs and focus on training or is it imperative i tan often.

[Chaner]

Hey P,

I was wondering if you can help me out. I currently taking 40 mg of Anavar with 3 IU of HGH everyday. I was told that I should be taking 500 mg/w of Test E or C. My only concern was when I did my first cycle of Sust. 250 I broke out pretty bad so I wanted to avoid Test. But I was told that the Var will stop my natural test. production. So do you have any advise?? Thanks!!

[Praetorian]

P what is your opinion on tanning for shows. I personally have 10 tans left until my show and i hate the shit. Boring monotonous hot waste of time. Im to poor to run melaotan and i will use protan 2 coats as a base then get SS to spray me up liek the pros. Can i skip all this EOD tanning bs and focus on training or is it imperative i tan often.

I prefer a base tan for best colour...I use melanotan for a few weeks while tanning to shorten the duration and deepen the colour..then I just maintain.
Some can get away without tanning but i prefer at least some natural colour.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

I was wondering if you can help me out. I currently taking 40 mg of Anavar with 3 IU of HGH everyday. I was told that I should be taking 500 mg/w of Test E or C. My only concern was when I did my first cycle of Sust. 250 I broke out pretty bad so I wanted to avoid Test. But I was told that the Var will stop my natural test. production. So do you have any advise?? Thanks!!

If you are running GH offseason to gain muscle youll need more of an androgen than var for optimal results...test is ideal. Also at 40 mg daily of var depending on the individual you can start feeling like crap if it pushes your endogenous test too low. I would always run test as a base.
P

[jamex]

Hi P,

I've got around 5 weeks left of keto and things are progressing well. I've started to introduce alternating pro\veg days and cardio is 1:30-2:00hrs depending on the day. I've read that a lot of people pull fat out completely towards the end of the diet.

How long can\should you do that for...last week only? What keeps you in ketosis at that point instead of reverting to glyconeogenesis?

Thanks.

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

I've got around 5 weeks left of keto and things are progressing well. I've started to introduce alternating pro\veg days and cardio is 1:30-2:00hrs depending on the day. I've read that a lot of people pull fat out completely towards the end of the diet.

How long can\should you do that for...last week only? What keeps you in ketosis at that point instead of reverting to glyconeogenesis?

Thanks.

Depending on condition you can go 4-5 days without fats. Remeber EFA's can be stored bythe body...protein cannot. Body fat will keep you in ketosis along with EFA's that you continue to take while on pro/veg ie fish oil caps.
P

[Chaner]

Hi P,

Thanks for the reply. So I have about 2 weeks left of VAR. How do I start to incorporate the Test into my cycle?? Also how much Test is needed to go with the HGH that I am taking?? Is 500 mg/week good enough??

Also because I did VAR in the beginnng is it neccesary for me to front load the Test?? Thanks for you help again in advance.

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

Thanks for the reply. So I have about 2 weeks left of VAR. How do I start to incorporate the Test into my cycle?? Also how much Test is needed to go with the HGH that I am taking?? Is 500 mg/week good enough??

Also because I did VAR in the beginnng is it neccesary for me to front load the Test?? Thanks for you help again in advance.

You can start the test anytime or run PCT after the var and then start your next cycle with test. If you are not an advanced BB 500mg a week should be fine...more advanced BB would use 750 to 1000mg weekly. Front loading is not necessary.
P

[rickyboy36]

Hey Prae,I have a friend who developed gyno a couple of years ago due to steroids and has been stuck with it for a while now.He tried Nolvadex at 60mgs a day(actually when he did his PCT) and he felt a tiny bit of it go away,but still has a lot.Do you have a protocol of some sort that could completely eliminate his gyno for good?

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,I have a friend who developed gyno a couple of years ago due to steroids and has been stuck with it for a while now.He tried Nolvadex at 60mgs a day(actually when he did his PCT) and he felt a tiny bit of it go away,but still has a lot.Do you have a protocol of some sort that could completely eliminate his gyno for good?

Surgery is the only protocol that will eliminate gyno for good...the glands need to be removed. Everything else is at best an attempt at keeping it under control only. While on cycle an AI along with nolvadex is his best option. Ive heard some take halotestin crush the tabs into powder and mix with DMSO...then rub the mixture onto the affected area....not sure if that works but it may be worth a try.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

the on-going thread concerning Cissus Quadrangularis got me doing a lot of research on it. Seems like everyone's bragging it up as the miracle powder for joint support, fat loss, antioxidants, libido, the works... what's your thoughts on it and on dosage? Alright for a year 'round?

Thread > http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16431

Thanks!

Never tried it...from what Ive seen mostly anecdotal evidence...supposedly has analgesic properties which helps with joint pain. As or a cure all for everythign else...i doubt it.
P

[Hugheser]

Wow some great advice on this board!

I was wondering if you could help me out?

I am now on a keto diet trying to lose that last couple pounds for the show in 18 days.

Stats:
201lbs
6'3
23yr
Natty
BF%?

Meal Plan: 2100cal, 350g pro, Trace Carbs from Veggies and 60g fat

On day 3 now and still have a good pump and don't feel like shit like earlier when I tried it out. I am not carb sensitive and no matter how many I eat the day before as long as I have about 50g preworkout I look great after a pump up.

I was wondering how the carb up works on Keto Diet since there is no carb depletion needed since all the glycogen is gone from the muscles and liver already.

Would you just start the carb up on the usual Wed, or Thursday? Getting about 50g of carbs a meal 6X a day without water 60mins prior or 60mins after meal?

Since I am now in keto and have a little bit of time should I try a shorter plan similar to the above and see how I look the next day?

Thanks!

-Hugheser

[bossman_1986]

what do you think of this fst-7 training program?

[Praetorian]

Wow some great advice on this board!

I was wondering if you could help me out?

I am now on a keto diet trying to lose that last couple pounds for the show in 18 days.

Stats:
201lbs
6'3
23yr
Natty
BF%?

Meal Plan: 2100cal, 350g pro, Trace Carbs from Veggies and 60g fat

On day 3 now and still have a good pump and don't feel like shit like earlier when I tried it out. I am not carb sensitive and no matter how many I eat the day before as long as I have about 50g preworkout I look great after a pump up.

I was wondering how the carb up works on Keto Diet since there is no carb depletion needed since all the glycogen is gone from the muscles and liver already.

Would you just start the carb up on the usual Wed, or Thursday? Getting about 50g of carbs a meal 6X a day without water 60mins prior or 60mins after meal?

Since I am now in keto and have a little bit of time should I try a shorter plan similar to the above and see how I look the next day?

Thanks!

-Hugheser

Generally unless you are a superheavy weight carb up is Thursday and Friday. You need water to carb up...doesnt work without it. The amount is dependant on the individual...30g is usually sufficient per meal.
P

[Praetorian]

what do you think of this fst-7 training program?

Fancy name for a few pump sets...its been used by BB for years...nothing new except the name.
P

[tiramisu]

Fancy name for a few pump sets...its been used by BB for years...nothing new except the name.
P

... so do you think a few pump sets at the end of a productive workout are constructive or just a fun way to look at yourself in the mirror?

[Shaun73]

hey Prae i recently developed a case of gyno over the past month or so while on cycle. Im currently dieting for a show now the gyno is not too noticable however my nipples look a little pointy when im not flexing. I was wondering as i get leaner will it be less or more noticable?

There is some hard glandular tissue under my nipple. I know once the tissue is formed its permenant. I am going to have surgery after to get it removed. Once i have the surgery will i ever have to worry about it again?

thanks

[Hugheser]

Generally unless you are a superheavy weight carb up is Thursday and Friday. You need water to carb up...doesnt work without it. The amount is dependant on the individual...30g is usually sufficient per meal.
P

Awesome!

My diet is as follows right now.

6:00am
ECA Stack
Cardio

6:45am
35g Whey (Zero Carb, Zero Fat)
BCAA's, EFA's, Multi, Chromium Picolinate

8:00am
2 Whole Eggs
6 Egg Whites
4 Strips Chicken Bacon
Veggies

11:00am
ECA Stack
70g Whey (Zero Carb, Zero Fat)
1 Tbsp Almond Butter

2:00pm
EFA's, Multi, CoQ10
10oz Chicken Breast
1oz Walnuts
10 Spears Asparagus

4:00pm
ECA, Argine, Beta Alanine, Creatine, 1500mg Tribulus
TRAIN + 30mins PWO Cardio

5:30pm
Creatine
70g Whey (Zero Carbs, Zero Fat)
BCAA's

8:00pm
EFA's, Multi.
Steak, Lean Ground Beef, or Eggs
2 Cups Broccoli

10:00pm
24g Casein

10:30pm
Asleep

2100 Calories, 350g Pro, Trace Carbs, 70g Fat.

So Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Maintain Calories and Protein only?

And Thursday, Friday. Reintroduce Fats and Carbs and Calories to above maintenance or adjust lower protein to keep calories at maintenance?

Thanks!

[Praetorian]

... so do you think a few pump sets at the end of a productive workout are constructive or just a fun way to look at yourself in the mirror?

I think it can help as long as you dont overdo it.
P

[Praetorian]

Awesome!

My diet is as follows right now.

6:00am
ECA Stack
Cardio

6:45am
35g Whey (Zero Carb, Zero Fat)
BCAA's, EFA's, Multi, Chromium Picolinate

8:00am
2 Whole Eggs
6 Egg Whites
4 Strips Chicken Bacon
Veggies

11:00am
ECA Stack
70g Whey (Zero Carb, Zero Fat)
1 Tbsp Almond Butter

2:00pm
EFA's, Multi, CoQ10
10oz Chicken Breast
1oz Walnuts
10 Spears Asparagus

4:00pm
ECA, Argine, Beta Alanine, Creatine, 1500mg Tribulus
TRAIN + 30mins PWO Cardio

5:30pm
Creatine
70g Whey (Zero Carbs, Zero Fat)
BCAA's

8:00pm
EFA's, Multi.
Steak, Lean Ground Beef, or Eggs
2 Cups Broccoli

10:00pm
24g Casein

10:30pm
Asleep

2100 Calories, 350g Pro, Trace Carbs, 70g Fat.

So Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Maintain Calories and Protein only?

And Thursday, Friday. Reintroduce Fats and Carbs and Calories to above maintenance or adjust lower protein to keep calories at maintenance?

Thanks!

You have too many meals, too many carbs, and too high protein.
You would run pro/veg days prior to carbing up when fats and carbs are added in.
P

[Praetorian]

hey Prae i recently developed a case of gyno over the past month or so while on cycle. Im currently dieting for a show now the gyno is not too noticable however my nipples look a little pointy when im not flexing. I was wondering as i get leaner will it be less or more noticable?

There is some hard glandular tissue under my nipple. I know once the tissue is formed its permenant. I am going to have surgery after to get it removed. Once i have the surgery will i ever have to worry about it again?

thanks

If the surgeon is skilled and removes all the glandular tissue it should not come back. Usually when you lean out it can be less noticeable because you carry less fat...it all depends on the severity of it.
P

[rickyboy36]

Prae,I have a girl who is following a keto diet and her cheat meal is this Saturday.She's following a 1100 calorie diet and weighs in at about 155 now.How many calories would you advise for her to have on cheat meal?Carbs would be in the 100 region i would guess?

And last,once she gets back to her normal eating,would you have a woman have carbs with every meal like you advocate for men?I know for us its about 50grams per meal,but a woman's would be what?

[Praetorian]

Prae,I have a girl who is following a keto diet and her cheat meal is this Saturday.She's following a 1100 calorie diet and weighs in at about 155 now.How many calories would you advise for her to have on cheat meal?Carbs would be in the 100 region i would guess?

And last,once she gets back to her normal eating,would you have a woman have carbs with every meal like you advocate for men?I know for us its about 50grams per meal,but a woman's would be what?

100g for the cheat meal is fine. Once back to normal eating most women do not need starchy carbs everyday....you can alternate days ...some with carbs 25-30g every other meal with only pro/fat days.
If she gains easily she needs less carbs...more if she doesnt.
women can grow on alot less carbs then men. Carbs that work better for women are veggies, beans, nuts, berries etc. Avoid rice, pasta, bread....sweet potato use sparingly.
P

[rickyboy36]

100g for the cheat meal is fine. Once back to normal eating most women do not need starchy carbs everyday....you can alternate days ...some with carbs 25-30g every other meal with only pro/fat days.
If she gains easily she needs less carbs...more if she doesnt.
women can grow on alot less carbs then men. Carbs that work better for women are veggies, beans, nuts, berries etc. Avoid rice, pasta, bread....sweet potato use sparingly.
P

Prae,they say that WHITE pasta that is cooked "aldenté" is a very good carb source.On the GI index chart it scores lower than rice and oatmeal..but only if your pasta is cooked under 6 mins or so.They say that its the gel inside the pasta that is really hard to break down inside the body.

your thoughts?

[nitrous]

Currently on week 4 of an 8 week cycle of test p 525mg and tren a 350mg every week. No sides so far. i have aromasin and clomid for pct and not running the aromasin with the cycle right now. I've been considering adding in HCG during the cycle at 500iu twice a week for the rest of the cycle and then add in 12.5mg aromasin EOD to make it a bit stronger and help with recovery or upping the test to 700mg every week with aromasin at 12.5mg EOD.. what do you think P?

[Praetorian]

Currently on week 4 of an 8 week cycle of test p 525mg and tren a 350mg every week. No sides so far. i have aromasin and clomid for pct and not running the aromasin with the cycle right now. I've been considering adding in HCG during the cycle at 500iu twice a week for the rest of the cycle and then add in 12.5mg aromasin EOD to make it a bit stronger and help with recovery or upping the test to 700mg every week with aromasin at 12.5mg EOD.. what do you think P?

Probably a good idea to add the HCG...I would hold off on the aromasin unless you see sides....it can hinder gains.
P

[Praetorian]

Prae,they say that WHITE pasta that is cooked "aldenté" is a very good carb source.On the GI index chart it scores lower than rice and oatmeal..but only if your pasta is cooked under 6 mins or so.They say that its the gel inside the pasta that is really hard to break down inside the body.

your thoughts?

Cooking it "aldente " lowers the GI rating yes....it also depends on the thickness of the pasta. Many people cannot eat pasta as a carb source because of the gluten...myself included. Best possible carb sources would include nothing processed...ie sweet potato, beans, veggies etc thus as close o natural as possible.
P

[nitrous]

Probably a good idea to add the HCG...I would hold off on the aromasin unless you see sides....it can hinder gains.
P

think it would be overkill to add the HCG, more test, and aromasin?

to add a side i would say slightly high blood pressure and sex drive isnt crazy like it was but still about average where a couple weeks ago it was insane.. increased estro causing these?

[leborg]

Hi P.

A quick question about proteins bars, a lot of them are full of sugar alcohol.

Does sugar alcohol affect your ketosis state?

[bossman_1986]

I think it can help as long as you dont overdo it.
P

do you think 7 pump sets are overdoing it?

[Praetorian]

think it would be overkill to add the HCG, more test, and aromasin?

to add a side i would say slightly high blood pressure and sex drive isnt crazy like it was but still about average where a couple weeks ago it was insane.. increased estro causing these?

Estrogen conversion will depend on how much test you are taking....500mg weekly or less will cause very little aromatization. If estrogen is high for arguments sake you can add in a bit of aromasin and see if sex drive changes....12.5mg ED woudl be a start. It would take a week or two to see a difference. I wouldnt add more test because then you are changing too many variables and you wont be able to tell what is causing what.
P

[Praetorian]

do you think 7 pump sets are overdoing it?

If done infrequently no...if done too often yes.
P

[nitrous]

Estrogen conversion will depend on how much test you are taking....500mg weekly or less will cause very little aromatization. If estrogen is high for arguments sake you can add in a bit of aromasin and see if sex drive changes....12.5mg ED woudl be a start. It would take a week or two to see a difference. I wouldnt add more test because then you are changing too many variables and you wont be able to tell what is causing what.
P

sounds good thanks P

[Vitamin S]

p u should write a damn book bro crazy knowledge u have all the answers thx again for all ur help

[L3]

Hey P,

A while back you posted in the HRT forum about using T4 along with HGH...ive searched for that post but no luck. Would you mind reiterating that topic... i was left with the impression that T4&HGH > T3&HGH, but would like to understand the science behind it.

Thanks as always!!

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

A while back you posted in the HRT forum about using T4 along with HGH...ive searched for that post but no luck. Would you mind reiterating that topic... i was left with the impression that T4&HGH > T3&HGH, but would like to understand the science behind it.

Thanks as always!!

Well its a theory only and it can get complicated but here a simple version...hopefully.

GH as we all know increases the conversion of T4(inactive) to T3(active) thyroid. Thus if you did a blood test you would see your TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) levels drop which signifies that T3 levels have increased. Most people used to be under the assumption that GH lowered thyroid levels(T3) however that is because they did not understand the inverse relationship between T3 and TSH. Low TSH = high T3 and high TSH = low T3. So back to the theory....by increasing T3 slightly without affecting the conversion T4-T3 process or the D1 and D2 enzyme that goes along with this we can elevate the effects of the GH. But if we take exogenous T3 we unfortunately affect the negative feedback loop in essence lowering endogenous T3 and the conversion of T4 to T3 as well as D1 and D2 enzymes. To get around this issue we would take exogenous T4 to give us more T4 to be converted to T3 without affecting the negative feedback loop or the conversion process or D1 and D2 and thus have a larger pool of T4 to draw from when we use GH to increase the T4 to T3 conversion. Thus a slightly greater increase in thyroid equals a slightly elevated anabolic activity of the GH we are using.
Clear as mud?
P

[leborg]

Eh P.

I think you forgot my question!

I would like to eat some protein bars. I'm getting tired of my keto diet ( been on for 10 weeks now ) A lot of those bars contains a sugar alcohol... Does sugar alcohol affect your ketosis state? Is it ok to eat a bar a day while in ketose?

Thanks!

[JacktheThriller]

Leborg

sugar alcohol has carbs but only 1/2 to a 1/3 of the carbs in relation to 1 gram of sugar. These can also spike insulin not as great as sugar but still its a spike you dont really want. Definately not in the first 2 weeks of keto and id say extremely sparingly, like in a pinch for food at a 7-11

[Praetorian]

Eh P.

I think you forgot my question!

I would like to eat some protein bars. I'm getting tired of my keto diet ( been on for 10 weeks now ) A lot of those bars contains a sugar alcohol... Does sugar alcohol affect your ketosis state? Is it ok to eat a bar a day while in ketose?

Thanks!

Sorry about that...just missed it....definitely no bars. One they are basically worthless nutrition and two the sugar alcohol will knock you right out of ketosis...it is a very quick fuel much preferred by the brain over ketone bodies. You are better off to make your own bars out of natural peanut butter and protein powder.
P

[L3]

To get around this issue we would take exogenous T4 to give us more T4 to be converted to T3 without affecting the negative feedback loop or the conversion process or D1 and D2 and thus have a larger pool of T4 to draw from when we use GH to increase the T4 to T3 conversion. Thus a slightly greater increase in thyroid equals a slightly elevated anabolic activity of the GH we are using.
Clear as mud?
P

haha, i got that part!

thank you so much for breaking it down for me. would T4 dosing be dependant on how much GH is used? i have no idea on a general T4 dosing protocol either...

thanks P!

[Praetorian]

haha, i got that part!

thank you so much for breaking it down for me. would T4 dosing be dependant on how much GH is used? i have no idea on a general T4 dosing protocol either...

thanks P!

I would really suggest running gh the standard protocol way for now...there is no sense in adding in extra thyroid at this point...you have along way to go before worrying about that.
P

[leborg]

Jack and P.

Thanks for your help.

By the way, is it safe or healthy to eat so much eggs, and meat, and so few fruits and veggies? What is the maximum of weeks we should stay on a keto diet?

[Praetorian]

Jack and P.

Thanks for your help.

By the way, is it safe or healthy to eat so much eggs, and meat, and so few fruits and veggies? What is the maximum of weeks we should stay on a keto diet?

16 weeks on keto is plenty. Your protein intake is best varied thus the egg meal, the red meat or slamon meal, and the chicken meal. Humans are omnivores we are designed to eat meat and other things readily available such as nuts, seeds, fruit etc. The eggs are Omega 3...low in saturate dfat and high in essential fats...very healthy. This diet is not a maintenance diet it is a fat loss diet...thus reducing carbs is necessary...but not forever. Fruit is basically sugar...veggies are included in the diet. You should be taking a multivitamin...Juice plus is great. Get blood work done before and after the diet and compare the two...youll be surprised.
P

[btufts]

hey Prae, just wanted to give you a shout out on the forum, thanks for all your help so far!

[Kaly11]

P,

Running a keto diet with just clen for help maintaining muscle mass. A good idea or bad? Im natty so its one of my few ways.

Thanks.

[Praetorian]

hey Prae, just wanted to give you a shout out on the forum, thanks for all your help so far!

No prob...you are doing great...keep it up!
P

[Praetorian]

P,

Running a keto diet with just clen for help maintaining muscle mass. A good idea or bad? Im natty so its one of my few ways.

Thanks.

A keto diet is inherent to sparing muscle tissue...it is very difficult actually to lose muscle on a keto diet as long as you arent doing HIT cardio. Clen will help both with fat burning and muscle preservation but it is not necessary.
P

[Kaly11]

A keto diet is inherent to sparing muscle tissue...it is very difficult actually to lose muscle on a keto diet as long as you arent doing HIT cardio. Clen will help both with fat burning and muscle preservation but it is not necessary.
P

alright then thanks alot!

[gingerbreadman]

Prae,

Wondering if you can give me some real worl advice on dyazide - from the research I've done it seems like the diuretic of choice for potency and effectiveness.

Example, I expect I will be around 170-172 week of my contest which is in less than two weeks. With carbs at 150 or less overall caloric intake of 2,200 cals and a high caloric deficit (say 2,300 BMR and 2,400 cals from exercise daily) I seem to hold (hit a plateau) at around 170lbs. Issue is I'm hard and lean but when I look at past competition pics I look like I could hold my own with the previous welterweights (165 lbs and under) but not with the next class of 176 lbs and under.

Would say 50-100mgs dyazide on Friday (weigh-in day) along with a sodium load/deplete wityh sodium depletion ending Thursday and water drop Friday help me loose that extra 5-7 lbs to make welterweight WITHOUT loosing too much water and being dehydrated?

I know that's a hard question to answer so what if I worded it "what amount of dyazide would equal how many lbs water loss in a 170-ish lb bodybuilder? and over what time period?

Thanks for the help

[z83]

Hi P,

Is there any day completely off during keto ? I'm back at it, 8 days in and trained 7 days in a row including cardio... i'm burnt for tonight
"off" day should include cardio ?

[Praetorian]

Prae,

Wondering if you can give me some real worl advice on dyazide - from the research I've done it seems like the diuretic of choice for potency and effectiveness.

Example, I expect I will be around 170-172 week of my contest which is in less than two weeks. With carbs at 150 or less overall caloric intake of 2,200 cals and a high caloric deficit (say 2,300 BMR and 2,400 cals from exercise daily) I seem to hold (hit a plateau) at around 170lbs. Issue is I'm hard and lean but when I look at past competition pics I look like I could hold my own with the previous welterweights (165 lbs and under) but not with the next class of 176 lbs and under.

Would say 50-100mgs dyazide on Friday (weigh-in day) along with a sodium load/deplete wityh sodium depletion ending Thursday and water drop Friday help me loose that extra 5-7 lbs to make welterweight WITHOUT loosing too much water and being dehydrated?

I know that's a hard question to answer so what if I worded it "what amount of dyazide would equal how many lbs water loss in a 170-ish lb bodybuilder? and over what time period?

Thanks for the help
If you are that close to making weight two weeks out...you should have no problem dropping a few more pounds of fat and just using the dyazide as a final touch to dry out. Even per chance you didnt make 165 and under you would still look better and most likley do well in your class. Dropping water to make weight in BB means pulling water indescriminately which ends up more often than not coming from muscle tissue (70% water) this leaves you smaller, flatter, less vascular, and actually smoother looking... not what you want. What I would suggest is drop all carbs except veggies. Keep protein high as usual and drop all fats except some fish oil caps daily until the thursday before the show then carb up thursday and friday as usual including fats. keeping water high on both days. Water is stopped friday evening. Sodium should be fairly high from the day you drop carbs until the friday before the show then no extra sodium on Friday only what is naturally present in food. Take the dyazide friday evening and very early Saturday morning.
P

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

Is there any day completely off during keto ? I'm back at it, 8 days in and trained 7 days in a row including cardio... i'm burnt for tonight
"off" day should include cardio ?

On keto you should be doing cardio seven days per week and weight training no more than five days per week.
P

[Rhinobolt10]

Hey man,

I was on another board where they were having a talk about long term tren usage, and Dante the Doogcrap guy chimed in saying that 50mgs e2d or e3d taken SUB Q was the way to go, but refused to get into much detail.

Do u you have any opinions or experience on this? and not just for long term usage, just even for a regular cycyle.

Thanks in advance.

[Praetorian]

Hey man,

I was on another board where they were having a talk about long term tren usage, and Dante the Doogcrap guy chimed in saying that 50mgs e2d or e3d taken SUB Q was the way to go, but refused to get into much detail.

Do u you have any opinions or experience on this? and not just for long term usage, just even for a regular cycyle.

Thanks in advance.

I really dont see whay any aas should be taken sub Q...I know there have been many arguments about this but I have yet to see any actual proof of benefit.
IM injection EOD or even ED for the most stable blood levels works just fine and has for thousands for many years. Trust me on this...taking tren subq is not going to work some sort of miracle and make you Mr O or give you a 3000lb total
P

[tiramisu]

The only argument I could see for sub-q would be to slow down the uptake into the blood stream. I have no idea why you would want to slow down 50 mg e2d/e3d that's already a fairly conservative dosing schedule. oddd that dante would recommend this. where did he post this?

[Rhinobolt10]

i"m really not going to start talking about other boards, I just found it interesting and thought it was worth looking into and asking a couple questions from people smarter than me, lol.

Thanks for the time P

[Praetorian]

i"m really not going to start talking about other boards, I just found it interesting and thought it was worth looking into and asking a couple questions from people smarter than me, lol.

Thanks for the time P

No worries...ive seen people post about sub q alot....just doesnt make much sense to me.
P

[Vitamin S]

hi P,

so i am 245lbs at 18 percent bf test this morning. so lean weight is about 200lbs. would i create a bulking diet based on the overall weight of 245 or use the lean tissue weight? i was told lean tissue as the overall weight gets no benefift from an increaes in calories?

i was thiking 300g protein 300g carbs and 150g fats spread over 6-7 meals with 2 cheat meals a week? would this be enough to see gains in lbm.

thanks so much

[natenator]

hi P,

so i am 245lbs at 18 percent bf test this morning. so lean weight is about 200lbs. would i create a bulking diet based on the overall weight of 245 or use the lean tissue weight? i was told lean tissue as the overall weight gets no benefift from an increaes in calories?

i was thiking 300g protein 300g carbs and 150g fats spread over 6-7 meals with 2 cheat meals a week? would this be enough to see gains in lbm.

thanks so much
at 18% why are you bulking?

[Vitamin S]

lo coz my dumbass let my self go and put on fat, so try to bulk up without gaining more body fat. i was off gear for a while so now i tidied my diet up and on gear.

[Praetorian]

lo coz my dumbass let my self go and put on fat, so try to bulk up without gaining more body fat. i was off gear for a while so now i tidied my diet up and on gear.

At 18% its very diffcult to put on lean mass without alot more fat....the body just doesnt work efficently. I would suggest cutting and using the rebound to add some significant lean muscle.
P

[Ritch]

Hey Prae, here`s a post from a guy on another forum I`d like your take on what he should do:

My Urologist prescribed me Clomid 50mg to take eod.

He wants me to take it for 3 months, so I suppose he wants to try the clomid as a form of "TRT". Before this, I used Androgel for a month, and it sucked, and when I came off it, I was totally shut down.

So far i've used:

Sunday 50mg clomid 40mg nolva
Monday 50mg clomid 40mg nolva
Tuesday 50mg clomid 40mg nolva
Wednesday 25mg clomid 20mg nolva
Thursday 25mg clomid 10mg nolva

(these were research chems)

Friday 25mg clomid
Saturday 25mg clomid

(this was pharmaceutical clomid prescribed by my Urologist)


So far i haven't noticed any benefits. I still feel like absolute shit, and no libido.


What if he added hcg to his protocol? Also what could he say to his doc to pursuade him to get hcg if it`s a good idea. Could you also post that link to the study that`s clinically proven to restore htpa funtion after a cycle? He`s gonna see his doc this week to get his thyroid checked as well. He`s been on now for 11 days and so far nothing has changed. Any ideas on what`s going on here?

[Vitamin S]

makes sense P,

should i just jump on a keto diet?? i had good results last time with the palumbo type of keto diet with minimal muscle loss, or should i still keep some carbs in the diet?

what would be a good bf level to get back down to before i can lean bulk up again? would i have to sustain that body fat level for a certain period of time or just rebout back to the bulking diet?

thx

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae, here`s a post from a guy on another forum I`d like your take on what he should do:

My Urologist prescribed me Clomid 50mg to take eod.

He wants me to take it for 3 months, so I suppose he wants to try the clomid as a form of "TRT". Before this, I used Androgel for a month, and it sucked, and when I came off it, I was totally shut down.

So far i've used:

Sunday 50mg clomid 40mg nolva
Monday 50mg clomid 40mg nolva
Tuesday 50mg clomid 40mg nolva
Wednesday 25mg clomid 20mg nolva
Thursday 25mg clomid 10mg nolva

(these were research chems)

Friday 25mg clomid
Saturday 25mg clomid

(this was pharmaceutical clomid prescribed by my Urologist)


So far i haven't noticed any benefits. I still feel like absolute shit, and no libido.


What if he added hcg to his protocol? Also what could he say to his doc to pursuade him to get hcg if it`s a good idea. Could you also post that link to the study that`s clinically proven to restore htpa funtion after a cycle? He`s gonna see his doc this week to get his thyroid checked as well. He`s been on now for 11 days and so far nothing has changed. Any ideas on what`s going on here?

If the Doc is prescribing clomid only to restore HPTA i doubt that will work very efficiently. Over time it may however one does not want to feel like crap for that long and it may take 6 months to a year to fully recover. HCG would definitely help..getting an MD to prescribe it is another story. Trust me on this it is alot eaiser for MD's to prescribe test for HRT than HCG for recovery...go figure. I would assume he had low test to begin with hence the androgel...now he is totally shut down and the testes will most likely require a bigger jump start from LH than what clomid can provide.
He may want to have a conversation about HPTA recovery and HCG as well as show the Doc the study.
Here is is.
P

HPTA reversal using HCG+Clomid+Tamoxifen

Objective:
Although shown to be effective for their intended medical treatment, AAS have been shown to induce hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in adult males. The medical literature is conflicting in the reports of spontaneous return and long-term suppression of gonadal suppression post AAS usage. This observational study documents the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning hormonal function to normal post AAS usage. Design:
Five HIV-negative males age 27-49, weighing 77-100 kg, with serum total testosterone levels below 240 ng/dL and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels below 1.5 mIU/mL were considered for this observational study. All five patients were administered the treatment protocol.
Methods:
Treatment consisted of combination therapy which included concurrent administration of (a) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, (b) Clomiphene Citrate and (c) Tamoxifen Citrate for a standard duration of 45 days. This protocol was repeated with every patient until serum LH and total testosterone values reached normal ranges.
Results:
All five patients were considered eugonadal by normal laboratory reference ranges by the conclusion of treatment. Average serum total testosterone rose from 98.2 to 692.8 ng/dL (p<.001) while the average serum LH rose from an average undetectable value of less than 1.0 to 7.92 mIU/mL (p<.0008).

Conclusions: Although the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen proved beneficial in reversing AAS induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, future controlled studies need to be performed to confirm the beneficial effects of this combined pharmacotherapy in returning HPGA functioning to normal.
Key Words- anabolic-androgenic steroids, clomiphene, HCG, tamoxifen, testosterone, HIV

INTRODUCTION
Testosterone and testosterone analogues, anabolic-androgenic steroids
(AAS), have long been used in the athletic community for improving lean muscle tissue and strength. A positive correlation has been shown with testosterone to include:
increased protein synthesis resulting in lean muscle tissue development (Bhasin et al, 1996; 1997; Hervey et al, 1981; Tenover, 1992),
enhanced sexual desire (libido) (Schiavi et al, 1991),
increased muscular strength (Bhasin et al, 1996; 1997; Hervey et al, 1981; Sih et al, 1997),
increased erythropoiesis (Bhasin et al, 1997; Evans & Amerson, 1974; Sih et al, 1997; Tenover, 1992),
a possible positive effect on bone development (Anderson et al, 1996; 1997; Baran et al, 1978; Tenover, 1992),
improved mental cognition and verbal fluency (Alexander et al, 1998), and male masculinizing characteristics (Starr & Taggart, 1992).

Recently, however, clinicians have recognized the potential benefits of their use in the treatment of various disorders and ailments. Numerous studies have discussed the use of AAS in the treatment of HIV-associated conditions (Bhasin et al, 2000; Grinspoon et al, 1998; 1999; 2000; Rabkin et al, 1999; 2000; Sattler et al, 1999; Strawford et al, 1999; Van Loan et al, 1999), hypogonadism (Bhasin et al, 1997; Davidson et al, 1979; Rabkin et al, 1999; Sih et al, 1997; Snyder et al, 2000; Tenover, 1992; Wagner & Rabkin, 1998; Wang et al, 2000), impotence (Carani et al, 1990; Carey et al, 1988; Klepsch et al, 1982; Lawrence et al, 1998; McClure et al, 1991; Morales et al, 1994; 1997; Nankin et al, 1986 Rakic et al, 1997; Schiavi et al, 1997), burn victims (Demling et al, 1997), various anemia’s (Doney et al, 1992; Gascon et al, 1999; Hurtado et al, 1993; Stricker et al, 1984), deteriorated myocardium (Tomoda, 1999), glucose uptake (Hobbs et al, 1996), continuous ambulatory peritoneal dialysis (CAPD) (Dombros et al, 1994), alcoholic hepatitis (Bonkovskyet al 1991; Mendenhall et al, 1993), hemochromatosis (Kley et al, 1992) and prevention of osteoporosis (Anderson et al, 1996; 1997; Baran et al, 1978; Behre et al 1997; Hamdy et al, 1998; Prakasam et al, 1999).
While AAS have proven effective in cases of lean muscle wasting conditions (HIV/AIDS), this class of medicines is not without their inherent problems. AAS have been shown to induce hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (Alen et al, 1987; Bhasin et al, 1996; Bijlsma et al, 1982; Clerico et al, 1981; Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990; Strawford et al, 1999; Stromme et al, 1974). This condition typically results from an abnormality in the normal functioning of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis (HPGA), usually from a negative feedback inhibition of one of the hormone secreting glands, causing a cascading unbalance in the rest of the axis. Possibly resulting from a physiological abnormality (i.e. mumps orchitis, Klinefelters syndrome, pituitary tumor) or as an acquired result of exogenous factors (i.e. androgen therapy, AAS administration). Clerico et al (1981) found a dramatic suppression of serum gonadotropin levels in athletes given methandrostenelone, suggesting a direct action of AAS on the hypothalamus. Similar results of suppressed gonadotropins have been found in patients supplementing solely testosterone (Bhasin et al, 1996; Marynick et al, 1979; Strawford et al, 1999; Tenover, 1992). Case report studies discussed a 36-year old male competitive bodybuilder and a 39-year old father, each using various AAS regimens over extended periods of time, who showed a blunted response to GnRH stimulation tests (Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990). One particular study administered 600 mg of nandrolone decanoate to 30 HIV-positive males over twelve weeks (Sattler et al, 1999). The results made no reference to LH or testosterone levels. The lack of gonadotropin measurement is puzzling as the data showed 12 of 30 subjects experienced testicular shrinkage, implying Leydig cell dysfunction and suppressed testosterone levels. Other studies using AAS have also shown no reference to LH or FSH levels but suppressed values are expected in each case (Bagatell et al, 1994; Behre et al, 1997; Sheffield-Moore et al, 1999; Tricker et al, 1996).
Declining, or suppressed, circulating testosterone levels as a result of either pathophysiological or induced hypogonadal conditions can have many negative consequences in males. Declining levels of testosterone have been directly linked to a progressive decrease in muscle mass (Mauras et al, 1998), loss of libido (Schiavi et al, 1991), decrease in muscular strength (Balagopal et al, 1997; Mauras et al, 1998) impotence (Rakic et al, 1997), oligospermia or azoospermia (Vermeulen & Kaufman, 1995), increase in adiposity (Mauras et al, 1998) and an increased risk of osteoporosis (Wishart et al, 1995).
While some research suggests that the hormonal axis will spontaneously return to normal shortly after cessation of testosterone administration (Knuth et al, 1989), documented cases have taken up to 2 ½ years to return to normal (Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990). This case of a 39-year old male who previously used AAS was found to have low serum testosterone levels (6nmol/L, range 14 to 28 nmol/L) 2 ½ years after his last administration of the drugs (Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990). For most men, suffering with diminished libido, impotence, depression, fatigue, muscle atrophy, and infertility for 2 ½ years is not a pleasant option. Other androgen or anabolic steroid induced cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism have taken 6 months (Gazvani et al, 1997; Wu et al, 1996), 8 months (Gazvani et al, 1997), 10 months (Boyadjiev et al, 2000), 12 months (Schurmeyer et al, 1984), and 18 months (Gazvani et al, 1997) to finally return to eugonadal status.
The individual use of human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen citrate in the treatment of testicular sub-function and gonadotropin suppression, respectively, is well documented. HCG has been shown to significantly improve gonadal function in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal adult males (Barrio et al, 1999; Burgess & Calderon, 1997; Cisternino et al, 1998; D’Agata et al, 1982; 1984; Dunkel et al, 1985; Kelly et al, 1982; Ley & Leonard, 1985; Liu et al, 1988; Martikainen et al, 1986; Okuyama et al, 1986; Ulloa-Aguirre et al, 1985; Vicari et al, 1992). Studies using clomiphene citrate to induce endogenous gonadotropin production in males found significant improvements in LH and FSH values after treatment (Bjork et al, 1977; Burge et al, 1997; Guay et al, 1995; Landefeld et al, 1983; Lim & Fang, 1976; Ross et al, 1980; Spijkstra et al, 1988). Tamoxifen citrate has also been found to produce a profound increase in serum LH levels as well as improved semen and sperm quality (Gazvani et al, 1997; Krause et al, 1985; Lewis-Jones et al, 1987; Wu et al, 1996).
As HCG’s effect is centralized at the Leydig cells of the testicles, clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen citrate act upon the hypothalamic-pituitary region in stimulating gonadotropin production. Tamoxifen, a nonsteroidal antiestrogen, and clomiphene citrate, a nonsteroidal ovulatory stimulant, compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary and allowing gonadotropin production to resume normally. The normal operation of both the testicular and hypothalamic-pituitary regions is crucial in returning HPGA function to normal. Returning one component of the axis to normal without concurrently returning the other would sabotage and inhibit the operation of the entire HPGaxis. It was with this understanding that HCG was eventually combined with clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen as attempted therapy to reverse gonada function in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal males.
In accordance with previous studies, each medication was used individually, and along with HCG, in initial trials. The simultaneous use of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen was determined through preliminary use of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen individually. It was discovered that although both clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen met with some success, when combined together they achieved a more significant increase in gonadotropin production. This clinical outcome resulted in the combination therapy of HCG, clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen.

Following is a clinical evaluation of the combined, simultaneous use of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen citrate as a treatment option in suppressed testosterone and gonadotropin levels in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal adult males. This observational analysis of the aforementioned treatment protocol assessed the efficacy of these medicines under non-controlled conditions.

METHODS
An observational study was done on the medical records of 5 adult male patients presenting to a clinic with induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Patients were monitored and treatment recorded for the purposes of this observational study.
SUBJECTS
The medical records of five males age 27-49, mean 35.2, weighing 77-100 kg, mean 89.8 kg, with serum total testosterone levels below 240 ng/dL and serum luteinizing hormone (LH) levels below 1.5 mIU/mL were examined. Average presenting testosterone level was 98.2 ng/dL (normal= 240-827 ng/dL) while average LH level was undetectable at <1.0 mIU/mL (normal= 1.5-9.3 mIU/mL). The 5 patients had a history of AAS usage ranging from 9-60 months prior to presentation. All patients had ceased any testosterone therapy or AAS usage prior to initiation of treatment. Initial laboratory values confirmed that all patients had discontinued AAS long enough for endogenous lab values to fall below normal reference ranges. All patients were muscular in nature with an average BMI less than 27 at presentation. Table 1 presents the patient characteristics, anabolic history, and side effects upon presentation of the 5 patients.

LABORATORY STUDIES
Initial blood screening consisted of:
AST, ALT, GGT, TOTAL CHOLESTEROL, LH, FSH, TESTOSTERONE, GLUCOSE, PROLACTIN, PSA TOTAL, TSH, T3 UPTAKE, T4 TOTAL, T4 FREE, HEMOGLOBIN, HEMATOCRIT
Table 2 shows all baseline serum blood levels at presentation. Baseline blood screening excluded any form of hyperprolactinemia or hypothyroidism as causes of hypogonadism in most patients. After physician examination and history and physical evaluation, it was determined that a history of AAS usage was present and most likely the cause of the patients’ hypogonadotropic hypogonadal lab values; not hyperprolactinemia or hypothyroidism.
Laboratory testing was performed by Quest Diagnostics Inc., (Houston, TX) and SmithKline Beecham Clinical Laboratories, (Houston, TX). Repeat serum LH & testosterone samples were measured by immunoassay using chiron reagant kits on an ACS-180 instrument.

METHODS
A review of patients’ medical records showed a treatment intervention of (a) human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) (Ferring Pharmaceuticals), (b) clomiphene citrate (Teva Pharmaceuticals), and (c) tamoxifen (AstraZeneca). Typical dosage of HCG consisted of 2500 units every other day for 16 days.
All HCG injections were self-administered intramuscularly. Starting dosages of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen were 50mg and 20 mg daily, respectively. Patients started all three medications simultaneously and reported for the first follow-up blood work after completion of HCG, 16 days later. The post HCG blood analysis assessed testosterone-total response only. If testicular stimulation, i.e. testosterone production, was inadequate, additional HCG was administered at this stage of therapy rather than waiting an additional 30-45 days before the protocol completion. If the testicular response to the HCG demonstrated sufficient testicular stimulation (typically a blood serum level of >300 ng/dL), clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen were continued for 15 and 30 days, respectively. The arbitrary cut-off level of 300 ng/dL was used as a general assessment where sufficient Leydig cell stimulation was taking place even in light of artificial stimulation from HCG. A repeat blood sample was then taken at day 45 to assess hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis status via luteinizing hormone and total testosterone levels. Because of the varying cessation times of the medications, the concluding blood sample was taken after a 30 and 15-day washout period of HCG and clomiphene citrate, respectively. For HPGA function to be considered normal, both LH and testosterone values had to fall within the normal reference ranges. For the purposes of patient treatment, if LH and testosterone values were still below normal limits at the conclusion of 45 days of treatment, a repeat protocol administration of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen was given. This protocol was repeated with every patient until LH and testosterone values reached normal ranges.

RESULTS
All five patients were considered eugonadal by normal laboratory reference ranges by the conclusion of treatment. Average serum total testosterone rose from 98.2 to 692.8 ng/dL. Average serum LH rose from <1.0 to 7.92 mIU/mL. An average of 48,974 U of HCG (five 10,000 Unit boxes), 3412.5 mg of clomiphene citrate (68.25 50mg tablets), and 968.71 mg of tamoxifen (48.44 20mg tablets) were used to treat all patients to eugonadal. Total treatment time ranged from 43-120 days. Mean elapsed time from initiation of treatment to eugonadal was 68.6 days. Statistical analysis was performed using repeated measures ANOVA. Pre and post treatment testosterone values were significantly (p<.001) different as were the LH values (p<.0008). Table 3 demonstrates the hormone changes during the treatment period and the duration to eugonadal.

ADVERSE EVENTS
None of the study subjects had any serious or treatment-terminating effects as a result of the multi-drug protocol. No problems were noted with regards to parameters of normal urologic function or treatment causing gynecomastia. Any side effects documented at presentation were reversed by the conclusion of treatment.

DISCUSSION
This observational study demonstrates the possible efficacy of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen citrate in returning the HPGA to normal physiological function in adult males suffering from androgen induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. In the case of decreased testicular function manifested by low testosterone levels, it is of primary importance to first return the normal function of the testicular cells. The initial lack of response to HCG should not immediately be a cause for the initiation of testosterone replacement therapy, as with the current accepted therapy modality by many physicians. Blood analysis confirmed that no exogenous testosterone was administered during the treatment period, as exogenous androgens would have had a suppressive effect on endogenous gonadotropin production. Therefore, because of the corresponding normal gonadotropin and testosterone values, it is accepted that gonadotropin and testicular function were normal by the conclusion of treatment. The standard treatment of HIV-related muscle wasting, AAS therapy, may involve decades of treatment and the attendant problems with any therapy of a prolonged nature. Polycythemia vera, elevated hepatic enzymes, and prolonged negative alterations in lipid profile are a few of the dangers experienced by HIV patients administered AAS for extended periods. Of greatest concern is the increasing numbers of individuals who are currently being treated with AAS to increase muscle mass either for medicinal or recreational means without attention being given to periodically returning the HPGA to normal. With roughly 4 million men in the U.S. being considered hypogonadal (Lacayo R., 2000; Sheffield-Moore et al, 1999; Shelton DL, 2000), an estimated 200,000 men are currently receiving testosterone treatment for the condition (Shelton DL, 2000). As stated earlier, AAS are being prescribed to HIV & AIDS sufferers to combat progressive muscle loss. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported an estimated 635,000+ men diagnosed with AIDS through December 2000 while an estimated 97,700 have been reported with HIV (Centers for Disease Control, vol.12, No. 2, table 5; Centers for Disease Control, vol. 12, No. 2, table 6). In 2000 alone over 31,000 men were diagnosed with the AIDS virus (Centers for Disease Control, vol. 12, No. 2, figure 3). Between hypogonadal, AIDS, & HIV males, potentially over 900,000 men are being administered AAS therapy.
Studies recently published on patients suffering from various tissuedepleting conditions and HIV affliction (Bhasin et al, 2000; Grinspoon et al, 1998; 1999; 2000; Rabkin et al, 1999; 2000; Sattler et al, 1999; Strawford et al, 1999;1999; Van Loan et al, 1999) have not identified what should be done to restore normal endocrine status post-treatment. Considering the dosages and compounds administered in many studies, there is no question that subjects were left hypogonadal after therapy. In the cases where the periodic use of testosterone or AAS are necessary, intervention to return the HPGA to normal should be initiated as soon as possible after the cessation of the AAS. As described herein, a possible treatment modality may be the combined regimen of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen. Medical history has demonstrated examples of physician-induced complications resulting from treatment. Iatrogenic hyperthyroidism (Bartsch & Scheiber, 1981) and iatrogenic Cushing’s syndrome (Cihak & Beary, 1977; Kimmerle & Rolla, 1985; Smidt & Johnston, 1975; Tuel et al, 1990) are cases were administered medications or treatments provoked abnormalities in patients’ normal physiology. The administration of testosterone as a treatment for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism falls into this same category of causing endocrine related abnormalities (Bhasin et al, 1996; Marynick et al, 1979; Strawford et al, 1999; Tenover, 1992). Testosterone replacement therapy has proven to be very effective in reversing the symptoms of suppressed testosterone production, but does not treat the underlying cause of the deficiency. Positive effects of testosterone treatment; i.e. improved sex drive, improved sense of well-being, lean body mass; are all transient in light of plummeting gonadotropin levels. Upon cessation of testosterone treatment patients can expect a complete reversal of positive benefits as exogenously influenced testosterone levels metabolize and decline rapidly. Further controlled studies need to be performed showing the combined effects of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning HPGA functioning to normal. Long-term follow-up on these patients returning to normal will be necessary to ensure permanent reversal of hypogonadotropic hypogonadal conditions. In addition, studies documenting dose-response curves for pituitary inhibition and reversal due to AAS administration are critical in determining the correct dose, duration, and form of treatment that is optimal without causing permanent damage. When the need for long-term androgen use presents, using moderately supraphysiologic doses of androgens as suggested by Strawford and colleagues (1999) coupled with post-treatment HPGA restoration as demonstrated here, may be a more effective means over high-dose protocols used to offset negative alterations in lean body mass. Unfortunately current studies have yet to adequately address a standard of patient care post-androgen therapy. Because of the negative impact of the hypogonadal state on physical and mental well- being, pharmacotherapy that restores HPGA function more rapidly than current modalities would greatly benefit men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
While we believe that the treatment protocol was effective in returning normal hormonal function to these men, the lack of randomization or a control group leaves room for speculation. Although cases of spontaneous return to eugonadism with no medicinal intervention have been published, these reports documented durations anywhere from 6-18 months before normal hormone status was achieved (Gazvani et al, 1997; Wu et al, 1996). If the alternative treatment modality described herein can reverse suppressed gonadotropin production and AAS associated side effects much sooner than non-treatment, further evaluation of this therapy should continue.


REFERENCES
Alen M, Rahkila P, Reinila M, Vihko R. Androgenic-Anabolic Steroid Effects on Serum Thyroid, Pituitary and Steroid Hormones in Athletes. American Journal of Sports Medicine. 1987; 15: 357-361.
Alexander GM, Swerdloff RS, Wang C, Davidson T, McDonald V, Steiner B, Hines M. April Androgen-behavior Correlations in Hypogonadal Men and Eugonadal Men. II. Cognitive Abilities. Hormones and Behavior. 1998; 33(2): 85-94.
Anderson FH, Francis RM, Faulkner K. Androgen Supplementation in Eugonadal Men with Osteoporosis: Effects of Six Months of Treatment on Bone Mineral Density and Cardiovascular Risk Factors. Bone. 1996 Feb; 18(2): 171-177.
Anderson FH, Francis RM, Peaston RT, Wastell HJ. Androgen Supplementation in Eugonadal Men With Osteoporosis: Effects of Six Months’ Treatment on Markers of Bone Formation and Resorption. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research. 1997 Mar;12(3): 472-478.
Bagatell CJ, Heiman JR, Matsumoto AM, Rivier JE, Bremner WJ. Metabolic and Behavioral Effects of High-Dose, Exogenous Testosterone in Healthy Men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1994 Aug; 79(2): 561-567.
Bagatell CJ, Matsumoto AM, Christensen RB, Rivier JE, Bremner WJ. Comparison of a gonadotropin releasing –hormone antagonist plus testosterone (T) versus T alone as potential male contraceptive regimens. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1993 Aug; 77(2): 427-32.
Balagopal P, Rooyackers OE, Adey DB, Ades PA, Nair KS. Effects of Aging on In Vivo Synthesis of Skeletal Muscle Myosin Heavy-Chain and Sarcoplasmic Protein in Humans. American Journal of Physiology. 1997; 273 (4 pt 1): E790-800.
Baran DT, Bergfeld MA, Teitelbaum SL, Avioli LV. Effect of Testosterone Therapy on Bone Formation in an Osteoporotic Hypogonadal Male. Calcified Tissue Research. 1978 Dec; 26(2): 103-106.
Barrio R, de Luis D, Alonso M, Lamas A, Moreno JC. Induction of Puberty with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Follicle-Stimulating Hormone in Adolescent Males With Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism. Fertility and Sterility. 1999 Feb; 71(2): 244-248.
Bartsch G, Scheiber K. Tamoxifen Treatment in Oligozoospermia. European Urology. 1981; 7(5): 283-287.
Behre HM, Kliesch S, Leifke E, Link TM, Nieschlag E. Long-Term Effect of Testosterone Therapy on Bone Mineral Density in Hypogonadal Men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1997 Aug; 82(8): 2386- 2390.
Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, Callegari C, Clevenger B, Phillips J, Bunnell TJ, Tricker R, Shirazi A, Casaburi R. The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men. New England Journal of Medicine. 1996 July 4; 335: 1-7.
Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, Yarasheski KE, Clevenger B, Phillips J, Lee WP, Bunnell TJ, Casaburi R. Testosterone Replacement Increases Fat-Free Mass and Muscle Size in Hypogonadal Men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1997; 82(2): 407-413.
Bhasin S, Storer TW, Javanbakht M, Berman N, Yarasheski KE, Phillips J, Dike M, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Hays RD, Beall G. Testosterone Replacement and Resistance Exercise in HIV-Infected Men With Weight Loss and Low Testosterone Levels. JAMA. 2000 Feb 9; 283(6): 763-770.
Bijlsma JWJ, Duursma SA, Thijssen JHH, Huber O. Influence of Nandrolondecanoate on the Pituitary-Gonadal Axis in Males. Acta Endocrinologica. 1982 Sep; 101: 108-112.
Bjork JT, Varma RR, Borkowf HI. Clomiphene Citrate Therapy in a Patient with Laennec’s Cirrhosis. Gastroenterology. 1977 Jun; 72(6): 1308-1311.
Bonkovsky HL, Singh RH, Jafri IH, Fiellin DA, Smith GS, Simon D, Cotsonis GA, Slaker DP. A Randomized, Controlled Trial of Treatment of Alcoholic Hepatitis with Parental Nutrition and Oxandrolone. II. Short-term Effects on Nitrogen Metabolism, Metabolic Balance, and Nutrition. American Journal of Gastroenterology. 1991 Sep; 86(9): 1209-1218.
Boyadjiev NP, Georgieva KN, Massaldjieva RI, Gueorguiev SI. Reversible Hypogonadism and Azoospermia as a Result of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use in a Body Builder With Personality Disorder. A Case Report. Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness. 2000 Sep; 40(3): 271-274.
Burge MR, Lanzi RA, Skarda ST, Eaton RP. Idiopathic Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism in a Male Runner is Reversed by Clomiphene Citrate. Fertility and Sterility. 1997 April; 67(4): 783-785.
Burgess S, Calderon MD. Subcutaneous Self-Administration of Highly Purified Follicle Stimulating Hormone and Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin for the Treatment of Male Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism. Spanish Collaborative Group on Male Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism. Human Reproduction. 1997 May; 12(5): 980-986.
Carani C, Zini D, Baldini A, Della Casa L, Ghizzani A, Marrama P. Effects of Androgen Treatment in Impotent Men with Normal and Low Levels of Free Testosterone. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 1990 Jun; 19(3): 223-234.
Carey PO, Howards SS, Vance ML. Transdermal Testosterone Treatment of Hypogonadal Men. Journal of Urology. 1988 Jul; 140(1): 76-79.
Centers for Disease Control. Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention. Survey Report vol. 12, No. 2. Table 6. www.cdc.gov
Centers for Disease Control. Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention. Survey Report vol. 12, No. 2. Figure 3. www.cdc.gov
Centers for Disease Control. Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention. Survey Report vol. 12, No. 2. Table 5. www.cdc.gov
Cihak RW, Beary FD. Elevated Triiodothyronine and Dextrothyroxine Levels: A Potential Cause of Iatrogenic Hyperthyroidism. Southern Medical Journal. 1977 Feb; 70(2): 256-257.
Cisternino M, Manzoni SM, Coslovich E, Autelli M. Hormonal Replacement Therapy with HCG and HU-FSH in Thalassaemic Patients Affected by Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism. Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1998; 11 Suppl 3: 885-890.
Clerico A, Ferdeghini M, Palombo C, Leoncini R, Del Chicca MG, Sardano G, Mariani G. Effect of Anabolic Treatment on the Serum Levels of Gonadotropins, Testosterone, Prolactin, Thyroid Hormones and Myoglobin of Male Athletes Under Physical Training. Journal of Nuclear Medicine and Allied Science. 1981 July-Sep; 25(3): 79-88.
Cook LH, Freinkel RK, Zugerman C, Levin DL, Radtke R. Iatrogenic Hyperadrenocorticism During Topical Steroid Therapy: Assessment of Systemic Effects by Metabolic Criteria. Journal of American Academy of Dermatology. 1982 Jun; 6(6): 1054-1060.
D’Agata R, Heindel JJ, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Gulizia S, Polosa P. HCG-Induced Maturation of the Seminiferous Epithelium in Hypogonadotropic Men. Hormone Research. 1984; 19(1): 23-32.
D’Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongioi A, Gulizia S. Testicular Responsiveness to Chronic Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Administration in Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1982 Jul; 55(1): 76-80.
Davidson JM, Camargo CA, Smith ER. Effects of Androgen on Sexual Behavior in Hypogonadal Men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1979 Jun; 48(6): 955-958.
Demling RH, DeSanti L. Oxandrolone, an Anabolic Steroid, Significantly Increases the Rate of Weight Gain in the Recovery Phase After Major Burns. The Journal of Trauma. 1997 Jul; 43(1): 47-51.
Dombros NV, Digenis GE, Soliman G, Oreopoulos DG. Anabolic Steroids in the Treatment of Malnourished CAPD Patients: a Retrospective Study. Peritoneal Dialysis International. 1994; 14(4): 344-347.
Donega P, Gallerani M, Vigna GB, Fellin R. Reversible Hyperthyroidism and Cardiomyopathy Caused by Consumption of Iodocasein. American Journal of Medical Science. 2000 Aug; 320(2): 148-150.

[Praetorian]

makes sense P,

should i just jump on a keto diet?? i had good results last time with the palumbo type of keto diet with minimal muscle loss, or should i still keep some carbs in the diet?

what would be a good bf level to get back down to before i can lean bulk up again? would i have to sustain that body fat level for a certain period of time or just rebout back to the bulking diet?

thx

I would suggest keto such as the Dave P diet yes and go for 12-16 weeks and get as lean as possible...then ride the rebound slowly and let the lean gains come.
P

[Vitamin S]

thank you P.

[Shaun73]

p quick question on a cycle of 800 test 600 decca and 50mg ed of dbol
should 1 use 1mg a dex ed, eod, or is it not even necessary

[dremen]

p quick question on a cycle of 800 test 600 decca and 50mg ed of dbol
should 1 use 1mg a dex ed, eod, or is it not even necessary

1mg?

[Praetorian]

p quick question on a cycle of 800 test 600 decca and 50mg ed of dbol
should 1 use 1mg a dex ed, eod, or is it not even necessary

If you arent seeing any sides than it is unnecessary to use arimidex. If you start to notice sides as in nipple sensitivity etc then you can start at .5mg EOD and take it from there.
P

[nitrous]

hey P my training partner has been having some gyno issues and im not sure why so dont know what to suggest for him.. he has a lump under 1 nipple and the other is starting but it isnt nearly as bad..

currently he is taking
100mg test p EOD
100mg tren a EOD
250mg sust EOD
25mg winny ED

to control it all he is taking:
15mg aromasin ED
.35mg prami ED
1mg letro ED

still having issues.. no crazy water retention or anything else noticeable.. personally i was surprised he was taking that much anti-e let alone still having issues with it.. ideas?

[Praetorian]

hey P my training partner has been having some gyno issues and im not sure why so dont know what to suggest for him.. he has a lump under 1 nipple and the other is starting but it isnt nearly as bad..

currently he is taking
100mg test p EOD
100mg tren a EOD
250mg sust EOD
25mg winny ED

to control it all he is taking:
15mg aromasin ED
.35mg prami ED
1mg letro ED

still having issues.. no crazy water retention or anything else noticeable.. personally i was surprised he was taking that much anti-e let alone still having issues with it.. ideas?

Hes completely overkilling the AI's.... I would pick aromasin at 12.5mg ED and drop the letro and add 20mg nolva per day. Normally if an AI is not controlling the gyno nolva is the only thing that will...that is to say if it is an estrogen problem to begin with. You will know if it is an estro problem in that once the nolva is started the gyno should minimize in a few days. If it doesnt it could be the tren and progesterone but i have a feeling it isnt.
P

[nitrous]

Hes completely overkilling the AI's.... I would pick aromasin at 12.5mg ED and drop the letro and add 20mg nolva per day. Normally if an AI is not controlling the gyno nolva is the only thing that will...that is to say if it is an estrogen problem to begin with. You will know if it is an estro problem in that once the nolva is started the gyno should minimize in a few days. If it doesnt it could be the tren and progesterone but i have a feeling it isnt.
P

awesome thanks P.. i'll keep ya posted on how it goes

dont think that mixing nolva with tren is bad? I know nolva can increase & activate progesterone receptors in breast tissue.

[Ritch]

I`d like to see the evidence of nolva aggravating progesterone receptors in the body.

[nitrous]

I`d like to see the evidence of nolva aggravating progesterone receptors in the body.

i think what P is thinking is that it doesnt matter if it aggravates the progesterone receptors because its estro that is causing the issues.. but i could be wrong..

and yeah i've never researched it whether nolva does or not just what i've heard no actual studies

[dainbramaged]

Hey Praetorian,

A quick question about tanning. I know after all the coats of pro tan leading up to the show and the application of the bronzer (dream tan, quick bronze) for the prejudging, but when the evening show rolls around will the bronzer have dried enough for the 'sheen' product for the night show to apply smoothly? Or is it necessary to remove the bronzer after the morning?

[Praetorian]

i think what P is thinking is that it doesnt matter if it aggravates the progesterone receptors because its estro that is causing the issues.. but i could be wrong..

and yeah i've never researched it whether nolva does or not just what i've heard no actual studies

Ive never seen evidence of nolva doing that. Normally progesterone isnt a problem unless accompanied by high estro anyway. You wont need to run the nolva long anyway...if it is estrogen youll see a difference fairly quickly.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey Praetorian,

A quick question about tanning. I know after all the coats of pro tan leading up to the show and the application of the bronzer (dream tan, quick bronze) for the prejudging, but when the evening show rolls around will the bronzer have dried enough for the 'sheen' product for the night show to apply smoothly? Or is it necessary to remove the bronzer after the morning?

I always have some extra dream tan or bonzer just in case....it wears off easily on clothes etc and youll need some for your face and head if you shave your head. Use only a small amount so your face is lighter than your body a shad eor two. Never use protan on your face youll look like a mechanic whos been under a car doing repairs.
P

[dainbramaged]

I always have some extra dream tan or bonzer just in case....it wears off easily on clothes etc and youll need some for your face and head if you shave your head. Use only a small amount so your face is lighter than your body a shad eor two. Never use protan on your face youll look like a mechanic whos been under a car doing repairs.
P

Cool, and thanks for the response! But adding some product for the night show won't be a problem? Like Muscle Juice or Pam or something similar? Just for the extra luster? (can't believe I just used that word, lol)

[Praetorian]

Cool, and thanks for the response! But adding some product for the night show won't be a problem? Like Muscle Juice or Pam or something similar? Just for the extra luster? (can't believe I just used that word, lol)

No not a problem...avoid PAM...use Pro Tan Muscle Sheen or Jan Tana posing gel.

P

[dainbramaged]

Thanks for the responses Praetorian. Got some Pro Tan Stage Finish, so I wasn't sure if there'd be an issue/conflict. Glad you're here man, you're a definite asset to the board.

[natenator]

Praetorian: what can one sub in place of the nut butters with the shake meals? Are olive oils or some other types of oils allowed?

Thanks!

[Praetorian]

Praetorian: what can one sub in place of the nut butters with the shake meals? Are olive oils or some other types of oils allowed?

Thanks!

Yes olive oil or macadamian nut oil is fine...the only issue is you miss out on the trace carbs...you may want to add a small amount of veggies if you use the oils.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

been on cyp deca for a month now and would like to throw in igf-1 lr3. probably stay with 40-60mcg split bi-latterly pwo on muscles trained. does it need to be stacked with insulin to see gains or can it be used alone alongside AAS?

thx

[gingerbreadman]

If you are that close to making weight two weeks out...you should have no problem dropping a few more pounds of fat and just using the dyazide as a final touch to dry out. Even per chance you didnt make 165 and under you would still look better and most likley do well in your class. Dropping water to make weight in BB means pulling water indescriminately which ends up more often than not coming from muscle tissue (70% water) this leaves you smaller, flatter, less vascular, and actually smoother looking... not what you want. What I would suggest is drop all carbs except veggies. Keep protein high as usual and drop all fats except some fish oil caps daily until the thursday before the show then carb up thursday and friday as usual including fats. keeping water high on both days. Water is stopped friday evening. Sodium should be fairly high from the day you drop carbs until the friday before the show then no extra sodium on Friday only what is naturally present in food. Take the dyazide friday evening and very early Saturday morning.
P

Prae thanks for the advice I was following it to a "T" and preparing to do all the steps except the dyazide because I can't find any and I'm not going to worry about it just manipulate salt & water exactly how you recommend.

I was coming along and drying out nicely but beginning Apr 29th PM I began experiencing what I would call exhaustion or chronic fatigue. Hardly enough energy to get out of my own way & cranky to be around. Although funny when I did force myself to work out the strength was there I was just pathetically lethargic otherwise. Anyway, it got to a point yesterday where I recognized I must be sick of some type and suddenly I just couldn't take anymore chicken and salad. (My daily intake was around 2,000 cals 100g carbs 50-60 fats along with 20-40 min weights and 60-120 min 135 BPM cardio). I began to doubt the whole contest thing if it meant feeling this way so I wound up on a small binge. End of day yesterday Apr 3rd (exactly 1 week from contest date) I took in 5,300 cals, 350P, 432Carbs, 208 sugars, 238 fats & most of this happened after 2PM with little water to go with it.

So two questions

1) Should I just carry-on with your original plan & cut back on the exercise because I'm fatigued until I recover (I think I feel a little better already after fuelling-up) (think I may need another 50g carbs I seem to be real sensitive to them)

2) Is experiencing this kind of "hitting a brick wall" fatigue common in the athletic world specifically in bodybuilding contest prep?

To let you know where I stand my evening weight (on sodium load and 2,000 cals is at or 2 lbs above my weight class) and I looked like this Apr 2 after a chest/back workout 8 days from contest

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr261/colbertroader/IMG_6910.jpg
http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr261/colbertroader/IMG_6906-1.jpg

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr261/colbertroader/IMG_6907-1.jpg

[Praetorian]

p,

been on cyp deca for a month now and would like to throw in igf-1 lr3. probably stay with 40-60mcg split bi-latterly pwo on muscles trained. does it need to be stacked with insulin to see gains or can it be used alone alongside AAS?

thx

IGF-1 acts similar to insulin so you dont need insulin at all. 40-60mcg daily wil downgrade your receptors very quickly and youll see litlle gains after a week or so. A lower does works much better...ie 10mcg in the morning and 10mcg post workout. Also you dont need to inject into the muscle trained as IGF-1LR3 become systemic very quickly after injection.
P

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE=gingerbreadman;369012]Prae thanks for the advice I was following it to a "T" and preparing to do all the steps except the dyazide because I can't find any and I'm not going to worry about it just manipulate salt & water exactly how you recommend.

I was coming along and drying out nicely but beginning Apr 29th PM I began experiencing what I would call exhaustion or chronic fatigue. Hardly enough energy to get out of my own way & cranky to be around. Although funny when I did force myself to work out the strength was there I was just pathetically lethargic otherwise. Anyway, it got to a point yesterday where I recognized I must be sick of some type and suddenly I just couldn't take anymore chicken and salad. (My daily intake was around 2,000 cals 100g carbs 50-60 fats along with 20-40 min weights and 60-120 min 135 BPM cardio). I began to doubt the whole contest thing if it meant feeling this way so I wound up on a small binge. End of day yesterday Apr 3rd (exactly 1 week from contest date) I took in 5,300 cals, 350P, 432Carbs, 208 sugars, 238 fats & most of this happened after 2PM with little water to go with it.

So two questions

1) Should I just carry-on with your original plan & cut back on the exercise because I'm fatigued until I recover (I think I feel a little better already after fuelling-up) (think I may need another 50g carbs I seem to be real sensitive to them)

2) Is experiencing this kind of "hitting a brick wall" fatigue common in the athletic world specifically in bodybuilding contest prep?

To let you know where I stand my evening weight (on sodium load and 2,000 cals is at or 2 lbs above my weight class) and I looked like this Apr 2 after a chest/back workout 8 days from contest


Keep everything the same as i previously said. The refeed should make you feel better but youll need to deplete in order to carb up correctly so i would avoid eating any more carbs. It is VERY common to feel like you hit a wall...it happens in all sports and is something you need to be mentally strong to overcome...it will pass and it doesnt last long.
If your contest is saturday you need to train legs today and the rest of the body by wednesday...thursday and friday no training or cardio.
You look good...so keep things steady with no drastic changes.
P

[gingerbreadman]

Keep everything the same as i previously said. The refeed should make you feel better but youll need to deplete in order to carb up correctly so i would avoid eating any more carbs. It is VERY common to feel like you hit a wall...it happens in all sports and is something you need to be mentally strong to overcome...it will pass and it doesnt last long.
If your contest is saturday you need to train legs today and the rest of the body by wednesday...thursday and friday no training or cardio.
You look good...so keep things steady with no drastic changes.
P



1st of all I feel A TON better today. Huge difference. Still looking tight :-) going to just tan & sauna today & Monday & have a rest

Legs were done yesterday

Beginning the no carb as recommended today will continue with carbs just from veggies <100g until Thursday with cals 1,800-2,100 depending on protein. Water 10L, sodium 5,000mgs

Will train upper body Tues & Wed

Thursday posing practice, 10L water, 2,400mgs sodium, same diet with 30grms carbs likley oats included in 5-7 meals - none after 5PM also include salmon & Udo's oil. Shave, exfoliate

Friday 7L water stopping at 4PM. Similar diet to Thursday. Sodium low as possible eggs etc as you say 30grms oats in ea. of 4-5 meals. exfoliate. tan application. More posing practice. Eat lightly during & after 6PM weigh-in with early bed-time

Thanks so much for the support & advice - yesterday was a rough day!

[Praetorian]

1st of all I feel A TON better today. Huge difference. Still looking tight :-) going to just tan & sauna today & Monday & have a rest

Legs were done yesterday

Beginning the no carb as recommended today will continue with carbs just from veggies <100g until Thursday with cals 1,800-2,100 depending on protein. Water 10L, sodium 5,000mgs

Will train upper body Tues & Wed

Thursday posing practice, 10L water, 2,400mgs sodium, same diet with 30grms carbs likley oats included in 5-7 meals - none after 5PM also include salmon & Udo's oil. Shave, exfoliate

Friday 7L water stopping at 4PM. Similar diet to Thursday. Sodium low as possible eggs etc as you say 30grms oats in ea. of 4-5 meals. exfoliate. tan application. More posing practice. Eat lightly during & after 6PM weigh-in with early bed-time

Thanks so much for the support & advice - yesterday was a rough day!

10L is very high...you may start leaching too many electrolytes at that amount...ive never gone higher than 6-7 litres. Water intake on Thursday should be the same as friday....you just stop it Friday and I would wait till at least 6-8pm ....4pm is very early and may be too early and start pulling water from muscle. Carbs are eaten with every meal...6 meals is fine....you dont stop carb intake after 5pm...keep them in each meal.
P

[gingerbreadman]

10L is very high...you may start leaching too many electrolytes at that amount...ive never gone higher than 6-7 litres. Water intake on Thursday should be the same as friday....you just stop it Friday and I would wait till at least 6-8pm ....4pm is very early and may be too early and start pulling water from muscle. Carbs are eaten with every meal...6 meals is fine....you dont stop carb intake after 5pm...keep them in each meal.
P

Thanks Prae you're awesome. That advice of keeping water same on Friday takes the worry away from not having a bowel movement Sat AM! :-) Dunno why I'm so scared of water but I guess alot of advice I've received & read tends to preach that. I'm going with yours. Gonna lower to 7 as well & take the carb advice.

BTW I really needed some rest - my heartrate was up to 80BPM when I was trying to sleep and still at 70BPM the next morning. Two months ago I had a resting HR of 56

One more thought, I guess I'm running close to the top end of my class - either spot on or a couple lbs above at around weigh-in time. I'm wondering if all else equal, if my weight would be expected to drop a bit Friday with the drop in sodium? Also, as I introduce carbs & fat Thurs & Fri is it expected that my calories increase much over what I was consuming earlier in the week during depletion which is low for a 176 lb'er at 2,000?

[Praetorian]

Thanks Prae you're awesome. That advice of keeping water same on Friday takes the worry away from not having a bowel movement Sat AM! :-) Dunno why I'm so scared of water but I guess alot of advice I've received & read tends to preach that. I'm going with yours. Gonna lower to 7 as well & take the carb advice.

BTW I really needed some rest - my heartrate was up to 80BPM when I was trying to sleep and still at 70BPM the next morning. Two months ago I had a resting HR of 56

One more thought, I guess I'm running close to the top end of my class - either spot on or a couple lbs above at around weigh-in time. I'm wondering if all else equal, if my weight would be expected to drop a bit Friday with the drop in sodium? Also, as I introduce carbs & fat Thurs & Fri is it expected that my calories increase much over what I was consuming earlier in the week during depletion which is low for a 176 lb'er at 2,000?

High water intake with plenty of sodium = low aldosterone =no water retention. Limiting water and sodium = high aldosterone= water retention. Tapering water = increase in aldosterone = water retention. Carbs and fats are added back in dont worry about calories you are not putting on fat you are filling out. Your weight will probably drop friday as youll be losing water. You may gain some slightly over Thursday but Friday should even things out. If you need to make weight friday night for weigh and are close....stop water intake a bit earlier.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

okay so if i stick to 20mcg daily thas about 50 days if i use one 1000mcg kit.

1. what is the ideal length to run igf-1 lr3 before taking a break?

2. can i stay at 20mcg daily for the duration of therapy or go up?

3. IM or subq?

4. if i don't train in evening would i just do only the morning 10mcg?

5. since igf-1 causes everything to grow does one have to worry about weird things growing like existing moles or skin tags etc? or is that dose and length dependant?

6. why do people inject into the muscles train bi-latterly is that just a myth?

7. do u mix it the same way at hgh using bacteriostatic water?

thanks P

[gingerbreadman]

Perfect. Great board. Glad you are here.:tu

[nitrous]

p,

okay so if i stick to 20mcg daily thas about 50 days if i use one 1000mcg kit.

1. what is the ideal length to run igf-1 lr3 before taking a break?

2. can i stay at 20mcg daily for the duration of therapy or go up?

3. IM or subq?

4. if i don't train in evening would i just do only the morning 10mcg?

5. since igf-1 causes everything to grow does one have to worry about weird things growing like existing moles or skin tags etc? or is that dose and length dependant?

6. why do people inject into the muscles train bi-latterly is that just a myth?

thanks P

exactly what i was wondering haha

[Praetorian]

p,

okay so if i stick to 20mcg daily thas about 50 days if i use one 1000mcg kit.
TRUE, BUT BETTER TO USE 10MCG DAILY AND RUN 4 WEEKS 2 WEEKS OFF FOR 3 MINI CYCLES

1. what is the ideal length to run igf-1 lr3 before taking a break? 4 WEEKS

2. can i stay at 20mcg daily for the duration of therapy or go up? 10MCG DAILY IS IDEAL AS ABOVE...20MCG WOULD ALSO BE FINE FOR 4 WEEKS

3. IM or subq? IM

4. if i don't train in evening would i just do only the morning 10mcg? YES

5. since igf-1 causes everything to grow does one have to worry about weird things growing like existing moles or skin tags etc? or is that dose and length dependant? IT DOESNT CAUSE EVERYHIGN TO GROW...ONLY WHAT NORMALLY WOULD WHEN THE BODY SECRETES IGF ON ITS OWN, SO NO WORRIES

6. why do people inject into the muscles train bi-latterly is that just a myth? YES, IGF LR3 BECOMES SYSTEMIC VERY QUICKLY AFTER INJECTION SO THERE IS NO NEED TO INJECT INTO THE MUSCLE TRAINED

7. do u mix it the same way at hgh using bacteriostatic water? YES YOU CAN, YOU CAN ALSO USE AN ACETIC ACID SOLUTION

thanks P



P

[natenator]

Yes olive oil or macadamian nut oil is fine...the only issue is you miss out on the trace carbs...you may want to add a small amount of veggies if you use the oils.
P
thank you.

Can I add a few extra into the steak/salmon meal? It already calls for a small green salad so maybe some cucumber slices will suffice?

[Praetorian]

thank you.

Can I add a few extra into the steak/salmon meal? It already calls for a small green salad so maybe some cucumber slices will suffice?

Yes thats fine..
P

[IronMan]

P

Yes, Dave Palumbo was saying that the Acetic Acid is the BEST way to use IGF. Keeps it stable longer than Bacteriostatic water, and also the Acetic acid gets all of the IGF molecules properly dissolved and mixed into the solution. When using Bacteriostatic Water, you lose about 10% of your IGF because it doesn't get all the IGF into the solution. That's what I learned from Palumbo.

[Vitamin S]

Hey p,

is what Ironman said true about igf-1 and aa instead of using bac water. i used 1cc of bac water with my 1000mcg igf-1 lr3 and i still have little flakes floating around the bottom like little salt sized granules. so i let it sit in the fridge for about 1 hour and still they were there, but i injected 20mcg IM post workout anyways. i then put another 1cc of bac water to further dilute it and will let it sit over night.

1. is the igf-1 fully disperssed u think or did i lose 10 percent of it since i didn't use acetic acid. my igf-1 lr3 says it contains no fillers or manitol.

2. since i used bac water to reconstitue all of my igf-1, how long is my igf-1 good for? i hear answers from 7 days to 21 days or i have to preload the insulin sygringes and freeze them ??

3. and what is your take on taking T3 (cytomel) while bulking to help with protein synthesis and keep body fat levels in check?

thanks

[Praetorian]

Hey p,

is what Ironman said true about igf-1 and aa instead of using bac water. i used 1cc of bac water with my 1000mcg igf-1 lr3 and i still have little flakes floating around the bottom like little salt sized granules. so i let it sit in the fridge for about 1 hour and still they were there, but i injected 20mcg IM post workout anyways. i then put another 1cc of bac water to further dilute it and will let it sit over night.

1. is the igf-1 fully disperssed u think or did i lose 10 percent of it since i didn't use acetic acid. my igf-1 lr3 says it contains no fillers or manitol.
MAYBE 10% BUT ITS NEGLIGIBLE...I WOULDNT WORRY ABOUT IT

2. since i used bac water to reconstitue all of my igf-1, how long is my igf-1 good for? i hear answers from 7 days to 21 days or i have to preload the insulin sygringes and freeze them ?? GOOD FOR 4 WEEKS AS LONG AS ITS REFRIGERATED

3. and what is your take on taking T3 (cytomel) while bulking to help with protein synthesis and keep body fat levels in check? SILLY, T3 IS FOR CUTTING, THE SLIGHT INCREASE IN PROTEIN SYNTHESIS IS NEGATED BY THE CALORIES USED

thanks

P

[declan]

Hey P, how do you suggest using hcg when on short esters like prop or ace? I've been pinning it twice a week at 250 since week 3? Do you run it till your last shot since prop clears in just 3 days? I might be wrong but your hcg suggestions pertain mostly to longer estered test. Thanks.

[Praetorian]

Hey P, how do you suggest using hcg when on short esters like prop or ace? I've been pinning it twice a week at 250 since week 3? Do you run it till your last shot since prop clears in just 3 days? I might be wrong but your hcg suggestions pertain mostly to longer estered test. Thanks.

I would normally recommend 500iu twice weekly while on and immediately after stopping start HCG EOD or ETD. You will need an AI along with it as well.
P

[Ritch]

Another hcg question for you Prae. That guy I told you about on another forum got some hcg but only got 2500 iu`s... Now he`s about 3 weeks in his clomid and has used 250 units twice. I told him 250 units eod wouldn`t be enough, but don`t know what else to tell him.

What would you advise him to do? He can get more hcg next week. I`m guessing he needs some bigger shots, like 1000 units at a time, and 10 000 units more to get him through this. What would you advise him to do with the clomid as well? He`s been using about 25-50 mg a day, with no impovements so far.

( His doc originally had him on androgel for a month and that`s why he`s on clomid to get his test back up and his body working normally. But as you said he needs hcg therapy and I just know he needs more but can`t give him the exact detalils I know you know... )

Can you lay it down for me please?

[declan]

I would normally recommend 500iu twice weekly while on and immediately after stopping start HCG EOD or ETD. You will need an AI along with it as well.
P

My cycle is pretty mild since I'm small :) I plan on using aromasin 12.5mg ed for 3 weeks and nolva at 20mg for 4 weeks. So, I need to run HCG for HCG EOD after last shot through out my PCT or just the first week?

[nitrous]

Hey P, a few questions about IGF1-LR3

1. if you get the peptide with 1 mg in a vial by itself can you mix it and then load up syringes and freeze them because it wont last in the fridge long enough to use it all?

2. Would it be worth running it during a PCT? still be able to train hard or train more like you normally would during PCT?

3. 10mcg's daily would that help with muscle gain and fat loss?

[nii]

Just have a question. So lets assume someone goes on a 16 week keto diet running 500mgs test. You often say that the best time to make great gains is coming off keto, for the next 10 or so weeks, as you slowly introduce carbs back. Now this confuses me. After running test for 16 weeks, isnt it implied that they would do a 8 week PCT? Now PCT usually means never training to failure and eating a fair amount of calories. How can someone make great gains after running keto if theyre never training to failure, diet is not necessarily a bulking diet AND their test levels are all out of whack. Is it implied that they DONT run PCT, continue the test, and switch to training to failure while introducing carbs?

[Vitamin S]

hey nitrous,

just from what i asked P, he said

1. it will last a month in the fridge with bac water so need to freeze and thaw them
2. it is usefull for pct
3. yah 10mcg is fine.

[nitrous]

hey nitrous,

just from what i asked P, he said

1. it will last a month in the fridge with bac water so need to freeze and thaw them
2. it is usefull for pct
3. yah 10mcg is fine.

seems so good for the price.. cant wait to give it a try... P i know you mentioned IM injection with it. by that you mean 1" 25g or you guys thinking like a 29-30g since its just water based?

[Praetorian]

Another hcg question for you Prae. That guy I told you about on another forum got some hcg but only got 2500 iu`s... Now he`s about 3 weeks in his clomid and has used 250 units twice. I told him 250 units eod wouldn`t be enough, but don`t know what else to tell him.

What would you advise him to do? He can get more hcg next week. I`m guessing he needs some bigger shots, like 1000 units at a time, and 10 000 units more to get him through this. What would you advise him to do with the clomid as well? He`s been using about 25-50 mg a day, with no impovements so far.

( His doc originally had him on androgel for a month and that`s why he`s on clomid to get his test back up and his body working normally. But as you said he needs hcg therapy and I just know he needs more but can`t give him the exact detalils I know you know... )

Can you lay it down for me please?

If he is having recovery issues the tell him to get more HCG and run the PCT protocol as it should be. Clomid should be run at 50mg twice daily for three weeks post HCG.
Ive posted the PCT protocol many times...just do a search youll find it.
P

[Praetorian]

My cycle is pretty mild since I'm small :) I plan on using aromasin 12.5mg ed for 3 weeks and nolva at 20mg for 4 weeks. So, I need to run HCG for HCG EOD after last shot through out my PCT or just the first week?

Being that you are young you may recover without hcg at the end. You can try it and see....i think you will be fine.
P

[Praetorian]

hey p, a few questions about igf1-lr3

1. If you get the peptide with 1 mg in a vial by itself can you mix it and then load up syringes and freeze them because it wont last in the fridge long enough to use it all? Yes that will work

2. Would it be worth running it during a pct? Still be able to train hard or train more like you normally would during pct? Fine during pct...train with less intensity and volume tho

3. 10mcg's daily would that help with muscle gain and fat loss?
muscle gain yes fat loss no...igf does not cause fat loss period
p

[Ritch]

If he is having recovery issues the tell him to get more HCG and run the PCT protocol as it should be. Clomid should be run at 50mg twice daily for three weeks post HCG.
Ive posted the PCT protocol many times...just do a search youll find it.
P

Found it!

After your last shot of test wait one week then start HCG 2000iu every third day for a total of 5 shots (10,000 iu). Concurrently with the HCG run 12.5mg aromasin ED. After the HCG is finished start clomid at 50mg twice daily for three weeks and continue with the aromasin. When finished with the clomid you can stop the aromasin.

Sounds like a kick ass plan!

[Praetorian]

Found it!

After your last shot of test wait one week then start HCG 2000iu every third day for a total of 5 shots (10,000 iu). Concurrently with the HCG run 12.5mg aromasin ED. After the HCG is finished start clomid at 50mg twice daily for three weeks and continue with the aromasin. When finished with the clomid you can stop the aromasin.

Sounds like a kick ass plan!

Get blood work done two weeks after clomid is finished.
P

[Ritch]

Get blood work done two weeks after clomid is finished.
P

I don`t know shit about blood work, what do you ask to get tested?

[Praetorian]

I don`t know shit about blood work, what do you ask to get tested?

Complete work up....but for him mostly test...free and bound.
P

[Ritch]

Complete work up....but for him mostly test...free and bound.
P

Thanks again for your time Prae!

[IronMan]

why do you suggest waiting 2 weeks after clomid is done to get blood work? Would waiting 5 days be fine?

[Praetorian]

why do you suggest waiting 2 weeks after clomid is done to get blood work? Would waiting 5 days be fine?

You need to wait a few weeks after clomid for a washout period....if you get blood work done too soon you are getting a residual effect from the clomid and LH will still be artificiallly high boosting test levels which are not indicative of recovery.
P

[Kaly11]

P

On the keto diet..instead of carbing up with food would one be able to have a few alcoholic beverages for the carb up while staying on the diet the rest of the day? or would this have some negative effects.

Thanks

[Praetorian]

P

On the keto diet..instead of carbing up with food would one be able to have a few alcoholic beverages for the carb up while staying on the diet the rest of the day? or would this have some negative effects.

Thanks

Im not sure if you are actually serious but if you are...no you cannot. For one thing you cannot carb up with alcohol as it does not replace glycogen stores and the cheat meal is designed as a surplus of good calories and glycogen to boost thyroid function.
Alcohol is empy calories.
P

[Kaly11]

Im not sure if you are actually serious but if you are...no you cannot. For one thing you cannot carb up with alcohol as it does not replace glycogen stores and the cheat meal is designed as a surplus of good calories and glycogen to boost thyroid function.
Alcohol is empy calories.
P

i now have proof in writing to show my buddy haha...thanks P

[Memo]

You might have already answered this question, sorry if you did, I tried to search but did not get any result.

Do you recommend maltodextrine, dextrose or wazy maze post workout, or a mix of all 3.

If so, how much should I use with 50g of protein powder.

what your opinion on Potato Starch or Swedish Oat Starch as a replacement to the popular malto-dextro combo post workout?
Thank you.

[Praetorian]

You might have already answered this question, sorry if you did, I tried to search but did not get any result.

Do you recommend maltodextrine, dextrose or wazy maze post workout, or a mix of all 3.

If so, how much should I use with 50g of protein powder.

what your opinion on Potato Starch or Swedish Oat Starch as a replacement to the popular malto-dextro combo post workout?
Thank you.

Using either one will work....waxy maize is the latest craze but to be quite honest the difference in using one over the other in the long term is negligible. The amount you use is dependant on your size and carb sensitivity.
P

[Memo]

Using either one will work....waxy maize is the latest craze but to be quite honest the difference in using one over the other in the long term is negligible. The amount you use is dependant on your size and carb sensitivity.
P

I am 165lbs 5"4 8%BF, ive been on a moderate to low carbs diet for the last 6 month. 75g is a good number to start?

[Vitamin S]

p,

is there any concerns in regards to getting diabetes if consuming dextrose pwo 5 days a week for years on end? i know sugar itself doens't cuase diabetes just wondering??

also how bout ussing slin? i was told it actually good since it gives the pancreas a rest if used post workout 4-6 weeks at a time with equal time off??

also at the gym i am sippping on whey isolate with dextrose to get more protin into my diet that way and i use the dextrose as a carb source and then i come home and have another dextrose/whey/creatine shake. is it okay to sip on dextrose with the protiein shake at the gym or should i opt for a different carb source to use with my protein shake while working out?



thx

[Praetorian]

I am 165lbs 5"4 8%BF, ive been on a moderate to low carbs diet for the last 6 month. 75g is a good number to start?

Probably much too high...I would start with 40-50g and see how it goes. Why are you on a diet for 6 months?
P

[Praetorian]

p,

is there any concerns in regards to getting diabetes if consuming dextrose pwo 5 days a week for years on end? i know sugar itself doens't cuase diabetes just wondering??

also how bout ussing slin? i was told it actually good since it gives the pancreas a rest if used post workout 4-6 weeks at a time with equal time off??

also at the gym i am sippping on whey isolate with dextrose to get more protin into my diet that way and i use the dextrose as a carb source and then i come home and have another dextrose/whey/creatine shake. is it okay to sip on dextrose with the protiein shake at the gym or should i opt for a different carb source to use with my protein shake while working out?



thx

Once per day is fine with PWO drinks..you also dont train everyday so it is not 7 days per week. Actuallly overdoing sugar intake is the direct cause of diabetes type 2...this is the very reason we see type 2 diabetic children these days....this was unheard of 20 years ago....as type 2 was also known as adult onset diabetes

Insulin does gve the pancreas a break...however it can also make you fat if you dont need it...it is not required...also another good reason to diet each year and strip off unwanted fat as well as reduce sugar intake for 16 weeks.

there is absolutely no need to sip protein and dextrose while training...that is what supplement companies would love you to believe. If you have a decent pre workout meal your glycogen and protein stores will not be tapped out in one training session...that will only make you fat

P

[Memo]

Probably much too high...I would start with 40-50g and see how it goes. Why are you on a diet for 6 months?
P

Not so much a diet but I watch my carbs intake and try to stay lean.

[Vitamin S]

Would just sipping on protein only b fine then just another way for me to get extra protein In ?

and what about if working out twice a day would u not have one of the pwo shakes then?? or is it fine to use dextrose in the pwo shake twice that day.

[Praetorian]

Would just sipping on protein only b fine then just another way for me to get extra protein In ?

and what about if working out twice a day would u not have one of the pwo shakes then?? or is it fine to use dextrose in the pwo shake twice that day.

When you are training you want the blood to be in the muscle trained not in the stomach....there is no need to drink protein while training....if you need to do that your diet is lacking. training twice per day for non genetic freaks is complete overtraining.
P

[Rrrrolla]

DO you like to run gh the last week of a show? Or do you usually drop it that week, or the in the weeks before?

[Praetorian]

DO you like to run gh the last week of a show? Or do you usually drop it that week, or the in the weeks before?

For women they need to drop the gh a few weeks out because they retain water on gh. For men it is kept in to keep the fullness and roundness of the muscle and as long as you arent over 4iu there should be no water issues.
P

[gingerbreadman]

High water intake with plenty of sodium = low aldosterone =no water retention. Limiting water and sodium = high aldosterone= water retention. Tapering water = increase in aldosterone = water retention. Carbs and fats are added back in dont worry about calories you are not putting on fat you are filling out. Your weight will probably drop friday as youll be losing water. You may gain some slightly over Thursday but Friday should even things out. If you need to make weight friday night for weigh and are close....stop water intake a bit earlier.
P

Just wanted to update you and thanks for the advice with my 1st show. I did water as you suggested ended it about 12 hrs before prejudjing with total of about 6L taken in Friday. You're right, when I cut sodium I dropped around 3 lbs allowing me to weigh in at two lbs under the class limit even after a 4,000 cal carb load Thursday. I did not junk load as you suggested. I had energy throughout the whole competition and maintained hardness. I didn't even have any real change in bowel movements which you would expect with the typical water limitations of a competition weekend.

So just wanted to thank you for the advice as I took yours as opposed to many others who suggested I taper water over three days and shut it off around noon Friday then cram anything I could get my hands on down my throat G.I. index sodium content nothing mattered according to that persons advice. Yours made more sense and I went with it and was very happy with the results. My conditioning was great. Now I just need more size and posing practice to place higher next time. I placed 5th of 8 in my class.:greet

[Praetorian]

Just wanted to update you and thanks for the advice with my 1st show. I did water as you suggested ended it about 12 hrs before prejudjing with total of about 6L taken in Friday. You're right, when I cut sodium I dropped around 3 lbs allowing me to weigh in at two lbs under the class limit even after a 4,000 cal carb load Thursday. I did not junk load as you suggested. I had energy throughout the whole competition and maintained hardness. I didn't even have any real change in bowel movements which you would expect with the typical water limitations of a competition weekend.

So just wanted to thank you for the advice as I took yours as opposed to many others who suggested I taper water over three days and shut it off around noon Friday then cram anything I could get my hands on down my throat G.I. index sodium content nothing mattered according to that persons advice. Yours made more sense and I went with it and was very happy with the results. My conditioning was great. Now I just need more size and posing practice to place higher next time. I placed 5th of 8 in my class.:greet

Glad to help and congrats on making the top 5!

The thing with final week prep is by that time all the work should have been done and you should be extremely lean and dry. Most guys who complain about water retention are sadly mistaken...they arent in shape yet. Pulling water, carbing up, sodium intake etc are all fine tuning to an already perfected physique...it is not a drastic change. Yiu have to learn to work with the body not against it and you will always be successful.

Some things to remember...
1. You cannot carb up properly without sodium and water
2. You should never use an aldosterone inhibitor as it will mess with sodium reabsorbtion, not good for blood pressure or pumps or vascularity
2. Blood pressure equals pump equals vascularity...sodium controls blood pressure
3. Over loading carbs is a huge mistake...then trying to pull out the excess water is a crap shoot at best
4. Loading up on junk is a disaster waiting to happen
5.water is stopped 12-18 hours before no sooner(unless you are borderline making weight)
6. tapering water increase aldosterone equals retaining water...never taper water
7 when it comes to diuretics less is usually more...if you are dropping 10lbs or more of water...guess what its coming from muscle tissue
8. once water is dropped reintroduce sodium to the diet

P

[Hugheser]

Just wanted to update you and thanks for the advice with my 1st show. I did water as you suggested ended it about 12 hrs before prejudjing with total of about 6L taken in Friday. You're right, when I cut sodium I dropped around 3 lbs allowing me to weigh in at two lbs under the class limit even after a 4,000 cal carb load Thursday. I did not junk load as you suggested. I had energy throughout the whole competition and maintained hardness. I didn't even have any real change in bowel movements which you would expect with the typical water limitations of a competition weekend.

So just wanted to thank you for the advice as I took yours as opposed to many others who suggested I taper water over three days and shut it off around noon Friday then cram anything I could get my hands on down my throat G.I. index sodium content nothing mattered according to that persons advice. Yours made more sense and I went with it and was very happy with the results. My conditioning was great. Now I just need more size and posing practice to place higher next time. I placed 5th of 8 in my class.:greet

Which show bro?

[gingerbreadman]

Nova Scotia's - light middleweight

Thanks again great advice Prae.

#8 is new to me though ;-)

next time

Also, I never did ask for advice on what to do after Friday prep. SO Sat I just used common sense figured a nRDA of sodium wouldn't hurt me nor wuld sipping water. No huge meals just snacking with carbs the main goal throwing in some protein too. I wound up drinking 1/2 L water after prejudjing and another 3/4 litre 15 min before night show along with 9 Reese PB cups then got a pump on. My chest arms and shoulders were a roadmap. Backstage photographer got a couple of me before I went out. During the day I also drank a bottle Coke Zero and had 4 9pc trays of suishi but eliminated the soy sauce for fear it may bloat me with the bit of water I was drinking. Also had some trail mix bananas pinapple & chocolate & eggs & chicken during the day.

Maybe I should have had NO WATER. But doing what I did I had energy all day - if I lost sharpness in the PM it wasn't enough to notice.

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

i know on a keto diet dave recommends to keep heart rate at 120 or below or else you use muscle glycogen and not body fat as fuel to burn fat off when doing cardio

is the same true if someone was dieting with carbs in there diet would they also keep there heart rate at 120 or below or can they go higher?

thanks

[Praetorian]

hey p,

i know on a keto diet dave recommends to keep heart rate at 120 or below or else you use muscle glycogen and not body fat as fuel to burn fat off when doing cardio

is the same true if someone was dieting with carbs in there diet would they also keep there heart rate at 120 or below or can they go higher?

thanks

Between 120-130 is fine. You cannot use muscle glycogen because there isnt any...therefore if doing HIT cardio on keto the body will convert amino acids into glucose via gluconeogenesis. If doing low carb HIT is possible because you have glycogen to spare.
P

[gingerbreadman]

Prae,

Last few days I've been retaining water worse than ever mainly in my lower body. Today I'm also experiencing symptoms of high blood pressure, shortness of breath, dizzyness, feeling like my head's going to blow off. I haven't measured my B.P. yet

Let me explain a few factors and maybe you can help me figure out what's going on & what I should do.

Leading up to last Sat contest, I had sodium at 5,000mgs/day. Friday lowered to 1,000 but post weigh in around 10PM likley took in another 500-1,000. Sat likley took in 2,500 up to evening show then from 8-4AM likley took in alot from candy & McDonalds Etc

Sunday did some more junk eating esp at night candy ice cream etc

Monday was clean until evening then more candy/ice cream before bed (really starting to retain water now)

Tuesday to today was clean eating 2,800-3,000 cals about 3,400mgs sodium or less 6L water, low G.I. index 160grams of carbs or less.

No exercise since the show just resting.

Leading up to show did an 8 week cycle.

Last week before show was
Test-E 250mg M,F
Tren-A 100mg M,W,F
Masteron 100mg M,W,F
winstrol 50 MG ED ending Sat
Arimidex 1ml/day

Since Sat had 1ml arimidex EOD or less and 1 shot test-E 250mg Wednesday (yesterday)

Thanks

[Praetorian]

Prae,

Last few days I've been retaining water worse than ever mainly in my lower body. Today I'm also experiencing symptoms of high blood pressure, shortness of breath, dizzyness, feeling like my head's going to blow off. I haven't measured my B.P. yet

Let me explain a few factors and maybe you can help me figure out what's going on & what I should do.

Leading up to last Sat contest, I had sodium at 5,000mgs/day. Friday lowered to 1,000 but post weigh in around 10PM likley took in another 500-1,000. Sat likley took in 2,500 up to evening show then from 8-4AM likley took in alot from candy & McDonalds Etc

Sunday did some more junk eating esp at night candy ice cream etc

Monday was clean until evening then more candy/ice cream before bed (really starting to retain water now)

Tuesday to today was clean eating 2,800-3,000 cals about 3,400mgs sodium or less 6L water, low G.I. index 160grams of carbs or less.

No exercise since the show just resting.

Leading up to show did an 8 week cycle.

Last week before show was
Test-E 250mg M,F
Tren-A 100mg M,W,F
Masteron 100mg M,W,F
winstrol 50 MG ED ending Sat
Arimidex 1ml/day

Since Sat had 1ml arimidex EOD or less and 1 shot test-E 250mg Wednesday (yesterday)

Thanks

You have what is known as peripheral edema...it can be quite dangerous actually as it makes the heart work extremely hard to get the blood to and from the lower extremeties. The reason you have this is you are eating way too many carbs. Clean or not it doesnt matter. Your body will take 4-6 weeks after a contest to be able to process carbohydrate efficiently again. In thsi time you have to reintroduce carbs very slowly and in small amounts as to not stress the body. 30g carbs every other meal for 2 weeks...followed by 30g per meal for 2 weeks....then you shoudl be able to raise the amount. What you need to do is drop carbs for 2-3 days...keep water high and sodium moderate...once the water comes out you need to start eating carbs as above.
P

[gingerbreadman]

Thanks for the quick reply you're a bloody genious. After I posted my question to you I registered myself in the ER in the hospital. Told them everything I was on so I'm soon gonna have some doc lecturing me about steroids. Anyway so far my BP was 132 over 71 and resting. Heartrate 99!!! Plus all the nurses say I look peekid in color. Waiting for ekg and bloodwork right now. Bloodwork should be interesting. Ill tell them what you said. Thanks again

[steve_d]

was it your first show?? I bet you 9 out of 10 competitors have the same level of rebound! can be scary, but It'll pass in time

[gingerbreadman]

Yes my 1st show crazy sport lol. Also my blood sugars were reasonable 7.3

[gingerbreadman]

Ok so I've been admitted to hospithal. My hemoglobin is 60*% of normal. The result of some black stools I've experienced since sat am after taking a laxitive. About to have my 1st blood transfusion....

[jamex]

You have what is known as peripheral edema...it can be quite dangerous actually as it makes the heart work extremely hard to get the blood to and from the lower extremeties. The reason you have this is you are eating way too many carbs. Clean or not it doesnt matter. Your body will take 4-6 weeks after a contest to be able to process carbohydrate efficiently again. In thsi time you have to reintroduce carbs very slowly and in small amounts as to not stress the body. 30g carbs every other meal for 2 weeks...followed by 30g per meal for 2 weeks....then you shoudl be able to raise the amount. What you need to do is drop carbs for 2-3 days...keep water high and sodium moderate...once the water comes out you need to start eating carbs as above.
P

Hey Prae, assuming the above is applicable to anyone coming off of keto, how should training be done during this 4-6 week period? I've read there's an anabolic period where you can make some decent gains at the end of a diet, but is this 4-6 week period possible to really gain or is it more about recovery? Been meaning to clarify this for a while as I'm approaching the final weeks of keto myself. Right now I've just been training to maintain strength and not lose muscle, but I'm looking forward to kicking my ass with some real workouts again. Should I wait until I've adjusted to carbs and can take in adequate amounts before I turn up the training?

Thanks.

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae, assuming the above is applicable to anyone coming off of keto, how should training be done during this 4-6 week period? I've read there's an anabolic period where you can make some decent gains at the end of a diet, but is this 4-6 week period possible to really gain or is it more about recovery? Been meaning to clarify this for a while as I'm approaching the final weeks of keto myself. Right now I've just been training to maintain strength and not lose muscle, but I'm looking forward to kicking my ass with some real workouts again. Should I wait until I've adjusted to carbs and can take in adequate amounts before I turn up the training?

Thanks.

This not only applies to keto but also to the traditional low carb approach. You have to be careful with reintroducing carbs and the amount of carbs specifically once you finish dieting. There is a approx a 6 week window after dieting that is known as the anabolic rebound. Your body is prime to absorb most macronutrients(carbs in small amounts) and you will gain significant lean mass as long as you dont over do things. Its also a time of recovery so your training shouldnt be max effort or pushing for personal bests etc. You need to let your strength gradually come back....plus its not about max weight...just keeping a training stimulus at this time is enough. No forced reps, no maxxing out, no HIT. This time is also great to run PCT as you will avoid the whole crash period if done correctly and still keep gaining. Once you have fully recovered with blood work to prove it...you can then hit the weights with full intensity. Immediately after the contest you should take a full week off the gym and just rest. Your CNS has taken a huge hit from all the dieting etc and needs to recover as well.
P

[JacktheThriller]

hey prae

doing intense contruction work in may, do you think i keep up good intensity through the day on keto?

[z83]

This not only applies to keto but also to the traditional low carb approach. You have to be careful with reintroducing carbs and the amount of carbs specifically once you finish dieting. There is a approx a 6 week window after dieting that is known as the anabolic rebound. Your body is prime to absorb most macronutrients(carbs in small amounts) and you will gain significant lean mass as long as you dont over do things. Its also a time of recovery so your training shouldnt be max effort or pushing for personal bests etc. You need to let your strength gradually come back....plus its not about max weight...just keeping a training stimulus at this time is enough. No forced reps, no maxxing out, no HIT. This time is also great to run PCT as you will avoid the whole crash period if done correctly and still keep gaining. Once you have fully recovered with blood work to prove it...you can then hit the weights with full intensity. Immediately after the contest you should take a full week off the gym and just rest. Your CNS has taken a huge hit from all the dieting etc and needs to recover as well.
P

nice !

It's optimal to stop keto diet, begin PCT, reintroduce carbs slowly or wait few weeks after reintroducing carbs ?

What about week off for "regular BBer" not competiting/after a contest

Thanks

[btufts]

hey prae

doing intense contruction work in may, do you think i keep up good intensity through the day on keto?

No!! I'll vouch for this one, last week of dietting i started a new job working as a laborer with brick layers... passed out many times during the day, puked at lunch time and almost fell off the scaffolding... done with that job.