who eats processed carbohydrates when dieting for a show anyways?
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who eats processed carbohydrates when dieting for a show anyways?
In greg's defence, he is not a genetic anomaly. It takes work to maintain a semi-lean physique, we all know it, and greg is no different. He trains harder than anyone I know. I find I train harder then anyone I know, and compared to greg, I am a recreational gym-gower.Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
The original poster wants to lose a few pounds, nothing crazy, and I don't think he needs to do a ketogenic diet. It's not only the discipline while dieting you need to worry about, its the post-diet. If he's anything like 95% of the population, after the diet carbs will become his best friend, and I think it would be easier to adjust to that when he's used to eating a few carbs while dieting.
Personally never done a keto diet in the true sense of the word, neither has Greg...But it's not like were consuming half our calories from carbs...an apple here and there, enough to fuel a heavy set of deadlifts or squats, and that's about it.
All reasonable diets work, and all reasonable diets work for everyone, as long as you're doing it right. some may work slightly better - but that's about it. Someone looking to get down from 12% to 8% can basically just cut our a few calories from whatever he eat and its going to work.
Its not like I have not reserached these diets for the past 15 years or something. Just read studies on the matter. Anytime a diet recoments u dont eat an entire food group do u really think its healthy. How can not eating brocolie or letuce spinach be a good idea. Waht kind of nonsence is it to tell someone to now eat some of the healthiest foods on the planet. It makes no sence whatsoever. This is what happens, people want to make money so they come up with a diff idea and try to market it. Hence the no carb diet. So think of it people does it make sence to eat no carbs all weak thne big out on french fries and burgers. And eating all kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol. Do people have no interest in living. Dieting to crazzy low %'s and dehydrating and all these things we do to get in contest shape is unhealthy enough without having a diet low in vitimans and which does not include fiber. causes constipation to name a few. A girl was over last night on this exact diet and she had to leave early befroe the party even started because of her stomach pains. its not worth it there are better ways that make more scientifit sense.
THERE ARE MANY....IF YOU DOUBT WHAT I POSTED ASK JOHN MEADOWS (Mountaindog on this board) FOR THAT MATTER, OR ASK NUTRITIONIST...THE INFORMATION IS READILY AVAILABLE....AND NO PLEASE DO NOT MISINTERPRET WHAT I POSTED....I NEVER SAID CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE ILLNESS OR DISEASE...I SAID WITH THE ADVENT OF PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE MAINLY HFCS THE INCIDENCE OF DISEASE HAS RISEN DRAMATICALLY...TO THINK OTHERWISE IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETEND IT DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE YOU CANT SEE IT.Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
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Caps are used only to differentiate my comments.
I am not sure what diet you are speaking about but its not the keto diet that is being discussed here. The information presented above illustrates that your understanding of this keto diet is quite limited as you say and I understand why it may seem like nonsense to you without the correct information.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregdoucette
Here is the misinformation:
1. you do NOT avoid all carbohydrates?...who came up with this?
2. fibre is used and is essential...where did no fibre use come from?
3. Low in vitamins? how?
4. All kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol...what diet are you refrring to?
This keto diet is attacked based on the lack of information or should i say misinformation as to how the body actually works and how it utilizes speficic nutrients during specific times and situations.
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PS some great reading and information...
-Fatwars by Brad King....
-Good carbs Bad carbs....Jay Robb
-Fats that heal Fats that kill....Udo Erasmus
Hmm not sure....rice, oatmeal, pasta, rice cakes, ...many diet using these items.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyO
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Thats why if you are going to compare the two diets at least be able to discuss them intelligently with the experience of running both correctly multiple times so you can discuss both limitations and advantages you have documented on yourself and others. As discussed there are many forms of diets available....keto is but one of them and it is no more extreme than any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
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P, what I don`t understand how you underline carbs as being bad in the sense of people becoming diabetic because of them. That`s an extreme example I find. It`s taking the worse case scenario of what they can do to your body and use it as an example to underline them being problematic.
But the person who`s smart and exercises is in a different situation. Their body uses the carbs and they won`t be plagued with all the negative stuff you talk about. I`m also willing to bet those "sides" won`t happen to anybody on this board as they train and don`t eat just carbs... They eat them with proteins and fats most the time. So what you say about the carbs is true in the case of them being bad if people eat just carbs, with no protein and don`t exercise.
But how does that relate to people on this board? It dosen`t make sense to me. You throw in that example of carbs causing disease and unhealthy bodies, but that will never happen to the context I`m refering to. You`re stating all the negatives about them, almost trying to scare people from them.
And the people you helped I`m sure their problems would have been solved by just eating healthier. So just because carbs made messed up their lives, dosen`t mean carbs will do the same to others. So I find it hard to believe that keto saved their lives and health problems, when something more simple and easy to follow would have helped them just the same and alllow them to enjoy more food groups.
So again, as Gregg said, why give up carbs when you don`t have to, because unless you want to get crazy ripped, and are an endomorph, I don`t see how this diet is necessary. And yes I understand the diet, so that is not an argument here.
Ritch as I posted above I never said carbs cause disease etc...the term carbs is being generalized on here when I have been completely specific. I posted the increase of processed carbohydrate correlates specifically to the increase in disease in the NA population...namely obesity, type 2 diabetes (in children which is scary..not seen till a few years ago) and cholesterol and heart issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
Not once did I ever say not to eat carbs....in fact I have said it many times that carbs are necessary on the keto diet for training purposes...his would be a moot discussion if everyone understood how the body works in relation to a specific fuel source while doing specific types of exercise....if that were the case no one would be arguing that a keto diet is unhealthy...thats called misinformation. The difference between this keto diet and a regular low carb diet is the mainly the amount of carbs and to a smaller degree fats....keto about 50g carbs per day...low carb depends on the individual...but as low as 100g per day on low days. People tend to speak in extremes when they talk keto but that is just not the case. The keto diet as I have posted before has been used quite successfully by the medical community to treat a variety of disease for the last 50 years or more,epilepsy, obesity, heart disease, etc People actually become healthier on the diet by a vast number of markers...LDL. HDL, liver, glucose, etc.
Its not carbs in general we are talking here it is specific types of carbs that cause issues as I have posted. The main point of the discussion is that yes there are many types of diets to use to lose weight...etc and the keto is one of them which is not unhealthy nor extreme....just another viable option.
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If you want to look at some more balanced, athletic diets, Mauro di Pasquale has some good work with his anabolic diet. Robb Wolf and company with their zone distributed plus some extra fat , paleo sourced diet for athletes seems to be extremely effective and they really are focused on performance. I think either of these are pretty strongly based on athletic performance.
For the specific purpose of cutting weight while maintaining muscle I really can't imagine a diet significantly more effective than a ketogenic one. The purpose IS to get crazy ripped. It keeps the aminos high, avoids insulin spikes and keeps the calories down. It also preferentially burns body fat. The only justification I can think of for not using a ketogenic diet to cut is that it leaves you feeling like a bag of shit. In my case while it effects stamina it does not really effect max strength and my ability to complete my workouts. I imagine that in Ritch's case he has tried and feels like a bag of shit. There are many people in this camp and in that case adding x grams of carbs into the mix pre/post workout and in the morning may be the right thing to do.
Now I'm far less sure that a ketogenic diet makes sense for maintenance or growth. For maintenance I'm much more interested in either Pasquale or Wolf's approach. For growth I tend to use a see-food diet until I reach a point where I'm just throwing on fat and then I'm back to the keto (I'm still unclear on how to eat most effectively to grow but I'm working on it.)
Let's start with the premise that...
A 30 year old 200 pound bodybuilder
has a daily basic calorie requirement of 3400 calories
has an exercise demand of another 600 calories
4000 calorie maintenance diet
We can probably agree that protein intake should be about 300 grams
or 1200 calories.
Zone is 40/30/30 (carb/protein/fat) @ maintenance
1600/1200/1200 in calories
Palumbo's Cutting Template for a 200 pound man is take the calories almost entirely from carbs 2560
160/1200/1200 in calories
Ignoring the randomness of metabolism and water this should be good for a 3 pound reduction in weight per week while keeping aminos high and preferentially burning fat (ketosis).
You are not looking at the BIG pictureQuote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Carbohydrate intake (processed or not) is not the cause for obesity/CV disease/etc
It is a result of inactivity+food abundance. Simply we move less and eat more becasue food is easily accessible
And actually studies show we only consume 50calories more today than 50 yeras ago. So clearly the problem is inactivity, which leads to obesity; and once you're obese you are pretty much metabolically ****ed
And the HFCS leading to disease is also kinda silly, it's more of a correlation rather than a causation, people that eat a ton of fast food (with HFCS) will inevitably be consuming a shitload of calories and inevitably be obese
Again this isn't due to processed carbohydrate. It's a result of lower activity levels (energy output) and increased calorie intake (energy input)Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Again you're thinking "small picture"Quote:
People tend to speak in extremes when they talk keto but that is just not the case. The keto diet as I have posted before has been used quite successfully by the medical community to treat a variety of disease for the last 50 years or more,epilepsy, obesity, heart disease, etc People actually become healthier on the diet by a vast number of markers...LDL. HDL, liver, glucose, etc.
The only medical benefit of a keto diet is for people with epilepsy. In which they don't follow a diet that is remotely close to what is recommended on the board here (they follow 90% fat 10% protein)
As for the general population being treated for disease with a keto diet, there isn't anything magical about a keto diet. If someone with poor health was put on a keto diet and improved their internal health (BP, lipids, etc) it was because they lost bodyweight/fat.
Eliminating a macronutrient group IS extreme.Quote:
Its not carbs in general we are talking here it is specific types of carbs that cause issues as I have posted. The main point of the discussion is that yes there are many types of diets to use to lose weight...etc and the keto is one of them which is not unhealthy nor extreme....just another viable option.
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I love discussing nutrition/dietetics/health sciences because it's the field I'll be entering within about 18 months :)
There are multiple related causes to obesity but don't kid yourself fructose is some nasty shit when taken in the volumes that many consume it. I'm not saying don't eat fruit but I know far too many drinking 2 litres or more of soda pop and juice per day.Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
If you were to look for a crash diet then sure, give keto a shot. But insulin spikes are 100% NOT a problem providing you're still in a calorie deficitQuote:
Originally Posted by tiramisu
good god, there is no metabolic benefit of ketosis over just a regular semi low-moderate carb diet, this is proven (I'm not digging up the studies, you can check lyle mcdonalds website for a research review)Quote:
A 30 year old 200 pound bodybuilder
has a daily basic calorie requirement of 3400 calories
has an exercise demand of another 600 calories
4000 calorie maintenance diet
We can probably agree that protein intake should be about 300 grams
or 1200 calories.
Zone is 40/30/30 (carb/protein/fat) @ maintenance
1600/1200/1200 in calories
Palumbo's Cutting Template for a 200 pound man is take the calories almost entirely from carbs 2560
160/1200/1200 in calories
Ignoring the randomness of metabolism and water this should be good for a 3 pound reduction in weight per week while keeping aminos high and preferentially burning fat (ketosis).
So your thought is; since insulin suppresses lipolysis, and carbs = insulin secretion....well ****, lets just get rid of ALL the carbs and well just loose fat quicker than any other way! Sorry doesn't work that way
And you're example is crazy too; a 1500calorie deficit? He better be loaded up on drugs if he wants to maintain muscle mass. Not too mention the metabolic slowdown that will occur from slashing calories that quickly. If a drug-free person were to do that they would stall within weeks and be metabolically ****ed within a couple months. It might not matter if you have the option of adding GH+t3+clen but for natural that is a terrible idea
NO, there are not. There is 1 cause:Quote:
Originally Posted by tiramisu
Energy imbalance (energy intake exceeding output)
It's really not a nutrition issue at all. It's a societel issue, inactivity is SOOO low through society and food is EVERYWHERE.
Interesting how you call a proven effective template crazy. This is Dave Palumbo's contest prep template and it absolutely works (proven by 100's of competitors).
So you're probably going to have to adjust your definition of crazy a bit :)
ok...crazy = giving a "one size fits all" template/diet to everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by tiramisu
also..with enough drugs pretty much almost anything will work.. (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone)
and palumbo knows his drugs
http://forums.fitness.ee/uploads/mon...1222277748.jpg
It's not one size fits all. It's one size for a 200 pound male bodybuilder then adjust.
However, it's pretty darn close to bang on for every 200 pound male bodybuilder. Oddly human physiology doesn't vary all that much.
...
A lot of people need to control their insulin levels ( spikes ) and a lot of these diets are perfect for that.
If your not insulin sensitive than it wouldn't really matter if you did one of these diets.
Personally , I've been on a clean keto for the past two weeks . I've tried one before and didn't like it , but this time I have cut out cheese and greasy bad fats ( i.e. : bacon ) and I only had two bad days . I am slowly going to add in some fruit ( berries mainly ) so you can call it a Paleo diet if you want. My main thing is to control my insulin spikes .
Recently , my asthma has been getting worst as my body weight increased ( with exercise only ) this has cleared up 100% as I went for a salt bag fast walk last night and had no problems. My bodyweight is only down about 5lbs , but I can say the inflamation has cleared up.
Yes, DP is an ugly bugger but the diet works. I've tried it and it's been effective, 100's to 1000's of others have as well and the success rate is extremely high.
In this case Denial is not a river in egypt. You really have to adjust your opinions to include facts or the debate just gets silly.
my thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Talo
Isn't it just lean meats+healthy fats+fruits/veggies? And avoiding starchy carbs?
Why is there any need to eliminate a food group completely? There isn't even conclusive research on what "the caveman" really ate.
It (along with the keto diet) will work for alot ofpeople because essentially it works as a "cutting calories for dummies" diet because it completely eliminates entire food groups, resulting in lower energy intake
a little more detail on paleo... no grains, legumes, or dairy (based on inflammation avoidance - assumption that everyone is allergic to some extent - i have doubts). Obviously nothing processed.
Paleo doesn't prescribe calories or distribution. This is why a lot of people are combining it with variations of the zone plus a couple of extra fat blocks.
Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?
I'm jsut quoting the diets I hear from people I know. They are not eating fiber they are not eating carbs they are not eating greens, they are not allowed vegetables. How are you goign to get the rememded minimum intake of fiber without vegetables. Metamucil is not goign to cut it. and how are you getting enough vitamins if ur not eating vegetables. What ever happend to being healthy. I mean bodybuilding is unhealthy enough without making it any worse by eating completely the opposite of what any dietician would recomend. Common sense people we need to use more of it sometimes. we should be dieting on a healthy balanced diet whihc of course is higher in protein but also higher in fiber and higher in vegetables and lower in carbs but not zero carbs. and of course you need to do cardio don't let people convince you that you don't need cardio. thats just the lazy ass unhealthy version of trying to take shortcuts.
Not me.Quote:
Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?
With high amounts of Fish oil to counter balance the overdose of 6's we get from our grain feed meats.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiramisu
Greg, when you put up strawmen to knock and talk out of your ass it's kind of disappointing. I'm sure you have a lot to offer based on your years of training for powerlifting. You might also recognize Praetorian is a national class bodybuilder and a fairly successful trainer. You are arguing that bodybuilding cutting diets aren't maintenance diets. Well duh! If you were going to cut your bodyfat down to around 4% and maintain adequate protein and efa's in a 16 weeks period and your bodyfat was around 10% with a starting bodyweight of around 220-250 pounds what magic formula would you use?Quote:
Originally Posted by gregdoucette
Hey again guys. If I can base my meals somewhat like this:
B-fast:
1 Cup Oatmeal
2-4 Eggs
1 Fruit
Lunch:
1-1 1/2 Chicken Breast or Salmon fillet
1-1 1/2 Cup Rice (Long/Wild Grain)
1 Vegetable
Dinner:
Same as lunch.
Extra: 1 Vegetable, 1 Fruit (If before 6pm) 1 Can of Tuna
Pre Workout:
1 Scoop Whey Protein
Post Workout:
1-2 Scoops Whey Protein
Water - Approx. 4L
?? How does that look ? Remember I'm on a calorie deficit ! This is really similar to what I eat every day, but with the added cardio and different lifting program I feel it can work to my advantage.
I would for this:
B-fast:
1 Cup Oatmeal
2-4 Eggs
1 Fruit
Throw out the 1 fruit and have 3 Omega-3 Eggs + 4 egg whites.
EDIT: More protein less carbs.
I'm not gonna worry about Omega-3 eggs or just natural white eggs, I'm not getting that specific and I seriously doubt that it'll do MUCH more for me.
so a quick recap...
5' 9" 190 pounds ~12-13% BF so say 15% :)
objective 8%.
Assuming you are about 30 and 1 hour per day of activity you need about 3000 calories per day to maintain your weight.
A healthy approach to weight loss is about a 500 per day deficit (1 pound per week) with total calories and/or cardio adjusted as weight loss drops. So your starting total should be somewhere around 2500.
MEAL 1
1 cup oatmeal 145 cal 2.4/25.4/6.1 fat/carb/protein grams
4 eggs - 286 19.9/1.5/25.2
1 banana - 105 .4/27/1.3
32.6 grams protein
536 calories
MEAL 2
8 OZ CHICKEN BREAST - 443 17.5/0/67
1 CUP br rice - 215 1.7/44.4/5
1 cup brocolli 103 5.1/13.2/4.4
761 calories
76.4 grams protein
MEAL 3
8 OZ Salmon - 315 9.8/0/52
1 CUP br rice - 215 1.7/44.4/5
1 cup salad greens 9 .1/1.8/.8
1 tbsp olive oil -119 13.5/0/0
658
57.8 grams protein
Meal 4
54 grams whey isolate ( big scoop and a half) - 202 1.3/2.7/47.3
202 calories
47.3 grams protein
Meal 5
54 grams whey isolate ( big scoop and a half) - 202 1.3/2.7/47.3
202 calories
47.3 grams protein
The total calories on your meal plan are 1943. Total calories are about what I would pick on a bodybuilding cut but you have stated you want a slow diet with high energy closer to 2500. Adding in another meal: A can of tuna and brocolli should get you there closer and you can add a bit of post or pre workout carbs. Drop the tuna/veg meal later in your diet as your calorie requirements decrease and you cardio isn't helping you lose the 1 pound per week
Protein - your diet plan has you at 210 (250 w the extra tuna) grams per day which should be fine. 1.5 grams per pound might be better and then again it might not. but then you'ld have have to lose the egg yolks and oil on your salad (yuck) and add in more protein.
Carbs - currently 115 grams per day (128 with the extra brocolli) - you should have no issues with energy.
Fat - 71 grams, if you eat the salmon and olive oil you should have a pretty decent mix of efa coverage.
Omega 3 eggs would be a minor improvement as already stated and your response is about right but remember you'll be eating 2 dozen eggs a week so it's not a bad idea to clean this up as best you can.
71.7 / 128 / 250
645.3/ 512 / 1000 = 2157
This assumes you around an hour of low intensity cardio a day.
Whomever you are speaking to is obviously misinformed and ignorant in when it comes to physiology and nutrition. If you spoke to somene who is quite informed and educated on the subject i assure you your opinion would change. All my clients on a keto diet eat veggies, have plenty of fibre, nutrients, essential fats, limited saturated fats, adequate healthy protein, etc....and to boot all they markers if captured on a blood test improve....all of them. No one is going to look like Palumbo just because they run a keto diet...or his keto diet for that matter....that is just silly. Each individual has unique genetics and their appearnce wil lbe in accordance to their genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregdoucette
A keto diet is not a shortcut but a more efficient way of using body fat as a fuel source....there is nothing unhealthy about it.
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IVE BEEN IN IT FOR 20 YEARS...ERR TOO LONG...AM I AGING MYSELF...;O)Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
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Completely incorrect..a generalization like that only serves to confirm the factsQuote:
Originally Posted by devo09
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PS. I am not going to get into it now but our food has changed dramatically in the last 40 years...and the incidence of disease has risen dramatically. I dont think it is necessary to go into the details of the huge increase in demand for food coops, organics, drug and antibiotic free meats etc if you cant see what food conglomerates are doing to your health i am somewhat shocked...to actually think this is all based on overconsumption and lack of activity is naive to say the least
If you want to talk extreme then how is providing the brain with a surplus of fuel better than teasing it with minimal glucose? The benefits of a keto diet are multiple....besideS the obvious. Basically it is the same as walking up a flight of stairs....keto you take two at a time to the top....low carb you take two steps up then one step back....you will still get to the top its just not as efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
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[QUOTE=devo09;345552]ok...crazy = giving a "one size fits all" template/diet to everyone
also..with enough drugs pretty much almost anything will work.. (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone) WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF...PRETTY SOON YOULL BE SAYING TAKE WHAT RONNIE TAKES AND YOULL LOOK LIKE RONNIE....OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVENT BEEN IN THIS SPORT FOR VERY LONG...AS YOU GAIN MORE EXPERIENCE YOU WILL REALIZE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESNT....DRUGS DO NOT MAKE UP FOR BAD GENETICS, A BAD DIET, LACK OF CARDIO, OR A TONNE OF WORK IN THE GYM
and palumbo knows his drugs
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How can you even debate the topic if you dont know what the diet even consists of? Who said to eliminate a complete food group...please explain?Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
You need research to tell you what cavemen ate? LOL
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This thread has someone transformed the Palumbo diet into a CKD or generic "keto" diet
Exactly....without understanding the topic the discussion becomes irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by ubcpower
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He's obviously against doing a good diet there is no point to try and sway his opinion.
if you think that you could get lean and big off of HFCS and saturated fat, give it a try, they most certainly are major contributors to obesity. More, so why do you people consistantly debate diets at their most extreme idea. NO CARB stop being ridiculous and read a keto diet plan from a credible source, Anabolic Diet, Ketogenic Diet from Lyle McDonald, Palumbo. Read the whole book then make a comment
wow you are ignorant and an idiot if you choose to base your knowledge of something on what what you "hear from people you know". Do some actual reading and come back with an informed opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregdoucette