Yes I believe a Pro Card should be given only to the overall winner. They should return to the pre-2002 rules where only one pro card was awarded to the overall winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
Printable View
Yes I believe a Pro Card should be given only to the overall winner. They should return to the pre-2002 rules where only one pro card was awarded to the overall winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
Steve marsh.that's all kinds of effd up..and BDH comments, that girl was screwed too!! That's just brutal.. I don't know all names..but the LHW video..I saw some people that looked bigger and in shape but got passed over just like hassan clearly did...that's BS..
And yes, nut huggin is annoying...hey, I wish I looked like most of them, but I don't believe in lying... ****.. My very close friend bluenose can attest (if he remembers) at his shows..I tell him the TRUTH.. At the provincials and the canadas.. No sense lying..I start off by sayin...."Now I'd give my left nutt to look like you...BUT......". Lol
No harm in also saying to people on this nite "class was weak..u got a gift as u weren't 100%" maybe they will focus harder for nxt year...don't say "u gunna be pro!! U looked sick" ect ect... We all have to take critiscm, improve and develop thick skin.. We all SHOULD No our own flaws and not be afraid to hear the truh from our friends...
Phats
jerome's quads look.... fishy lol
Oh, and I don't see a problem givin away a couple pro cards... They r given away like mad in the states it seems..... HW and super.. Or atleast the overall and whatever guy presents best pkg in the LHW or higher
Whoa! Left quad is messsed
the problem with the way we do things is we take a subjective sport and make it more subjective when giving out pro cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by phatkid77
At the USA's this year, Steve Kulco got his pro card and arguablly you could have given one to Juan Morel as well but with how they do things, he wasn't in line for it. I'd rather people know going in who is going to get their pro cards - overall winner or weight class winners. Either or but none of this further subjective bullshit cause a guy like Loutfi is left scratching his head this year with two people getting their cards while he didn't get his last year.
One of the first things I noticed when looking through the results. Funny how that can happen. Funnier, is that it is actually possible to happen without any judges being inconsistent. Difficult to explain, but if I have time, I will try to come up with a scenario...With that said, It is also highly likely that 1 or more of the judges were inconsistent with their scorings. If I had to put money on it, I would say there was inconsistency between classes, as it is very difficult to happen the other way around. Again - if I have time to illustate this example, it might shed some light. (and to be honest, this example may in fact be too extreme for it to be possible). Much easier to show an example where it is a switch of 1 placings, not 3-4.Quote:
Originally Posted by mb07
Lmao!! Agreed.. If I was Lou I'd be ****in offiside this year..... And the problem with class winners I guess.. (I was avoiding sayin it) is like this year, seemingly weak class..then the "harder of the soft guys" wins, and isn't really pro quality...
I say we have a do over.in 4wks!!
I'm goin with impossible to explain, its a **** up... 2 things are the same...the other competitors don't matter
Steve beat abdul in one class, THEN in another adul beats him??? Doesn't add up..if anything... Steves wins the one class, then gets beat in welterweight by better competitor... Then takes 2nd, still ahead of abdul.. THAT is plausible...
assume 7 judges. Cancel high and low..
Weight Division:
Competitor A places 1st, Competitor B places 2nd
Masters:
Competitor A places 4th, Competitor B places 1st
How is this possible without judging inconsistencies.
Masters:
Judge Rank_A Rank_B
1 2 1
2 1 2
3 1 2
4 3 2
5 3 2
6 2 1
7 3 4
Weight class:
Judge Rank_A Rank_B
1 2 1
2 1 5
3 1 5
4 2 1
5 3 2
6 2 1
7 1 6
If you cancel high low, above, A will get 11 points, B will get 9 points for the masters class. If you do the same thing in the weight class example, A will have 8 point, B will have 14. Complete consistency within the judges, but a different outcome. In fact the scores are similar to what happened in Steve's case. The big part responsible for this is judge 2,3, and 7, where you see competitor B had low scores even though consistent. But how did that happen? In this example, it implies in the weight class there were extra compititors who squeezed there way in between A and B, which resulted in B score driven down relative to A in those 3 judges.
So the end result is it is possible, even when judges are not out to lunch. Whether or not this happened, would require seeing the judges score cards.
I' studying organic chem right now and even this made my brain hurt more than the chem! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
Oh, and by the way...Something like this actually happened while I judged a show - without judge inconsistencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
This is exactly what I meant I thought it what pretty clear when I wrote it......
Comprehension of what people write on message boards is a big problem. Sometimes you have to take a step back and read before you fire off. Yes, the way we write something does impact other people. If what is being said is about them directly and specifically. Mine was about the photo coverage not about the information that was being relayed.
If you volunteer your time on your own you should be doing it because you want to do it. Not so you get a slap on the back and have people praise you to the gods!
lol...trust me, this used to make my brain hurt, and I am a senior biostatistician. But the proof is there. I will be honest, my example may not actually apply to this situation, because in order for it to be true, it means the 2nd place competitor and the 3rd place compeitor in the weight class would have to have a score BOTH in between 8 and 14...And the way I worked the numbers, it might actually not happen this way no matter how you filled in the rest of the competitors scores...But keep in mind, I did this fast to illustrate a point. And the above example would be enough to show how one can be 1&2 then switched to at least 3&1.Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
But even with that said. I doubt there was total consistency for Steve's case. But quite possible in Joanne's case.
How bout u get off the boards and get serious again.. I'm coming baby!! Secrets are out, magic is flying..lol
Well its too late to change anything. In 23 years of competing I've never complained about the judging. I understand the sport is subjective and in the end we take what is given us. The Masters Light and the Welterweight divisions were both high caliber classes. This was by all accounts a tough year and I do have empathy for the judges dealing with these classes and and the abundance of competitors with argueable very close but very different physiques. I could list 10 reasons why I feel I should have won both classes and I could also come up with a few reasons that I should have won nothing. It was that tough.
I will always be at a loss as to how I drop 3 places to the same competitors. My callouts in both classes were consistant with a top 3 finish so I just dont get it. I guess when I see the score cards I will have my answer. I just hope that answer is something legit and not a manipulation of scores in order to improve a certain persons placing to a podium finish at the expense of someone else from a different province. If that is the case then there is a deep problem with the juding of our sport at the national level.
Not making any accusations. Just confused and looking for an answer.
Steve
I hope for consitency sake you at least get something similar to my example above. At the very worst, I would hope a judge did not alternate placings within a judge by more than 1 spot.
I will also admit that as a judge I have done this once (changing my vote). However, it was a local level show, and in fact I truly stood by my decision to switch placings. Again, this was a local level show, and within 2 hours, the individual must have been told how to improve his stance in a number of poses, as there was a clear change in the way he looked on stage. forgetting to flex legs for example is a big mistake often seen by first time competitors. I don't judge on potential, I judge what I see. If they change what they flex from 1 round to the next, I am not going to keep my original votes just to make the judges look good....I am as fair to the athletes as possible.
BUT, at a national show, there likely is no excuse (such as above) to change the way you see things - at least not in a couple hours. Usually at this level the athletes will not make rookie mistakes that can change the way they look in an hour, ex posing - or drinking a gallon of water & chips.
I would definitely make it a point to get the score sheets.
Woof just spend 30minutes digesting all this .
Just compete no expectations eventually things will go your way
Btw steve I think Greg could have dieted and taken LHW he looked solid when we spoke at the show.
Tell him get on stage 2012
I think Greg would have won LHW this year, if not 2nd place. Martin Allard is always impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stunna
As for 2012, I think it's in the works... He's battling injury after injury, so if he looked solid now, wait till you see what he can look like with a year of consistent training. My ultimate goal would be to be standing next to greg in the overall next year - and you never, NS might take the overall 3 years in a row. But that means we both have to win our classes. Lots of work to be done from now until then!
Garry Bartlett recently posted this pic in facebook. I think it's the a perfect pic after the results of this show. Santana Anderson, last years Mr. Canada, Mike Johnson, this years Mr. Canada and Salim Satir, the trainer of both.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...51912089_n.jpg
Totally balanced and winning physique..congrats Mike...and all those wanting this guy to train them...line starts over there..lol. Great job by you guys..
I thought I'd heard Santana and Salim have had a professional parting of ways? Maybe I'm wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
This is precisely why I cant understand why he would even consider doing the provincials in 2012 when he clearly belongs on the National stage. Why sacrifice 3 months of qualify building time to do the provincials and then do the the Nationals just 4 months later??
sorry for being off topic
Yes...it is off topic, let's leave that issue at that. A never ending circular argument that won't be settled.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Good see you back here! Breath of fresh air...... Ahhhhhhhh.....lolQuote:
Originally Posted by BDH
Thanks buddy... I miss this stuff... following this show just might have given me the bug again... good to see you're still around too...Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenose
Oh man those carl, jordan threads were epic lolQuote:
Originally Posted by BDH
No kidding... as many flame wars as there have been here, those were legit hatred... it was awesome...Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator
Jordan is quite different i miss when he lived here in ottawa, made me laugh this whole weekend at the showQuote:
Originally Posted by BDH
Yes Steve it happened at the 2010 Mr Ottawa show that you judged. It happened between Chris Ayotte and Andre Paquette. In the Masters 40+ Chris Ayotte was 1st and Andre Paquette was 2nd. But in the Light-Middle weight class Andre Paquette was 2nd and Chris Ayotte was 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
Happened to my Wife too this year at nationals.Quote:
Originally Posted by mb07
well Steve, You know how when we watch the olympia, how comentators metion how competitors get better as the competition goes on, .... some harden up and fillout more as the posing continues, and others fade??? Get what I'm talking about? looks like you either faded, or he came on.
Cheers.
I have discussed this with Debbie Karpenko. She assures me there are no inconsistencies in the scorecards. I find it hard to accept that I drop 3 places off the podium but I have the utmost respect for Debbie and believe what she says to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner#22
Its a little difficult only because its 3 places. One place is easy to understand and accept. For the record my condition did not change. I can not comment on the others conditions as I was beside them onstage lol.
I am going to drop this subject now and be happy with the condition I achieved for the show, the people I met, the people I was reaquainted, the fact that my 10 yr old finally saw me compete (which was my main motivation for competing this time around) and with and the general good time I had.
Steve
To the Absolute touch team that was the OFFICIAL TANNER For the show, you really should be ****en ashamed of your selves.
1- you are unorganized and late(make people wait in hotel rooms for hours when they have booked appointments?) we got shit to do eat focus etc
2-Make people wait show day when they made appointments?
3-amateur type work on the paint(too fast not enough coats, paint running oil running)
4- the best part was since the show was running late as most shows do, at around 3pm still morning show they leave, actually said they have to go because its taking too long. haha this one is funny to me, but when we pay for a ****en service 125$ + tax i dont care if it goes to next week you stay around and you paint everyone and sheen everyone.
5-get this they never came back for the night show? that is straight up BS and robbery.
all in all its all good there was some good people back stage to help all HW/ SHW who were ****ed by this so called offiical tanner. and i hope no one ever goes to them again.
They should just hire real Jan Tana team who do the best damn job evern to the point jan tan her self would sit and wait for you to perfect your look.
that is all
yes, that was the example I am referring to, I don't remember which was which, but one of them stood out in my eyes different than the first time. If I recall, it may have been the posing of the hams vs, not. They both were that close in my mind, and in the second time around, there was 1 additional thing that put him over the edge. I got a lot of slack for that decision - as we were told not to change our placings. However, I felt it was not fair to knock him down in the 2nd round for a mistake he made in the first round, hence my changed vote. Like I said, I wanted to be fair to the athletes.Quote:
Originally Posted by freaky abs
Similar to what p22 said, people can change in minutes, let alone hours. Even if the judges do switch their placings, and even if it was because they were out to lunch, they will always be able to back the decision up in either that manner, or the consistency example I showed above. Sometimes it's best to let it go - but its always fun to see score sheets regardless. Once you see a few, you begin to realize placings don't always go your way in a subjective sport. It's not always about winning.
3 placings, but the difference between 3 placings in 1 class might not be as large as another class. Just look at Stunna's class, the heavyweights...To be honest, there was not that much difference between the top15 or more guys...If you recall, Stunna beat Renaldo just weeks before at NAs. Any of those guys with a little improvement could win. But as Debbie said, there was no inconsistencies - and as I've shown, it is entirely possible. The judges who liked you best, continued to do so. The judges that favored the other guys physique also squeezed in a few of the new guys physique as well - causing your placings to drop a little more in that round than the other. It's confusing, but it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by mb07