Subcutaneously administered steroids

[waderow]

There has been a lot of discussion about sub q steroids shots for years now, but nobody ever want to stray from the herd. Some big juicer says it doesn't work, and everyone takes it as gospel.
There is no question that it will work. Is it going to get absorbed into your body or not? Answer is it will, but MAYBE not as fast. This will not matter though provided you stick with it. Blood levels will build to a stable level after a couple weeks.

================================================== =

Subcutaneous Administration of Testosterone
These two articles shows that subc injections of AAS are quite viable alternative for IM injections.

Quote:
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS

M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada

Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however, its physiological effects are unclear.

We therefore investigated the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy.

Patients and methods: Between May and September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism. Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks. Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration is not officially approved by Health Canada. T levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels were measured however; the week 12 data are still being collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l (p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1 (27.46+12.91 nmol/l).

Patients tolerated this therapy with no adverse effects.

Conclusions: A once-week SC injection of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further evaluation.


Quote:
Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.

Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: alfutaisi@squ.edu.om.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.

METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study.

Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.

CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.
__________________

[waderow]

Today, in addition to my 1cc tesp prop, 1cc masteron, and 1 cc tren, I injected subcutaneously an additional 1/2 cc of Test Prop.

I want to test:

1. Is it going to irritate? welt? form oil pocket?
2. Will it work?


Now without blood work, it will be hard for me to test if it is working or not. All i can do is subjectively comment on if i can feel it or not. Perhaps a little boost in libido? I don't know but we will see.

Long story short, is I am 100% positive it will be entering my blood stream, so the real question is answering the points in #1

[canadianmuscle0803]

shooting oil subq just doesn't sound right to me.. maybe you can be the test subject and try this out and get back to us, k thanks.

[waderow]

The initial sub q injection was painless, and in fact.......a pleasure.

took me about a minute to draw, and about 30 seconds to inject.

nothing to comment on regarding pain or irritation or colour.



Injection was at beltline on belly

[waderow]

shooting oil subq just doesn't sound right to me.. maybe you can be the test subject and try this out and get back to us, k thanks.

it doesn't "seem" right. why is that? HRT doctors are prescribing sub q oil injections now.

And i do not think you read anything I wrote, as I am being your guinea pig

[Roid-Monkey]

Today, in addition to my 1cc tesp prop, 1cc masteron, and 1 cc tren, I injected subcutaneously an additional 1/2 cc of Test Prop.

I want to test:

1. Is it going to irritate? welt? form oil pocket?
2. Will it work?


Now without blood work, it will be hard for me to test if it is working or not. All i can do is subjectively comment on if i can feel it or not. Perhaps a little boost in libido? I don't know but we will see.

Long story short, is I am 100% positive it will be entering my blood stream, so the real question is answering the points in #1

way to step up the plate my man :) LOL personally i already get irritation + oil pockets from intramuscular hehe and all my missed shots def give me that when it goes sub q. *thread subscribed*

[waderow]

it is a general concensus not to exceed 1/2 cc per shot, and space shots a couple inches apart.

[tex]

i'm up for it. feeling like a pin cushion after 10 weeks of daily im injects.....

[Gettin'r'round]

Way to go with being the guinea pig! I'm more worried about abscesses but not taking stuff through international airports (no way into the US though).

[waderow]

i also want to say that I am injection TRUE sub Q. Meaning, I am pulling skin, and injecting below the skin/fat layer between fat and muscle.

Injecting into fat may differ

[Big D]

the thing that worries me is, when you have a bad IM shot and the oil get in between the skin and your muscle, that usually dosent feel good.

[waderow]

the thing that worries me is, when you have a bad IM shot and the oil get in between the skin and your muscle, that usually dosent feel good.

probably due to volume.

limit to 1/2 cc, then move a couple inches

[waderow]

after 12 hours, there is only the slightest feeling. not pain. just am aware I injected.

I will now do 1cc ED sub q, and cut down on my IM volume. I am nearly crippled from my 3cc EOD shots.

I will have to work out what I will be shooting, but I want test prop at 1050 per week, and masteron and tren status quo

[rufusrocks]

here's a thought your first inject should always be intramuscular. if you get an allergic reaction it's less, less nerves, less blood vessels. as for effectiveness not enough studies out there. (at least published). intramuscular always, safer,smarter, less dangerous. but it all depends on what you are injecting.

i like the way you think waderow, i'm not in your league but like your approach !!! i may be wrong........ wow i almost and i did screw up.

[waderow]

here's a thought your first inject should always be intramuscular. if you get an allergic reaction it's less, less nerves, less blood vessels. as for effectiveness not enough studies out there. (at least published). intramuscular always, safer,smarter, less dangerous. but it all depends on what you are injecting.

i like the way you think waderow, i'm not in your league but like your approach !!! i may be wrong........ wow i almost and i did screw up.

Dude , intra muscular is DANGEROUS compared to sub Q.

Sub Q is better in every way provided it actually gets absorbed, which it appears it does.


How could it not be effective? It is going into your body, getting absorbed, and entering the blood stream. Just may be a bit slower. But once blood levels stabilize, voila. As effective as IM

My goal is to use a protocol that utilizes both injection techniques, thus making for less volume on the painful IM jabs

[waderow]

24 hours later, the injection spot is like a very minor bruise. Like I was pinched maybe, but no discolor at all. No pain....just a feeling.
I rubbed it to see if i could feel inflammation or an oil pocket, and the oil appears to be well dispersed, and or absorbed.

[Big D]

so far so good, keep us posted

[L3]

waderow do you think this method would work with test susp / test-no-ester?

[waderow]

waderow do you think this method would work with test susp / test-no-ester?

maxiter at UKIRON doesn't think un-estered gear will affect anything.

-W- at UKIRON has injected winni suspension Sub-q with no problems, and thinks un-estered gear may irritate slightly, but we're talking nothing as bad as a IM shot

Of course all i can comment on is the test prop I shot, and it was a breeze, and sub q oil is now a part of my cycle to reduce IM jab volume

[shivsean]

Dude , intra muscular is DANGEROUS compared to sub Q.

Can you expand on this statement?

And I welcome your effort looking into the matter. But, why re-invent the wheel?

[waderow]

Can you expand on this statement?

And I welcome your effort looking into the matter. But, why re-invent the wheel?

its simple. If you get an infection, where would you sooner have it bro. 1 1/2 inches inside your muscle, or 1/2" below the surface of your skin?

A surface abcess could be treated at a medi-centre. A IM abcess would require some pretty hardcore shit. Surgery. Drainage tube or gauze pack. You can die from an IM infection bro.

simple if you ask me...

And why not re-invent. If something works, and it is easier, and safer. Why the hell not? LOL

Why is everyone so scared to even consider this as effective?

[waderow]

I guess my stance is that right now this appears to be a valid way to administer.

I will be doing it.

I made this post so you guys can form your own opinions.

If you want to try, cool.

If you want disregard this as non-sense. Fine. But I think you're missing out.


All things considered, this is ****ing interesting at a minimum.

[tarnow]

Good thread waderow. I've been interested in this method for a while now, but never been 100% confident in it. Keep us updated on your progress.

[canadianmuscle0803]

what gauge needle are you using?

[bottleneckblooz]

Good thread, I'm interested in hearing about your progress. I'm a bit confused though. If sub q inj. are absorbed more slowly, does this mean that you don't have to inject as often? For example could you shoot test prop e3d's instead of ed or eod?

[grifter]

wasn't there a lab a few years ago that produced some gear to be used sub-q?

Waderow, I would also be interested to know gauge size 25" slin pin?

[waderow]

what gauge needle are you using?

29ga 1/2" 1cc slin pin

[waderow]

Good thread, I'm interested in hearing about your progress. I'm a bit confused though. If sub q inj. are absorbed more slowly, does this mean that you don't have to inject as often? For example could you shoot test prop e3d's instead of ed or eod?

i would follow regular routine, but blood levels may not be at 100% as early.
Once they are, they will be very stable

[canadianmuscle0803]

29ga 1/2" 1cc slin pin

can i shoot 1cc per shot? for example 300mg of deca.. would i be able to get away with a 25ga needle?

[waderow]

1/2 cc per shot, then move an inch or two

maybe you can do 1cc, but I haven't tried that much yet, and everyone else seems to be saying limit it to 1/2 cc

[xxSCHiSMxx]

All things considered, this is ****ing interesting at a minimum.
Very interesting. I'll be following this thread.

[tarnow]

29ga 1/2" 1cc slin pin

Is your gear made with EO or regular oil? Seems like it would be a bitch trying to pin any gear other than water based through a 29g.

[waderow]

the gear is oil.
it is about a minute or two to draw, and the injection is a slow, but over before you know it.
some guys back load the slin pins with a regular pin

[waderow]

about 36 hours now, and there is slight irritation. nothing major. feels like a bruise. very minor compared to the IM pain I am getting from this gear. I would imagine that one would get used to this for of injection, and develop a tolerance to the irritation.

I am still convinced that this is a valuable addition.

[waderow]

today I did 1cc sub q of test prop 200 in two pokes, which brought my IM jab down to 2.5cc

I may have gone a little close together on the two sub q's but oh well, we will see.

Besides, I am curious about 1cc sub q, and if there is pain.

my jab from 2 days ago is just a little sore. about as sore as if I was pinched hard 2 days ago. The slight redness from last night went away, and I am g2g

[gustavo77]

today I did 1cc sub q of test prop 200 in two pokes, which brought my IM jab down to 2.5cc

I may have gone a little close together on the two sub q's but oh well, we will see.

Besides, I am curious about 1cc sub q, and if there is pain.

my jab from 2 days ago is just a little sore. about as sore as if I was pinched hard 2 days ago. The slight redness from last night went away, and I am g2g

Wow...good info bro.. I am still not sure if i want to try this. Was the test P painful for you at all IM?? Cause SA test p 200 is pretty painful for me IM. I wonder what the EO based susp. would be like subq. If i get the nerve up, i will try 0.5cc of the EO susp subQ before my workout on Monday.

[waderow]

the test p is so/so painful. the test p, tren a, masteron p 3cc eod blast was ****ing crippling.

the sub q isnt pain free, but pretty minor compared to the IM. Just like a bruise.

I am thinking next cycle to get high dosed gear, and maybe a little longer estered stuff, and go mostly sub q

perhaps test 400 @ 30 units ED
EQ 300 @ 30 units ED
tren e 200 @ 30 units ED

close to 1 cc ED, divided into two sub q shots. If i get low on spots (which i wont), i can always jab a couple deep IM ones.

[JonnyO]

Good topic and I know a few guys giving it a try right now. I've done it before, I wouldnt go over 1cc per shot though. It works.

Apparently SubQ may lower estrogen side effects and keep even blood levels from slower absorbtion. Probably not a good way to do a full cycle, but possibly for a bit of a boost or even for a bridge between cycles and avoid scar tissue buildup.

[waderow]

Good topic and I know a few guys giving it a try right now. I've done it before, I wouldnt go over 1cc per shot though. It works.

Apparently SubQ may lower estrogen side effects and keep even blood levels from slower absorbtion. Probably not a good way to do a full cycle, but possibly for a bit of a boost or even for a bridge between cycles and avoid scar tissue buildup.

why wouldn't you go full cycle Johnny?

[JonnyO]

i can see it being good for high dosed gear, 300mg/ml to save injection volume. but it can tend to cause slight local swelling and might get uncomfortable doing 6 multiple jabs subq per day to get the cycles dosage in. Plus the amount of pins youd go through.

[waderow]

good point. a combo is the answer i think.
my IM jab into quad is far less bothered today then usual, as 1/3 of the shot went sub q.
I am liking this.

BTW, for 1cc sub q i use the same pin and poke twice. just like I would with IGF and MGF


Also, the right side belly where I did the 1cc of test prop in two jabs about an inch apart is no more irritated then the 1/2 cc on the left side.

[waderow]

tomorrow, i will try 1cc in one poke...... I am a wee bit nervous.

[neobol]

I'm very interested this thread.

As an experiment I just poked .5 cc test prop 150 in EO. 29 gauge filled in about 30 seconds, and went in fast. No irritation yet, no redness. I'll be interested in the result since EO bothered me IM, and prop always seem to hurt. We'll see what happens for pain/swelling and absorption.

I don't know about you guys, but I can do a subQ shot way faster than an IM shot - something about jamming a 29g slin pin .5 inches into the stomach area vs a 25g 1" the glute. Very convenient.

[waderow]

i find irritation peaks at 36 hours, and then subsides.

1 cc is slightly more painful then 1/2cc, so i would recommend 1/2cc shots for the squeemish.

so much better then painful IM though

[Mr Ontario]

It's a pain in the ass :)

[faller]

One of the best threads going, thanks Waderow :a+


I'd give you some k but i have to spread it around some, lol....

[St]

I did this Sub Q shot a few times with a 23gauge 1cc of oil,and i never had any pain,plus the oil went in fast.Great thread btw hope a few more guys try a sub Q shot.

[waderow]

ran out of slin pins today, so i jabbed sub q with a 25ga 1", and put 1/2 cc in higher up on my belly. Went in 5/8-3/4" or so, but hit the sub q layer.

25 ga sucks compared to a slin pin.....

Off to the surgical supply store LOL

[neobol]

Apparently SubQ may lower estrogen side effects and keep even blood levels from slower absorbtion. Probably not a good way to do a full cycle, but possibly for a bit of a boost or even for a bridge between cycles and avoid scar tissue buildup.

Do we have any details on the 'lower estrogen side effects'? Would this be the case with lower absorbtion? I'd have to think about this one.. anyone care to share thoughts on this?

[Houstonbc]

is it just a slower absorption of the steroid? or does it even get as fully absorbed by the body as an I.M. shot?
im gonna try some prop subq today

[waderow]

Slower, not lower absorbtion

the studies from the original post discuss concentrations

[neobol]

Ack - I meant slower. Lower estrogen sides from slower absorption.. I was thinking about that today.. if an IM shot of cyp or enanthate is absorbed more quickly, and peaks in the first couple of days before leveling off, do we see more aromatization in the first few days? So would a slower, steady absorption be different? hmm..

And by the way - that EO Prop has now made a red patch on my stomach that's a little sore. It's about 31 hours later.

[waderow]

my 1cc shots a little sore. i will keep them to 1/2cc max.

i noticed that 36 hours, pain peaks, and then subsides

[tiramisu]

interesting.

[faller]

^^Very^^

[waderow]

1/2 cc has little pain. 1 cc is a little sore, but not bad.

Tomorrow I will try 2@ 1/4cc. I am thinking no ill-effects.

[Houstonbc]

i shot 1/2cc x 2 spots yesterday prop in eo and no pain so far a little bit red though

[neobol]

My prop in EO shot is a red, tight blotch, slightly warm. I've now experimented with a 1/4 cc shot of enanthate in oil subQ, so I'll be able to compare. I always seem to react IM to EO, so we'll see if the oil shot is better.

Also - I realized that the slin pins can take a bigger gauge for drawing no problem - no need to backload, just draw with 22g and swap on a 29g.

[waderow]

my slin pins are fixed units, as I do peptides in them and do not want to lose any hormone.

They are 29 ga x 1/2" and draw just fine. Takes about a minute for 1/2cc

[Anatomy]

used to do this a lot.

the fastest way to load is to preload a bunch... don't pull off the orange cap just pull the plunger on the slin pin and load it from the back. leave a small air bubble so that you can hold the rubber bit of the plunger over the hole and let the bubble rise up to the tip. When the bubble has risen to the top, push the plunger in to seat it and evacuate the air. much faster to load and the needle hasn't been dulled on a rubber stopper. There are some tips and nuances to doing it this way [eg run the gear down the side of the barrel so you don't get an air lock when loading and warm the syringe in your waist band for a few minutes to thin the oil before injecting] but you will get pretty good at it after a few times.

[waderow]

okay. a few observations


Avoid larger then 1/2 cc shots
Avoid high belly shots.
Avoid very low abdominal. Belt line is perfect.
Hip shots are great
Glute shots completely painless.
warm the oil
29ga x 1/2" slin pin is perfect needle

[Beachmuscle]

Awesome information... keep the updates rolling in. :)

[tarnow]

Any new updates?

[waderow]

nothing new.
I have come to the conclusion that it is very valid. When volumes are high, you can lower them and take a cc sub q in a couple jabs.
I am going to get a hold of some boldenone and make some 500mg/ml EQ, and next cycle will be:
test prop 200mg/ml EOD x 1ml IM
tren a 100mg/ml EOD x 1ml IM
EQ 500mg/ml Sub Q x 1/2ml E3D Sub Q

[neobol]

Hey Waderow, I'm curious. Why do the EQ subQ? EQ is the one thing I absolutely never have a problem injecting IM. I've done a 3ml glute shot many times and felt nothing the next day. Why not do the prop shots subQ, and 1.5 ml EQ once a week since EQ is a super long ester? Does the prop ever bother you IM?

[waderow]

because i can brew it to 500mg/ml I prefer to cut down on volume. I can blast 2 cc of SA prop, and minimal pain.
I suppose I could try the 500mg EQ IM first and then decide. I doubt it will matter for me, but I have no problems switching things up.

[Ritch]

True soldier you are attempting this man. Have you tried injecting anything sub q with eo?

[Houstonbc]

True soldier you are attempting this man. Have you tried injecting anything sub q with eo?

i tried prop in eo it was painless

[waderow]

True soldier you are attempting this man. Have you tried injecting anything sub q with eo?

yup the SA is EO

[Ritch]

yup the SA is EO

Interesting. I`ll keep an eye on this thread and if you still have a pulse in 2 months or so, I`ll give it a try!

[waderow]

lol i am fine. My volume is down to 1.5 cc eod now, so I am just jabbing IM. It was a godsend when i was 3.5cc eod. I will use this method forever

[Proteinkiller]

Interesting. I`ll keep an eye on this thread and if you still have a pulse in 2 months or so, I`ll give it a try!

why would he not have a pulse in 2 months ? is eo bad to do sub q or something? just wondering bro

[waderow]

no no no there is no difference from sub q to im. if anything sub q is safer for infection risk.. a surface infection would be a simple lancing, and anti biotics. I deep IM infection can kill you

[Proteinkiller]

yah figured that i just got confused for a second there haha

[Ritch]

why would he not have a pulse in 2 months ? is eo bad to do sub q or something? just wondering bro

I`m no scientist and for decades the way to do it has always been IM. So of course it`s just weird to hear someone do it this way when the other has always been done. Honestly, I`d rather do a sub q shot and have nothing against this method. The only time I ever shot myself I damn near passed out! I have no clue if it`s bad to shoot eo sub q either, the only way to find out is to do it. You first!

Anyway at one point I may have to get passed the fear of injecting because I`m seriously thinking of shooting my calves...

[neobol]

Earlier in this thread I shot some EO subQ, and it was okay. I did seem to get a bit more of a reaction than the oil, but not a lot. This is the first time I've tried subQ shots - I'm a week in, and I love the ease of the shots. I loaded a set of slin pins with oil, and now to do a shot takes seconds. I'm actually really liking it.

[waderow]

Yeah, it is nice to have the option. I am a believer LOL

[canadianmuscle0803]

I just did my first subq injection of 125mg suspension.. went in smooth and totally painless so far, ill let you know it feels tomorrow.

[L3]

I just did my first subq injection of 125mg suspension.. went in smooth and totally painless so far, ill let you know it feels tomorrow.

have you noticed any change in the time it takes for the susp to "hit" you? ie. does it take longer than 1.5 hrs?

[canadianmuscle0803]

have you noticed any change in the time it takes for the susp to "hit" you? ie. does it take longer than 1.5 hrs?

in all honesty i felt it pretty quickly!! not much difference then IM.

[L3]

in all honesty i felt it pretty quickly!! not much difference then IM.

sweeeeet, im gonna be running it this summer i was not looking forward to ed jabs IM

[waderow]

right on. good for you man

[canadianmuscle0803]

so its been about 12 hours since my shot and i feel nothing, just a little lump, something similar that i get from GH, but im sure its nothing, the oil just needs some time to spread out i suppose.. just did my second shot, im lovin this so far. I feel like a million bucks!!!

[canadianmuscle0803]

2cc/day in 2 shots every 12 hours, i will update you guys daily to let you know if my abs look like huge lumps after a while lol

[faller]

I read all the positive posts to doing this yet i'm still scared shitless to try. Being on HRT i can look forward to lots of pinning so this would be something i should try, but still.....

[Thorgrim]

This actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Don't know too much about Sub Q injecting but when my cat got a needle lodged in his throat and couldn't eat or drink the vet gave him a few shots of saline under the skin to keep him from getting overly dehydrated. He wasn't a very happy camper I think the shots made him pretty sore but she must have been giving him like 10cc at once ouch!

Only thing I would be worried is building up blobs of oil under the skin. None of you guys trying it have had a problem? Any of you tried it somewhere other then abs, hips, or ass?

[Lukin2grow]

Just wanted to make a couple of comments...My understanding is that the main reason for intramuscular injection is the sheer volume of liquid you are injecting. If you were just doing TRT it would be relatively negligible...but there's no way you can comfortably inject yourself subcutaneously with up to 3 ml's of liquid. You'd have a bubble 2 inches thick. lol.

The other thing is I don't recall seeing this mentioned before, but I haven't really searched either...doesn't anyone else use EMLA patches? If you're unfamiliar, it stands for Eutectic Mixture of Local Anaesthetics. (I think)...Close anyway..

It's non precription and you just ask for it at the pharmacy as they have it behind the counter with the prescription stuff. It's a little over $10 for two easy stick on patches about twice the size of a Loonie. Put on at least an hour before an injection in your glutes and you won't feel a thing. I even had 23 gauge needles go in without even knowing they were in. The funny thing is that it's only the tip of your skin that really feels the needle. I don't feel a damn thing in the lower parts, and I used to use the 25 gauge needles all the way that were as long as ****! Takes away all the stress and no jumping either. :)

[kloan]

Uh.. that could get pretty expensive man. $10 for two patches? Unless they're reusable, I don't see that as a viable solution.

[Lukin2grow]

It's only $10 a week if you're injecting twice. I don't think that's expensive. It's 2 beer. ;)

[kloan]

Ok, but even for just doin 250mg 2x week of test that's still an extra $120 for your cycle... seems like a waste of money to me.

I'm sure there are numbing agents in a tube or somethin that would be a lot cheaper.. though dunno how sterile that'd be. Maybe alcohol w/ numbing agent?

I just deal with the pain.. dull tips suck ass though, hate that shit.

[Lukin2grow]

If the needles don't bother you much then that's great. I prefer no pain at all, so it's an easy expense for me to justify. You could actually buy a 50 mg tube of it as well and put it on yourself with a dressing. The patches are pre-made and easy though. Still the tube would go a lot farther. You also only really need an area the size of a dime or a quarter realistically...it's a very small bit of skin you actually inject.

[waderow]

I dont think this sub q protocol could replace Im jabs, but when the IM volume get too high, and too frequent, it is nice to have the option. Limit your pokes to 1/2cc and all is good.

[Beachmuscle]

Well, I tried this the first time today with my TRT dose.. 1/2 ml of Delatestryl Sub Q in the abdominal area... went in fine, feels fine.. see how it feels tommorrow.

Think I'll keep this up for the next few months. Once a week and no IM shots... nice!

If I were "cycling" heavy, I'd do IM shots, but for HRT this is excellent so far IMHO.

[natenator]

hmmmm, I might try this for tren. I only shoot EOD right now but would prefer to hit ED for tren but last time I ran ED shots (6 months) it was a huge annoying pain.

[Beachmuscle]

Two days later, can't even really feel where I did the sub q shot.. feels a little tender, and I mean on a scale of one to ten, it's a one.

Perfect of HRT. No more IM for me if this works. Funny thing is on my box of Deletestryl it says to do SubQ... I thought they pharmacist was a dumb ****, maybe he's smarter than I thought and it wasn't a mistake.

[natenator]

why haven't sub q injects for gear become more popular if its so painless AND the potency is still just as good as IM?

[St]

Just did a tren A shot no pain at all.

[faller]

Perfect of HRT. No more IM for me if this works.

Damn i'm going to have to try this!!

[knockyouout]

I like it, i must try.

[MoooBaby]

Just wanted to make a couple of comments...My understanding is that the main reason for intramuscular injection is the sheer volume of liquid you are injecting. If you were just doing TRT it would be relatively negligible...but there's no way you can comfortably inject yourself subcutaneously with up to 3 ml's of liquid. You'd have a bubble 2 inches thick. lol.

The other thing is I don't recall seeing this mentioned before, but I haven't really searched either...doesn't anyone else use EMLA patches? If you're unfamiliar, it stands for Eutectic Mixture of Local Anaesthetics. (I think)...Close anyway..

It's non precription and you just ask for it at the pharmacy as they have it behind the counter with the prescription stuff. It's a little over $10 for two easy stick on patches about twice the size of a Loonie. Put on at least an hour before an injection in your glutes and you won't feel a thing. I even had 23 gauge needles go in without even knowing they were in. The funny thing is that it's only the tip of your skin that really feels the needle. I don't feel a damn thing in the lower parts, and I used to use the 25 gauge needles all the way that were as long as ****! Takes away all the stress and no jumping either. :)


Um. . .pretty sure the pain everyone is trying to avoid isn't the actual shot. . if you seriously use pain killers to do shots then. . wtf. It hurts as much as a mesquito bite. It's the HUGE golf ball size lump people doin 3cc shots are looking to avoid lol.

I recently tried going a little further to the anterior on a glute shot. . .not a good idea. Manged to put it into a small muscle in there somewhere and it hurts like abtich, this thread sounds good. If I could do 1cc Im shots and just have a lil sore lump. . So much better than feeling like someone cranked me with a bat after a day. . .

[waderow]

why haven't sub q injects for gear become more popular if its so painless AND the potency is still just as good as IM?

thats the point of this thread.... if you read back you will see more then a few guys make comments such as "this doesn't "seem" right" or "why re-invent the wheel".
It is silly.

I am all for this, and when IM volumes get too high, will be doing SUBQ to alleviate. Or... for that matter, if I am doing LOW volume, like 1-2 cc per week, I will prob opt for sub q. So much easier and faster, and far less risky

[waderow]

Um. . .pretty sure the pain everyone is trying to avoid isn't the actual shot. . if you seriously use pain killers to do shots then. . wtf. It hurts as much as a mesquito bite. It's the HUGE golf ball size lump people doin 3cc shots are looking to avoid lol.

I recently tried going a little further to the anterior on a glute shot. . .not a good idea. Manged to put it into a small muscle in there somewhere and it hurts like abtich, this thread sounds good. If I could do 1cc Im shots and just have a lil sore lump. . So much better than feeling like someone cranked me with a bat after a day. . .

any pain I am concerned about is post injection muscle pain. crashed gear. solvent pain. hormone pain. bad location pain. high volume pain.

The pinch of the needle just wakes me up a bit LOL Kinda like it

[Neavris]

Is it possible to inject subQ with a 25g 1"? If I go at 45 degree angle and only put half in is it good enough or? Is there any way to know if you're injecting subq or directly in the fat? or are both the same thing anyway? Thank you.

[Beachmuscle]

So far so good, sticking to my Deletestryl dose... 1/2ml....

Only one shot hurt... scale of 1-10... a 2.5... rest have been 1's... (This is post injection pain, not actual injection pain.)

Only lasted two days.

It's working... 5 shots so far.

I wouldn't use anything but a 29 gauge slin pin.. these are meant for sub q, sure it's slow, but works just fine.

[Beachmuscle]

thats the point of this thread.... if you read back you will see more then a few guys make comments such as "this doesn't "seem" right" or "why re-invent the wheel".
It is silly.

I am all for this, and when IM volumes get too high, will be doing SUBQ to alleviate. Or... for that matter, if I am doing LOW volume, like 1-2 cc per week, I will prob opt for sub q. So much easier and faster, and far less risky

Agreed. Most new ideas at first meet criticsim and resistance, and then finally when results prove they are effective the denial ends.

It is said through studies that only 13% of the population can think for themselves, the other 87% need to be led, to be told what to do.

Waderow is a 13%'er. Blazing his own trail.

Wait to go brother.

[waderow]

Is it possible to inject subQ with a 25g 1"? If I go at 45 degree angle and only put half in is it good enough or? Is there any way to know if you're injecting subq or directly in the fat? or are both the same thing anyway? Thank you.

i ran out of slin pins, and did one jab with a 25ga x 1". went in about 5/8" into higher abs off to side. it hurt a little bit more.... but worked

[faller]

i ran out of slin pins, and did one jab with a 25ga x 1". went in about 5/8" into higher abs off to side. it hurt a little bit more.... but worked

Good to know, i have a shitload of 25g 5/8" pin's... Ya i'm one the 87%ers :D

[Neavris]

hummm I'm still wondering, when you inject subQ, do you inject straight into the fat or between the fat layer and the skin? Do you go at a 45 degree angle alike what most people on insulin injection do or at a 90 degree angle? Do you keep the skin pinched all along or do you pinch first, then needle, then release the skin, pull the plunger and inject?

I'd like to try this but I want to be 100% sure how to do it :D

[Neavris]

Alright, got tired of asking questions, I tried it. I used .5 test E in the belly, did 90 degree needle in on the side of the abs, about 4/8, pulled and injected. It's hard to keep the needle at the right spot while breathing, but it doesn't hurt. Didn't massage after, as is told to insulin users.

Comments?

[St]

Just did 1cc Tren a sudQ shot in the Glute,very little pain and no tren cough.

[waderow]

Alright, got tired of asking questions, I tried it. I used .5 test E in the belly, did 90 degree needle in on the side of the abs, about 4/8, pulled and injected. It's hard to keep the needle at the right spot while breathing, but it doesn't hurt. Didn't massage after, as is told to insulin users.

Comments?

i just pull skin, jab into the pulled area and inject. Youre way more technical then me bro! LOL

Get the juice in, and i attempt to avoid a fat injection, but it would probably only SLOW absorbtion

good job man

[waderow]

Just did 1cc Tren a sudQ shot in the Glute,very little pain and no tren cough.

have you been keeping up with the sub q?

[St]

have you been keeping up with the sub q?


Ya its amazing 1 cc max per Glute no bleeding anymore like from IM shots and even near the end i didn't even have a tren cough from sub q..A funny thing there is a trainer at my gym that ask if you can do Sud Q shot in the abs since the box for Delestryl said IM,just maybe the Doctor that gave the RX for it is keeping up with times.Glad you started this Sub Q thread.

[silverb5]

Well this thread alone made me sign up to this forum.

I am going to try this with some prop my next cycle but like a few others just want to clarify to injection technique.

You pull up on some skin and then inject into the skin your are holding up ?
Or inject on angle underneath the portion of skin you are holding up ?

[natenator]

man I wish I could try this with my next cycle but will be hard trying to pin 1500mg of enan and 800mg deca a week sub-q!

[waderow]

get the gear beneath the fat layer of possible....into the sub q layer, which is the layer between the fat and the meat.

i pull skin, and jab at an angle in the void formed from the pull. i aspirate, and then inject

[waderow]

man I wish I could try this with my next cycle but will be hard trying to pin 1500mg of enan and 800mg deca a week sub-q!

I still did IM jabs, but cut my volume down. I was on short estered gear pinning 4cc EOD. Got old fast, plus the gear was ****ing PAINFUL shit.

I took the jab down to 2.5 cc bu having 1cc sub q EOD.

Helped out a lot

[natenator]

I still did IM jabs, but cut my volume down. I was on short estered gear pinning 4cc EOD. Got old fast, plus the gear was ****ing PAINFUL shit.

I took the jab down to 2.5 cc bu having 1cc sub q EOD.

Helped out a lot
Might try for my contest prep in July. Faster acting gear...

[silverb5]

Wow that was a quick reply thanks , so on an angle underneath the portion being help up. You say that you do aspirate I have read both that you should and should not , but I guess no harm in doing it ?

[waderow]

always aspirate and ignore anyone that says not to, let them risk it.... you do not EVER want a blast of oil into a vein. Ever

[gsxr750]

Aspirate. Also I add a bit of air to all my injections.. point the needle towards the ground, flick it so the bubble goes to the end towards the stopper.. a little air SUBQ no problem, this way no gear is lost in syringe

[Beachmuscle]

This is still working wonders for my HRT dosages.

[faller]

Aspirate. Also I add a bit of air to all my injections.. point the needle towards the ground, flick it so the bubble goes to the end towards the stopper.. a little air SUBQ no problem, this way no gear is lost in syringe

Brilliant!! Everyone probably already new this but i didn't, so simple and obvious. Thanks for this bro..

[Dozer1980]

Yea the wasted gear point is a good 1 never thought of that and somewere i read that it takes 10cc of air in a vein to kill you not sure how they tested that lol

[waderow]

the amount of gear wasted is hardly worth worrying about

[natenator]

the amount of gear wasted is hardly worth worrying about
werd

[Vomit]

Just wanted to share my experiences. I've been doing sub Q for 3 weeks. 200mg of test split between two shots (of .25ml each). I have doing HRT dosages (well if 200mg a week is hrt... I guess its a bit above). for three years. Sometimes I go up to 300mg or 400mg but most of the time its around 200-250mg. Anyway to make a long story short I am starting to feel test withdrawl (I know the symptoms very well). I have very little sex drive, Im depressed and I dont feel I cant handle life, all classic test withdrawl signs. I dont have blood tests to confirm that my test is lower then it should, only my own experiences. I dont want anyone to take this as evidence SQ doesnt work. Anecdotes arent evidence. Im just putting it out there.

[waderow]

some HRT doctors are prescribing sub-q... and realistically, how could it not work. it is going into your body, unless of course and you are suffering from a drop in levels, until the sub-q catches up as SLOWER, NOT LOWER absorbtion rate is likely

[Vomit]

Very true, and its something I considered... I am not someone who considers "10mg of dbol a day made me HUGE" to be evidence that 10mg of dbol will make me huge. I dont want anyone taking my experiences as evidence for or against an effect although I know everyone thinks like this.

I have been researching this and to date I can only find two studies (1 published in the saudi journal) and one that was done in Quebec but never published. Both showed positive results, although I don’t have access to the Saudi journal so I have no way of knowing how long it took for the SC test to reach stable levels. Also the Saudi study was very small. The Quebec trial was never published so again I don’t have access to the data. If you have complete articles studying this mode of use please post them as I want to read them. With the amount of evidence present any scientist would say it’s foolish to utilize this method of treatment. Since I like to experiment more then any thing I will continue to use this method until I am sure it does not work.

I also have a welt from my first injection that has not gone away. All the
other injections have gone fine. Again dont take this as evidence that every time you inject SC you will get a welt. I’m only sharing what has happened to me.

More anecdotal none evidence

Post from Anabolic Minds member Jansz
In June 19/07 I started my subq T & hcg using
BA- 31ga 5/16" long needle 3/10cc syringe
for either shot.

use 6" around navel for shots.
Newer had any problems, infections or anything.
Blood test shows TT as expected.
Estrodial as expected.
DHT as expected (on top of range)
I like the way it is.
Not going to change.
Overall rather skinny but I have a pound or two of fat around navel.
5'9" 165#
--------------------------

Post from Anabolic Minds Member Bungloid48 (in reference to the Quebec study)
My endo conducted the study quoted on top. Since then they have had all their patients on Sub-Q in quebec. It is the new standard. I've been doing it for a couple of months myself and other than a bit of itching a a tiny bump that lasts for a week or so, there are no problems. It is deeeeefinetly safer than IM by a long shot. It's also completetly painless.

[waderow]

If I was doing HRT, i would do sub q full time for sure.

Now I just like it for volume relief on heavy assed cycles LOL

Good post though Vomit. Interested to hear more from you on this

[gsxr750]

I did my first Sub-Q Test-E shot yesterday after reading this thread and it went well. No pain, no lump, no bleeding.. much more pleasant than my delt.

[Solo59]

Just wanted to share my experiences. I've been doing sub Q for 3 weeks. 200mg of test split between two shots (of .25ml each). I have doing HRT dosages (well if 200mg a week is hrt... I guess its a bit above). for three years. Sometimes I go up to 300mg or 400mg but most of the time its around 200-250mg. Anyway to make a long story short I am starting to feel test withdrawl (I know the symptoms very well). I have very little sex drive, Im depressed and I dont feel I cant handle life, all classic test withdrawl signs. I dont have blood tests to confirm that my test is lower then it should, only my own experiences. I dont want anyone to take this as evidence SQ doesnt work. Anecdotes arent evidence. Im just putting it out there.

Still, your experience is to be listened to. Just switching to sub-q because it seems to work and why not anyway is not reason enough to do so. Scientific evidence, experimental proof, BW after a few weeks is necessary to confirm that sub-q is "just as effective" as the proven IM method. Aside from the fact that IM takes more volume more safely than sub-q, there must be good reason it has been the only recommended method for injecting oil-based gear since, well, a long time ago.

Solo

[tex]

would it be wise to subq inject test suspension? or would i get major irritation from the large particles?? i am feeling like a voodoo doll.......

[L3]

would it be wise to subq inject test suspension? or would i get major irritation from the large particles?? i am feeling like a voodoo doll.......


seems suspension gold is g2g :D


I just did my first subq injection of 125mg suspension.. went in smooth and totally painless so far, ill let you know it feels tomorrow.

[waderow]

next cycle I am ordering suspension to do sub q for pre workout jabs

[tex]

sweet...i will try later today

[spiderman7]

Done the suspension SQ several times. No issues,some redness around the site but only the day after and then it was gone.

[gsxr750]

You felt the suspension SQ as quick as IM?

[spiderman7]

No. It appeared to come on slower then when I shot IM.

[tex]

i just shot .5mls of test susp in my stomach....and I ain't gonna lie, it did sting like a lil bastard......but only for like 10-15 minutes......

[Bowlcut]

Has any mention been givento cyclodextrin products?
Those are the only ones I would pin Sub-q.

[waderow]

Has any mention been givento cyclodextrin products?
Those are the only ones I would pin Sub-q.

dont even know what that stuff is.

[Vomit]

Clyclo dextrins are sugar molecules that are bonded together in such a way that they form a perfect sphere. If you put a steroid inside the sphere you then have the steroid hidden within a hydrophilic carrier. I suppose you think that only hydrophilic compounds can be shot sc, however there is no reason for this to be true.

BTW the test finally hit me after nearly a month of SC shots... I suppose the release rate of 100mg of test from a sc shot is very slow... Probably if I was shooting greater amounts of steroid I would have felt it sooner

[waderow]

Clyclo dextrins are sugar molecules that are bonded together in such a way that they form a perfect sphere. If you put a steroid inside the sphere you then have the steroid hidden within a hydrophilic carrier. I suppose you think that only hydrophilic compounds can be shot sc, however there is no reason for this to be true.

BTW the test finally hit me after nearly a month of SC shots... I suppose the release rate of 100mg of test from a sc shot is very slow... Probably if I was shooting greater amounts of steroid I would have felt it sooner

so now according to literature I would suspect you to have very stable blood levels of test

[Bowlcut]

Cyclos were an amazing product because they allowed a person to pin normally long acting steroids like boldenone ED and get effects quicker.

[tex]

.

[tex]

Im gonna say to go ahead and pass on the sub q water-based test susp......I have a nice lil lump under the skin and it still stings.....id advice against unless you are a glutton for pain.....perhaps oil would be better.....

[waderow]

Im gonna say to go ahead and pass on the sub q water-based test susp......I have a nice lil lump under the skin and it still stings.....id advice against unless you are a glutton for pain.....perhaps oil would be better.....

kudos for trying bro. oil is likely the way then....

i am ordering suspension for my next cycle, and will try a sub-q too, as I am kind of a glutton for pain...

[spiderman7]

My suspension was in EO. Sure I got a little lump and some pain but it went away with time.

[tex]

you never know til you try....I am switching to eo based test no ester in a week...i'll try it again and see whats up....

[force]

Has any mention been givento cyclodextrin products?
Those are the only ones I would pin Sub-q.

I remember tha lab who made those products, never did get to try them but was always curious. It just seemed a little to "high tech" for an UG lab at the time.

F.

[Bowlcut]

I remember tha lab who made those products, never did get to try them but was always curious. It just seemed a little to "high tech" for an UG lab at the time.

F.

I had a friend run cycotest with great success. Just really tedious having to microwave the gear every time, but I would say that lab made some of the best stuff around.

[RagingRandy]

I just popped my SubQ cherry. I have been injecting my new batch of Sust into my quads and have they have hurt like a biotch. It is injection day so I figured I would give it a shot. I injected .7 ml using a 25g 1" needle. There is absolutely no pain. Easy Easy.

[waderow]

I just popped my SubQ cherry. I have been injecting my new batch of Sust into my quads and have they have hurt like a biotch. It is injection day so I figured I would give it a shot. I injected .7 ml using a 25g 1" needle. There is absolutely no pain. Easy Easy.

try with slin pin next time.... might be better yet

you will likely be sore tomorrow, but just tomorrow a bit

[RagingRandy]

Over 12 hours out. Still no pain. I did notice a bit of soreness when I was in the shower and was touching the area. Other than that I do not feel it.

24 hours out. The pain is about a 2 out of 10. Still not an issue. I can feel it but it is not bothersome.

[faller]

I am really curious what sustaplex would be like SubQ, the stuff can get a bit painfull IM.

I'm glad to see that a 25g went well for you RagingRandy, i might just give it a try now.

[RagingRandy]

I am really curious what sustaplex would be like SubQ, the stuff can get a bit painfull IM.

I'm glad to see that a 25g went well for you RagingRandy, i might just give it a try now.

Sust is what I am using. Much better Subq than IM.

[faller]

Sust is what I am using. Much better Subq than IM.

No shit!! Now you got me all excited :yeah

[RagingRandy]

No shit!! Now you got me all excited :yeah

I hope than means something different than when Mr. O says it.:puff

[faller]

^^ LMAO!! WAY different!!

[waderow]

Over 12 hours out. Still no pain. I did notice a bit of soreness when I was in the shower and was touching the area. Other than that I do not feel it.

24 hours out. The pain is about a 2 out of 10. Still not an issue. I can feel it but it is not bothersome.

so how did you fare?

[RagingRandy]

^^^^ Much better than IM. There is a red spot about the size of a hardball. There is obviously some inflammation but there is far less pain than IM. I am wondering if it Prop in the Sust that I am having a reaction to. I have used the same brand Test E with no issues.

[waderow]

i did test prop 200mg/ml and only a bit sore at 12-18 hours. no redness unless i do over 1/2cc

limit the jab to 1/2cc per jab. try the ass area too of you can bend far enough around

[RagingRandy]

i did test prop 200mg/ml and only a bit sore at 12-18 hours. no redness unless i do over 1/2cc

limit the jab to 1/2cc per jab. try the ass area too of you can bend far enough around

I am doing about .7-.8 ml eod.

[gsxr750]

I had a huge lump that lasted about 2.5 weeks. I also broke out really bad with bacne.. first time and i've been on Test for 7 months with no problems..

I wonder if it was because my SUB-Q shots were really not absorbed properly and my levels dropped/fluctuated enough to cause the sides?

I'm going back to IM for a bit and see if the bacne goes away..

[waderow]

crazy. wonder why there was a lump for 2.5 weeks?

[gsxr750]

Don't know bro. I did I think 3-4 weeks of Sub-Q shots so 8 injections and only had the lump with the one..

I'll give it a bit and try it again, I definately preferred it over IM.

[CanadianEagle]

.

[waderow]

I might give It a try,

can I develop an abcess?

What is the best gear to use?

Can I use my insulin syringe?

Whats the limit?

its all in tis thread but if you dont want to read back ... no, no abcess unless you would get one anyways....and if you were to get one, where do you want it? under skin or 2inches deep in muscle????

any gear can be used

yes, i use insulin syringe... 29ga x 1/2"

limit to 1/2cc per jab, but ou can jab anywhere you want on your body.

[waderow]

bump for HeavyD

[Beachmuscle]

I got a lump too, still here after 3 weeks, but receeding.. have to say it wasn't HG gear though.. but I had no problems with lumps with the other UG I was using this way... went a little crazy one day.. 4 - 1/2 ml SQ shots.. lol.. one left a lump.

Back to IM for a while.. I notice acne flare up to with the sub q... maybe I didn't give it long enough.. IDK.

[silverb5]

Tried this with some prop yesterday very easy shot , no mark a day later.
Slighty sore to the touch but significantly less than an IM shot for me

[natenator]

tried this as well. Did 3 prop shots (different days) 2 weeks ago and still have a bit of a deposit :(

[waderow]

How much volume Nate?

[natenator]

.5 cc

[waderow]

weird. I was doing .5cc shots with great success, but once went too low on abdomen and had a bump for a few days.

[natenator]

maybe when I hit 10% range and switch to contest prep I'll give them another shot.

[waderow]

I was doing it around the 10% mark. Are you thinking you got it into belly fat?

[natenator]

must have :(

[Zyko]

Hey, guys this is my first post here, just to add.
I am a diabetic, I also have studied anatomy for 2.5 years

The lumps you are getting from the injects are because you didnt reach through the fat or fully through the skin layers, the bumps may itch"hurt" for 1-2 days, but can be at the spots for up to 1 week or longer if it manage to get infected inside the bump, varying if your body sweats or gets heated enough for the oil to be more liquid like to get out again, if you want it away fast, you can use a needle and poke the skin above it until you get into the core of the bump(you feel it like if you remember once you had a large spot/acne and it exploded its the same feeling) then take out the needle and take a grip under the bump(so that is held like when you are putting the injection in) and try squeeze it slowly out, not to fast or it might get more infected.

Now also to answer sub-q parts, waderow is completly correct about that the effect of the steroid injectet is just as potent as if IM, its just absorbed slower, now varying by its steroids construction (water/oil and molekylar build-up) but its full effect is in as with Insulin, but varies between all the types of steroids aka, 15 min - 2.5 hours.

Sub-Q is safer as waderow says also, and already stated why. Parts about infections and estrogen. because the amount of steroids active in your body is slowly added, and not fast added, "compare it like, IM = Steroids active extremly fast, aka estrogen build up is fast" to "Sub-Q slowly building up steroid levels and estrogen levels most estrogen sides is actually never going to occour there because of the slow buildup".

Also just to say I dont know about oils Sub-Q so extremly well, but from what I've gathered is that it will just get stored a little longer before getting soothed out.

Also dosages of which you inject to Sub-Q, you can have pretty large amounts in the Sub-Q of your body, dont forget, Thighs, and stomach are(at same hight as your naval and atleast 2 inches away from it is great spots, this places can store large ammount of fluids from injects). direct inject is possible, but its best to use a certain angle, what angle also varries a lot from how you fold your skin and how thight your holding it!

Just posting to help people who wishes to try this.
From what I've tried of it(actually began experimenting on this around the same time as waderow) but didnt find this forum untill today.

Long first post.

[L3]

Hey, guys this is my first post here, just to add.
Long first post.

Hey, welcome, glad to have you on the site!

Can you please tell me how to make sure i get through the fat? Would it help if i inj in an area with less BF (upper abdomen)... im using 1/2" needles

I've done it a few times in area around my belly button and i get the itchy sensation you describe

thanks!!

[spitfire]

Great read. Thanks.

[Zyko]

Hey, welcome, glad to have you on the site!

Can you please tell me how to make sure i get through the fat? Would it help if i inj in an area with less BF (upper abdomen)... im using 1/2" needles

I've done it a few times in area around my belly button and i get the itchy sensation you describe

thanks!!

I've never tried putting it into my upper abs, but more fat is easier to notice when your through I would think, I can try now when I inject my insulin? using insulin is much safer to test for me with diabetes, first of all, i can check if my body will absorb it from those locations, and how well, usually stomach absorb alot faster than if it got shot in the leg, because its a larger absorbtion area and its closer the vital organs.

Well to make sure you get it through the belly fat is to make notice
-no stinging
-after injection it might get itchy if you are not used to it, if there is a bump then its not through (although irritation bump and wrong inject bump differs The main difference being that the bump that is wrongly injected can be felt like a marble in the skin, while the irritation bump is soft and not as round formed, its like a nippletip so to say, little bump but with a flat backside), if you get a little "pain" umm a little sting like feeling you probable hit at small nerve in the skin layer nothing to worry about.

The most noticeble to have made a good injection is no bumps.

-Now I dont know if you are a girl or a guy, but it should not matter really, never ever take it too close to the bellybutton and thats even if its insulin, this will sting like mad and may be very well potencially dangerous.

another way to know you've come through the bellyfat and into the "pocket" where you are supposed to inject it, is that you dont have to use alot of force(of course this force applied is actually really easy to notice because you will feel the skin swelling)

Now when you've taken the injection, take in consideration on how large a dose you injected, the larger dose you will most probable feel a large "sack" in a large area, now this confirms that its under the fatlayer and is inside the pocket I refered to earlier. Also, about the distance from an older shot, these holes you "make"(the skin is made of billions of holes) its pretty rare to get a scar, may vary on how thick the needle, the thicker the needle is the more itching will occour. because you are ripping skin tissue with large needles, if you use insulin needle sizes, they usally only expands the holes, of course some gets ripped. but 1/2 inch apart of each injection site is a good thumb rule. 2-4 days(varies from persons, for me 3 days is good to go) inbetween before you can use the same spot again is also needed to consider.

[Zyko]

Ok, going to have a double post here, but its because I have now taken the insulin shot at my upper abs/ lower chest even*
for steroids Im not sure if its safe though its pretty close to your heart.
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9343/picture11q.jpg

The ring and the dot is exactly where I placed it, now dont mock my body because Im in a real sloppy position. ;)

I am red around the area because I usually pinch a little to hard sometimes, and on the upper I had to pinch harder.

Waiting to see if its working.
Also another addition to know if you've gotten through when you pump your juice in, you will often feel the liquid coming inside you, because it doesnt have exact body temprature, its also not extremly important when doing
Sub-Q's to have body temprature, room temprature is more than enough. of course not if the room is like 14C/57.2 fahrenheit and lower :p


EDIT: I can post a picture to where I inject my insulin and/or steroids, Also from the picture all can see that I use very low amounts of steroids, I am a diabetic also I am not bulking :p and I want to keep som fat and water retention.

I didnt notice what you said about your needle length before now, but I also use 1/2" They are usually the most common used needles for diabetic pens, so they should be enough for you, what are your bf %? I got a approx 12-14% varing on measure method and 1/2" needle is perfect for me.


Update: Ok, the insulin is being absorbed, no itchin occouring, I feel easily when I've injected anything in my body as I try to notice it, but no soreness what so ever, also no pain when taking the inject, felt the area getting filled with insulin, was a good chill feeling, so I expect it should work, but at very small dosages, I cant give you an exact dosage, insulin dosages and steroid dosages is not measured the same way

[Zyko]

Topic to be read!
https://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=a4c1f00b-d245-44f2-a90e-20b047f84a6a&chunkiid=33267

just to fix up, the fatlayer which creates the bump is the thin layer between the skin and the proper fat layer that is Sub-Q

you see the gray line? now thats the problem that you may have had if you got a bump and its staying.(aka you have not reached through)


gsxr750
I am just going to state this about the lump you had for 2.5 weeks, this I can experience with insulin as well, the cause is because the sub-q area was loaded to fast with too much(maybe first time you injected sub-q there?) the lump is like a bump you get if you hit your head hard into something, not exactly the same, but its basicly saying do not mess with that area until the lump is gone, also people, after injecting, DO not rub the area hard, this will make a lump because its like exploding your sub-q area and the body makes the lump saying its fixing like it does with bruises . ;)

By the way, can people post what steroids you have used Sub-Q? Just to confirm all that currently has been proved to work.
Boldenone and Growth hormone, Have been done here. :)

[td1111]

^^That website says: "A subcutaneous (SQ) injection is a shot where the needle goes into the fat layer between the skin and the muscle to deliver a certain amount of medicine."

Looks to me like you want to inject into the fat itself. Which makes sense, it seems unlikely that you'd be able to accurately get it underneath the fat.

I have been off cycle for 4 months. I just tried .25 of Test prop subQ, and we'll see if I feel it tomorrow :)

http://services.epnet.com/getimage.aspx?imageiid=7659

[Zyko]

Well I think you will be feeling fine :)

and about the injection into the fat layer, the underside between the skin and fat is where the bump is going to be, its just a misconception of the work "pocket" between muscle and fat :p

ok another info update, regarding insulin amount, I use 30 entities of long lasting insulin 1 entity = 1.6 mmol/l
meaning 48 mmol insulin on 1 spot is perfectly doable on the thigh atleast.
48 mmol = 864 mg/dl

From further reading some steroids are measured the same way as insulin
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=144200&highlight=mmol%2Fl+mg%2Fdl

x amount mmol (multiplied by) 18 = x amount mg/dL
x amount mg/dL (divided by) 18 = x amount mmol

seems it measures
IGF-1 LR3, HGH, and INSULIN

[dinosaur]

I tried winstrol suspension a few years back and had some serious issues with redness and pain.

I am trying .5ml sub q today 50mg/ml thus, 25mg.

Wish me luck.

[red rocket]

I was having really bad reactions to masterone and decidied to shelf it, but then I read this thread and decided to try it out, well I shot on saturday, and my stomach is messed. I have a half a tennis ball lump on the side of my belly, and I tried really hard not to inject into fat, I did a show 1 month ago so im not carrying to much anyway, shot correctly (or so I think) and have decidied to shelf the gear again. It was extremely painful for the first couple of days and I dont think I could live with that kinda pain all ovet my abdomin. From what I've read it should start decipated soon I hope, I'm almost tempted to stick I pin in and drain it but dont want to make things worse. Let me know what you think, or advise. P.S anyone want half a jug of masterone, lol.

[dinosaur]

Injected .5ml of winstrol in my stomach fat with a slin pin

injection went fine, started to feel some pain and a small bump after about 5-6 hours. the slight pain remains today, just a tad of redness, barely any. can't feel the pain unless i touch it. so all in all, not that bad, but i don't think i could do tihs everyday if it will result in small little pain spots all over my body.

[Zyko]

Well 11-16% bf is recommended for sub-Q imo, because I've noticed the less body fat the less chance of getting into the fat layer. And to fat you need a larger needle to get it the middle of the fatlayer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnRgK07C7-A
Great movie for abdominal sub-Q she is actually doing it correct, many other youtube things is done in improper ways.

Also the info about the movie is really important as well, but all users of injections should know this.

- clean the site and stopper (if using a vial) prior to needle insertion.

- Location, angle of entry.

- IMPORTANT: ALWAYS pull the stopper back to make sure you haven't hit a blood vessel. Whether injecting into fat on an angle or straight into a muscle there's always a chance you might hit a vein, and in most cases you do not want to mainline a medication, the consequences could be serious.

[td1111]

I tried 25mg of Test Prop subQ 4 days ago. I am off cycle, and thought I might have felt a little bit of the Test, but didn't really. It's hard to guess, but it seems like absorption might be much much slower this way.

[waderow]

I was having really bad reactions to masterone and decidied to shelf it, but then I read this thread and decided to try it out, well I shot on saturday, and my stomach is messed. I have a half a tennis ball lump on the side of my belly, and I tried really hard not to inject into fat, I did a show 1 month ago so im not carrying to much anyway, shot correctly (or so I think) and have decidied to shelf the gear again. It was extremely painful for the first couple of days and I dont think I could live with that kinda pain all ovet my abdomin. From what I've read it should start decipated soon I hope, I'm almost tempted to stick I pin in and drain it but dont want to make things worse. Let me know what you think, or advise. P.S anyone want half a jug of masterone, lol.

how much did you shoot?

Limit to 1/2 cc per jab, inject slow, and move to new location if wanting bigger jabs

[red rocket]

I did the 1/2cc recommended, the slin pins I picked up were only 1/2cc, personally i think I'm allergic to something in it, from all the research I've been able to do all new masterone is a synthetic version of the original, which I believe has been off the market for about 10 years now. It must have something to do with that cuz I've tried just about everything made over the years and never had any reactions like I have with this stuff, not just the sub-q shot, all im pokes were the same, just cleared up a lil quicker, usually 4 days, but I'm now at 8 days and the pain has lessened over the last day and a half, but the lump is still there.

[The Booger]

Well, add me to the list of people who joined just to respond to this topic!

Nice job keeping track of this. My rat has some Test Prop that hurts like a b*tch for days after an IM injection, so he was looking for something different. Going to try the subq on the next cycle to see how he likes it.

I'd assume that any place could be used for subq correct?

It'll be 1/2cc every day, so 50mg a day. He'd much rather have a little bit of pain every day versus a crap load every other.

[waderow]

if your belly sub q is too much pain, try in the ass and hip area sub q

[tex]

im thinkin about trying this again...with an oil based product his time....

[Houstonbc]

anyone try the s.a. suspension sub q? I just stumbled upon a bottle in my stash

[waderow]

^^ go for it bro. there is a couple posts where guys pinned suspension sub q.

[dinosaur]

I didn't like the pain from my abdominal injection, so I tried on some fat on my thighs, just to experiment with myself. Those didn't feel good... Perhaps I am just unable to run injectable winstrol, far too painful in any way.

[dinosaur]

The site on my thigh has grown in size (red circle) and in pain intensity. I can still get around, but it does not feel nice. This is a normal bad reaction, but the unusual part is some weird lumps have developed on the site, similar to an allergic reaction. Perhaps bumps rather than lumps.

[waderow]

that winny seems harsh. i would drink it

[dinosaur]

I'll just toss it. Trying to be nicer to my liver. Trying...

[dexter]

I am a paramedic and we do sub-q injections on car, I can tell you that our medical director allows us to administer up to 1cc of narcan sub-q in one injection, I don't know what the viscosity difference is, but people overdosing wake up in about 10 mins with this injection so I have no doubt as to if this will work.

[Drummer]

is there any reason to shoot sub-q over IM?

[waderow]

is there any reason to shoot sub-q over IM?

reduce volume
reduce pain
reduce infection risk

[MaFFiaMan]

Hi all Guys,

Sorry for my English, it's not my language ;)

anyway i am from Europe and i joined just for this thread, it's so interesting for me!

I started pinning subq with B12 or Carnitine supplement (VET) and i read you do it with roids also,
well i would do the same on next cycle.

Until now i successfully injected subq no more then 5ml (Vitamin supllement water based) in a single shot forcing a bit, actually.
3,5 -4ml would be better for me.

I am using a 30G / 0.5" inch but i tried also 27G (Mesotherapy - too big!) or even better 29G.

My goal is to use those little needles also for next AAS cycle for example Wnistrol (water based) or maybe an oil based like Test (0,5ml).

I will be here to follow this thread, please keep sharing your subq - AAS experiences :a+

[waderow]

Hi all Guys,

Sorry for my English, it's not my language ;)

anyway i am from Europe and i joined just for this thread, it's so interesting for me!

I started pinning subq with B12 or Carnitine supplement (VET) and i read you do it with roids also,
well i would do the same on next cycle.

Until now i successfully injected subq no more then 5ml (Vitamin supllement water based) in a single shot forcing a bit, actually.
3,5 -4ml would be better for me.

I am using a 30G / 0.5" inch but i tried also 27G (Mesotherapy - too big!) or even better 29G.

My goal is to use those little needles also for next AAS cycle for example Wnistrol (water based) or maybe an oil based like Test (0,5ml).

I will be here to follow this thread, please keep sharing your subq - AAS experiences :a+

welcome aboard. You will be in a world of hurt if you subcutaneously jab over 1ml though, so keep the big jabs to the vitamins lol

[MaFFiaMan]

thanks waderow,

for your wellcoming and for this Thread :tu

and yes, i will keep that dose ONLY for supplements, of course :)

I am just looking wich AAS to pick to test it SubQ.
:greet

[waderow]

thanks waderow,

for your wellcoming and for this Thread :tu

and yes, i will keep that dose ONLY for supplements, of course :)

I am just looking wich AAS to pick to test it SubQ.
:greet

whats your cycle?

I want to try test e 500 as sub q taking 1/4cc ed

[MaFFiaMan]

Actually i was think more or less the same...
i was think at testoviron250 - 0.5ml /week + 1mg Arimidex ED and 10mg Nolva ED

What do you think Wanderow about cutting with testoviron250 ???


But i am still not sure anyway...i was also thinking doing a Tren Ace only cycle @ 25mg ED + dostinex or parlodel i dunno, really...

[waderow]

1/2 ml of test e 250 is hardly worth it. Maybe for hrt... is that what we're talking here?
Otherwise.... 1/2 ml eod minimum in my opinion for an androgen cycle.

Cutting with test? sure, but it is not about the hormone as much as it is about the diet and cardio

tren only cycle will make your peepee useless, but you will surely get cut.

[MaFFiaMan]

i understand what you mean Wand but you know, i am very sensitive (correct?) to Test and to drugs in general..plus i need a very little dose of drugs and grow up easily.
Actually i am prone to estrogens and prolactine sides effect so test could not be my first choice but i could have some few vials of it and i could try out that shit...
:help

[waderow]

get some AI

[MaFFiaMan]

oh well and for Tren Ace only cycle (12.5mg ED - 4 weeks) i could add just a little Test once a week, not?

[MaFFiaMan]

an AI for sure, 1mg arimidex ED + 10mg Nolva ED right?

[waderow]

oh well and for Tren Ace only cycle (12.5mg ED - 4 weeks) i could add just a little Test once a week, not?

if you are taking AI, then add test... AI will do nothing for tren. You need dostinex for the tren, but that dose is not worth it either. probably will not notice much

[OrangePeel]

Bump. This is a great thread.

[dexter]

Actually i was think more or less the same...
i was think at testoviron250 - 0.5ml /week + 1mg Arimidex ED and 10mg Nolva ED

What do you think Wanderow about cutting with testoviron250 ???


But i am still not sure anyway...i was also thinking doing a Tren Ace only cycle @ 25mg ED + dostinex or parlodel i dunno, really...

For me it's always been test is best, I ran anadrol up to two weeks before my last show and never looked sharper, but I am a skinny bitch naturally.

[MaFFiaMan]

ok bud
but i am at the opposite...

[MaFFiaMan]

Wanderow,

maybe you and some others could help me to pick the right product for my needs.

i wanna do it subq, very low dosage, with no aromatizing products - i am prone to estrogens and prolactine sides.

What you (all) would use?

[DragonsToSlay]

Greetings ,
Best thread on SC injections I’ve been able to find. Joined site just to post here.

Going to my Endo next week to ask for SC T injection prescription. I would like to be able to print up one or more of these SC T studies in original study format to make them seem more legit, not just copy and pasted from here. Know the links to these?

The reason I ask is because the only way I got him to prescribe HcG was by printing the JCEM HcG study, I first brought him John Crisler protocols and he just called him a “cook” (Real old fashioned Endo- disrespects DO’s) At least he knows I’m proficient now with SC Injections.

I know he is open to Injections – every 2weeks at his office. Right now I’m on Androgel 10 grams daily. So to have my info strait, what would the comparable amount & type of injected T be?

I’m guessing 100mg (I hope 200mg=10g Androgel) at 200 mg/cc? Is it possible to get prescribed 200mg so I can save some up for cycle? I never heard of more than 10g Androgel prescibed…

Is testosterone cypionate the best option to get prescribed? Is it standard to come in 200 mg/cc? Wouldn’t 300 or 400 mg/cc be better for SC injections & easier?

Just an FYI + question: Sometimes for couple of months with some extra Androgel I go up to 2-3 daily applications of 20-30grams total on just shaved body parts and my absorption has yielded LEF.ORG blood tested T levels 2 different times in the 1900’s 241-827 ng/dl (Double high Normal) However my gains were not steroid worthy. On a cycle of say 500 T/ Hcg/Liqidex from Research Lab (Anti-Aromatas) what would you expect T levels to get up too? Anyone ever blood test their levels during a cycle?


Sorry for all the questions in one post. Thanks for any help.

[MaFFiaMan]

what is "ENDO" ??
do you mean TRT ??

[MaFFiaMan]

Does anybody know if a 29g or a slinpin could be used to inject Winstrol Desma ???
Thanks!

[BritishColumbian]

I cant believe I passed over this thread without opening it. Today I opened it and read it. I,m glad I did. Exellent Thread!

[MaFFiaMan]

nice 3d, indeed.

[fmrmarineinbiz]

Glad to see some other guys jumping on the bandwagon too. I'm in the US myself. Been on my current cycle (4th) for nearly 4 weeks now. Tren Ace, 50mg daily, and Test E at 400mg weekly. BOTH entirely Sub Q, and seeing very favorable results. This is my first run with Tren of any kind, and all I can say is WOW, I will definitely use it again, and again.

[dinosaur]

So since my winstrol sub q injection over a month ago, the scar tissue seems to almost have expanded. So I've got this lump of scar tissue to the right of my belly button, a result of 1 .5cc winny inject and I can't get rid of it. As my body fat keeps getting lower it's starting to show now... my only thought was to walk down the street to the chiropractic office and have them try and blast it with UV rays. thoughts?

[L3]

i cant draw warm EO with a 27g for the life of me... tried SUBQ with a 23g 1" and fack... cant keep the needle in the skin wasted .2...any ideas?? my hiney is quite sore from ED pokes

[waderow]

So since my winstrol sub q injection over a month ago, the scar tissue seems to almost have expanded. So I've got this lump of scar tissue to the right of my belly button, a result of 1 .5cc winny inject and I can't get rid of it. As my body fat keeps getting lower it's starting to show now... my only thought was to walk down the street to the chiropractic office and have them try and blast it with UV rays. thoughts?

this is ****ed up. i dont know.... anyone have any suggestions?

i think you have a cyst.

1cc too much

[waderow]

i cant draw warm EO with a 27g for the life of me... tried SUBQ with a 23g 1" and fack... cant keep the needle in the skin wasted .2...any ideas?? my hiney is quite sore from ED pokes

I did a sub q with a 25 ga. what do you mean you cant keep a 22 in the skin?

take your 27 ga slin pin, preload a 3cc syringe with a 18ga. Pull the plunger on a slin pin, and shoot in desired amount. swab the plunger before replacing and replace, warm, pin and shoot

[MaFFiaMan]

it's exactly what i think to do with my new cycle next week ;)

[MaFFiaMan]

Wanderow do you think TEST would pass through a 29G ora a 30G ??
and Stano ??

[dinosaur]

yeah i only did .5cc

It's not a cyst, there is no pain. It's just scar tissue. Sucks!

I've been massaging the hell out of it and it started to get red and hurt, so I stopped and it's been a couple days now and it the pain is completely gone and it seems to have gotten smaller, so maybe I'll just keep working at it.

[td1111]

Too bad Primo is always 100mg/ml. Otherwise I'd be doing it SubQ.

[waderow]

Too bad Primo is always 100mg/ml. Otherwise I'd be doing it SubQ.

hmmmm I might get some raw and make some heavy primo for sub q to try it out.


interesting

[mo_sco]

So what seems to be the verdict on Sub-Q injections? The preliminary reports sound good and Waderow seems convinced....anybody else have positive or negative feedback on this? MuscularDevelopment also discussed this a while back. I'm still out on it....but would like some reall world feedback. What do people think? THX

[MaFFiaMan]

just wait few days man, i am starting my cycle tomorrow ;)
i will do Primo, Testoviron100 and Stargate inject ALL subq.
I hope to do it right !!!

[mo_sco]

just wait few days man, i am starting my cycle tomorrow ;)
i will do Primo, Testoviron100 and Stargate inject ALL subq.
I hope to do it right !!!

I'm supposed to start mine tomorrow...mainly test cyp...I was planning intermuscular but if it can be done SUB-Q that would be awesome!

[MaFFiaMan]

yes, it seems you can do it with TEST too.
just use no more then 0.5cc every pin, then change area to pin again.
;)

[MaFFiaMan]

so i did it.. yesterday i started my cycle (all SubQ) front loading with 6ML of Primoplex by ******** into 6 different spots.
Actually i have some lumps with soreness but not red on those places where i pinned.

Tomorrow il will start pinning SubQ with Mastaplex100, 1ML EOD.
I will let you know how it goes :greet

[dinosaur]

I've been trying to massage down the lump from my injection. It's actually a habit now, kinda like playing with gyno. Not sure if I've worked it down or it's come down on it's own, but it feels like the scar tissue is 'breaking up'. It's disappearing, so I'm happier.

[MaFFiaMan]

i see i see Dino.
but i do not feel to do it, i prefere not to touch lumps

[MaFFiaMan]

Anyway,

this moring i pinned on high gluteous with a 30g as usual, 1ML Mastaplex and i felt just NOTHING !
Nothing soreness, nothing lump, nothing bruise, nothing else.
Is it possible?
I am just thinking i was not able to inject but the syringe was empty...

Primoplex i did yesterday, it still present 6 lumps on six inject spots and still have a little soreness from them.
and Mastaplex100, instead, was like water under my skin.
I hope it's NOT water, actually.
Source is trusted by years, anyway.
What do you think about it?
:puff

[dinosaur]

wish I had more knowledge on the topic... my experiences were not great obviously

can't understand why it works for some people and not for others

im probably just f'ing up lol

[MaFFiaMan]

hi all,

just to inform i had only problems with my ******** Primoplex subQ. (i had to go to E.R. for a HEAVY form of Allergy to something in the vial ) so i am running only ******** Mastaplex SUBQ. with any problems, at all!

Tomorrow i will start Testovis (propionate) subQ. + stargate tabs. a classic cut cycle for 6 - 8 weeks.

[Ritch]

When doing sub q, is it best to shoot in a place where the skin is thinner? I just did my first hcg shot and noticed the upper abb area has thicker skin and said to myelf this wouldn`t be a good spot because you have less chance of leaving the oil or hcg between the skin. To me the worst area seems to be to the immediate left or right for 4 or so inches as the area is pinched but you don`t get the same feel as when you go further each way. In a place where the skin is thin, like lower oblique area, leg, hip area seem better. Does this make sense?

[MaFFiaMan]

sorry mate but i do not think so..

i had problem MORE and MORE where the skin is thicker as you say, just with Primoplex, anyway.

Ijecting in the delts, for example, works 10.000 times better then other places.

Also with the same product send me to the ER last month!
:)

[L3]

... its sub q... man up

[MaFFiaMan]

... its sub q... man up

Pardon?
:)