2012 IFBB Flex Pro Results

[steve_d]

I'll partly agree to that...but there is still a subjective measure to how much a flaw is a flaw. 1 guy could have perfect symmetry, perfect conditioning, and just not big enough...but you still have to put a subjective value to how "not big enough" he was. So perhaps the judge says "he's 20 pounds too small". Next guy is perfect size, perfect symmetry, and just a bit off in the conditioning. So is that 20 pounds of size equivalent to that 'slightly off' conditioning from the other guy.

Now just think, that is probably the easiest obstacle for a judge to overcome. Throw in: well, he's missing size on this part, but this other part is a little soft, but his symmetry is great otherwise, etc etc. So many variables, and it simply is impossible to even count it as # of flaws. Each flaw needs to be rated on their own subjective scale. At the end of the day, there is not really any judge that does any kind of mathematical subjective calculation in the brain...it all comes down to overall impression. A very difficult thing to do. I can't imagine being a judge at that level - I'd hate it actually! I've said in the past its easier to judge higher level shows...but I think when you get to the HIGHEST level shows, it then becomes more difficult again.

[Praetorian]

If we look at each criteria...symmetry(shape and balance), size(overall mass), conditioning(definition, muscular separation) and give them equal weighting then Eduardo wins hands down. However when you add subjectability which can weight one criteria higher this throws the judging off...does mass outweigh conditioning? does symmetry outweigh mass? As Nate said it comes down to the athlete with the least flaws.
P

[natenator]

Well you can't compare an IN shape guy to an OUT of shape guy and say the out of shape one was bigger.

The problem here is we had 3 people in the top 5 who had WAY better OVERALL package than the other two and those two are who got rewarded.

I'll partly agree to that...but there is still a subjective measure to how much a flaw is a flaw. 1 guy could have perfect symmetry, perfect conditioning, and just not big enough...but you still have to put a subjective value to how "not big enough" he was. So perhaps the judge says "he's 20 pounds too small". Next guy is perfect size, perfect symmetry, and just a bit off in the conditioning. So is that 20 pounds of size equivalent to that 'slightly off' conditioning from the other guy.

Now just think, that is probably the easiest obstacle for a judge to overcome. Throw in: well, he's missing size on this part, but this other part is a little soft, but his symmetry is great otherwise, etc etc. So many variables, and it simply is impossible to even count it as # of flaws. Each flaw needs to be rated on their own subjective scale. At the end of the day, there is not really any judge that does any kind of mathematical subjective calculation in the brain...it all comes down to overall impression. A very difficult thing to do. I can't imagine being a judge at that level - I'd hate it actually! I've said in the past its easier to judge higher level shows...but I think when you get to the HIGHEST level shows, it then becomes more difficult again.

[SuperQT]

Awesome placing for the Canuks

[razorsedge]

Conditioning has to be a big key no matter what level we speak about.

Last year AC...Branch...did he have best overall symmetry and flowing lines...really...next to Victor and Wolf or even Evan....he had unthinkable conditioning and mass....he was rewarded with the victory. His physique does not flow...in any direction. I don't think anyone has any question that Heath was better all round than Cutler at the O....conditioned and the whole package with lines, flow, size, symmetry...a clear winner.
Look at Nationals here last year...lots of bigger physiques were defeated by a conditioned physique...look at our new Cdn pros, male and female ...all were extreme conditioned but were not always the biggest or had the best lines on stage....all great winners.

The Flex went off the chart a bit in my opinion as they went away from the best conditioned and overall physique....you watch in 2 weeks if a guy rolls into the AC huge but conditioned like the winner of the Flex...not getting a top 5 for sure because the guys will be superior conditioned. This is the part that must be so frustrating for these athletes...precedents are set one year and then abandoned the next (or so it seems)....you think all the guys for the AC are saying this week...the hell with the last 5 lbs, I wanna be big with some water as thats what the judges rewarded 2 weeks ago. I doubt it....all other top 5 finishers at Flex were better conditioned than winner....who was best conditioned (5th)...who had best lines and flow and good conditioning (4th)..who had best combo (2nd)...

I know from your experience as judge Steve that your insight is prob the best but really...the winner on Sat was set up to peak in 2 weeks by the look of his conditioning level and was handed a gift here...

[Praetorian]

Conditioning has to be a big key no matter what level we speak about.

Last year AC...Branch...did he have best overall symmetry and flowing lines...really...next to Victor and Wolf or even Evan....he had unthinkable conditioning and mass....he was rewarded with the victory. His physique does not flow...in any direction. I don't think anyone has any question that Heath was better all round than Cutler at the O....conditioned and the whole package with lines, flow, size, symmetry...a clear winner.
Look at Nationals here last year...lots of bigger physiques were defeated by a conditioned physique...look at our new Cdn pros, male and female ...all were extreme conditioned but were not always the biggest or had the best lines on stage....all great winners.

The Flex went off the chart a bit in my opinion as they went away from the best conditioned and overall physique....you watch in 2 weeks if a guy rolls into the AC huge but conditioned like the winner of the Flex...not getting a top 5 for sure because the guys will be superior conditioned. This is the part that must be so frustrating for these athletes...precedents are set one year and then abandoned the next (or so it seems)....you think all the guys for the AC are saying this week...the hell with the last 5 lbs, I wanna be big with some water as thats what the judges rewarded 2 weeks ago. I doubt it....all other top 5 finishers at Flex were better conditioned than winner....who was best conditioned (5th)...who had best lines and flow and good conditioning (4th)..who had best combo (2nd)...

I know from your experience as judge Steve that your insight is prob the best but really...the winner on Sat was set up to peak in 2 weeks by the look of his conditioning level and was handed a gift here...

Completely agree!
P

[steve_d]

I know from your experience as judge Steve that your insight is prob the best but really...the winner on Sat was set up to peak in 2 weeks by the look of his conditioning level and was handed a gift here...

I am not saying I am right. I am just saying I agree with the placings is all...I have no doubt in my mind that Lionel was off compared to Eduardo. But my whole idea is that both of them at their best goes a little something like this:

Lionel at his best = 94
Eduardo at his best = 85

At this show, Eduardo was at his best, therfore 85.
Lionel wasn't, but even still, he was say 87.

87 beats 85.

That is my attempt at giving my own subjective opinion a number.

Am I right? Of course not. There is no right and wrong. That is why its subjective. you guys can all have different numbers to play around with. That's just the way I saw it. Not only that, I wasn't there. So maybe had I been there, I would flip my vote completely. I only saw pics, no vids. And especially no 1080p behind judges row videos.

[razorsedge]

^^^^^

That why we post buddy...to express our opinions and stimulate conversation and other opinions....and by the way, ur looking great in your own prep...been following along

[steve_d]

If we look at each criteria...symmetry(shape and balance), size(overall mass), conditioning(definition, muscular separation) and give them equal weighting then Eduardo wins hands down. However when you add subjectability which can weight one criteria higher this throws the judging off...does mass outweigh conditioning? does symmetry outweigh mass? As Nate said it comes down to the athlete with the least flaws.
P

You fail to consider that subjectivity isn't just the fact that 1 judge can weight one criteria higher than the other. Subjectivity is inherent in each of those criteria. Even if both myself and yourself equally weighted each criteria, I still think we come up with a different winner. IE - let's assume neither of us is biased towards favoring mass, conditioning, or symmetry. The subjectivity will also really influence our thoughts on who has the correct amount of mass, symmetry, or conditioning.

Because in my mind Eduardo's symmetry isn't all that good, whereas you might. That is where the subjectivity really shows up. So even if we equally weigh each criteria, we still won't agree on the winner.

Like I said, no one is right on this. Its a matter of opinion, and given equal weighting, I still feel Eduardo deserved his 5th place finish.

[freaky abs]

I agree with you Steve D. Well said.