that`s where I read the info I live by as well!
Printable View
that`s where I read the info I live by as well!
lol john berardi has some great tips and theories, i read that in the summer time last year. i still eat and train the way i've read by him
Misery of keto? You have no clue what you are talking about. Ask anyone whose run a proper keto style diet and they will tell you it was not misery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
When it gets difficult is in the last 4-6 weeks but every diet beco
es difficult in the last 4-6 weeks.
There really isn't any misery when on the keto diet, the first week maybe, just the first depletion of carbs, after that you feel great, my energy levels are just as they were the only difference is that i'm burning fat. I don't even crave my carb up meal now.
Hahah, here we go again. Like the diet is so difficult to follow?Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
Hey Ritch, guess you and I must have imagined things... or maybe our IQ level is just too low to eat chicken and almonds.
Anyway.. as much as I hate it, I'm gonna be doin the keto yet again. This time with the help of Test, Var, T3 and Clen.
Ritch, no but you I have zero doubts are flying low in the IQ department.Quote:
Originally Posted by kloan
If you want to get snide with comments I will as well and will do it in a manner so as not to confuse you as I know you often misconstrue a persons 'tone' on the Internet.
For the record no one ever said the diet was difficult to follow but perhaps the diet you were following was not one that was meant for your bodyweigjt, muscle mass, etc. The difference between a cookie cutting template you find online and one that's developed for you.
Ritch, no but you I have zero doubts are flying low in the IQ department.Quote:
Originally Posted by kloan
If you want to get snide with comments I will as well and will do it in a manner so as not to confuse you as I know you often misconstrue a persons 'tone' on the Internet.
For the record no one ever said the diet was difficult to follow but perhaps the diet you were following was not one that was meant for your bodyweigjt, muscle mass, etc. The difference between a cookie cutting template you find online and one that's developed for you.
You could be right. If I had professional guidance with the diet and had it tailored more for me, maybe I would might have had better results from it. It does seem though that a lot of people follow the 'cookie cutter' diet and get good results from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
I think Ritch actually achieved results with his run on the keto, but he and I both experienced similar effects as far as feeling like crap on the diet.
How or what did either of us do wrong that we would feel like crap instead of feel great on the diet, as you seem to imply is only achieved by people who "know what they're talking about"?
Btw, my snide tone is coming from the fact that you have now told two people in this thread they don't know what they're talking about. Who's the one being an ass?
I'm only an ass to ignorant comments. Warlock suggesting a keto diet leads to muscle loss more inherently than other types of diets was ignorant as he clearly has not read much about keto diets or the mechanisms of how they work in the body.Quote:
Originally Posted by kloan
And while I agree there will be some who may feel miserable on a keto diet the truth as far as I've researched is those are fee and far between and this also included my own personal experience.
I can't say what you may have done or not done while on the diet. Maybe your fats were too low? Maybe you were training too long? Maybe you weren't getting enough rest? Too many variables for me to say but the only real misery I experienced on my diet was frequent inability to take a shit lol
Dude, warlock only said that because InPursuitofPerfection is boxing and asked if the keto diet would cause muscle loss because of the high intensity training and lack of glycogen.Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
Far as feeling like crap on the diet, you're right, too many variables to know for sure. Which is why I'm considering trying it again to see if I can do it without feeling like crap. Perhaps with the added help from the other stuff, things might feel a bit better. That is if I can get my sleep schedule fixed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
I couldn't poop for 3 days when i started... was not a happy camper lol. That has gone away since, probably too much peanut butter intake...
As far as whats been working for me kloan i get about 250g protein, 100g fats, 50g trace carbs. Try that kind of ratio, its been working for me so far.
And not too much peanut butter.... I think that shit clogs you up. Just sayin lol
I was somewhere around 200g protein, 120g fat, 30-40g carbs.
I replaced peanut butter with almond butter.
What about fiber supplements? Any of you guys use fiber? That's the only thing that was an unknown for me, because fiber is carbs, and I was taking a fiber supplement every day. I wasn't sure if that could somehow interfere with ketosis.
The way I can describe how I felt is that it felt like I was stuck in the preliminary stage of entering ketosis. After a few days I felt great, I was in ketosis.. but after a couple weeks it felt like I wasn't quite in keto anymore and couldn't seem to get into it.
Perhaps the carb/cheat meal once a week threw things off as well. If I do the diet again, I'm not going to bother with the cheat meal, or if I do I'll have to get some advice how to do it better so that I only get the carbs I need without going overboard.
So far i havn't had the need for a fiber supplement. As far as having a feeling of being in ketosis i don't think its a thing that you can feel. And for training basically just hit everything as hard as you can within 30-60min so you don't tap into glycogen storage. You want your refeed meal once a week to spike your insulin levels, it'll actually help speed up your metabolism and fills glycogen levels in your muscles. DONT SKIP IT. Just make it your last meal of the day and make it a HUGE protein + carbs with minimal fat. Mostly carbs that is. 400g i believe is what Praetorian recommended.
This is my personal experience with ketosis.
Ketosis for me feels like a slight head buzz energetic but slightly tweaked feeling. I can tell when I'm in ketosis, it has a different feel than when eating carbs. But I am also very sensitive to carbs, it affects my emotions and energy level significantly.. usually negatively.
I am hypoglycemic, so when I eat I normally get tired... when my blood sugar drops I get a frantic energy. With keto when I need to eat I get tired, and after I eat I get energy. The complete opposite to when I eat carbs.
Also when I'm in keto, I seem to have a get up and go energy, can't sit still. The lethargy is gone. Not quite full of zesty spunk, but feels like I want to keep moving, keep busy. My head also feels clearer, can think quicker.
well if you say you lost that feeling maybe your body has become used to the feeling and the "stimulating" effect has worn off, but you are probably still in ketosis if your diet stays the same. If you begin losing energy add a bit more fat to each meal
yeah it's worth another shot
Surely Nate you believe there is more than one method to get built. Then why is it you seem to think keto is the only way to get cut? It dosen`t work for everybody. Deal with it, lol... Not all pro`s use it. Ronnie never used it, Rhul didn`t either. Plenty of ripped freaks who never used it as it made them look like shit. And don`t give me that "then they didn`t pay somebody thousands of dollars to tailor the diet for them crap." It`s a total joke today how everybody seems to need their own coach to get ripped. It`s beyond overrated...
But let me clarify again. I think the person who wants to compete is making a good choice doing keto. But let`s not forget the avarage forum member is not looking to get that cut ( cheeks sucked in look, ripped glutes...) therefore it is totally possible and way less suffering to do it the way I said.
this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
. Drugs change things
What exactly is the problem doing keto natural? I've been on it for almost 4 weeks now and have been seeing results past the initial 1 week dry up. I lost some size\strength but figured that was normal and would return quickly once the diet is discontinued.
What I'd like to know is does anyone else get the shitty headaches? They've mostly subsided but I still get that sensation like a headband is pulled too tightly. Not really painful but noticeable nonetheless.
Recovery is the main problem, which kinda makes me question the whole "this diet is awesome as it increases test levels with all the healthy fats" Well if my test levels are so high, why is my recovery so bad? Anyway, in the end like anything else, not every plan out there can work for everybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamex
No where have I ever said keto was the only way to get cut but I will agree with what Praetorian has said before and that, logically (that is me speaking) keto is the most efficient means of dieting. If you can do with keto what you can with low carbs but only faster than why go a low carb approach?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
As there are many ways to build it there are many ways to lose it and I've never said otherwise. I took exception to your statement that a keto diet was misery when that's been the exact opposite to those many who have run keto.
I've done all sorts of diet strategies out there to just lean out or get into contest shape and I felt way better on keto than I have any other type of diet. I held onto muscle and increased strength while keeping energy levels up and doing 2-2.5 hrs of cardio/day and was rarely hungry. The cardio was due to starting so out of shape to begin with :(
Digestion issues were really my only problem with the diet but I feel it had more to do with me than the diet.
A keto diet works great on someone who is natural. The reason for this is inherent to ketosis. Once in ketosis the body does not want to use glucose for fuel so there is no tendency to convert amino acids into glucose for fuel as in the standard low carb low fat diet. AAS are not necessary to use on the keto diet at all...and you will spare muscle much more effectively then a low carb diet. Not to mention you will feel better because of the insulin control and lack of hunger. For the natural BB or the person just lookign to lose some weight the keto diet is much more effective as it doesnt have the limitations of a low carb diet..ie drop in hormones, mood swings, extreme hunger, lethargy, lack of energy to train or do cardio etcQuote:
Originally Posted by jamex
P
Recovery is not going to happen effectively without calories and carbs...on any type of diet...whether it be low carb or keto...even with aas recovery is limited...hence the reason you dont build muscle effectively while dieting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
P
I think the key phrase here is that keto will get you leaner faster than a low carb diet. But still low carb works very fast for me and is why I preach it so much. And as said earlier, gets me plenty lean, keto is not even close to being necessary, so no way would I go without my oatmeal, frozen berrie and protein powder breakfast in any diet phase, lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
As far as feeling great on it, I have yet to talk to one person who says they feel good on it. Hunger is kept under control being the main benefit of the keto and that`s it. Guys feeling like shit and being totally unfunctional is what I always hear and see. It`s not uncommon to ask them a a question, just to have them look at you with a blank stare then say "what?". And guys who have higher ups following them, and on big amounts of gear.
But it`s my belief that if you wanna get that lean (competition), you will suffer and I just don`t buy into the " I keep my strength, size and mood all through my diet. I`m not calling you a liar Nate for saying that the diet does what yo say, I`m guessing you`re probably a guy who`s very driven to get through such a diet. If you had negative thoughts going through your mind, it`s doubtfull you could get through it.
I don';t have time to reply right now but I can assure you EVERYONE has negative thoughts during the contest prep period. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. We all have moments of self doubt which is why it's the journey and not the destination that matters the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
All those sides you mention hardly affect me low carb. Just to clarify, I rarely go under 240 grams of carbs a day. Higher on training days. What`s your definition of low carb?Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Limitations? What? The keto diet is the most limited diet I know of, lol! I guess we see things differently... I have yet to be able to convince one person to follow such a diet when I show it to them. Meat,fats and vege`s gets old fast! Effective no doubt, but in general only possible for someone who wants to compete. Average person will have nothing to do with this.
If the person doing low carb goes with low glycemic carbs and has plenty of fiber in the meal, insulin control is kept in check, therefore helping with the hunger issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Limitations= drop in testosterone, fluctuations of insulin, extreme hunger, mood swings, gluconoegenesis etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
I have many clients who follow the keto diet but have no wish to ever compete nor be a BB. Many are post natal women and some just looking to drop weight to get into shape for any number of reasons. The diet is as varied as you make it...it is the same as the low carb diet without starchy carbs and limited veggies...protein sources are the same...it doesnt have to be boring..only if you make it so. Showing them the diet is much different then explaining how it works and offering proof as in client before and after photos. A recent client recently dropped 40lbs and was able to overcome PCOS to become pregnant when Dr's said it wasnt possible...thanks to the keto diet.
P
Even with low glycemic carbs insulin is not as stable as when in ketosis. Fat is also lower which increases hunger because of less satiety...insoluble fibre will decrease transit time as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
P
Not so sure I agree with those limitations you list as they don`t affect me much, but glad you are able to help out others with the keto diet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
You can do blood work to measure test levels as you diet...youll be amazed...although you cant be on aas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
The keto diet has helped thousands of people and has been used by the medical community to control or eliminate specific conditions...namely epilepsy....it was used exclusively to almost eliminate epilepsy in children years ago prior to the drugs we now have available. Also it has been used to control or eliminat type 2 diabetes. Do a search on My big fat diet...its a documentary where an entire town goes on a keto diet.
Most people fail on the keto diet because they are not running it correctly...too many carbs, too much fat etc or they fail mentally because they panic in the first month.
P
lol
You guys are looking at fat burning as an ON/OFF switch, which it isn't
Even with insulin present, fat WILL be burned (if your in a deficit)
Why would you automatically completely drop all of your carbs?
Your metabolic rate will drop MUCH faster if you do this. Which might not be that big of a problem if your can introduce clen/T3/etc, but for a natural if your metabolic rate is in the shitter, and you still have fat to lose, you're ****ed
AND, when you deplete glycogen for so long, you lose the ability to synthesize glycogen, so when you introduce carbs back in the diet (unless you do it VERY slowly) your going to gain a LOT of fat. . I always see the guys that do keto diets get REALLY fat/bloated after a show lol
oh ya, and ketogenic diets offer no metabolic advantages over moderate/low carb diets
Johnston CS et. al. Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. (2006) 83: 1055-1061
Background:Low-carbohydrate diets may promote greater weight loss than does the conventional low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. Objective:We compared weight loss and biomarker change in adults adhering to a ketogenic low-carbohydrate (KLC) diet or a nonketogenic low-carbohydrate (NLC) diet. Design:Twenty adults [body mass index (in kg/m2): 34.4 ± 1.0] were randomly assigned to the KLC (60% of energy as fat, beginning with 5% of energy as carbohydrate) or NLC (30% of energy as fat; 40% of energy as carbohydrate) diet. During the 6-wk trial, participants were sedentary, and 24-h intakes were strictly controlled. Results:Mean (±SE) weight losses (6.3 ± 0.6 and 7.2 ± 0.8 kg in KLC and NLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.324) and fat losses (3.4 and 5.5 kg in KLC and NLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.111) did not differ significantly by group after 6 wk. Blood ß-hydroxybutyrate in the KLC dieters was 3.6 times that in the NLC dieters at week 2 (P = 0.018), and LDL cholesterol was directly correlated with blood ß-hydroxybutyrate (r = 0.297, P = 0.025). Overall, insulin sensitivity and resting energy expenditure increased and serum -glutamyltransferase concentrations decreased in both diet groups during the 6-wk trial (P < 0.05). However, inflammatory risk (arachidonic acid:eicosapentaenoic acid ratios in plasma phospholipids) and perceptions of vigor were more adversely affected by the KLC than by the NLC diet. Conclusions:KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.
its not the carbs that have introduced metabolic derangements into most of societyQuote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
its a lack of inactivity+food abundance leading to insulin resistance and obesity
look up a study on "thrifty genes"
Also, the idea that keto diets help with test levels in nonsense. If your deficient in dietary fat you may have lower test levels, but a high fat intake won't raise test levels anymore than a moderate fat diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
Caps are not yelling just to differentiate my comments.
P
It definitely is lack of activity and food abundance yes...in the form of processed carbohydrate. In the last 30 years or so with the introduction of HFCS into the American diet....it is proliferant in 90% of all foods...obesity and type 2 diabetes has skyrocketed. The incidence of type 2 diabetes in children (which was unheard of 30 years ago) is not due to inactivity or abundance of food...it is processed carbohydrate....corn specifically...which by the way is subsidized by the top food corporations in America...which is why it is cheaper to buy breakfast cereal then broccoli.Quote:
Originally Posted by devo09
The body thrives on protein, fat, nuts . legumes, fibrous carbs etc...its called the paleolithic diet...the human body has not been around long enough to evolve to process what the average person eats today.
P
That may be true, but they didn`t bodybuild back then, with bodybuilding things change and what was ideal then, may not be now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Gotta head out, but this conversation is interesting, props to devo with his posts.
May not be as stable, but it`s not a problem, I don`t know why you`re so set out to make it seem that way... Especially when the carbs are taken pre post and second post workout meal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
just curious about too much fat...is the only effect that you end up storing more fat then you're burning off? I'm still not clear on how much is too much fat to consume. You want just enough to get into\stay in ketosis, but no more than that minimum so that you're burning fat stores and not dietary fat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Im just making a comparison...one is more stable than the other...the issue becomes a problem when you take a vary carb sensitive person and put them on a standard low carb type diet...they do not respond well and many of the issues I posted above become very apparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
P
The body still metabolizes certain types of foods much more effectively and efficiently...so no they did not BB back then but working with the body instead of against it will provide better performance in sedentary life as well as sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritch
P