Q&A with Praetorian - National Level Competitor

[Praetorian]

Thanks ...

I thought having to use at least 1 gram of testosterone per week.
The addition of tren would be a better combination with test enanthate and equipoise for adding mass?

I thought that at some level, it was common to cycles 20-24 weeks or more?

Thank again.

If you are a National level athlete than 1g test would be common....if you dont have as much cycle experience than you dont need as high a dose. It all depends on what you have done up to this point. Yes tren would help...but again it all depends on your level....most intermediate BB wont need more than test and EQ at one time. 16 week scycle are standard even at the pro level...20-24 weeks doesnt improve gains it only makes PCT that much more difficult.
P

[Praetorian]

Prae..say someone only wants to diet 6 weeks and wants to lose fat very quickly.He has clen,t3,500mgs of Test E and is doing the keto diet along with cardio.In your opinion can he go up to 3lbs of fat loss a week without losing any muscle?

In your opinion and with what you have observed with your clients,whats the maximum one can lose a week without sacraficing muscle?I know they say 2lbs is safe,but can we go higher than that?

Thanks!

Yes 3lbs is fine without losing muscle. It is all relative to the size of the person and the week of the diet. A larger person will tend to lose more the first few weeks because relativley speaking they retain more water via glycogen. Some guys lose 10-14lbs in the first two weeks....mostly water....some fat...no muscle. Ive seen 4-5 lb drops per week when I remove fats from the diet and go proten/veg and no muscle loss again. You have to remember it is very difficult to lose muscle on a keto diet because the body doesnt want glycogen...thus if you dont do HIT cardio you will retain most of not all your muscle.
P

[z83]

hey P,

Is it better to wait week 2 for cheat meal ?

[jamex]

Yes they definitely can. Try to take your vitamins etc away from fibre supps if possible.
P

as i suspected. what about fish oil? still best to avoid taking with fibre supps?

Also can fibre supplements cause macros to go undigested (keto diet)?

[Praetorian]

as i suspected. what about fish oil? still best to avoid taking with fibre supps?

Also can fibre supplements cause macros to go undigested (keto diet)?

I would take all vitamin type supps away from fibre just to be safe. Macros would be unaffected.
P

[Praetorian]

hey P,

Is it better to wait week 2 for cheat meal ?

It is essential to wait two weeks before a cheat meal...your body will get into ketosis in 72 hours but it wont want to remain running on ketones until after two weeks....ingesting glycogen before this time messes things up.
P

[rickyboy36]

It is essential to wait two weeks before a cheat meal...your body will get into ketosis in 72 hours but it wont want to remain running on ketones until after two weeks....ingesting glycogen before this time messes things up.
P

If one was doing well..could he skip his cheat meal and do it every second week instead?

[Praetorian]

If one was doing well..could he skip his cheat meal and do it every second week instead?

That would slow progress...the cheat meal is essential to keep thyroid levels up.
The only time the cheat meal is removed is usually the last four weeks.
P

[rickyboy36]

That would slow progress...the cheat meal is essential to keep thyroid levels up.
The only time the cheat meal is removed is usually the last four weeks.
P

Thats what i have trouble understanding.If one is taking t3..isnt his thyroid in "check" so to speak?

[Praetorian]

Thats what i have trouble understanding.If one is taking t3..isnt his thyroid in "check" so to speak?
His exogenous thyroid levels would be artificially high yes...but endogenous levels will fall. As well the body needs the glycogen for training purposes...you cannot use ketones to train.
P

[z83]

It is essential to wait two weeks before a cheat meal...your body will get into ketosis in 72 hours but it wont want to remain running on ketones until after two weeks....ingesting glycogen before this time messes things up.
P

i'm waiting next week end then...say next sunday ?
I've started the diet on monday

Thanks

z83

[rickyboy36]

His exogenous thyroid levels would be artificially high yes...but endogenous levels will fall. As well the body needs the glycogen for training purposes...you cannot use ketones to train.
P

Ok,I see.I just thought that endogenous levels were shut down completely.

[natenator]

P: on keto... green peppers ok as a fiberous carb source instead of just a green salad??

[Praetorian]

i'm waiting next week end then...say next sunday ?
I've started the diet on monday

Thanks

z83

Saturday or Sunday would be fine.
P

[Praetorian]

Ok,I see.I just thought that endogenous levels were shut down completely.

Not fully....thats why when you eat carbs you will feel quite warm and usually start sweating.
P

[Praetorian]

P: on keto... green peppers ok as a fiberous carb source instead of just a green salad??

Peppers are not a good choice... a bit too high in carbs....try asparagus, green beans, broccoli, romaine.
P

[rickyboy36]

Yesterday,almost all day i was getting these dizzy spells and really feeling light headed to the point where i thought i was going to faint while doing cardio.I was also extremely hungry and never felt this hungry in a long time.Its going to be 2 weeks now that i havent ate any carbs and tomorrow is my cheat meal.What does this mean?Does it mean im dew to eat carbs?Or does this just happen out of the blue like that sometimes?

[Praetorian]

Yesterday,almost all day i was getting these dizzy spells and really feeling light headed to the point where i thought i was going to faint while doing cardio.I was also extremely hungry and never felt this hungry in a long time.Its going to be 2 weeks now that i havent ate any carbs and tomorrow is my cheat meal.What does this mean?Does it mean im dew to eat carbs?Or does this just happen out of the blue like that sometimes?

Yes you are due for your cheat meal. The hunger will come and go...how long since your last meal...if it is over three hours your blood sugar may be very low...were you doing cardio after training?
P

[z83]

I bought some crytal light...many boxes in fact :)

The taste is awesome but is that really no sugar. I read aspartame and acesulfame-potassium so it should mean no sugar/fructose right ?

[natenator]

I bought some crytal light...many boxes in fact :)

The taste is awesome but is that really no sugar. I read aspartame and acesulfame-potassium so it should mean no sugar/fructose right ?
you want to limit consumption of crystal lite. I was up to about 3L/day and the rest was water (about 3L-5L water)

[z83]

you want to limit consumption of crystal lite. I was up to about 3L/day and the rest was water (about 3L-5L water)

that's exactly what i'm doing right now. Filled a 4L bottle with 2 sachets good for 1.5L each. Will stay at 2 sachets a day (good for 3L) Thanks !

[rickyboy36]

I bought some crytal light...many boxes in fact :)

The taste is awesome but is that really no sugar. I read aspartame and acesulfame-potassium so it should mean no sugar/fructose right ?

I buy the 10 serving sachets ones.They have 1 carb per serving so i try to limit myslef to about 4 a day..spread out through the day.The rest of the time i drink water and diet decaffeinated sodas with zero carbs

[rickyboy36]

Yes you are due for your cheat meal. The hunger will come and go...how long since your last meal...if it is over three hours your blood sugar may be very low...were you doing cardio after training?
P

No,i didnt train that yesterday.It was just during cardio..and i felt it almost as soon as i walked on the treadmill.But today,im perfectly fine.I trained delts,tri,bi and did a bit of cardio.I do feel a bit more tired than usuall..but a lot better than yesterday.Do i still wait for my cheat meal tomorrow night?

[Praetorian]

No,i didnt train that yesterday.It was just during cardio..and i felt it almost as soon as i walked on the treadmill.But today,im perfectly fine.I trained delts,tri,bi and did a bit of cardio.I do feel a bit more tired than usuall..but a lot better than yesterday.Do i still wait for my cheat meal tomorrow night?

Yes cheat meal either tomorrow or staurday night.
P

[rickyboy36]

Im practically counting the minutes to my cheat meal right now,but at the same time,the idea of eating soooo much kinda makes me a bit hesitant.

Prae,tell me if this is allowed or ok:

1-Staring with my 4th meal until meal 5,im gonna cut fats out completely.The idea here is to save around 650 calories at the end of the day seeing i will be eating alot in meal#6 and let my body burn my fat as fuel.Also,there will be less fat in my system once the BIG insulin spike is initiated

2-Im incredibly hungry,and i know that i will go through 500grams of carbs very easily,so i would like to add some fibre to my meal to keep the craving down afterwards.This is what i was thinking:

My cheat meal will be 500g carbs and 40gr of protein.This amounts to 2160 calories.There might be 10gr of fat in there as well..BUT NO MORE and ill probably try for less.Out of those 500g..i will get in 450g from sugar(white bread,caramel spread,pancakes,syrop and a bit of gatorade) and i would like to add in for 50grams of OATMEAL.Will the oatmeal make my return into ketosis suffer?Cause if you say yes,but only for an hour or two..i could probably live with it:P.Plus, i figured that the 450g carb rush would be good enough to get my T3 going again :)

your thoughts?

[natenator]

Im practically counting the minutes to my cheat meal right now,but at the same time,the idea of eating soooo much kinda makes me a bit hesitant.

Prae,tell me if this is allowed or ok:

1-Staring with my 4th meal until meal 5,im gonna cut fats out completely.The idea here is to save around 650 calories at the end of the day seeing i will be eating alot in meal#6 and let my body burn my fat as fuel.Also,there will be less fat in my system once the BIG insulin spike is initiated

2-Im incredibly hungry,and i know that i will go through 500grams of carbs very easily,so i would like to add some fibre to my meal to keep the craving down afterwards.This is what i was thinking:

My cheat meal will be 500g carbs and 40gr of protein.This amounts to 2160 calories.There might be 10gr of fat in there as well..BUT NO MORE and ill probably try for less.Out of those 500g..i will get in 450g from sugar(white bread,caramel spread,pancakes,syrop and a bit of gatorade) and i would like to add in for 50grams of OATMEAL.Will the oatmeal make my return into ketosis suffer?Cause if you say yes,but only for an hour or two..i could probably live with it:P.Plus, i figured that the 450g carb rush would be good enough to get my T3 going again :)

your thoughts?
P advises 500 but also advises you eat until you are full.

I made this mistake many times in that I would try to consume the 500 grams but was soo full it was not funny. Vascular and pumped like you wouldn't believe (lol) but stomach ready to pop full.

Then he told me to eat until I was felt full and this worked a lot better. Sure I wasn't hitting the 500 grams but I mentally and physically just felt better and it helped control the cravings I had the next day or so.

It was the cravings I had the day or 2 after the cheat meal which I did not like about the cheat meal. I just wanted to keep eating that stuff.

[rickyboy36]

P advises 500 but also advises you eat until you are full.

I made this mistake many times in that I would try to consume the 500 grams but was soo full it was not funny. Vascular and pumped like you wouldn't believe (lol) but stomach ready to pop full.

Then he told me to eat until I was felt full and this worked a lot better. Sure I wasn't hitting the 500 grams but I mentally and physically just felt better and it helped control the cravings I had the next day or so.

It was the cravings I had the day or 2 after the cheat meal which I did not like about the cheat meal. I just wanted to keep eating that stuff.

Wow,im rather surprised to be honest.I would of thought that everything would go down rather easily..loll.One thing i know for sure is that i can eat bowls and bowls of cereal(frosted flakes) and get in that amount on a normal day.Maybe its because our stomach has shrunk somewhat from not cramming in so much food?

But say for arguments sake i was still hungry,would 50 grams of oatmeal be allowed?

[nii]

Are there any sleep aids you use when fighting insomnia (while on Tren)?

[Praetorian]

Wow,im rather surprised to be honest.I would of thought that everything would go down rather easily..loll.One thing i know for sure is that i can eat bowls and bowls of cereal(frosted flakes) and get in that amount on a normal day.Maybe its because our stomach has shrunk somewhat from not cramming in so much food?

But say for arguments sake i was still hungry,would 50 grams of oatmeal be allowed?

Oatmeal is fine....dont change or alter your other meals....you are making things more complicated then they need to be....just have your cheat meal instead of meal 6 and you are good. Eat until you are full....dont go crazy or you will be very uncomfortable...your stomach has shrunk a bit already....just enjoy the meal...dont make it a punishment.
P

[Praetorian]

Are there any sleep aids you use when fighting insomnia (while on Tren)?

Somalyze works well....its from Species Nutrition....it contain gaba and melatonin.
P

[btufts]

I'm playing around with my cheat meals every weak to see what kind of foods make everything pop out, last night I ate a large donair sub with the works on white sub bread, I ate until my stomach wanted to pop out and today I look great! I was wondering if the carb up meal before the contest would be any different??

[Praetorian]

I'm playing around with my cheat meals every weak to see what kind of foods make everything pop out, last night I ate a large donair sub with the works on white sub bread, I ate until my stomach wanted to pop out and today I look great! I was wondering if the carb up meal before the contest would be any different??

You carb up before the contest with controlled foods...like rice...not a cheat meal...that is not a time to mess with things.
P

[rickyboy36]

I did my carbup last night and man was it ever good!!!I managed to get in the 500 carbs,but just barely(4 toasts with 30grams of caramel spread,4 cups of 1% milk,4 bowls of frosted flakes,and 3 pancakes with 75 grams of corn syrop on top..mmmm).No way was there room for some oatmeal..lol.Maybe the reason why i succeeded was because i limited myself to carbs and protein only(maybe around 10 grams max with the traces of fat in the milk and bread).

A couple of things concerned me.My heart afterwards was beating like crazy and i was feeling "hot" to the point i slept with no covers on me and it gets pretty cold there at night with no heating..lol.But the heart pounding was weird seeing that it never really happens after a meal.

I also woke up this in the middle of the night,and i was still feeling full,like my stomack was bulging out.Plus this morning im holding water under the skin which kinda tells me i might of spilt over.Do you think I consumed too many carbs?I have to admit,i wasnt forcing my self at the end,but it was close.

Thanks!

[Praetorian]

I did my carbup last night and man was it ever good!!!I managed to get in the 500 carbs,but just barely(4 toasts with 30grams of caramel spread,4 cups of 1% milk,4 bowls of frosted flakes,and 3 pancakes with 75 grams of corn syrop on top..mmmm).No way was there room for some oatmeal..lol.Maybe the reason why i succeeded was because i limited myself to carbs and protein only(maybe around 10 grams max with the traces of fat in the milk and bread).

A couple of things concerned me.My heart afterwards was beating like crazy and i was feeling "hot" to the point i slept with no covers on me and it gets pretty cold there at night with no heating..lol.But the heart pounding was weird seeing that it never really happens after a meal.

I also woke up this in the middle of the night,and i was still feeling full,like my stomack was bulging out.Plus this morning im holding water under the skin which kinda tells me i might of spilt over.Do you think I consumed too many carbs?I have to admit,i wasnt forcing my self at the end,but it was close.

Thanks!

You probably went overboard yes...but youll know better next time. Remember your questions about endogenous thyroid and eating carbs....the heat you felt was an increase in thyroid from all the carbs...also remember thyroid has a direct affect on cardiac output. Dont worry about the water it will dissipate ina day or so.
P

[Neavris]

Hey preatorian, thanks for this thread, I learn a lot from it. I'd like to know, with the cardiowhile following the keto diet, what type of training do you recommend in terms of frequency and poundage? Do you change the intensity as the weeks go by as you increase the cardio?

[Praetorian]

Hey preatorian, thanks for this thread, I learn a lot from it. I'd like to know, with the cardiowhile following the keto diet, what type of training do you recommend in terms of frequency and poundage? Do you change the intensity as the weeks go by as you increase the cardio?

Cardio is increased each week or two depending on condition. Training should be HIT heavy as possible in a safe rep range...ie no lower then 5 ...I prefer one muscle group trained each day 5 days per week split.
P

[z83]

Hi P,

What's a good alternative to keto diet ? I'm on day 6 of keto and can't get rid of an intense headache. I feel horrible and can't train with that headache. I've seen a thread from jersey#8 saying cut carbs pm. I think I might switch and "cut" in the long run rather than feeling like shit/sick. This may not be as effective as keto but i'm not competitor...only wanted to shed some fat.

Would you add something on 500mg test / week. T3, clen, lipoex or keep it simple ?

Thanks a lot...again !

[Talo]

Training should be HIT heavy as possible in a safe rep range...ie no lower then 5 ...

LOL ! I am slowly going this way because I'm just not recovering as much and I've never been this sore. I need to re-train my thinking and start doing 10-15 rep range again . Been a Long time since I've done anything ( major compound ) over 5 .

[rickyboy36]

Hi P,

What's a good alternative to keto diet ? I'm on day 6 of keto and can't get rid of an intense headache. I feel horrible and can't train with that headache. I've seen a thread from jersey#8 saying cut carbs pm. I think I might switch and "cut" in the long run rather than feeling like shit/sick. This may not be as effective as keto but i'm not competitor...only wanted to shed some fat.

Would you add something on 500mg test / week. T3, clen, lipoex or keep it simple ?

Thanks a lot...again !

Bro..give it another 5-6 days.It will eventually kick and it will go easy from there.It took me almost 13 days before i felt "normal again"Its the best way to go and you will be almost as strong as when bulking..believe me.If after 2 weeks you are still feeling like shit..then switch over--if not give it a chance.You'll be happy you did!!

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

What's a good alternative to keto diet ? I'm on day 6 of keto and can't get rid of an intense headache. I feel horrible and can't train with that headache. I've seen a thread from jersey#8 saying cut carbs pm. I think I might switch and "cut" in the long run rather than feeling like shit/sick. This may not be as effective as keto but i'm not competitor...only wanted to shed some fat.

Would you add something on 500mg test / week. T3, clen, lipoex or keep it simple ?

Thanks a lot...again !

6 days is not long enough for your body to fuly adjust....even though you are in ketosis...it takes about two weeks. The headaches will go away...use some advil in the meantime. I am not sure what your diet is...post it if you can....id be interested in seeing it.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

does running clen with PCT help retain more muscle/gains?....... also if my PCT is 5 weeks long when should I start the clen.......... at what dosage and how should I ramp up and down......................***never used clen before

Yes clen is anticatabolic so it would make sense to use it during PCT. Start it day one...you shouldnt need more than 50-60mcg daily....no need to ramp up. Take 25-30mcg twice daily...morning anf afternoon.
P

[gsxr750]

Hi P;

In your experience how anti-catabolic is clen VS say Test? Do people do well dieting down and maintaining muscle with just clen / good diet and cardio?

[Benny62]

Hi P, I recently returned from Mexico where i injected 1000mg Nebido and 500mg Primoteston to front load as suggested. I was planing on following up with 2 more Nebido shots every 4 weeks. I added the 8ml of nebido to 4ml B12 inject in a mlti use vial to clear customs.

1. will this nebido be ok to use after mixed with the b12 in a sterile multi use vial?

2. is one week 500mg of primoteston enough of a front load?

3. I will also be adding var or winny and running the dave p diet again because i need to drop some serious BF and i need to be strict on test or i look like a water balloon.

[Praetorian]

Hi P;

In your experience how anti-catabolic is clen VS say Test? Do people do well dieting down and maintaining muscle with just clen / good diet and cardio?

Clen vs Test is not a fair comparison you are comparing two completely different compounds. Clen can be considered anti-catabolic however it is not anabolic in humans. Test however would be considered a true anabolic which does help immensely when it comes to muscle catabolism. A natural athlete who just wants to use clen will see great results in fat loss and muscle retention while on a keto diet especially. However with test you are going to see a much stronger transformaiton mostly due to the change in physique shape and hardness from the androgens...and the obvious muscle retention as well.
P

[Praetorian]

Hi P, I recently returned from Mexico where i injected 1000mg Nebido and 500mg Primoteston to front load as suggested. I was planing on following up with 2 more Nebido shots every 4 weeks. I added the 8ml of nebido to 4ml B12 inject in a mlti use vial to clear customs.

1. will this nebido be ok to use after mixed with the b12 in a sterile multi use vial? I DONT THINK THE B12 WOULD DAMAGE THE NEBIDO AT ALL, NEBIDO IS TESTOSTERON UNDECANOATE IN INJECTABLE FORM...THE OLD ANDRIOL IS THE SAME BUT IN ORAL FORM...NEVER CONSIDERED A GREAT ANABOLIC FOR MEN

2. is one week 500mg of primoteston enough of a front load? USUALLY A FRONT LOAD WOULD BE MORE THEN YOU WOULD USE WEEKLY SO IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR WEEKLY DOSAGE WILL BE...IF DIETING 500MG WEEKLY IS PERFECTLY FINE

3. I will also be adding var or winny and running the dave p diet again because i need to drop some serious BF and i need to be strict on test or i look like a water balloon.
500 TEST WEEKLY WILL AROMATIZE VERY LITTLE...ON A KETO DIET IF YOU DROP ENOUGH BODY FAT YOU WILL BE VERY HARD ON TEST ONLY...WINNY WILL HELP COSMETICALL NEAR THE END OF THE DIET ONLY.


P

[Vitamin S]

Hey P,

i injured my left shoulder doing chest a few weeks back and its not getting better. i did drop the intensity and frequency of my chest workout but it kills. i have a hard time benching flat like it starts to kill around 225lbs and upwards. incline i have not too much trouble? also when i do incline bench with dumbells, i can tell as soon as i get up to 100lb dumbells in each hand the strength loss in the left arm is very noticable as it goes up half as fast as my right arm does.

best way to describe it, when sitting in an office chair if i try to put my hands on the arm rest and get up it kills on top of the shoulder joint where the trap meets the shoulder insertion point.

i also can still shoulder press farily heavy weird?

it mostly kills when flat benching and doing dips, i can't even go half way down when attempting a dip, feelsl ike my shoulders gonna come out.

any suggestions, as for now im scared to lose strength and size, so i still workout but lighter and just ice it aftwards.

ive seen a chiroproactor he just adjusted it and it felt loose and ok at the time, but next day it stiffened again.

really hampering my workouts, and want it fixed asap.

thanks

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

i injured my left shoulder doing chest a few weeks back and its not getting better. i did drop the intensity and frequency of my chest workout but it kills. i have a hard time benching flat like it starts to kill around 225lbs and upwards. incline i have not too much trouble? also when i do incline bench with dumbells, i can tell as soon as i get up to 100lb dumbells in each hand the strength loss in the left arm is very noticable as it goes up half as fast as my right arm does.

best way to describe it, when sitting in an office chair if i try to put my hands on the arm rest and get up it kills on top of the shoulder joint where the trap meets the shoulder insertion point.

i also can still shoulder press farily heavy weird?

it mostly kills when flat benching and doing dips, i can't even go half way down when attempting a dip, feelsl ike my shoulders gonna come out.

any suggestions, as for now im scared to lose strength and size, so i still workout but lighter and just ice it aftwards.

ive seen a chiroproactor he just adjusted it and it felt loose and ok at the time, but next day it stiffened again.

really hampering my workouts, and want it fixed asap.

thanks

A regular chiro isnt going to help....you need to see someone ASAP who is fluent in ART....that will really help with only only a few session. Use ice on it regularily, Pennsaid topically as well, advil before bed.
Also you may want to stop flat benching for a few weeks and use the incline only if that doesnt hurt. Give it a rest and get some ART soon.
P

[Delt King]

A regular chiro isnt going to help....you need to see someone ASAP who is fluent in ART....that will really help with only only a few session. Use ice on it regularily, Pennsaid topically as well, advil before bed.
Also you may want to stop flat benching for a few weeks and use the incline only if that doesnt hurt. Give it a rest and get some ART soon.
P

Man i certainly hope everyone on this board appreciates the kind of advice you give big guy for free. Green for you!

[Praetorian]

Thanks DK...I hope so to.
P

[IronMan]

Man i certainly hope everyone on this board appreciates the kind of advice you give big guy for free. Green for you!

I totally agree! This guy has been a HUGE blessing to this board with his incredible amount of knowledge, experience, and passion for helping others. I have so much respect for this guy its not even funny lol. Thanks P!!

[Praetorian]

Welcome...I was blessed to be able to train and learn from some top guys in BB and PL...so I try to give back as I was given.
P

[nii]

If my memory serves me, your birthday is in January. If it has passed or still upcoming, happy birthday mate.

[Rhinobolt10]

Hey man, just wondering what your opinion is on Kefei vs Somatropin.

Do you feel someone might have to take more kefei to get the same effect as Somas?

I've had a buddy that got really bad welts from shots of kefeis, have you heard anything about that?

[Praetorian]

If my memory serves me, your birthday is in January. If it has passed or still upcoming, happy birthday mate.

Thanks it was last Friday!
P

[Praetorian]

Hey man, just wondering what your opinion is on Kefei vs Somatropin.

Do you feel someone might have to take more kefei to get the same effect as Somas?

I've had a buddy that got really bad welts from shots of kefeis, have you heard anything about that?

I have no personal experience with Kefeis but ive heard alot of guys getting welts from them and Ive also heard it was 192aa...cant confirm that however.
Somas are definitely good to go...never had a welt form them and ive used them for a couple years now with great success.
P

[Sandwiches]

Thanks it was last Friday!
P

Happy Birthday Prae

[wan2lrn]

Since I have been following this thread from the very beginning, I feel that it is appropriate to give you a HUGE thank you for all your free advice. There is great info in this thread and I will be here as long as you are.

Happy belated birthday! (Early 40's, right?)

[Praetorian]

Thanks for the Bday wishes...yep 42...getting old. ;o)
P

[btufts]

Hey p happy bday man, how did you celebrate?

So with a few very small tweaks to the diet I'm back on track with the fat loss. I just actually read many posts ago that EC or any stim is bad on keto. I've been taking it for a while now, should I stop and find a non stim?

[Talo]

Happy b-day.

[Praetorian]

Hey p happy bday man, how did you celebrate?

So with a few very small tweaks to the diet I'm back on track with the fat loss. I just actually read many posts ago that EC or any stim is bad on keto. I've been taking it for a while now, should I stop and find a non stim?

Clen, Lipolyze, Somalyze are all better without the adrenal and cortisol sides...
P

[z83]

happy b-day good sir

[btufts]

Clen, Lipolyze, Somalyze are all better without the adrenal and cortisol sides...
P

Awesome p thanks, is the lipolyze and somalyze supplements I can buy in store??

[rickyboy36]

Ive heard of these before(Lipolyze, Somalyze).What are the ingredients,where can you get this..and is it over the counter?

How would you compare them to clen?I have never heard you mention these products until now and would imagine they are not that effective then..loll

[Praetorian]

Ive heard of these before(Lipolyze, Somalyze).What are the ingredients,where can you get this..and is it over the counter?

How would you compare them to clen?I have never heard you mention these products until now and would imagine they are not that effective then..loll

They are natural products and produced by Species Nutrition. All of my natural athletes use them when dieting with great success. They are not as effective as clen but for a natural product they do work significantly. They are non stimulant based...Lipolyze is used during the day and Somalyze is a night time fat burner as well as a sleep aide. The active ingredient for fat loss is usnic acid...approx 10mg per cap. Ive used them preparing for the Nationals and the Somalyze is great for gettign some really deep sleeps at the same time brning fat over night.

P

[Praetorian]

Awesome p thanks, is the lipolyze and somalyze supplements I can buy in store??

They may not be available in all Health food stores yet...I do sell them off my website.
P

[rickyboy36]

They may not be available in all Health food stores yet...I do sell them off my website.
P

Bro..i didnt even know you had a website?Wow..i cant even believe you didn't give your self a plug here and there(well at least i didn't see any).It goes to show that you are here to really help us.THANKS!

Can you give me the link?And if ever i buy some,i will buy it from you for sure seeing that you have been helping us out immensely..

Thanks Again!!

Ricky

[Praetorian]

Bro..i didnt even know you had a website?Wow..i cant even believe you didn't give your self a plug here and there(well at least i didn't see any).It goes to show that you are here to really help us.THANKS!

Can you give me the link?And if ever i buy some,i will buy it from you for sure seeing that you have been helping us out immensely..

Thanks Again!!

Ricky

You can check it out....www.bodyathletica.com
P

[rickyboy36]

Something not too long ago happened to me and it got me thinking about ketones and how the brain processes these.

The other day i was reading that if someone took 1-3ui's of insulin 1 hour before doing cardio,it would give them the same benefit as doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach seeing that blood sugar levels would be under 70.So i decided that i would try it and it was recommended on a keto diet cause blood glucose is at 70 as well.I did a low 3/4 ui's,waited a bit and did cardio.15 mins later,i started feeling dizzy and i had to stop.I was definatley going hypo.It wasnt bad,but still i had to be careful.

Now what got me thinking is if the brain really uses ketones as "fuel"..why did i go hypo then?Going Hypo is a lack of glucose to the brain right?.I mean it shouldnt matter if blood levels are low cause my brain supposely uses ketones.But my body did not like what i did.

Do you know why this happened?

[btufts]

nice site p, seeing as species products arent around here yet the only things i have to work with that arent stims are green tea extract, cla and guggulsterones. would these be better than the EC on this diet?

[Praetorian]

Something not too long ago happened to me and it got me thinking about ketones and how the brain processes these.

The other day i was reading that if someone took 1-3ui's of insulin 1 hour before doing cardio,it would give them the same benefit as doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach seeing that blood sugar levels would be under 70.So i decided that i would try it and it was recommended on a keto diet cause blood glucose is at 70 as well.I did a low 3/4 ui's,waited a bit and did cardio.15 mins later,i started feeling dizzy and i had to stop.I was definatley going hypo.It wasnt bad,but still i had to be careful.

Now what got me thinking is if the brain really uses ketones as "fuel"..why did i go hypo then?Going Hypo is a lack of glucose to the brain right?.I mean it shouldnt matter if blood levels are low cause my brain supposely uses ketones.But my body did not like what i did.

Do you know why this happened?


You have to remember even while in ketosis the brain can only utilize 75% of its energy source from ketones...it still requires some from glucose...ie the fat cell can be broken down into glycerol and FFA for use(in the abscence of glycogen). Also you are still consuming carbohydrate in trace amounts which in total come to about 50g per day....so there is still circulating glucose in smaller amounts which are required for training etc. Thus you still felt the effects of hypoglycemia by taking insulin. Trust me there is no benefit to do that....when you take exogenous insulin glucagon drops and so does fat burning. The main reason you do cardio at fasted time is to take advantage of low blood glucose levels....ie morning after sleeping all night and post workout. If you do this you will see much more benefit than messing around with insulin...again keep things simple.
P

[Praetorian]

nice site p, seeing as species products arent around here yet the only things i have to work with that arent stims are green tea extract, cla and guggulsterones. would these be better than the EC on this diet?

Species are available anywhere because you can purchase them online...I assume canada post does deliver in your area. Green Tea extract, CLA, and guggulsterones will do little for fat loss....avoid EC.
P

[btufts]

I would buy online sir but o have no credit card aha I don't think there's any other way eh

[rickyboy36]

Prae,Ive got another question regarding protein and fats during a keto diet.

The first week when i start off,my proteins are more or less about 31grams per meal in order to get into ketosis faster and limit glucogenesis from happening.I weigh in at about 195.In the second week i do the same seeing my body isnt 100% sure of the pathway yet and is also why we dont cheat in the first week.

My second week i up my proteins to 40grams per meal and feel good doing this.What i want to know is can i ramp up to 50 or 60grams of protein per meal randomly(maybe 2-3 days a week) in order to take advantage of more fatburning?I know you take fat out at the end,but say one was doing a diet for only 4 weeks,good he permit himself doing that?Every meal i have has 400 calories calculated.so weeks 1+2 i have 28 grams of fat about per meal..then after that its 23-24g.Can i go lower than that once in a while??My overall calories would remain the same and only a switch between fat and protein would be done

Thanks!

[Praetorian]

Prae,Ive got another question regarding protein and fats during a keto diet.

The first week when i start off,my proteins are more or less about 31grams per meal in order to get into ketosis faster and limit glucogenesis from happening.I weigh in at about 195.In the second week i do the same seeing my body isnt 100% sure of the pathway yet and is also why we dont cheat in the first week.

My second week i up my proteins to 40grams per meal and feel good doing this.What i want to know is can i ramp up to 50 or 60grams of protein per meal randomly(maybe 2-3 days a week) in order to take advantage of more fatburning?I know you take fat out at the end,but say one was doing a diet for only 4 weeks,good he permit himself doing that?Every meal i have has 400 calories calculated.so weeks 1+2 i have 28 grams of fat about per meal..then after that its 23-24g.Can i go lower than that once in a while??My overall calories would remain the same and only a switch between fat and protein would be done

Thanks!

During the initial phase of entering ketosis you do not want to lower protein intake because the body is now very low on glycogen but still has not converted to using ketones...thus gluconeogenesis is a very real issue and the body will try to obtain glucose via amino acid conversion....taking in adequate protein will prevent muscle tissue being used as the amino acid source. There is no need to alter the diet to get into ketosis faster...72 hours is the normal time frame and works perfectly fine...there is no advantage to trying to speed this up by a few hours....the difference is insignificant. Protein should always remain the same for each meal roughly 40-50 g depending on lean mass. Lowering fat per meal will do little to speed fat loss....having a fat free day would be better as FFA are stored and can be utilized when they are not ingested.
It is not wise to have a cheat meal until after two weeks because in this time frame even though the brain is using ketones for fuel it hasnt readily accepted the fact the glucose is no longer the preferred energy source and will readily switch back if you provide it with glucose. Thus by doing this you make it much more difficult to get back into ketosis after the cheat meal.
P

[Praetorian]

I would buy online sir but o have no credit card aha I don't think there's any other way eh

Paypal
P

[rickyboy36]

During the initial phase of entering ketosis you do not want to lower protein intake because the body is now very low on glycogen but still has not converted to using ketones...thus gluconeogenesis is a very real issue and the body will try to obtain glucose via amino acid conversion....taking in adequate protein will prevent muscle tissue being used as the amino acid source. There is no need to alter the diet to get into ketosis faster...72 hours is the normal time frame and works perfectly fine...there is no advantage to trying to speed this up by a few hours....the difference is insignificant. Protein should always remain the same for each meal roughly 40-50 g depending on lean mass. Lowering fat per meal will do little to speed fat loss....having a fat free day would be better as FFA are stored and can be utilized when they are not ingested.
It is not wise to have a cheat meal until after two weeks because in this time frame even though the brain is using ketones for fuel it hasnt readily accepted the fact the glucose is no longer the preferred energy source and will readily switch back if you provide it with glucose. Thus by doing this you make it much more difficult to get back into ketosis after the cheat meal.
P

Ok i see.So by having a fat free day..would i up my protein in order to fill the gap to get my 400 caloreis per meal..or do i still keep protein at 40-50grams per meal only?

[Praetorian]

Ok i see.So by having a fat free day..would i up my protein in order to fill the gap to get my 400 caloreis per meal..or do i still keep protein at 40-50grams per meal only?

No the protein remains the same....just eliminate the fatty foods like egg yolks, red meat/salmon, nuts, nut butters etc.
P

[Dragon1911]

Praetorian,

Do you think a 6 day split hitting each body part twice a week is overtraining?
3 days on rest and 3 days on.

[Praetorian]

Praetorian,

Do you think a 6 day split hitting each body part twice a week is overtraining?
3 days on rest and 3 days on.

For the genetically gifted maybe not...but for the rest of use definitely!
P

[tiramisu]

What are your thoughts on di Pasquale's Anabolic Solution for bodybuilders (Metabolic Diet)?

To me it looks like a nice transition from Palumbo's more restrictive template but is it really effective for putting on muscle?

[Praetorian]

What are your thoughts on di Pasquale's Anabolic Solution for bodybuilders (Metabolic Diet)?

To me it looks like a nice transition from Palumbo's more restrictive template but is it really effective for putting on muscle?

I find the trouble with the Anabolic solution as well as the Anabolic diet was the fat level was too high as well as too high in saturated fats, nitrites etc. Carbs were limited too much as well ....even on DP diet you still eat carbs 50g per day from trace sources as well as veggies because they are necessary to train. I dont see it as an effective way to put on significant muscle because carbs are limited too much and thus so is insulin.
P

[JacktheThriller]

Pasquale has made a troubleshooting guide to his diet, that involves more lenient measures about the carbs for training, but i believe you are right about his lax attitude toward saturated fats, do you think any variation of keto is right for muscle building, or do you think that adding carbs and therefore utilizing insulin just to easy too pass up

[tiramisu]

Another related question, who's diet philosophy's do you find resonate with you for mass gain?

[rj45]

from the other thread.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Well everyone has to learn...the easy way or the hard way i guess. Trust me when i tell you BB is a simple endeavour...train like a machine albeit correctly, eat like a machine, get adequate rest, and run a decent cycle. Youll notice that i put cycle last...because it is the least important. Guys who make the cycle the most important thing always fail!! There is no magic in BB its called genetics and work ethic. Without these it really makes little difference what drugs you are using period! You have a decent physique and you can improve dramatically but its not going to be because you started slin pre workout LOL. A simple offseason cycle such as this will give you optimum growth:
1-8 test C 250mg EOD
1-8 deca 150mg EOD
9-16 test E 250mg EOD
9-16 tren ace 100mg EOD
1-16 GH 6-8 iu ED
1-16 Slin 8iu am, 8iu post workout (if needed)
PCT including GH, HCG, Aromasin, Clomid

Thats about as complicated as it gets.
Diet should be 7-8 meals daily 50g pro+50g carbs+20g fat
Training 5 days per week 1 bodypart per day
Constantly improve your strength...ie aim for triple 5's...500 bench, 500 deads, 500 squat all for reps...it will take some time but thats your goal.
P




Thanks Prae...I appreciate it....I will do pretty much the same cycle as you posted, minus the tren as i really dont handle it well, i break out like a mofo, and feel like garbage. I will add in the deca, i was going to do test only, when i do this cycle it will be by far my biggest to date, wanted to do my first show on fairly low dose to see if i could even hold my own before delving deeper, i did ok, so up a notch........
Im on pct now and then a few weeks of pcr, then back on....will be 12 weeks pcr, and pct collectively...The cycle always has been and will be last on my list as well, i didnt even start aas until a few yrs ago..
I do realize that it is simple, eat lift rest repeat...My biggest problem is my career...i am managing that much better this yr, so im hoping for the best..
the meal plan you made out is exactly what i am doing now and will do all off season, 50,50,20....
my lifts on squats are in the mid-hi 500s, deads the same, my chest will have a hard time getting in the 500s, i can do 400s, but jeebus, 500s??? I dont know if i can, but i will try...
1 question, how would dbol work about 5-6 weeks into my cycle for 5-6 weeks length of time??
Thanks again, i appreciate it...
I realize there is no magic bullets, but i need to do better, and im looking for all the tools i can, not meaning drugs either..
Ill be in touch when ive put on the mass, for help cutting...for sure..


QUESTION....should my foods stay relatively the same all off season, or should i switch up the carb sources, and protein sources etc????
use extra fats such as olive oils and fish oils etc, and how many shakes with protein are optimal to consume, or does it make a difference??

I am in no position to question you, but this looks pretty funny. Probably just do 250mg test and leave the stacks for the blasts right?

[Praetorian]

I am in no position to question you, but this looks pretty funny. Probably just do 250mg test and leave the stacks for the blasts right?

I am not quite sure what you are asking??? can you verify please?
P

[Praetorian]

Pasquale has made a troubleshooting guide to his diet, that involves more lenient measures about the carbs for training, but i believe you are right about his lax attitude toward saturated fats, do you think any variation of keto is right for muscle building, or do you think that adding carbs and therefore utilizing insulin just to easy too pass up

A keto diet is not designed for mass gain....as previously posted you need carbs to grow and you require insulin as well. You can take the keto diet...add in some necessary carbs to each meal and you basically have an offseason diet...simplistic but it will work.
P

The thing about building muscle is to make sure you have all the essentials...ie essential fats, saturated fats(adequate), essential amino accids (protein) and varied sources of complex carbs, fibre, vitamins, minerals etc
If you lack specific nutrients it will be difficult to build maximum muscle.
P

[Praetorian]

Another related question, who's diet philosophy's do you find resonate with you for mass gain?

I've read and studied a few different sources, Berardi, Palumbo, Di Pasquale, Jay Robb, Brad King, etc...i tend to take specific things from each and create a modified version sort of speak.
P

[L3]

hey P,

this was brought up in another thread...chewing gum on a Keto diet...

im not talking about the Double Bubble sugary stuff or the gum rolls...clearly those are out, i just mean like Dentyne Ice... mine has 1g of Sugar Alcohol per piece... is that enough to interfere with my ketosis if i have 4-5 pieces a day?!

thanks P!!!

[kawikaratekid]

Hey Prae,

First off I wanna say thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.

What's the longest 500mg of Test E could be run safely? How long could it be run safely with HCG run every other month? It seems like a pretty low dose and other than shrinking my boys I don't get that many sides. My hairline is in tact, I've got my first body pimple from juicing this year (I've done more test in the past), and I feel great!

[Praetorian]

hey P,

this was brought up in another thread...chewing gum on a Keto diet...

im not talking about the Double Bubble sugary stuff or the gum rolls...clearly those are out, i just mean like Dentyne Ice... mine has 1g of Sugar Alcohol per piece... is that enough to interfere with my ketosis if i have 4-5 pieces a day?!

thanks P!!!

I always suggest to limit it to 3-4 pieces daily...sugar alcohol is not good while in ketosis.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,

First off I wanna say thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.

What's the longest 500mg of Test E could be run safely? How long could it be run safely with HCG run every other month? It seems like a pretty low dose and other than shrinking my boys I don't get that many sides. My hairline is in tact, I've got my first body pimple from juicing this year (I've done more test in the past), and I feel great!

First off feeling great and actually having a healthy blood profile are two completely different things. People walk around all the time feeling great and a week later they are diagnosed with cholesterol and cardiac issues. Feeling great means nothing. Regular blood check ups is the only way to know if you are healthy or not. That being said running 500mg test per week or 1000mg test per week will illicit about the exact same sides so there is really no difference....you are not being safer or more healthy by running 500mg weekly...that is a myth perpetuated by fear and ignorance. Most sides from test wont manifest until you go over the 1 gram per week mark. I am not saying use more....I am just stating reality. I dont see any reason to run a cycle longer than 16 weeks. By running longer cycles even with HCG you are still making full recovery difficult and putting additional stress on the body yet you are not receiving much additional benefit.
P

[IronMan]

Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry well said P!

[tiramisu]

Hey Prae,

I'm starting to think about what I'm going to do after the diet is over.
I should be around 200 @ 6-8% @ 5' 9" if all goes well.

Next year I'd like to see another 20 pounds on my frame (wouldn't we all) at a similar level of bodyfat. I'll almost certainly be back on test/npp for 16 weeks.

I'm thinking that from a diet perspective my macros should sit around:

total calories should be somewhere around 20 per pound = 4000

Daily:
2 grams per pound of protein - 400 grams - 1600 calories
2 grams per pound of carbs - 400 grams - 1600 calories
800 calories of fat - ~90 grams

Does this seem like a reasonable caloric breakdown?

This year it seemed like once I hit somewhere around 230 (20%-ish bf) my gains were almost entirely fat rather than muscle. Strength was still going up but I started turning into a butterball. It seemed like my gains from 10-15% BF in terms of % muscle were better.

Is this a reality or just perception? If the former, for successful muscle mass gain what bodyfat ranges should we be trying to keep ourselves within to successfully get more muscular?

And finally training theories, I've gone from Starting Strength (18 months) to DC (7 months) over the last 2 years. Lots of intensity not a huge amount of volume recently. I'm wondering if the easiest way of putting 20 pound of muscle on would be to go after a 5 day split with lots of volume. I continue to see good continuous improvements with DC but I find myself wondering if puffy weak muscles might be a good idea for a season.

Again thoughts?

Thanks as always.

[kawikaratekid]

First off feeling great and actually having a healthy blood profile are two completely different things. People walk around all the time feeling great and a week later they are diagnosed with cholesterol and cardiac issues. Feeling great means nothing. Regular blood check ups is the only way to know if you are healthy or not. That being said running 500mg test per week or 1000mg test per week will illicit about the exact same sides so there is really no difference....you are not being safer or more healthy by running 500mg weekly...that is a myth perpetuated by fear and ignorance. Most sides from test wont manifest until you go over the 1 gram per week mark. I am not saying use more....I am just stating reality. I dont see any reason to run a cycle longer than 16 weeks. By running longer cycles even with HCG you are still making full recovery difficult and putting additional stress on the body yet you are not receiving much additional benefit.
P

Thanks P....I haven't gotten blood work done for a year but I think I will get it done after my PCT this time...

Just curious. Which months would you run your cycles typically?

[nii]

That being said running 500mg test per week or 1000mg test per week will illicit about the exact same sides so there is really no difference....you are not being safer or more healthy by running 500mg weekly...that is a myth perpetuated by fear and ignorance. Most sides from test wont manifest until you go over the 1 gram per week mark.
P

Quick question about this. I would think that the relationship between usage and sides is linear. So saying that 500 is almost equivalent to 1g kinda goes against this (in term of neg sides). Would a similar statement be: 125mg of HRT for life, be nearly the same as 500mg HRT for life?

I always thought that it was a linear relationship, and people generally had a cut off where the sides are too great a risk for the benefits.

[pcruiser73]

Hey P, what is your feeling on using liver protectors like liv 52 while taking orals such as Anadrol and D-bol. Some say this decreases the effectiveness of the steroid. I cant quite figure out the reasoning behind this. Your thoughts?

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,

I'm starting to think about what I'm going to do after the diet is over.
I should be around 200 @ 6-8% @ 5' 9" if all goes well.

Next year I'd like to see another 20 pounds on my frame (wouldn't we all) at a similar level of bodyfat. I'll almost certainly be back on test/npp for 16 weeks.

I'm thinking that from a diet perspective my macros should sit around:

total calories should be somewhere around 20 per pound = 4000

Daily:
2 grams per pound of protein - 400 grams - 1600 calories
2 grams per pound of carbs - 400 grams - 1600 calories
800 calories of fat - ~90 grams

Does this seem like a reasonable caloric breakdown?

This year it seemed like once I hit somewhere around 230 (20%-ish bf) my gains were almost entirely fat rather than muscle. Strength was still going up but I started turning into a butterball. It seemed like my gains from 10-15% BF in terms of % muscle were better.

Is this a reality or just perception? If the former, for successful muscle mass gain what bodyfat ranges should we be trying to keep ourselves within to successfully get more muscular?

And finally training theories, I've gone from Starting Strength (18 months) to DC (7 months) over the last 2 years. Lots of intensity not a huge amount of volume recently. I'm wondering if the easiest way of putting 20 pound of muscle on would be to go after a 5 day split with lots of volume. I continue to see good continuous improvements with DC but I find myself wondering if puffy weak muscles might be a good idea for a season.

Again thoughts?

Thanks as always.
When it comes to diet for muscular gains you need to make sure you have adequate essential fats and amino acids...for this I would suggest 45-50g of protein per meal as well as 15-20g fat per meal. When it comes to carbohydrate intake you will have to see what amount your body prefers prior to it depositing fat. What I try to do it start with say 30g per meal (this would be after your body gets used to processing carbs again after the diet) and increase it from there to see what seems optimal. Remember carbs will only be utilized as a fuel source (energy) thus sparing fat and protein to be used as building blocks. Some people can get away with more carbs than others...say 70g per meal....i usually end up somewhere around 50-60g. If you do this you will tend to remain leaner yet still maximize gains. Also I dont liek to go much over 12-13% BF offseason...the fatter you get the less efficient the body becomes and the more difficult it is to put on muscle...not to mention it becomes much easier to deposit fat. Our hormones tend to drop when BF climbs....ie thyroid, testosterone, HGH, etc
As for cycling I dont like NPP at all...it is much too fast and does not illicit results like deca would. Offseason try to keep things simple....long ester test plus EQ, Tren or Deca are all good choices. Super high doses are not necessary....for advanced lifters. 1g test and 600 EQ/deca is more than enough. With tren ace about 50-100mg EOD is fine.
When it comes to training I find HIT is one of the best but it also comes down to genetics...those with great genes can get away with single sets...those without need more volume. I dont think most guys training HIT are getting maximum benefit because their intensity level is just not there. People think they train intensely but in reality when they are pushed they have a very large margin to go. I prefer to train heavy weights, multiple rep ranges, and moderate volume...ie 2-3 sets per exercise. Thus I will have sets at 5 reps, sets at 8 reps, and sets at 10 reps...but all with maximum weights for that rep range. DC training is a nice change but it wont last long until you adaptand keepin g intensity levels high enough to keep the gains coming becomes very difficult and stressful on the adrenals. What you can also do is alternate DC trainign say for 4 weeks followed by increased volume for 6 weeks and the repeat. For the better part of my training career ive trained 5 days per week, one muscle group per day....alternating exercises and rep ranges. I believe most lifters need more time under the bar...not less.
Puffy weak muscles...I dont think that will happen...remember you are still using heavy weights...just doing a few more sets and reps.
P

[Praetorian]

Thanks P....I haven't gotten blood work done for a year but I think I will get it done after my PCT this time...

Just curious. Which months would you run your cycles typically?

Normally it coincides with the contest schedule....ie winter is offseason spring or summer is precontest. So off times/PCT would be late winter and early fall.
P

[Praetorian]

Quick question about this. I would think that the relationship between usage and sides is linear. So saying that 500 is almost equivalent to 1g kinda goes against this (in term of neg sides). Would a similar statement be: 125mg of HRT for life, be nearly the same as 500mg HRT for life?

I always thought that it was a linear relationship, and people generally had a cut off where the sides are too great a risk for the benefits.

The relationship between dosage and sides is not linear...it is actually a curve....which starts low and gradual but rises sharply at the 1g point.
HRT and supraphysiological doses are not comparable...that is apples to oranges. HRT tries to mimick our own hormone production. Using test for performance enhancement goes above and beyond that level thus introducing health issues. As well using test for performance enhancement is not a life long endeavour...it is cycled and then off periods are used to normalize and return to optimal health. HRT tries to maintain optimal health for the long term.
There is always a risk when going above and beyond what is normal when it comes to hormone levels...what most athletes try to do is limit the sides and maximize the gains...thus they try to stay out of the steep part of the curve.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P, what is your feeling on using liver protectors like liv 52 while taking orals such as Anadrol and D-bol. Some say this decreases the effectiveness of the steroid. I cant quite figure out the reasoning behind this. Your thoughts?

Taking liver protectors while running orals is like washing your car in the rain...it may get somewhat cleaner but it always ends up with streaks and not looking the best. I pefer to use liver support after running orals and make sure to use quality products. I am not a fan of orals to begin with so I rarely run into this issue. Keep oral cycles short, and avoid harsh compounds like anadrol and halo unless you are competing at the national level. Run a quality liver cleanse after your cycle and eat healthy and avoid alcohol to avoid additional stress on the liver.
P

[pcruiser73]

So when you say "quality products" is LIV-52 a quality product or what it the best one?

[Praetorian]

So when you say "quality products" is LIV-52 a quality product or what it the best one?

Yes that is a great product. Liver cleanse by Omega Alpha is also very good.
P

[pcruiser73]

Thank You:a+

[tiramisu]

When it comes to diet for muscular gains you need to make sure you have adequate essential fats and amino acids...for this I would suggest 45-50g of protein per meal as well as 15-20g fat per meal. When it comes to carbohydrate intake you will have to see what amount your body prefers prior to it depositing fat. What I try to do it start with say 30g per meal (this would be after your body gets used to processing carbs again after the diet) and increase it from there to see what seems optimal. Remember carbs will only be utilized as a fuel source (energy) thus sparing fat and protein to be used as building blocks. Some people can get away with more carbs than others...say 70g per meal....i usually end up somewhere around 50-60g. If you do this you will tend to remain leaner yet still maximize gains. Also I dont liek to go much over 12-13% BF offseason...the fatter you get the less efficient the body becomes and the more difficult it is to put on muscle...not to mention it becomes much easier to deposit fat. Our hormones tend to drop when BF climbs....ie thyroid, testosterone, HGH, etc
As for cycling I dont like NPP at all...it is much too fast and does not illicit results like deca would. Offseason try to keep things simple....long ester test plus EQ, Tren or Deca are all good choices. Super high doses are not necessary....for advanced lifters. 1g test and 600 EQ/deca is more than enough. With tren ace about 50-100mg EOD is fine.
When it comes to training I find HIT is one of the best but it also comes down to genetics...those with great genes can get away with single sets...those without need more volume. I dont think most guys training HIT are getting maximum benefit because their intensity level is just not there. People think they train intensely but in reality when they are pushed they have a very large margin to go. I prefer to train heavy weights, multiple rep ranges, and moderate volume...ie 2-3 sets per exercise. Thus I will have sets at 5 reps, sets at 8 reps, and sets at 10 reps...but all with maximum weights for that rep range. DC training is a nice change but it wont last long until you adaptand keepin g intensity levels high enough to keep the gains coming becomes very difficult and stressful on the adrenals. What you can also do is alternate DC trainign say for 4 weeks followed by increased volume for 6 weeks and the repeat. For the better part of my training career ive trained 5 days per week, one muscle group per day....alternating exercises and rep ranges. I believe most lifters need more time under the bar...not less.
Puffy weak muscles...I dont think that will happen...remember you are still using heavy weights...just doing a few more sets and reps.
P


I'll probably read this at least 10 more times. I appreciate the thought you put into your responses.

One thing I notice when I do the math is that
50 grams protein
20 grams fat
50 grams carbs

is about 4640 calories.

If I'm doing 90 minutes of lifting and 30 minutes of walking on the treadmill a day on average my estimated caloric reqiurements bmi+acitivy would be around 4200. (obviously a diet like this would take weekly monitoring and tuning as the body weight strength went up)

This seems like a small excess (less than a pound a week) for muscle growth. Not that adding 3/4 of a pound of meat would be bad but I assume a good 40% of the weight added is going to be fat(??).

Is increasing the caloric excess closer to 1000 calories per day rather than 500 simply wasteful? Again the math part is easy but the metabolic responses to food get me a little muddled. I would have thought that a significant excess (i.e. >500 cals per day) would be a pretty strong growth signal post diet but I don't really understand the relative effect on fat storage versus muscle growth.

I can see a significant advantage in keeping the diet tight in terms of not blowing past 12-13% (slightly visible abs) all the way to my own specialty 20% (belly) and wouln't be shocked if the net benefit might be greater over a 16 week cycle than but it's not obvious to me. There's a bit of subtlety here that I'm missing.

It appears that some people are able to put what I think of as a stunning amount of muscle in a relatively short time when they start very lean and use aas. My own experience has been far more slow and steady. I wonder whether changing the caloric intake/macro weighting is going to allow me to be one of those people or if it is simply a matter of them being genetic outliers. Again seperating myth from fact is pretty tough. There is what we want to believe and there is what is true. They are often not the same thing.

There's a couple of questions buried in here.

Is a measured 500 calorie excess on average the best way to put on meat assuming correct macro distribution?

Assuming normal genetics is it possible for an intermediate lifter to put a pound of muscle on a week during a cycle or is this an outlier/marketing bs/too much dbol?

[Praetorian]

I'll probably read this at least 10 more times. I appreciate the thought you put into your responses.

One thing I notice when I do the math is that
50 grams protein
20 grams fat
50 grams carbs

is about 4640 calories.

If I'm doing 90 minutes of lifting and 30 minutes of walking on the treadmill a day on average my estimated caloric reqiurements bmi+acitivy would be around 4200. (obviously a diet like this would take weekly monitoring and tuning as the body weight strength went up)

This seems like a small excess (less than a pound a week) for muscle growth. Not that adding 3/4 of a pound of meat would be bad but I assume a good 40% of the weight added is going to be fat(??).

Is increasing the caloric excess closer to 1000 calories per day rather than 500 simply wasteful? Again the math part is easy but the metabolic responses to food get me a little muddled. I would have thought that a significant excess (i.e. >500 cals per day) would be a pretty strong growth signal post diet but I don't really understand the relative effect on fat storage versus muscle growth.

I can see a significant advantage in keeping the diet tight in terms of not blowing past 12-13% (slightly visible abs) all the way to my own specialty 20% (belly) and wouln't be shocked if the net benefit might be greater over a 16 week cycle than but it's not obvious to me. There's a bit of subtlety here that I'm missing.

It appears that some people are able to put what I think of as a stunning amount of muscle in a relatively short time when they start very lean and use aas. My own experience has been far more slow and steady. I wonder whether changing the caloric intake/macro weighting is going to allow me to be one of those people or if it is simply a matter of them being genetic outliers. Again seperating myth from fact is pretty tough. There is what we want to believe and there is what is true. They are often not the same thing.

There's a couple of questions buried in here.

Is a measured 500 calorie excess on average the best way to put on meat assuming correct macro distribution?

Assuming normal genetics is it possible for an intermediate lifter to put a pound of muscle on a week during a cycle or is this an outlier/marketing bs/too much dbol?

500 calories over and above maintenance is more than enough to build muscle....if things slow down or you arent adding much muscle....add another meal to the day. For an intermediate lifter a pound of muscle a week is very unrealistic unless you are a genetic freak. If you can gain 10lbs of lean muscle in a year ...you are doing better than most. The guys you speak of making big gains are gym BB's....the truth be told...once they diet down to see what actually is there....not as much as you thought. Anyone can make big gains in bodyweight....lean muscle is a completely different animal.
P

[tiramisu]

Did I mention I hate the truth.

Thanks again.

[Ritch]

What would you say is the most impressive transformation or goal you`ve ever had a client or somebody you advise accomplish? ( Good time for you to show off you skills here! )

[Praetorian]

What would you say is the most impressive transformation or goal you`ve ever had a client or somebody you advise accomplish? ( Good time for you to show off you skills here! )

To be quite honest most of the clients...who stick to the program have very impressive transformations. Some people appreciate the BB's tranformations more yet the sedentary ones who have decided to make a change in their lives are to me more impressive. We worked with a woman this year who started at about 180+ lbs and had all kinds of health issues...PCOS, thyroid, etc After 16 weeks she was down to 140 or less and was able to get pregnant after Dr's saying it was impossible...she was quite thrilled to say the least and maintains her weight and health. Another woman client who started out at over 200lbs at 5'4 was able to get quite lean and had very nice shape and eventually wants to compete...see an after pic below.
P

[Talo]

That's simply amazing !

[Ritch]

Since Talo took the words out of my mouth, I`ll just add that pic almost makes me feel like doing keto, lol...

I went on your site P and saw this big dude we can see from the back. Is that you? Also the prices you guys charge for contest prep and whatnot is very, very affordable. Thing for sure if I were just starting off and wanted to be shown how to get this done right, I`d hire you or one of your staff. If I ever hear of someone looking for a coach, I will send them your way.

[JacktheThriller]

i guess i have joined the strength cycle bandwagon, is there any benifit to doing a cycle while im dieting or is it fairly useless in this context?

[Praetorian]

i guess i have joined the strength cycle bandwagon, is there any benifit to doing a cycle while im dieting or is it fairly useless in this context?

AAS will definitely help maintain muscle and strength while dieting.
P

[Vitamin S]

P,

what is the best thing to take for gyno/bloat when using Deca ??

thanks

[JacktheThriller]

lol
not talking bout AAS, sorry, strength cycle as in cycling intesity of weight 85%-108%

[Praetorian]

P,

what is the best thing to take for gyno/bloat when using Deca ??

thanks

Water retention from deca is common place...and usually within the joint as it does improve leverages and thus strength. Aromatization is not usually an issue with deca as it doesnt convert much (compared to test) to estrogen. However there can be gyno issues associated with increased progesterone and/or prolactin. This usually only occurs however when estrogen is elevated. Dostinex can be used to combat progesterone/prolactin issues from deca as well as tren.
P

[Praetorian]

lol
not talking bout AAS, sorry, strength cycle as in cycling intesity of weight 85%-108%

Definitely worth while cycling...I would suggest a using the dieting time as a reduced intensity somewhat of a deload...once completed slowly moving into a more high intensity 100%+ period.
P

[Vitamin S]

So P,

if i use deca like 4-500mg range with test , as long as estrogen is controled such as by taking 1mg of arimidex EOD while on cycle, one should be able to keep the deca bloat/gyno at bay?

i guess the underlying problem is estrogen and if thats kept to minimal then it don't matter if the progestrone/procation is there correct?

[Praetorian]

Since Talo took the words out of my mouth, I`ll just add that pic almost makes me feel like doing keto, lol...

I went on your site P and saw this big dude we can see from the back. Is that you? Also the prices you guys charge for contest prep and whatnot is very, very affordable. Thing for sure if I were just starting off and wanted to be shown how to get this done right, I`d hire you or one of your staff. If I ever hear of someone looking for a coach, I will send them your way.

Thanks Ritch, not sure which pic you mean...there is a pic of myself on the services page...from the Nationals 2008. Dieting is a very controlled science...its a good idea to have at least on run through with someone who understands how it works thus you gain quite an advantage in the long term.
P

[tiramisu]

... What is your website's url?

[Praetorian]

... What is your website's url?

www.bodyathletica.com

P

[Praetorian]

So P,

if i use deca like 4-500mg range with test , as long as estrogen is controled such as by taking 1mg of arimidex EOD while on cycle, one should be able to keep the deca bloat/gyno at bay?

i guess the underlying problem is estrogen and if thats kept to minimal then it don't matter if the progestrone/procation is there correct?

In most cases yes...you may want to start lower ie .5mg or use aromasin at 12.5mg ED...thus avoiding HDL issues from arimidex. Unless you are extremely sensitive to progesterone/prolactin you shoudl have little issues with that protocol.
P

[Vitamin S]

hey P,

what is the longest one should wait when first waking up in the morning to consume a meal?

under normal conditions i have a meal right after i wake up and shower, but sometimes gotta run real fast and get to work or something else comes up etc?

also the standard therapy is time on = time off to restore hpta axis and clean the body out, i always wondered if the pros followed this therapy as any down time off AAS results in muscle loss, and that just means the time you been off someone is on and making gains while your cleaning your self out? or do they just never come off, or just run GH in between or HRT dose?

thanks,

[Vitamin S]

p how true is the statement below?

BY CHOOSING THE RIGHT DIETARY FATS,YOU CAN ENHANCE MEMBRANE FLUIDITY.It's easy to figure out which fats are the most fluid.Just put them in the refridgerator.Saturated fats,such as butter,cheese and other animal proteins,are solid at low temperatures.Polyunsaturated fats remain fluid even at low temperatures.Bodybuilders are looking for two types of polyunsaturated fats,omega-6 fats,such as that found in PRIMROSE OIL,and omega-3 fats,such as that found in fish oil(flax-seed oil is also rich in this department as well),with the latter being even more fluid than the former.Of course,you want to minimize your intake of the solidifying fats to the bare minimum;That is,you want to avoid saturated fats.By increasing the content of omega-6 and omega-3 fats inside the muscle cell membrane,YOU MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR MORE testosterone/ANDROGENS TO ENTER THE FIBERS.You may already be familiar with the similar favorable properties the two polyunsaturated fats have on insulin actions because they increase membrane fluidity.THEIR INFLUENCE ON CELL PERMEABILITY IS NOT TO BE NEGLECTED....

i am already taking 2-3g of fish oil daily, but never heard of eveining primose oil, i thought it was for women mostly, is this needed too?

thx

[Praetorian]

hey P,

what is the longest one should wait when first waking up in the morning to consume a meal? NORMALLY I EAT WITHIN 30 MINUTE OF RISING...I WOUDL NEVER GO TO WORK WITHOUT EATING FIRST

under normal conditions i have a meal right after i wake up and shower, but sometimes gotta run real fast and get to work or something else comes up etc? BEIMG ORGANIZED MEANS NO SURPRISES...THATS BB'ING

also the standard therapy is time on = time off to restore hpta axis and clean the body out, i always wondered if the pros followed this therapy as any down time off AAS results in muscle loss, and that just means the time you been off someone is on and making gains while your cleaning your self out? or do they just never come off, or just run GH in between or HRT dose?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS STANDARD THERAPY TIME ON=TIME OFF...RECOVERY IS A VERY INDIVIDUALISTIC THING...BLOOD WORK IS THE ONLY THING THAT PROVES RECOVERY, MAJORITY OF PROS RARELY COME OFF...SOME DO BUT MOST CANNOT AFFORD TO

thanks,

p

[Praetorian]

p how true is the statement below?

BY CHOOSING THE RIGHT DIETARY FATS,YOU CAN ENHANCE MEMBRANE FLUIDITY.It's easy to figure out which fats are the most fluid.Just put them in the refridgerator.Saturated fats,such as butter,cheese and other animal proteins,are solid at low temperatures.Polyunsaturated fats remain fluid even at low temperatures.Bodybuilders are looking for two types of polyunsaturated fats,omega-6 fats,such as that found in PRIMROSE OIL,and omega-3 fats,such as that found in fish oil(flax-seed oil is also rich in this department as well),with the latter being even more fluid than the former.Of course,you want to minimize your intake of the solidifying fats to the bare minimum;That is,you want to avoid saturated fats.By increasing the content of omega-6 and omega-3 fats inside the muscle cell membrane,YOU MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR MORE testosterone/ANDROGENS TO ENTER THE FIBERS.You may already be familiar with the similar favorable properties the two polyunsaturated fats have on insulin actions because they increase membrane fluidity.THEIR INFLUENCE ON CELL PERMEABILITY IS NOT TO BE NEGLECTED....

i am already taking 2-3g of fish oil daily, but never heard of eveining primose oil, i thought it was for women mostly, is this needed too?

thx

Sounds like a load of crap to me...you never want to minimize saturated fats to the bare minimum....saturated fats are required for cholesterol which are the building blocks of all hormones in the body....you dont need tonnes just a balance. The idea of loading up on one type of fats and limiting others is naive....balancing fat intake ratios is much more effective...not only for health but for optimal performance. Test/androgens dont enter fibres...the hormone acts like a key going into a lock (receptor).
P

[gsxr750]

Can't thank you enough for this thread

[mersanary]

2x
Can't thank you enough for this thread

[Vitamin S]

hi P,

quick question regarding this shoulder routine im following from davepalumbo.com. not sure how accurate it is, or if he even follows it LOL. r the sets below the working sets. for example i can shoulder press on dumbells 110 for 10 reps. but i can't go right into i would warm up like 40 for a few reps, and then 70, 90 and then finanlly reach 110??

same for the rest, like rear delts do i just go right into the working set, or warm up and then do the 2 sets of 10?



Machine press or Dumbbell press—3 sets (4-10 reps)
Machine Lateral raises (one arm at time) 2 sets (8-10 reps)
Dumbbell or cable front raises 2 sets (10 reps)
Bent-over Dumbbell (or cable) raises- rear delts 2 sets (8-10)
Shrugs (dumbbell or barbell) 2 sets (8-12 reps)

[Praetorian]

hi P,

quick question regarding this shoulder routine im following from davepalumbo.com. not sure how accurate it is, or if he even follows it LOL. r the sets below the working sets. for example i can shoulder press on dumbells 110 for 10 reps. but i can't go right into i would warm up like 40 for a few reps, and then 70, 90 and then finanlly reach 110??

same for the rest, like rear delts do i just go right into the working set, or warm up and then do the 2 sets of 10?



Machine press or Dumbbell press—3 sets (4-10 reps)
Machine Lateral raises (one arm at time) 2 sets (8-10 reps)
Dumbbell or cable front raises 2 sets (10 reps)
Bent-over Dumbbell (or cable) raises- rear delts 2 sets (8-10)
Shrugs (dumbbell or barbell) 2 sets (8-12 reps)

I usually do rear delts near the end of my delt routine...one warm up set is probably fine....you arent using extremely heavy weight anyways.
P

[Rhinobolt10]

Hey man,

Just wondering if you think using Deca while dieting is acceptable or not?

I'm probably jumping the gun a bit, as I'm slowly shedding some bodyfat before a bulk just so the bulk is on the clean side and I've got a bit of room to play with instead of getting too fat. Anyhew, I've been running 500test 300 eq, and I've swithced it up and upped the cycle a bit to 750 test 600 deca...

I've only done one shot so far, so 300 deca, but I can see I'm holding some water that I usually don't, and I was just wondering if I'm being dumb right now... or if this won't be much of an issue.

Diets clean, no sugar wheat or dairy, carbs in the morniing and after training, other wise basically just protein, veggies and fats.

Thanks for your reply

[Praetorian]

Hey man,

Just wondering if you think using Deca while dieting is acceptable or not?

I'm probably jumping the gun a bit, as I'm slowly shedding some bodyfat before a bulk just so the bulk is on the clean side and I've got a bit of room to play with instead of getting too fat. Anyhew, I've been running 500test 300 eq, and I've swithced it up and upped the cycle a bit to 750 test 600 deca...

I've only done one shot so far, so 300 deca, but I can see I'm holding some water that I usually don't, and I was just wondering if I'm being dumb right now... or if this won't be much of an issue.

Diets clean, no sugar wheat or dairy, carbs in the morniing and after training, other wise basically just protein, veggies and fats.

Thanks for your reply

Its actually quite common to use deca while dieting and it works very well. One reason is the increased fluid within the joint helps with strength and stability while running low carbs. A very good 16 week precomp diet starts with test C and deca for the first 8 weeks then switch to test E and Eq the last...adding in some other items like tren, winny etc later on. A bit of water retention make little difference unless you are on stage.

P

[tiramisu]

I did a search and read your opinions on carb cycling for cutting.

What I'm wondering about is carb cycling offseason. Is there any merit to this over a simpler pro/carb/fat diet where intake is relatively stable and protein is maintained at a higher level throughout?

[Praetorian]

I did a search and read your opinions on carb cycling for cutting.

What I'm wondering about is carb cycling offseason. Is there any merit to this over a simpler pro/carb/fat diet where intake is relatively stable and protein is maintained at a higher level throughout?

Carb cycling works very well offseason for women...as most women need very few carbs to grow and tend to put on fat relativley easy. For men more carbs are necessary and cycling would be fine for someone who is very prone to gaining fat easily...for a mesomorph or ectomorph carb cycling would tend to slow progress.
P

[rickyboy36]

Carb cycling works very well offseason for women...as most women need very few carbs to grow and tend to put on fat relativley easy. For men more carbs are necessary and cycling would be fine for someone who is very prone to gaining fat easily...for a mesomorph or ectomorph carb cycling would tend to slow progress.
P

From the feeback of others..and myself..carb cycling is perfect to keep you insulin sensitive and carb tolerant.On my low days i eat 100grams..then on my high training day,i get in 450 carbs in 3 meals and im pumped to the max with no spill whatsoever.A lot stronger too.By doing this,i put on less fat during my cycle.

[Vitamin S]

hey P,

how does this sound for a bulker cycle.

week 1-8 750mg test cypionate
weeks 9-16 750mg sustanon
week 1-16 500mg deca durabolin
week 1-6 dbol 50mg
weeks 12-16 anadrol 100mg

anti-e 0.5-1mg arimiex EOD

ill be using the palumbo lean bulker diet but only having carbs with breakfast and the 2 post workout meals. days off it will be only protein and fats.

[Praetorian]

hey P,

how does this sound for a bulker cycle.

week 1-8 750mg test cypionate
weeks 9-16 750mg sustanon
week 1-16 500mg deca durabolin
week 1-6 dbol 50mg
weeks 12-16 anadrol 100mg

anti-e 0.5-1mg arimiex EOD

ill be using the palumbo lean bulker diet but only having carbs with breakfast and the 2 post workout meals. days off it will be only protein and fats.

The long esters are fine....you may want to switch the deca for EQ at week 9. Im not fond of orals but if you insist on using them run the dbol weeks 5-10 for a much better synergistic effect. I would scrap the adrol completely...plus running it the last few weeks will give you a nasty crash afterwards. The adex is fine use only if necessary...I prefer aromasin or femara because they dont affect HDL like adex does. As for the diet rest days without carbs is not a great idea if you expect to grow any muscle. Carbs should be used everyday...you can adjust the levels if necessary but avoiding them completely is not good.
P

[Vitamin S]

thanks P,

can i just keep using the deca, maybe i can switch it to NPP instead of long deca? i get bad anxiety from eq.

ill scrap dbol and use anadrol only from weeks 5-10.

ill use a different anti e as well i just want to keep estrogen down because i get deca gyno and bloat when i don't use it. what would be a good amount of letro to use?

and ill keep my carbs on days off to just breakfast around 100g.

thanks.

[#8]

can i frontload a test E cycle with test suspension? if so what dose should i do and for how long?

the suspension is 125mg / ml

i will be running 250mg test E every 3 days

[Praetorian]

thanks P,

can i just keep using the deca, maybe i can switch it to NPP instead of long deca? i get bad anxiety from eq.

ill scrap dbol and use anadrol only from weeks 5-10.

ill use a different anti e as well i just want to keep estrogen down because i get deca gyno and bloat when i don't use it. what would be a good amount of letro to use?

and ill keep my carbs on days off to just breakfast around 100g.

thanks.

You can keep the deca in....better than NPP...400mg weekly is probably more than enough. 2.5mg letro EOD should be sufficient.
P

[Praetorian]

can i frontload a test E cycle with test suspension? if so what dose should i do and for how long?

the suspension is 125mg / ml

i will be running 250mg test E every 3 days

You can if you like....I would split the 125mg dose up twice daily....5ml morning and .5ml afternoon....for about 3-4 weeks.
P

[Vitamin S]

thanks as always

[Vitamin S]

question about letro

1. doesn't it lower or screw with your libido?
2. it takes a while to kick in right?
3. doesn't it also dry the joints out?

i would normally take arimidex but since its bad on lipids i can take this, but was concerned with those points?

[Praetorian]

question about letro

1. doesn't it lower or screw with your libido? ALL AI'S WILL IF OVERDONE
2. it takes a while to kick in right? COUPLE OF HOURS
3. doesn't it also dry the joints out? REDUCING ESTROGEN CAN HAVE THIS EFFECT YES BUT AGAIN IF OVERDONE FOR LONGER DURATIONS

i would normally take arimidex but since its bad on lipids i can take this, but was concerned with those points?

P

[Praetorian]

Hello there Prae!

Well.. this happens to me every time.. and in the past couple days it's hit hard. Functionally, my brain just starts shutting down.. By this I mean I can't concentrate, focus, and can't really process information. It makes studying/homework a real bitch. I know why it happens.. because I'm just not getting any glucose.. but I don't know how to work around it.

I train one muscle everyday of the week and am currently doing 50 minutes of pwo cardio everyday as well. I'm only getting 5-7g of glucose per day and that solely derives from the 4tbsp of low-cal ketchup and 1/4 cup of salsa I use as condiments. My diet is currently as followed:


*1/2 cup oatmeal
2 scoops casein

*1 can tuna

*2 tbsp nat. pb

*meat

*1/3 cup almonds
3 scoops protein
(+20g dextrose)

*2 cups green beans
meat

*8 egg whites

Total: 98gC 2119cal 264gP

Would adding in a tbsp of jam per day set me back? I dunno what to do..

Thanks!

Your problem is quite simple actually...you are teasing your brain with limited amounts of glucose....thus it is constantly looking for more hence the lethargy, lack of concentration etc. Eliminate the oatmeal and dextrose and add in some essential fats approx 15g per meal on average and wait 3 days....youll drop into ketosis and youll feel great. Try to get 40gpro+15gfat+trace carbs per meal...6 meals.
P

[Praetorian]

So just a couple quick questions to go along with this.. is my 2 cups of greens (1 cup lunch, other at supper.. works out to around 20g carbs) still aloud? The maximum g of carbs is 50/day (trace) right? and would 12g sugar throughout the day via condiments be too much? (1/2 cup salsa = 0 carbs 4g sugar. 8tbsp ketchup = 8g carbs 8g sugar)

Thanks!

Avoid any carbs in condiments especially sugars as in ketchup. 2 cups green beans per day is fine....or alternate 1 cup with a green salad such as spinach or romaine...use olive oil and vinegar as dressing...measure 1 Tbsp oil.
P

[natenator]

So when eating egg whites, all meats and everything... you just eat it plain!? :(
mustard and dijon mustard goes a long way to helping with taste :)

[MMASTAR]

lots of hot sauces have no carbs as well...

[nitrous]

hey P an easy question for ya.. waxy maize or dextrose? or vitargo or some other product for a high gi carb.. and what makes it best? thanks bro

[jamex]

Prae,

Have you encountered anyone that did not tolerate Clen very well even at low doses? I'm very sensitive to ephedrine to the point that even half of an 8mg pill will get me that dirty 'alert but can't think' feeling and tends to last most of the day. I'd like to get away from a stimulant feeling and was hoping low dose Clen would help with the fat burning during keto without being as invasive as ephedrine.

Would it be foolish to try Clen given my sensitivity to ephedrine even if I start with say half a 20mcg to guage the sides? I've read you say a few times that Clen is a bit of a different beast and isn't considered a stimulant at low doses and that could be the difference I'm looking for.

If I do decide to try it...how import is the downward taper? If you ramp up to a higher dose and then just stop without tapering down, what is the negative impact?

Thanks again.

[kawikaratekid]

The relationship between dosage and sides is not linear...it is actually a curve....which starts low and gradual but rises sharply at the 1g point.
HRT and supraphysiological doses are not comparable...that is apples to oranges. HRT tries to mimick our own hormone production. Using test for performance enhancement goes above and beyond that level thus introducing health issues. As well using test for performance enhancement is not a life long endeavour...it is cycled and then off periods are used to normalize and return to optimal health. HRT tries to maintain optimal health for the long term.
There is always a risk when going above and beyond what is normal when it comes to hormone levels...what most athletes try to do is limit the sides and maximize the gains...thus they try to stay out of the steep part of the curve.
P

I have a quick question about this....If you're getting regular blood work done at a dose of 500mg let's say and the blood work comes back slightly changed but not much. Would this be the same as doing an HRT dose?

[Praetorian]

hey P an easy question for ya.. waxy maize or dextrose? or vitargo or some other product for a high gi carb.. and what makes it best? thanks bro

waxy maize works much better in my experience....dextrose is just too tough on the gut.
P

[Praetorian]

I have a quick question about this....If you're getting regular blood work done at a dose of 500mg let's say and the blood work comes back slightly changed but not much. Would this be the same as doing an HRT dose?

500mg weekly is not an HRT dose...the idea behind HRT is to mimick the body not try to incease the dose and hope nothing goes wrong...if you are looking to be on HRT then you should be running it correctly.
P

[Praetorian]

Prae,

Have you encountered anyone that did not tolerate Clen very well even at low doses? I'm very sensitive to ephedrine to the point that even half of an 8mg pill will get me that dirty 'alert but can't think' feeling and tends to last most of the day. I'd like to get away from a stimulant feeling and was hoping low dose Clen would help with the fat burning during keto without being as invasive as ephedrine.

Would it be foolish to try Clen given my sensitivity to ephedrine even if I start with say half a 20mcg to guage the sides? I've read you say a few times that Clen is a bit of a different beast and isn't considered a stimulant at low doses and that could be the difference I'm looking for.

If I do decide to try it...how import is the downward taper? If you ramp up to a higher dose and then just stop without tapering down, what is the negative impact?

Thanks again.

My fiance is ultra sensitive to almost any pharmaceutical...if i need to test something to see if its real i can always rely on her...she can barely get away with running 20mcg clen daily. That being said most start low ie 20mcg daily and increase by small amounts every two weeks. The sides will take about a week to dissipate...if you can make it past this point youll be fine.
P

[Praetorian]

... In the house at the moment... I got my ketchup (oh how I love thee) with 1g carb and 1g sugar/tbsp, salsa with 0 carbs and 2g sugar/quarter cup, honey mustard 1g carb and 1g sugar/tbsp. But no go eh!? Hot sauce and worchestershire sauce it is...

Many sauces have carbs which you want to avoid...some good ones are Franks Red Hot, Braggs Soya, Mustard...
P

[nitrous]

waxy maize works much better in my experience....dextrose is just too tough on the gut.
P

ya waxy maize is what i've been running but was considering switching it up but that sounds good to me...

[yooN]

Hello P! I've been reading the thread and found it extremely informative.
My question to you is, how would you reintroduce carbs after dieting down from a keto diet?

I had about 45g of carbs from Brown Rice for breakfast today and a little bloated now. I'm thinking that I should add a carb meal EOD to let my body get used to processing carbs.

Thank you for an amazing thread!

[Praetorian]

Hello P! I've been reading the thread and found it extremely informative.
My question to you is, how would you reintroduce carbs after dieting down from a keto diet?

I had about 45g of carbs from Brown Rice for breakfast today and a little bloated now. I'm thinking that I should add a carb meal EOD to let my body get used to processing carbs.

Thank you for an amazing thread!

After running a keto diet or any low carb diet for that matter...you need to reintroduce carbs slowly in order to allow your body to adjust to processing them in quantity again. For most male clients adding in 30g carb every other meal usually does the trick. If you do this for a few weeks then up the quantity to about 40-45g for the next few weeks. By the 6 week mark you should be able to add carbs back in to every meal. Also you have to avoid junk food etc as there are many carbs hidden there. What I usually advocate is after the contest have a good cheat meal...then a nice breakfast ie. pancakes etc once this is over go back to the diet with the eod carb additions and also have one cheal meal per week.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

when would you incorporate rotator cuff work? i bought the shoulder horn and having good luck with it, just wanna know if im over doing it. i bench on mondays, and shoulders are fridays. not sure if i should do it before workout, or after, or on a totaly differnt day?

thx

[LIVEHARD]

My question is regarding a morning walk !!

I have exactally a 4.5 KM walk to work in the AM.
I am planning on walking to work six days a week.
Im planning on doing this walk fasted.

1/ Before my walk should I drink water only or is coffee OK ??
2/ When I arrive at work what should I eat ?
3/ Will this walk help with fat loss ??
4/ I ask because I put on some winter weight and I would like to drop my over-all BF %

[Praetorian]

p,

when would you incorporate rotator cuff work? i bought the shoulder horn and having good luck with it, just wanna know if im over doing it. i bench on mondays, and shoulders are fridays. not sure if i should do it before workout, or after, or on a totaly differnt day?

thx

Ive never had rotator cuff issues mostly because I learned ot bench etc correctly early on. Strengthening the area is a good idea however it wont help prevent an injury if you perform the exercise incorrectly. I would do the strengthening on an off day...with a rest day before chest or delts.
P

[Praetorian]

My question is regarding a morning walk !!

I have exactally a 4.5 KM walk to work in the AM.
I am planning on walking to work six days a week.
Im planning on doing this walk fasted.

1/ Before my walk should I drink water only or is coffee OK ?? BOTH ARE FINE
2/ When I arrive at work what should I eat ? REGULAR BREAKFAST
3/ Will this walk help with fat loss ?? YES BUT IF YOU ARE NOT INCREASING OVER TIME AS WELL AS ON A SPECIFIC DIET YOUR BODY WILL ADAPT AND FAT LOSS WILL STOP
4/ I ask because I put on some winter weight and I would like to drop my over-all BF %

P

[rickyboy36]

Originally Posted by LIVEHARD View Post
My question is regarding a morning walk !!

I have exactally a 4.5 KM walk to work in the AM.
I am planning on walking to work six days a week.
Im planning on doing this walk fasted.

1/ Before my walk should I drink water only or is coffee OK ?? BOTH ARE FINE
2/ When I arrive at work what should I eat ? REGULAR BREAKFAST
3/ Will this walk help with fat loss ?? YES BUT IF YOU ARE NOT INCREASING OVER TIME AS WELL AS ON A SPECIFIC DIET YOUR BODY WILL ADAPT AND FAT LOSS WILL STOP
4/ I ask because I put on some winter weight and I would like to drop my over-all BF %

Prae..wouldnt fat loss continue if he uped his intensity?What i mean by that is if he decided to walk faster or jog at a slow pace wouldnt it help with not adapting?Even though his time is brought down,his intensity goes up and therefore his body is presented with something new again..right?

[Praetorian]

Originally Posted by LIVEHARD View Post
My question is regarding a morning walk !!

I have exactally a 4.5 KM walk to work in the AM.
I am planning on walking to work six days a week.
Im planning on doing this walk fasted.

1/ Before my walk should I drink water only or is coffee OK ?? BOTH ARE FINE
2/ When I arrive at work what should I eat ? REGULAR BREAKFAST
3/ Will this walk help with fat loss ?? YES BUT IF YOU ARE NOT INCREASING OVER TIME AS WELL AS ON A SPECIFIC DIET YOUR BODY WILL ADAPT AND FAT LOSS WILL STOP
4/ I ask because I put on some winter weight and I would like to drop my over-all BF %

Prae..wouldnt fat loss continue if he uped his intensity?What i mean by that is if he decided to walk faster or jog at a slow pace wouldnt it help with not adapting?Even though his time is brought down,his intensity goes up and therefore his body is presented with something new again..right?

Fat loss would continue only if some variable was increased. If you increased intensity but decreased duration you are basically taking on step forward and one step backwards. It would be better to slowly increase duration over time as well you would have to be on a specific diet not just an offseason diet.
The adaptation time however may take awhile so it also depends on how much fat he wants to lose.
P

[rickyboy36]

Fat loss would continue only if some variable was increased. If you increased intensity but decreased duration you are basically taking on step forward and one step backwards. It would be better to slowly increase duration over time as well you would have to be on a specific diet not just an offseason diet.
The adaptation time however may take awhile so it also depends on how much fat he wants to lose.
P

Well if you look at HIIT training for example,i can reduce the amount of time on the treadmill but run the same distance and lose fat once again cause im giving my body something different.It would be like reducing time in the gym(high volume) and going more intense with lower sets but heavier weights.Thats what i thought you could do as well with the walking..

[JacktheThriller]

Sorry to come in hear Ricky but i just read your HITT comment and it gave me an idea on that increased fat burning from the change up.

If you were to increase the intensity you activate more muscles the faster you go the tighter your muscles must be through your core. Also think of the muscles used in walking vs jogging and jogging vs running. I think that the increase fat burning is in part because of the new activiation of otherwise dormant muscle groups. JMO no real data to back this up, but something to chew on

[JacktheThriller]

Sorry to come in hear Ricky but i just read your HITT comment and it gave me an idea on that increased fat burning from the change up.

If you were to increase the intensity you activate more muscles the faster you go the tighter your muscles must be through your core. Also think of the muscles used in walking vs jogging and jogging vs running. I think that the increase fat burning is in part because of the new activiation of otherwise dormant muscle groups. JMO no real data to back this up, but something to chew on

[Mastagon]

The most important set...or should I say the set that imparts the most gains is the heaviest and the first. You have the most energy, focus, drive and fuel for this set...thus you want to make it count. What is the point of pyramiding up in weight while at the same time tiring yourself out...once you reach the heaviest set your zonked. Warm up sets are just that...warmups....stimulate blood flow, prepare the body for weight, prepare the mind for weight...do not exhaust yourself but warm up enough to avoid injuries.

Here is my typical bench routine as an example...

warm up...cable crossovers light weight 2 sets 20
warm up straight bar lat pulldowns....2 sets 15
warm up triceps pushdowns light weight 2 sets 15
warm up bench press 135lbs for 12
warm up bench press 225lbs for 10
warm up bench press 315lbs for 8
warm up bench press 405lbs for 6
warm up bench press 455lbs for 3
1st set bench press 495lbs for 6-10 (basically as many as possible to failure)
2nd set bench press 445lbs for as many as possible
3rd set bench press 405lbs for as many as possible

If i am feeling stronger that day...ill do one more warm up after 455 with 495 for a single then go for 545lbs for my first set and drop from there.

P

So in looking at this, am I right in thinking that you drop a ballpark of around 10% with each successive working set?

[Praetorian]

Sorry to come in hear Ricky but i just read your HITT comment and it gave me an idea on that increased fat burning from the change up.

If you were to increase the intensity you activate more muscles the faster you go the tighter your muscles must be through your core. Also think of the muscles used in walking vs jogging and jogging vs running. I think that the increase fat burning is in part because of the new activiation of otherwise dormant muscle groups. JMO no real data to back this up, but something to chew on

You are definitely increasing energy consumption however that doesnt necessarily translate into an increase in fat burning...the source of fuel must be taken into consideration not to mention the type of diet.
P

[Mastagon]

Hey Prae,

if I understood correctly you load up the weight on your first working set and go to failure (around 5 reps), then drop the weight for your next working set and go to failure (around 7-8 reps), then drop the weight next working set again to failure (9-10 reps)



Also, I've searched this entire thready and can't seem to find where this guy got this info from. Do you actually follow the descending weight/ascending reps training like his?

Regardless, how important as far as muscle stimulation goes, is it to aim for getting about 2 more reps each set? Is there much difference say in doing what this guy says you do (5-8-10) vs:

1st set 5 reps
2nd set 6 reps
3rd set 7 reps

Thanks,

-Mast

[Praetorian]

So in looking at this, am I right in thinking that you drop a ballpark of around 10% with each successive working set?

Ive never actually run the numbers but that appears to true give or take...
P

[Praetorian]

Well if you look at HIIT training for example,i can reduce the amount of time on the treadmill but run the same distance and lose fat once again cause im giving my body something different.It would be like reducing time in the gym(high volume) and going more intense with lower sets but heavier weights.Thats what i thought you could do as well with the walking..

HIT training is just a more efficient way of fatiguing the muscles then higher volume training...the outcome technically is supposed to be the same....genetics not withstanding. HIT cardio however changes the fuel source required because you are introducing oxygen debt into the equation...so it all depends on the type of diet you are on...if keto then HIT is not the best choice and could lead to muscle loss...if low carb then HITY can be utilized but is not as efficient because glycogen must be used as part of the fuel source.
I prefer lower intensity cardio...with increases in duration over time...it is very predictable this way and will not lead to muscle loss and is not as taxing on an already overly stressed CNS.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

i was reading a response to post by george the pro creator farrarh, he mentions many people have troubles digesting dextrose/waxy maize post workout because they don't put in enough water. he actually goes to say u need 100ml for every 10g of carbs. so 100g needs 1liter of water LOL is that true as i use no where near that much, maybe half if that.

he said it has to do with absorption rate etc and osmarlity crap technical jargon.

does it matter how much water you use in shakes, creatine etc???

thx

[Praetorian]

p,

i was reading a response to post by george the pro creator farrarh, he mentions many people have troubles digesting dextrose/waxy maize post workout because they don't put in enough water. he actually goes to say u need 100ml for every 10g of carbs. so 100g needs 1liter of water LOL is that true as i use no where near that much, maybe half if that.

he said it has to do with absorption rate etc and osmarlity crap technical jargon.

does it matter how much water you use in shakes, creatine etc???

thx

I would tend to agree however i havent seen any scientific literature backing it up...i dont use 100g normallly i would use 70g or so...and about 750ml...which is probably about the same ratio.
P

[Praetorian]

Also, I've searched this entire thready and can't seem to find where this guy got this info from. Do you actually follow the descending weight/ascending reps training like his?

Regardless, how important as far as muscle stimulation goes, is it to aim for getting about 2 more reps each set? Is there much difference say in doing what this guy says you do (5-8-10) vs:

1st set 5 reps
2nd set 6 reps
3rd set 7 reps

Thanks,

-Mast

Yes thats basically what I do....first set fail around 5-6, second 7-8, third 9-10. The weight also drops each set by approx 10%. When doing this you are hitting three different areas of muscle stimulation...lower reps for strength, medium for hypertrophy, and higher to increase blood flow and pump.
P

[Mastagon]

Yes thats basically what I do....first set fail around 5-6, second 7-8, third 9-10. The weight also drops each set by approx 10%. When doing this you are hitting three different areas of muscle stimulation...lower reps for strength, medium for hypertrophy, and higher to increase blood flow and pump.
P

Good stuff. Just wanted all that cleared up.

I've reworked all my training around this 5-6, 7-8, 9-10 scheme over the past 2-3 months. This, coupled with the frequent warmups you recommend, has noticeably improved the quality of my training for every body part. It has been awesome.

Thanks

[Vitamin S]

p,

i have read you can drink injectable winny, is the same true for test suspension since both are water based?

thx

[Praetorian]

p,

i have read you can drink injectable winny, is the same true for test suspension since both are water based?

thx

You can take winstrol orally because it is 17aa which allows it to make it to the blood stream with being detroyed by the liver(first pass)....testosterone suspension is not 17aa thus it would it would be destoyed before making it to the bloodstream Methyl test is an orally active form of testosterone which is 17aa and would work however we all know it is that desirable as anabolic activity is limited and it is quite liver toxic.
P

[Vitamin S]

oh ok, i didn't know that injectabled winstrol was 17aa, i thought only the oral one was??

[IronMan]

Its the same thing, injectable and oral is all made of Stanozolol powder.

[Shaun73]

hey Prae im currently running this cycle
Test e 800 a week
Decca 600 a week
tren ace 280mg a week; 70mg 4x a week
Winstrol inj 100mg eod

i have been on for about 5 weeks now
this is leading up to a show i want to do. Now the problem is that the past week my nipples started to get sensitive. This never has happened to me before and i did run this exact cycle last time around however instead of deca i used equipoise. I usually add arimidex a little later on in the cycle about 8 weeks out. However i decided to add it in a few weeks early along with 400mg of
B6 ed. The sensitivity definately went down in the past week for sure. What i was wondering is if this issue had to do with progesterone or estrogen and if so should i be adding something to combat progesterone or just replace the decca with eq.

[Praetorian]

hey Prae im currently running this cycle
Test e 800 a week
Decca 600 a week
tren ace 280mg a week; 70mg 4x a week
Winstrol inj 100mg eod

i have been on for about 5 weeks now
this is leading up to a show i want to do. Now the problem is that the past week my nipples started to get sensitive. This never has happened to me before and i did run this exact cycle last time around however instead of deca i used equipoise. I usually add arimidex a little later on in the cycle about 8 weeks out. However i decided to add it in a few weeks early along with 400mg of
B6 ed. The sensitivity definately went down in the past week for sure. What i was wondering is if this issue had to do with progesterone or estrogen and if so should i be adding something to combat progesterone or just replace the decca with eq.

If you added the arimidex and saw a change in nipple sensitivity that would point to an estrogen issue. I would replace the deca with EQ for a number of reasons...mainly less water retention, higher RBC count(vascularity), faster in, no issues with progesterone. Not sure how far out from the show you are...but the winny doesnt need to be started until 6 weeks out. It would also be better to run 50mg ED as opposed to 100mg EOD. You can also add 20mg nolvadex daily if the estrogen remains a problem.
P

[Adonis13]

how much do you think 20 mg nolva will take away from the cycle if anything Prea?

[Praetorian]

how much do you think 20 mg nolva will take away from the cycle if anything Prea?

Very little because he is dieting so buidling muscle is not an issue.
P

[Shaun73]

thanks prae. I aggree that the eq would be better choice for this cutting stack however its hard to controle my apetite while on eq it makes me sooo damn hungry and i know its the eq. Cuz it only happens when i use it

[btufts]

prae, lately my right nipple has been lactating, lol what the **** is this? I've never used anabolics in my life, could it be my diet?

[Praetorian]

prae, lately my right nipple has been lactating, lol what the **** is this? I've never used anabolics in my life, could it be my diet?

There could be a number of reasons for this...

1. it is rare but when dieting for awhile a natural bodybuilders hormones ie testosterone etc will drop...when reintroducing higher calories...ie higher carb days, cheat meals etc hormones can then increase but the liver isnt as efficient at breaking them down and lactating hormones can build up in the blood causing lactation

2. medications or herbs...phenothiazines, metaclopromide, domperidone, estrogen (or phytoestrogens), prolactin, fenugreek, and blessed thistle, all can contribute to initiating and then maintaining lactation in a males

3. taking OTC prohormones etc can mess with hormone production

Dositnex along with some nolvadex should alleviatethe issue quite quickly...but you want to isolate why it began in the first place if possible

P

[troy_trinity]

prae what do you reccomend for offseason gh mass protocol when working out 4x/ week?

[Praetorian]

prae what do you reccomend for offseason gh mass protocol when working out 4x/ week?

For optimum results you need to run the GH for months not weeks. Depending on lean body mass youll need a decent dosage...4-10 iu daily(chinese)...the higher the lean mass the more youll need. You also need to run a moderate dose of test and eat 6-7 balanced meals daily.
P

[troy_trinity]

For optimum results you need to run the GH for months not weeks. Depending on lean body mass youll need a decent dosage...4-10 iu daily(chinese)...the higher the lean mass the more youll need. You also need to run a moderate dose of test and eat 6-7 balanced meals daily.
P

guess I didn't give you enought info there bro :)

already been on gh 5iu's every morning for a couple of months. And cycling aas usual.

For offseason though I'm debating which protocol to use as far as milo's, gavin kanes, ed normal protocol etc.

I'm not wanting to do the slin right now so I'm guessing milos and GK protocol's arent an option but I'm not sure if the body will be doing any good with 10iu's ed pwo (on training days) and 10iu's in the morning non-training days without the use of slin?

And also not sure wether to just opt for the only after workout protcol equaling about 17ius gh 4x/week

I've just been keeping it simple with the 5iu's in the morning but for the offseason mass I'm not sure which direction to go in... Too many protocols lol.

[Praetorian]

guess I didn't give you enought info there bro :)

already been on gh 5iu's every morning for a couple of months. And cycling aas usual.

For offseason though I'm debating which protocol to use as far as milo's, gavin kanes, ed normal protocol etc.

I'm not wanting to do the slin right now so I'm guessing milos and GK protocol's arent an option but I'm not sure if the body will be doing any good with 10iu's ed pwo (on training days) and 10iu's in the morning non-training days without the use of slin?

And also not sure wether to just opt for the only after workout protcol equaling about 17ius gh 4x/week

I've just been keeping it simple with the 5iu's in the morning but for the offseason mass I'm not sure which direction to go in... Too many protocols lol.

For optimum results with GH it should be used in a manner that mimicks the bodies endogenous GH...that means a pulsatile effect throughout the day. Taking large doses at once is a waste because the growth achieved from GH actually comes from IGF-1 mediated by the liver. Because the liver can only produce so much IGF-1 at one time (maximum from about 6iu GH) it is a waste to use more than that. Again these numbers are dependant on the GH quality obviously. It would much wiser to do multiple shots of 5iu etc. Slin is not necessary when using GH...it can be used however if growth has halted...but if it is not required it will basically just make you fat. GH should always be run every day..skipping days will slow progress.
P

[Sandwiches]

For optimum results with GH it should be used in a manner that mimicks the bodies endogenous GH...that means a pulsatile effect throughout the day. Taking large doses at once is a waste because the growth achieved from GH actually comes from IGF-1 mediated by the liver. Because the liver can only produce so much IGF-1 at one time (maximum from about 6iu GH) it is a waste to use more than that. Again these numbers are dependant on the GH quality obviously. It would much wiser to do multiple shots of 5iu etc. Slin is not necessary when using GH...it can be used however if growth has halted...but if it is not required it will basically just make you fat. GH should always be run every day..skipping days will slow progress.P

is there anything i can read to back this up?

[Praetorian]

is there anything i can read to back this up?

Plenty but it wont be in the New England Journal of Medicine and you will have to sort through a tonne of misinformation to find it.
P

[#8]

How does one build the very middle of the chest? My strength and size have come back since shoulder problems and proper form have been corrected but I never seem to build any mass / strength from the middle of my chest?

What are the best exercises to specifically target that area and what rep range should be used when doing them?

[Praetorian]

How does one build the very middle of the chest? My strength and size have come back since shoulder problems and proper form have been corrected but I never seem to build any mass / strength from the middle of my chest?

What are the best exercises to specifically target that area and what rep range should be used when doing them?

You cannot isolate a portion of the pectoral muscle without hitting the entire muscle itself...that being said you can emphasize certain areas ie upper , inner ,lower but without actually developing the entire pec muscle you cannot improve any significant middle chest development. As with any muscle group for maximum hypertrophy the rep range should fall somewhere between 5-10. I prefer to hit the entire range and on the first set fail around 5-6, second set fail around 7-8, and third set fail around 8-10. The main exercises for chest development are flat and incline barbell and dumbbell presses and flying movements, ie dumbbell flyes, cable crossovers, pec dec. I would suggest cable crossovers first and really squeeze the inner chest when the arms come together, followed by flat barbell bench presses, and finally incline dumbbell flyes. A final higher rep (10-12) set of pec decs concentrating on the flexxing inner chest can also be used.
P

[btufts]

There could be a number of reasons for this...

1. it is rare but when dieting for awhile a natural bodybuilders hormones ie testosterone etc will drop...when reintroducing higher calories...ie higher carb days, cheat meals etc hormones can then increase but the liver isnt as efficient at breaking them down and lactating hormones can build up in the blood causing lactation

2. medications or herbs...phenothiazines, metaclopromide, domperidone, estrogen (or phytoestrogens), prolactin, fenugreek, and blessed thistle, all can contribute to initiating and then maintaining lactation in a males

3. taking OTC prohormones etc can mess with hormone production

Dositnex along with some nolvadex should alleviatethe issue quite quickly...but you want to isolate why it began in the first place if possible

P

Thanks p, I'll have to grab some nolva, Maybe two carb ups in the week would help

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE=btufts;356035]Thanks p, I'll have to grab some nolva, Maybe two carb ups in the week would help[/QUOT

You may have to try both dostinex and/or nolva...it all depends which hormone is dominant and causing the issue..ie estrogen or progesterone/prolactin. Are you on a keto diet...if so you can only have one cheat meal per week.
P

[tiramisu]

... or there is always the possibility that he is pregnant.

All kidding aside. I haven't had to deal with significant estrogen/progesterone sides. At what point do you pull the plug on self medication with nolva/caber and get thee to an endicrinologist?

Not that I don't like small firm breasts but generally I prefer them on women.

[Praetorian]

... or there is always the possibility that he is pregnant.

All kidding aside. I haven't had to deal with significant estrogen/progesterone sides. At what point do you pull the plug on self medication with nolva/caber and get thee to an endicrinologist?

Not that I don't like small firm breasts but generally I prefer them on women.

Definitely agree...thats why the dostinex/nolva is basically a short term treatment but does not address the underlying cause which should be the ultimate goal...as posted above.
P

[jamex]

Hi Prae,

Is it fairly mandatory to supplement Taurine with Clen? On keto I'm eating eggs and fish daily and would think that provides enough dietary source of Taurine to avoid any deficiencies, however this will be my first experience with Clen.

Would it be safe to skip the Taurine for now and then pick some up if I find I'm cramping up or does pretty much everyone get cramps at some point in the cycle if they're not supplementing Taurine?

Thanks.

[Praetorian]

Hi Prae,

Is it fairly mandatory to supplement Taurine with Clen? On keto I'm eating eggs and fish daily and would think that provides enough dietary source of Taurine to avoid any deficiencies, however this will be my first experience with Clen.

Would it be safe to skip the Taurine for now and then pick some up if I find I'm cramping up or does pretty much everyone get cramps at some point in the cycle if they're not supplementing Taurine?

Thanks.

No it is not mandatory and it also is not always the cause of cramping when taking clen. Clen can deplete taurine levels however it does also act as a mild diuretic which will tend to leach electrolytes which can lead to cramping. Make sure you are drinking plenty of water and getting adequate sodium. If you do this and still experience cramps then taurine may be an option. I have never needed taurine when running clen but you may be different.
P

[Vitamin S]

P,

what is the best exercise to increase shoulder peak? by peak i mean when for instance sitting in a preacher curl machine, your shoulder hangs over the bench and the front delt peak sticks out, mine is FUKKIN zero loll side delts are doing good, but i want some more peak drop on the front of the delt.

thx :)

[Praetorian]

P,

what is the best exercise to increase shoulder peak? by peak i mean when for instance sitting in a preacher curl machine, your shoulder hangs over the bench and the front delt peak sticks out, mine is FUKKIN zero loll side delts are doing good, but i want some more peak drop on the front of the delt.

thx :)

Shoulder presses to the front of the head as well as front raises. Most people get plenty of front delt work on bench presses and close grip benches.
P

[btufts]

Yep still on keto, so no second cheat day. How long would you take anavar for p?

[Praetorian]

Yep still on keto, so no second cheat day. How long would you take anavar for p?

I wouldnt....i dont like anavar for men its weak and expensive...there are much better choices.
P

[btufts]

Ah well it seems I have stumbled upon some along with the clen, will I see decent results with the two?

[Praetorian]

Ah well it seems I have stumbled upon some along with the clen, will I see decent results with the two?

You will see better results than if you didnt use them for sure...
P

[rickyboy36]

I wouldnt....i dont like anavar for men its weak and expensive...there are much better choices.
P

Again,its week because people dont dose high enough.30-40mgs aint going to get you nowhere.Try it at 100-120mgs a day,then come back and tell me its week.Anavar will give you steady and permanent gains and will make you just as hard(if not harder) than tren.If you can cap anavar yourself,it really isnt that expensive

[Praetorian]

Again,its week because people dont dose high enough.30-40mgs aint going to get you nowhere.Try it at 100-120mgs a day,then come back and tell me its week.Anavar will give you steady and permanent gains and will make you just as hard(if not harder) than tren.If you can cap anavar yourself,it really isnt that expensive

Using excessive dosages of a weaker drug does not make it better. There are much better choices for men that anavar....and no it will never compare to tren even at excessive dosages because the androgen level will never be as high as tren. There are aas to use for specific goals....yes a higher dosage will yield better results to a point....but it doesnt make it better than an aas used for that specific purpose....ie var vs tren or var vs winny....both tren and winny will always trump var based on their chemical structure and specific action.
P

[waderow]

trens pretty awesome.
agreed

buuuut, I cant do the night sweats things anymore. I will opt for high dose var, and it works pretty good

[btufts]

well i started it today at 25mg, along with 100mcg of clen in the morning. 6 weeks left to go till contest i'm very close to my goals right now so hopefully this will help out even more

[Praetorian]

well i started it today at 25mg, along with 100mcg of clen in the morning. 6 weeks left to go till contest i'm very close to my goals right now so hopefully this will help out even more

It will help harden you up and mainain strength.
P

[Vitamin S]

you'd be suprised how often winny is even sold as var. no one has probably even tried pharmaceutical grade anavar at 100mg per day LOL.

winny will blow it out of the water. try 50mg orally and 50mg injectable daily and then watch and see the results :)

[dremen]

Again,its week because people dont dose high enough.30-40mgs aint going to get you nowhere.Try it at 100-120mgs a day,then come back and tell me its week.Anavar will give you steady and permanent gains and will make you just as hard(if not harder) than tren.If you can cap anavar yourself,it really isnt that expensive

Oh man i have to agree with ya for sure. I tried my liquid var around 150-200mg/ed for about a week during my last cycle and holy shit was it awesome. Pumps lasted long after i was done at the gym, strength went up way faster then with dbol and muscles were very very hard.

Var is way under rated IMHO.

[Delt King]

Hey P,

I've got some nasty stretch marks inside one of my armpits, it looks like a bear clawed me..... anyways i understand they're pretty much permanent but do you have any suggestions on how to make them look better/less nasty?

Thanks

Retin-A

http://ezinearticles.com/?Remove-Stretch-Marks-Fast&id=297988

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

I've got some nasty stretch marks inside one of my armpits, it looks like a bear clawed me..... anyways i understand they're pretty much permanent but do you have any suggestions on how to make them look better/less nasty?

Thanks

You basically have them for life....a tan will help make them less obvious and you can get some vitamin E capsules...break them up and rub the oil onto the stretch mark itself.
P

[tiramisu]

mmm, oily stretch marks. I'm not convinced of the vitamin e thing boss.
yup tanning makes them blend in a little.

really there's not much you can do other than try to make everything else look good enough so that they know you earned em.

[Delt King]

Thanks for the suggestions,

DK - do you know roughly how much Retin-A costs??

If these stay looking the way they look now I'll just make up some heroic story of saving a child from a bear or wolverine....something along those lines lol

Prescription drug. Talk to your doc. It only works when they're brand new stretch marks though.

[Praetorian]

mmm, oily stretch marks. I'm not convinced of the vitamin e thing boss.
yup tanning makes them blend in a little.

really there's not much you can do other than try to make everything else look good enough so that they know you earned em.

Vitamin E actually works quite well....ive used it on both bicep tendon surgery scars.
P

[Sandwiches]

Vitamin E actually works quite well....ive used it on both bicep tendon surgery scars.
P

i'll agree.. vitamin e works very well, especially when put on after a hot shower

[nitrous]

Hey P.. test prop 500mg a week and tren a 350mg a week.. Aromasin should it be at 12.5mg ED or EOD?

[uphgrn]

Praetorian
is there any risk taking Clarus (form of acutane) with steroids?

[Praetorian]

Hey P.. test prop 500mg a week and tren a 350mg a week.. Aromasin should it be at 12.5mg ED or EOD?

You will get very little aromatization with 500mg weekly test prop...you could do one of two things....hold off on the aromasin unless you see sides....or run 12.5mg EOD...I would hold off personally.
P

[Praetorian]

Praetorian
is there any risk taking Clarus (form of acutane) with steroids?

Many BB have run accutane while on cycle with minimal risk. There is a risk however of negative hepatic effects....increased liver enzymes....thus you would want to avoid any oral aas while running accutane...and get regular blood work done.
P

[uphgrn]

Thanks,
It's for my wife, she was running 10m/g of Var daily but she is off now, but she wants to start again in 4-6 weeks, I thought she could but with adding milk thistle and getting regular blood work.Sound ok?

[nitrous]

You will get very little aromatization with 500mg weekly test prop...you could do one of two things....hold off on the aromasin unless you see sides....or run 12.5mg EOD...I would hold off personally.
P

sounds good thanks P.. you think 500mg test prop and 350mg tren ace needs to be injected ED or would EOD be alright? so far i've been doing it ED

[jamex]

My fiance is ultra sensitive to almost any pharmaceutical...if i need to test something to see if its real i can always rely on her...she can barely get away with running 20mcg clen daily. That being said most start low ie 20mcg daily and increase by small amounts every two weeks. The sides will take about a week to dissipate...if you can make it past this point youll be fine.
P

I started 20mcg on saturday. Has familiar stimulant mental properties but heartrate is pretty low to be honest. My normal resting heartrate is usually around 60 during the day and this hasn't increased really and when lying down i checked with a monitor and was getting as low as 49 at night.

The first day I started clen, i took my BP at a pharmacy and measured 118\63 with 60bpm. Everything seems in check. But with the keto I find i'm actually cold still and heart rate just seems low and energy aint that great after around 2pm.

Does this sound normal to you? WOrth noting I've cut out all caffeine since starting clen and have noticed some withdrawal from that this week.

[Praetorian]

Thanks,
It's for my wife, she was running 10m/g of Var daily but she is off now, but she wants to start again in 4-6 weeks, I thought she could but with adding milk thistle and getting regular blood work.Sound ok?

I would suggest running a liver cleanse first...then running the accutane without aas. One you run accutane once you usually dont have to use it again. She can then go back to the var.
P

[Praetorian]

sounds good thanks P.. you think 500mg test prop and 350mg tren ace needs to be injected ED or would EOD be alright? so far i've been doing it ED

For the most stable blood levels ED is best however EOD will work and ive never noticed much difference when all is said and done.
P

[Praetorian]

I started 20mcg on sunday. Has familiar stimulant mental properties but heartrate is pretty low to be honest. My normal resting heartrate is usually around 60 during the day and this hasn't increased really and when lying down i checked with a monitor and was getting as low as 49 at night.

The first day I started clen, i took my BP at a pharmacy and measured 118\63 with 60bpm. Everything seems in check. But with the keto I find i'm actually cold still and heart rate just seems low and energy aint that great after around 2pm.

Does this sound normal to you? WOrth noting I've cut out all caffeine since starting clen and have noticed some withdrawal from that this week.

Clen is not a stimulant and wont raise blood pressure...it will actually lower it. 20mcg daily is a very low dose so dont expect much in the way of sides or fat burning effects...raise the dose by 20mcg every two weeks until you hit 120mcg daily..then leave it there until the end of the diet....taper off.
P

[nitrous]

For the most stable blood levels ED is best however EOD will work and ive never noticed much difference when all is said and done.
P

exactly what i wanted to hear thanks bro

[z83]

Hi P,

If you had to choose something to assist fat loss...assuming diet/training is spot on, which would you choose ? Combined with 500mg Test E or C : Helios, LipoEX, T3, clen ?

T3 was my main choice. I want to avoid adrenal fatigue/crash like ephedrine did last time i ran it. I would also like to sleep properly :D

Thanks

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

If you had to choose something to assist fat loss...assuming diet/training is spot on, which would you choose ? Combined with 500mg Test E or C : Helios, LipoEX, T3, clen ?

T3 was my main choice. I want to avoid adrenal fatigue/crash like ephedrine did last time i ran it. I would also like to sleep properly :D

Thanks

Combined with the test T3 and clen are the most potent and wont affect adrenals. LipoEx and helios are crap.
P

[declan]

Combined with the test T3 and clen are the most potent and wont affect adrenals. LipoEx and helios are crap.
P

Are you talking about the injectable helios? I thought the synergy between clen and yohimbe provides a better fat burning effect than straight clen. I'm not gonna parrot about it having spot reduction properties though :)

[tiramisu]

Are you talking about the injectable helios? I thought the synergy between clen and yohimbe provides a better fat burning effect than straight clen. I'm not gonna parrot about it having spot reduction properties though :)

It will be nice if the U.S. passes the new supplement bill and all the bullshit supplements are either banned or required to make honest claims.

[Praetorian]

Are you talking about the injectable helios? I thought the synergy between clen and yohimbe provides a better fat burning effect than straight clen. I'm not gonna parrot about it having spot reduction properties though :)

Yes thats the one...there is no synergistic effect....clen is abeta 2 specific agonist, yohimbe is a stimulant based norepinephrine releaser with a host of nasty sides. There also is no spot reduction with helios period. Its an old 80's formula being remarketed to the misinformed.
P

[z83]

Combined with the test T3 and clen are the most potent and wont affect adrenals. LipoEx and helios are crap.
P

would you suggest both at the same time ?

I thought about T3 while on test and clen during PCT... ?

Thanks sir

[Praetorian]

would you suggest both at the same time ?

I thought about T3 while on test and clen during PCT... ?

Thanks sir

Both at the same time will yield much better results...1+1=3. You can keep the clen in at a lower does during PCT as well.
P

[steve_o]

Hey P,

I was wondering if you would be able to suggest an appropriate PCT for me which included Clen.

I am currently in Week 3 of this cycle:

Week 1 - 12 - Test E 500mg/week
Week 3-14 - HcG 250iu x 2/week
Week 4-9 - Oral Turanabol 40mg/day
Week 15-19or 20 - PCT

Proposed PCT

Clomid - 100/50/50/50/25
Nolva - 40/40/20/20/10

If I were to add clen in the mix for weight loss after the cycle when would you suggest I start. I have already research it and noticed that you preferred 40mg per day for 2 weeks then up it by 20mg every week until 120mg then taper down from there after diet is completed. Any help would be much appreciated.

[z83]

Both at the same time will yield much better results...1+1=3. You can keep the clen in at a lower does during PCT as well.
P

what's the best protocol ? I hear 2weeks on, 2 off. Add some meds to clear receptors.

[Praetorian]

what's the best protocol ? I hear 2weeks on, 2 off. Add some meds to clear receptors.

Thats 80's old school misinformation...run the T3 and clen for 16 weeks...tapering up slowly and taper down as well. There is no need to run 2 on 2 off or use ketotifen or benadryl etc they are a waste.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

I was wondering if you would be able to suggest an appropriate PCT for me which included Clen.

I am currently in Week 3 of this cycle:

Week 1 - 12 - Test E 500mg/week
Week 3-14 - HcG 250iu x 2/week
Week 4-9 - Oral Turanabol 40mg/day
Week 15-19or 20 - PCT

Proposed PCT

Clomid - 100/50/50/50/25
Nolva - 40/40/20/20/10

If I were to add clen in the mix for weight loss after the cycle when would you suggest I start. I have already research it and noticed that you preferred 40mg per day for 2 weeks then up it by 20mg every week until 120mg then taper down from there after diet is completed. Any help would be much appreciated.

HCG 1500 iu ETD starting one week after your last test shot for a total of 10,000iu
clomid 50mg twice daily for three weeks once HCG is finished
Use an AI concurrently with the HCG and clomid...12.5mg aromasin ED is fine
Nolva can be used in conjunction with clomid 20mg daily if u have it

Never do a "weight loss" after your cycle....thats a time for PCT and to normalize....if you want to diet plan for it and run it with a decent cycle for a decent time.
P

[IronMan]

HCG 1500 iu ETD starting one week after your last test shot for a total of 10,000iu
clomid 50mg twice daily for three weeks once HCG is finished
Use an AI concurrently with the HCG and clomid...12.5mg aromasin ED is fine
Nolva can be used in conjunction with clomid 20mg daily if u have it

Never do a "weight loss" after your cycle....thats a time for PCT and to normalize....if you want to diet plan for it and run it with a decent cycle for a decent time.
P

This is without a doubt the BEST freaking PCT advice any of use can reveive, especiall for FREE! We owe Praetorian a big THANK YOU!!!!!!!

[declan]

Yes thats the one...there is no synergistic effect....clen is abeta 2 specific agonist, yohimbe is a stimulant based norepinephrine releaser with a host of nasty sides. There also is no spot reduction with helios period. Its an old 80's formula being remarketed to the misinformed.
P

I've been had then lol. To be honest, you are the first person to point out the detrimental effect of yohimbe in helios on my research before I bought it. I've been on it for a week and it is working so far, I'll just finish all vials and stick to clen tabs next time around.

Thanks Prae.

[Praetorian]

I've been had then lol. To be honest, you are the first person to point out the detrimental effect of yohimbe in helios on my research before I bought it. I've been on it for a week and it is working so far, I'll just finish all vials and stick to clen tabs next time around.

Thanks Prae.

Dont get me wrong...yohimbe has shown positive results with respect to fat loss...and nobody is doubting the clen however the marketing behind the product is very misleading and the promises made just dont materialize. Not to mention the detrimental sides associated with yohimbe...the end result is that there are much better choices out there.
P

[Vitamin S]

hey P,

lol this is a weird one. i have stretch marks all over like anyone with years of lifting all are very faint. but the other day i worked out after a while like 3 weeks off, i did chest back and when i woke up yesterday i noticed rednesss on my upper left lat area close to armpit. when i stretched my arm out it appeared as if the stretch marks re-ignited as if they just are new stretch marks reddish color.

i was like am i tripping out how can they appear over ngith, perhaps i preseed my back against a machine and its just bruising over the stretch marks not sure??

not a big deal ill know in a week if they stay i just found it very odd for stretch marks to appear over night. i have them in the exact same spot on my other lat, and they are super faint u can't even tell, i would assume if they were to appear it would be on both sides lol ?

[Ritch]

I`ve never really heard of any sides from yohimbe. Yohimbe was in the original MD 6 from biotest and that stuff worked very well. What am I looking at here Prae in terms of sides?

Thanks!

[Praetorian]

I`ve never really heard of any sides from yohimbe. Yohimbe was in the original MD 6 from biotest and that stuff worked very well. What am I looking at here Prae in terms of sides?

Thanks!

Its dose dependant...anxiety, tremors, CNS stimulation, irritability, nervousness, MAO inhibitor at higher doses, headaches, dizziness, etc
P

[Praetorian]

hey P,

lol this is a weird one. i have stretch marks all over like anyone with years of lifting all are very faint. but the other day i worked out after a while like 3 weeks off, i did chest back and when i woke up yesterday i noticed rednesss on my upper left lat area close to armpit. when i stretched my arm out it appeared as if the stretch marks re-ignited as if they just are new stretch marks reddish color.

i was like am i tripping out how can they appear over ngith, perhaps i preseed my back against a machine and its just bruising over the stretch marks not sure??

not a big deal ill know in a week if they stay i just found it very odd for stretch marks to appear over night. i have them in the exact same spot on my other lat, and they are super faint u can't even tell, i would assume if they were to appear it would be on both sides lol ?

Keep an eye on them...if its just bruising they will disappear.
P

[pcruiser73]

Hey Prae, I am in the 5th week of a bulking cycle using 1g test and 700mg deca per week along with 6iu GH per day. I was on a maintenance diet of roughly 2200 cals mostly protein and fat. Now I am eating 3500-4000 cals per day 50g protein, 50g carbs, 20g fat each meal 6-7 meals per day. I have gained about 17 lbs so far, mostly water, strength is going up nicely, typical results like past cycles. The only thing is that I havent gained any fat, in fact it seems like I may be even getting a little leaner. I am only doing mild cardio 2 days per week(if even). My question is should I be eating even more to realize the best gains possible. I know its desireable to gain a little fat during cycle to ensure you are in a calorie surplus environment. I am 5'11" 225 lbs and roughly 10-11% fat.
thanks