Decided against the Palumbo diet.

[JonnyO]

who eats processed carbohydrates when dieting for a show anyways?

[steve_d]

that is actually a pretty ignorant thing to say. Back up your opinion at the very least.

I think everyone on this site can say and you would have to agree yourself that you are a genetic anomaly as you could probably eat mcpukes and still maintain a semi lean physique. We're not all as blessed as you are.

In greg's defence, he is not a genetic anomaly. It takes work to maintain a semi-lean physique, we all know it, and greg is no different. He trains harder than anyone I know. I find I train harder then anyone I know, and compared to greg, I am a recreational gym-gower.

The original poster wants to lose a few pounds, nothing crazy, and I don't think he needs to do a ketogenic diet. It's not only the discipline while dieting you need to worry about, its the post-diet. If he's anything like 95% of the population, after the diet carbs will become his best friend, and I think it would be easier to adjust to that when he's used to eating a few carbs while dieting.

Personally never done a keto diet in the true sense of the word, neither has Greg...But it's not like were consuming half our calories from carbs...an apple here and there, enough to fuel a heavy set of deadlifts or squats, and that's about it.

All reasonable diets work, and all reasonable diets work for everyone, as long as you're doing it right. some may work slightly better - but that's about it. Someone looking to get down from 12% to 8% can basically just cut our a few calories from whatever he eat and its going to work.

[gregdoucette]

Its not like I have not reserached these diets for the past 15 years or something. Just read studies on the matter. Anytime a diet recoments u dont eat an entire food group do u really think its healthy. How can not eating brocolie or letuce spinach be a good idea. Waht kind of nonsence is it to tell someone to now eat some of the healthiest foods on the planet. It makes no sence whatsoever. This is what happens, people want to make money so they come up with a diff idea and try to market it. Hence the no carb diet. So think of it people does it make sence to eat no carbs all weak thne big out on french fries and burgers. And eating all kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol. Do people have no interest in living. Dieting to crazzy low %'s and dehydrating and all these things we do to get in contest shape is unhealthy enough without having a diet low in vitimans and which does not include fiber. causes constipation to name a few. A girl was over last night on this exact diet and she had to leave early befroe the party even started because of her stomach pains. its not worth it there are better ways that make more scientifit sense.

[Praetorian]

Wow, lol, it's a little ridiculous that anytime someone is going to diet the automatic response from 99% of people on this board is "KETO DIET!" without realizing that everyones metabolic/calorie demands (and goals) are different
MANY ON THIS BOARD DO NOT USE KETO WHICH IS FINE...IS ONLY AN ALTERNATIVE WHICH BECAUSE OF IGNORANCE AND INEXPERIENCE PEOPLE WILL CALL EXTREME...THERE IS NOTHING EXTREME ABOUT KETOSIS PERIOD

no
The reason for metabolic derangements is not from refined carbohydrate (or carbs at all) it is a result of caloric intake imbalances from a lack of physical activity combined with an overabundance of food. This imbalance leads to obesity which THEN causes a plethora of problems
NOT SURE WHAT YOUR DEFINING AS METABOLIC DERANGEMENT?? LOOK AT STATISTICS PROVIDED BY FOOD CANADA AND BY THE USFDA YOU WILL SEE A DIRECT CORRELATION WITH DISEASE AND THE PRODUCTION OF HFCS....THIS IS USED IN ALMOST 90% OF FOODS TODAY IN NA. YES OVERABUNDANCE OF FOODS SPECIFICALLY PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE. OBESITY IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE TYPES OF FOODS EATEN...THERE IS TONNES OF RESEARCH ON THIS, DOCUMETARIES, JOURNAL ARTICLES....THIS IS NOT SOMETHING NEW....IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH LACK OF ACTIVITY...BECAUSE IF THE DIET WAS CORRECT LACK OF ACTIVITY WOULD NOT RESULT IN THE OBESITY LEVELS WE SEE TODAY....YOU NEED A DRASTIC CHANGE TO MAKE A DRASTIC CHANGE...LOOK AT THE NUMBERS...ITS QUITE SIMPLE


Do you have studies showing that cholesterol problems/etc are a result of carbohydrate? And do these studies show that carbohydrates caused illness/deficiences?

THERE ARE MANY....IF YOU DOUBT WHAT I POSTED ASK JOHN MEADOWS (Mountaindog on this board) FOR THAT MATTER, OR ASK NUTRITIONIST...THE INFORMATION IS READILY AVAILABLE....AND NO PLEASE DO NOT MISINTERPRET WHAT I POSTED....I NEVER SAID CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE ILLNESS OR DISEASE...I SAID WITH THE ADVENT OF PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE MAINLY HFCS THE INCIDENCE OF DISEASE HAS RISEN DRAMATICALLY...TO THINK OTHERWISE IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETEND IT DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE YOU CANT SEE IT.

P

Caps are used only to differentiate my comments.

[Praetorian]

Its not like I have not reserached these diets for the past 15 years or something. Just read studies on the matter. Anytime a diet recoments u dont eat an entire food group do u really think its healthy. How can not eating brocolie or letuce spinach be a good idea. Waht kind of nonsence is it to tell someone to now eat some of the healthiest foods on the planet. It makes no sence whatsoever. This is what happens, people want to make money so they come up with a diff idea and try to market it. Hence the no carb diet. So think of it people does it make sence to eat no carbs all weak thne big out on french fries and burgers. And eating all kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol. Do people have no interest in living. Dieting to crazzy low %'s and dehydrating and all these things we do to get in contest shape is unhealthy enough without having a diet low in vitimans and which does not include fiber. causes constipation to name a few. A girl was over last night on this exact diet and she had to leave early befroe the party even started because of her stomach pains. its not worth it there are better ways that make more scientifit sense.

I am not sure what diet you are speaking about but its not the keto diet that is being discussed here. The information presented above illustrates that your understanding of this keto diet is quite limited as you say and I understand why it may seem like nonsense to you without the correct information.
Here is the misinformation:
1. you do NOT avoid all carbohydrates?...who came up with this?
2. fibre is used and is essential...where did no fibre use come from?
3. Low in vitamins? how?
4. All kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol...what diet are you refrring to?

This keto diet is attacked based on the lack of information or should i say misinformation as to how the body actually works and how it utilizes speficic nutrients during specific times and situations.
P

PS some great reading and information...

-Fatwars by Brad King....
-Good carbs Bad carbs....Jay Robb
-Fats that heal Fats that kill....Udo Erasmus

[Praetorian]

who eats processed carbohydrates when dieting for a show anyways?

Hmm not sure....rice, oatmeal, pasta, rice cakes, ...many diet using these items.
P

[Praetorian]

In greg's defence, he is not a genetic anomaly. It takes work to maintain a semi-lean physique, we all know it, and greg is no different. He trains harder than anyone I know. I find I train harder then anyone I know, and compared to greg, I am a recreational gym-gower.

The original poster wants to lose a few pounds, nothing crazy, and I don't think he needs to do a ketogenic diet. It's not only the discipline while dieting you need to worry about, its the post-diet. If he's anything like 95% of the population, after the diet carbs will become his best friend, and I think it would be easier to adjust to that when he's used to eating a few carbs while dieting.

Personally never done a keto diet in the true sense of the word, neither has Greg...But it's not like were consuming half our calories from carbs...an apple here and there, enough to fuel a heavy set of deadlifts or squats, and that's about it.

All reasonable diets work, and all reasonable diets work for everyone, as long as you're doing it right. some may work slightly better - but that's about it. Someone looking to get down from 12% to 8% can basically just cut our a few calories from whatever he eat and its going to work.

Thats why if you are going to compare the two diets at least be able to discuss them intelligently with the experience of running both correctly multiple times so you can discuss both limitations and advantages you have documented on yourself and others. As discussed there are many forms of diets available....keto is but one of them and it is no more extreme than any other.
P

[Ritch]

P, what I don`t understand how you underline carbs as being bad in the sense of people becoming diabetic because of them. That`s an extreme example I find. It`s taking the worse case scenario of what they can do to your body and use it as an example to underline them being problematic.

But the person who`s smart and exercises is in a different situation. Their body uses the carbs and they won`t be plagued with all the negative stuff you talk about. I`m also willing to bet those "sides" won`t happen to anybody on this board as they train and don`t eat just carbs... They eat them with proteins and fats most the time. So what you say about the carbs is true in the case of them being bad if people eat just carbs, with no protein and don`t exercise.

But how does that relate to people on this board? It dosen`t make sense to me. You throw in that example of carbs causing disease and unhealthy bodies, but that will never happen to the context I`m refering to. You`re stating all the negatives about them, almost trying to scare people from them.

And the people you helped I`m sure their problems would have been solved by just eating healthier. So just because carbs made messed up their lives, dosen`t mean carbs will do the same to others. So I find it hard to believe that keto saved their lives and health problems, when something more simple and easy to follow would have helped them just the same and alllow them to enjoy more food groups.

So again, as Gregg said, why give up carbs when you don`t have to, because unless you want to get crazy ripped, and are an endomorph, I don`t see how this diet is necessary. And yes I understand the diet, so that is not an argument here.

[Praetorian]

P, what I don`t understand how you underline carbs as being bad in the sense of people becoming diabetic because of them. That`s an extreme example I find. It`s taking the worse case scenario of what they can do to your body and use it as an example to underline them being problematic.

But the person who`s smart and exercises is in a different situation. Their body uses the carbs and they won`t be plagued with all the negative stuff you talk about. I`m also willing to bet those "sides" won`t happen to anybody on this board as they train and don`t eat just carbs... They eat them with proteins and fats most the time. So what you say about the carbs is true in the case of them being bad if people eat just carbs, with no protein and don`t exercise.

But how does that relate to people on this board? It dosen`t make sense to me. You throw in that example of carbs causing disease and unhealthy bodies, but that will never happen to the context I`m refering to. You`re stating all the negatives about them, almost trying to scare people from them.

And the people you helped I`m sure their problems would have been solved by just eating healthier. So just because carbs made messed up their lives, dosen`t mean carbs will do the same to others. So I find it hard to believe that keto saved their lives and health problems, when something more simple and easy to follow would have helped them just the same and alllow them to enjoy more food groups.

So again, as Gregg said, why give up carbs when you don`t have to, because unless you want to get crazy ripped, and are an endomorph, I don`t see how this diet is necessary. And yes I understand the diet, so that is not an argument here.

Ritch as I posted above I never said carbs cause disease etc...the term carbs is being generalized on here when I have been completely specific. I posted the increase of processed carbohydrate correlates specifically to the increase in disease in the NA population...namely obesity, type 2 diabetes (in children which is scary..not seen till a few years ago) and cholesterol and heart issues.
Not once did I ever say not to eat carbs....in fact I have said it many times that carbs are necessary on the keto diet for training purposes...his would be a moot discussion if everyone understood how the body works in relation to a specific fuel source while doing specific types of exercise....if that were the case no one would be arguing that a keto diet is unhealthy...thats called misinformation. The difference between this keto diet and a regular low carb diet is the mainly the amount of carbs and to a smaller degree fats....keto about 50g carbs per day...low carb depends on the individual...but as low as 100g per day on low days. People tend to speak in extremes when they talk keto but that is just not the case. The keto diet as I have posted before has been used quite successfully by the medical community to treat a variety of disease for the last 50 years or more,epilepsy, obesity, heart disease, etc People actually become healthier on the diet by a vast number of markers...LDL. HDL, liver, glucose, etc.
Its not carbs in general we are talking here it is specific types of carbs that cause issues as I have posted. The main point of the discussion is that yes there are many types of diets to use to lose weight...etc and the keto is one of them which is not unhealthy nor extreme....just another viable option.
P

[tiramisu]

If you want to look at some more balanced, athletic diets, Mauro di Pasquale has some good work with his anabolic diet. Robb Wolf and company with their zone distributed plus some extra fat , paleo sourced diet for athletes seems to be extremely effective and they really are focused on performance. I think either of these are pretty strongly based on athletic performance.

For the specific purpose of cutting weight while maintaining muscle I really can't imagine a diet significantly more effective than a ketogenic one. The purpose IS to get crazy ripped. It keeps the aminos high, avoids insulin spikes and keeps the calories down. It also preferentially burns body fat. The only justification I can think of for not using a ketogenic diet to cut is that it leaves you feeling like a bag of shit. In my case while it effects stamina it does not really effect max strength and my ability to complete my workouts. I imagine that in Ritch's case he has tried and feels like a bag of shit. There are many people in this camp and in that case adding x grams of carbs into the mix pre/post workout and in the morning may be the right thing to do.

Now I'm far less sure that a ketogenic diet makes sense for maintenance or growth. For maintenance I'm much more interested in either Pasquale or Wolf's approach. For growth I tend to use a see-food diet until I reach a point where I'm just throwing on fat and then I'm back to the keto (I'm still unclear on how to eat most effectively to grow but I'm working on it.)

Let's start with the premise that...

A 30 year old 200 pound bodybuilder
has a daily basic calorie requirement of 3400 calories
has an exercise demand of another 600 calories

4000 calorie maintenance diet

We can probably agree that protein intake should be about 300 grams
or 1200 calories.

Zone is 40/30/30 (carb/protein/fat) @ maintenance
1600/1200/1200 in calories

Palumbo's Cutting Template for a 200 pound man is take the calories almost entirely from carbs 2560
160/1200/1200 in calories

Ignoring the randomness of metabolism and water this should be good for a 3 pound reduction in weight per week while keeping aminos high and preferentially burning fat (ketosis).