When you SHOULDNT do AAS IMHO...

[Drummer]

A little thing i wrote, posting on CBB for the guys considering taking the leap. Some of the most common things overlooked by the new guy... basic rules to consider before cycling :

1) Your under 25 (ish). Your natty test is still likely high, and you probably still have room to grow. You may not have spent the time reaching your natural limit, which is the best time to consider a boost. Choice is yours tho! This varies from person to person, but is a pretty good general rule. If you're a teen, dont even think about it. Why would you? Your likely jacked on natty test right now! Use it! Whatever the age you start, you should have diet, rest, training (1-2 years) down pat or you wont get the most out of it.

2) You dont know what your doing with the actual steroids, hgh, slin, pct stuff etc. You have no real knowledge of each compound, proper dosing, side effects etc. This can lead to more problems than good. An intimate knowledge of anything you put in your body should be common sense! That goes for PCT too.

3) You havent trained for at least a couple years. Just ask the guys who start training, jump onto a cycle, get huge and tear a tendon in half. Steroids grow muscle. Not tendons or connective tissue. One of the most common reasons for injury is huge strong muscles overpower tendons - try this if you want to feel some hefty pain. I made this mistake. You dont want to tear a tendon or muscle cause you didnt take the time to develope your connective tissue or your nervous system. Yes, these other 2 guys are VERY important to muscle growth and avoiding injury.

4) You dont know how to eat. Lifting without fuel is very foolish, you cant build a house without bricks. The right foods, in the right proportions, at the right time. Understanding macro nutrients, calories, your BMR, how to gain, how to lose, micronutrients (vitamins, minerals) and supplements is pretty much at the top of the list in importance. Without this, quit now. Your wasting your time. I believe diet is as important as lifting, and rest.

5) You dont know how to lift. Proper training is essential for the fastest growth. Knowing your lifting is a necessity, and helps you get the fastest gains in the shortest time and stay injury free. How much would it suck if you were halfway through a cycle, ripping your shirts, and you blow your back with an improper squat? It sucks lots. Everyone responds differently to different routines, so experience over time gives you an idea of what works for you.

6) You dont know how to rest. The most common failure for us guys tryin to get huge is overtraining. Yes you can overtrain on AAS. I know i know... we want it NOW not later! A little knowledge in basic human biology is a must here - you grow OUTSIDE the gym, damage muscle INSIDE the gym. Proper rest periods and sleep patterns will aid your growth so much, as opposed to overtraining and stunting yourself... a very easy line to cross.

7) You lack discipline. In order to learn all this, you need to get it done and stick with it. That goes for all of it - diet, training, rest, cycling and everything in between. Why put your body through all this without getting the most out of it. Messing with your endocrine system can be some serious stuff, and there are consequenses. If you dont have the time to dig in and learn, you could waste your time and end up more out of shape then you started, or worse, you could get hurt.

8)8) You lack the mental stability and maturity to handle the sides. Physical and mental side effects vary from person to person, and usually increase as doses increase. Physical sides can range from water retention to more serious conditions like gyno or high blood pressure. Mental sides can be something like increased libido (not so bad) to increased temper, to moodiness, lethargy etc. If you cant overcome sides either mentally or physically, your in a better position to start.

9) When you get all the above information right, know it front and back and can put it into practice, you just might be ready.... BUT.... make sure you get good quality AAS, dont mess with garbage. This can be a challenge, especially lately, but put the time in! You dont want something fake for a ton of $$$, or worse, an abcess! Be very aware of your sources, make sure they are tried and true. Be very cautious, take your time, and get good gear and pct stuff!

10) You didnt take the time to read this list 2x


Keep in mind using is a personal choice. There are many people who do very well with good nutrition and training. The more i learn, the more i advocate non-usage. Especially for younger people. There are many medical risks many of us are unaware of. Educate yourself, never blindly take someones advice, and always be very aware of what your doing to your body. There are always consequences for taking the easy way ;)


~DB~

[NorthOf60]

Well said and really good info. Bump for sticky.

[Kilburn]

A little thing i wrote, posting on CBB for the guys considering taking the leap. Some of the most common things overlooked by the new guy... basic rules to consider before cycling :

1) Your under 25 (ish). Your natty test is still likely high, and you probably still have room to grow. You may not have spent the time reaching your natural limit, which is the best time to consider a boost. Choice is yours tho! This varies from person to person, but is a pretty good general rule. If you're a teen, dont even think about it. Why would you? Your likely jacked on natty test right now! Use it!

2) You dont know what your doing with the actual steroids, hgh, slin, pct stuff etc. You have no real knowledge of each compound, proper dosing, side effects etc. This can lead to more problems than good. An intimate knowledge of anything you put in your body should be common sense! That goes for PCT too.

3) You havent trained for at least a couple years. Just ask the guys who start training, jump onto a cycle, get huge and tear a tendon in half. Steroids grow muscle. Not tendons or connective tissue. One of the most common reasons for injury is huge strong muscles overpower tendons - try this if you want to feel some hefty pain. I made this mistake. You dont want to tear a tendon or muscle cause you didnt take the time to develope your connective tissue or your nervous system. Yes, these other 2 guys are VERY important to muscle growth and avoiding injury.

4) You dont know how to eat. Lifting without fuel is very foolish, you cant build a house without bricks. The right foods, in the right proportions, at the right time. Understanding macro nutrients, calories, your BMR, how to gain, how to lose, micronutrients (vitamins, minerals) and supplements is pretty much at the top of the list in importance. Without this, quit now. Your wasting your time. I believe diet is as important as lifting, and rest.

5) You dont know how to lift. Proper training is essential for the fastest growth. Knowing your lifting is a necessity, and helps you get the fastest gains in the shortest time and stay injury free. How much would it suck if you were halfway through a cycle, ripping your shirts, and you blow your back with an improper squat? It sucks lots. Everyone responds differently to different routines, so experience over time gives you an idea of what works for you.

6) You dont know how to rest. The most common failure for us guys tryin to get huge is overtraining. Yes you can overtrain on AAS. I know i know... we want it NOW not later! A little knowledge in basic human biology is a must here - you grow OUTSIDE the gym, damage muscle INSIDE the gym. Proper rest periods and sleep patterns will aid your growth so much, as opposed to overtraining and stunting yourself... a very easy line to cross.

7) You lack discipline. In order to learn all this, you need to get it done and stick with it. That goes for all of it - diet, training, rest, cycling and everything in between. Why put your body through all this without getting the most out of it. Messing with your endocrine system can be some serious stuff, and there are consequenses. If you dont have the time to dig in and learn, you could waste your time and end up more out of shape then you started, or worse, you could get hurt.

8) When you get all the above information right, know it front and back and can put it into practice, you just might be ready.... BUT.... make sure you get good quality AAS, dont mess with garbage. This can be a challenge, especially lately, but put the time in! You dont want something fake for a ton of $$$, or worse, an abcess! Be very aware of your sources, make sure they are tried and true. Be very cautious, take your time, and get good gear and pct stuff!

9) You didnt take the time to read this list 2x


~DB~


1. ya, i agree. id say 21 and over is fine.

2. agree, ive talked to so many dumb fuks who dont even know what EQ is and theyre completely retarded when it comes to dosing etc. if you cant do a little bit of fuking research then dont fuking do it u lazy sack of shit.

3. ya, i agree. also so you atleast have a general idea of what works for your body.

4. yup. i know a guy on juice who keeps telling me his shit is underdosed then i talk to him more in depth and he doesnt even take fuking protien powder. complete dumb fuk. he expects the juice to just work like magic.

5. yes, i agree, same thing with 4. u cant half assed it just cause youre on juice. dont blame your gear, blame your shity training and diet. ive used the same gear hes on too and got blood work when on it, i know it's good (*****)

6. disagree. most people should be working harder. there's so many fuking retards out there.

[Monka]

1) most that i've noticed lately that gear is under 25, hell, be like 5ft 9" and only 180lbs and think they reached limit, I know some people genes suck, but most really start way to soon. lol some start same day there work out.....

2) Not many people learn BEFORE, normaly they go from what a BUD says and learn that their Dbol and creatine cycle is all water. BUT i'd say most study more WHEN useing.
3)Is also rare! most (this is MY opinion) start within first year, lol under 190lbs, please,

4) I personaly don't think diet is key per say, PROTEIN is, you just want to eat, in the early days we ate like shit, but ate and ate,pizza/burgers/steaks/chicken/roast and grew 25-30lbs, and i'm short, (5ft6" but started natty with gear at 190lbs and first cycle got me to 210-215lbs, then in years to come hit 240 245 lbs in prime, biggest ever thats with igf/test and everything under the sun in there. loved it but everything was hard, hell even walking up stairs.

5)Training back then was mimic, just copy what the BIG DUDE was doing. and sorta work your ideas, and switch things, then internet comes by and get really good ideas, but i'd say most also have no clue at start how to train, but will still grow even if forms suck.
6)REST is key imo, another observation, i've notices the typical kids (i've seen)in their 20's seems to train and get pumped before they hit the bars, and pop their E tabs or their coke. Get wasted You'll notice the hard core dudes in the gym on a friday and Sat evening. Not saying it's bad to have a drink, but everyweek and then some?? Oh, and sleep is worst even, due to the drugs and parties

7)Some do end up hurting there self, it can happen, (not here thank god at gym) they are the ones that show BUT don't train just lean on shit and talk about how much they could lift but are a friggen stick at 180lbs, calling them self lean when it's just a skiny dude that dont train, and say they were 300lbs ripped...lol till there injury. So now can train hard.lol

8)Not many UG's are fake, i can honestly say for fact few always keep tad over but you'll ALWAYS get complains from someone on EVERY LAB this is normal , if something was REALLY bunk, you'd hear in 9 outa ten posts. , it's NORMAL, the guy that bitches and bitches and no one cares. since everyone else grew. Something was wrong, and most are quick to blame gear first. I've used gear SAME lots and after few months off never grew, do you blame gear, NO, your at a point where lbs are hard, unless your the kind to grow and losses everthing. ie: twitch..lol
Most of the labs around ARE good, just everyone reacts diffrent and soooo many things cause growth. Most would fear HG more so, but now long as you find a solid person, hopefully your fine, not no bid on e-bay. make sure to look online ask questions on HG and even then, fakes are better looking and most have test in it, so you at least grow a bit.UG's is a dieing breed soon, busts will be hear shortly, and to sell, you'd think twice
I find most are VERY disapointed with the second cycle as nothing like the very first.
9)Gear isnt all that. way more then the pin/Rest is big, push yourself, dont' socialize and just talk, (can do that after) you're there to work out. and not get in huttle and chat as you train. You'll notice the bigger type person is by himself. and a ipod in head.
Eat like a pig and THEN you can lean out after you put on muscle. but to eat clean (like a bird) and say you have lean real muscle. please in my eye, that's a wasted cycle. you can "cut" after you reach a great size.

[Drummer]

good feedback,

~DB~

[L3]

Eat like a pig and THEN you can lean out after you put on muscle. but to eat clean (like a bird) and say you have lean real muscle. please in my eye, that's a wasted cycle. you can "cut" after you reach a great size.

amen to that

[waderow]

but you should not be putting on pounds and pounds and pounds of fat. A little fat gain....sure. you need the excess calories to grow and be strong. But some guys balloon up and then have to cut 20-30 pounds afterwards. Sure, it feels good to be so big and strong, but the Cuit afterwards is long and hard. Gain weight, eat well, and then cut minimally afterwards IN my opinion....

[natenator]

but you should not be putting on pounds and pounds and pounds of fat. A little fat gain....sure. you need the excess calories to grow and be strong. But some guys balloon up and then have to cut 20-30 pounds afterwards. Sure, it feels good to be so big and strong, but the Cuit afterwards is long and hard. Gain weight, eat well, and then cut minimally afterwards IN my opinion....
I agree. As I get older this is definitely the mentality I am trying to employ. Metabolism slows and makes it much harder than when I was younger to drop the pounds.

I am currently trying to get down to the 8%10% range. Normally I only cut this low for a competition but think once I get there I may stick with it for good then when I do want to compete next it's an easy 6-8 week prep to be ready.

[Drummer]

but you should not be putting on pounds and pounds and pounds of fat. A little fat gain....sure. you need the excess calories to grow and be strong. But some guys balloon up and then have to cut 20-30 pounds afterwards. Sure, it feels good to be so big and strong, but the Cuit afterwards is long and hard. Gain weight, eat well, and then cut minimally afterwards IN my opinion....

Absolutly. 100% agree. Amen Haleluuya (spelling) praise the iron gods and all that.

~DB~

[deleteduser0001]

I disagree with all of the below. You don't know my goals, so where does one get off telling me what I need to know before hand? I know these are just general guidelines but not everyone is a bodybuilder.

Even if i knew NONE of the below, I'd still get results and you really can't argue that, I might not keep them and I might **** myself but, but my GOAL is results and now.

I am speaking generally but posts like these annoy the shit out of me.



A little thing i wrote, posting on CBB for the guys considering taking the leap. Some of the most common things overlooked by the new guy... basic rules to consider before cycling :

1) Your under 25 (ish). Your natty test is still likely high, and you probably still have room to grow. You may not have spent the time reaching your natural limit, which is the best time to consider a boost. Choice is yours tho! This varies from person to person, but is a pretty good general rule. If you're a teen, dont even think about it. Why would you? Your likely jacked on natty test right now! Use it!

2) You dont know what your doing with the actual steroids, hgh, slin, pct stuff etc. You have no real knowledge of each compound, proper dosing, side effects etc. This can lead to more problems than good. An intimate knowledge of anything you put in your body should be common sense! That goes for PCT too.

3) You havent trained for at least a couple years. Just ask the guys who start training, jump onto a cycle, get huge and tear a tendon in half. Steroids grow muscle. Not tendons or connective tissue. One of the most common reasons for injury is huge strong muscles overpower tendons - try this if you want to feel some hefty pain. I made this mistake. You dont want to tear a tendon or muscle cause you didnt take the time to develope your connective tissue or your nervous system. Yes, these other 2 guys are VERY important to muscle growth and avoiding injury.

4) You dont know how to eat. Lifting without fuel is very foolish, you cant build a house without bricks. The right foods, in the right proportions, at the right time. Understanding macro nutrients, calories, your BMR, how to gain, how to lose, micronutrients (vitamins, minerals) and supplements is pretty much at the top of the list in importance. Without this, quit now. Your wasting your time. I believe diet is as important as lifting, and rest.

5) You dont know how to lift. Proper training is essential for the fastest growth. Knowing your lifting is a necessity, and helps you get the fastest gains in the shortest time and stay injury free. How much would it suck if you were halfway through a cycle, ripping your shirts, and you blow your back with an improper squat? It sucks lots. Everyone responds differently to different routines, so experience over time gives you an idea of what works for you.

6) You dont know how to rest. The most common failure for us guys tryin to get huge is overtraining. Yes you can overtrain on AAS. I know i know... we want it NOW not later! A little knowledge in basic human biology is a must here - you grow OUTSIDE the gym, damage muscle INSIDE the gym. Proper rest periods and sleep patterns will aid your growth so much, as opposed to overtraining and stunting yourself... a very easy line to cross.

7) You lack discipline. In order to learn all this, you need to get it done and stick with it. That goes for all of it - diet, training, rest, cycling and everything in between. Why put your body through all this without getting the most out of it. Messing with your endocrine system can be some serious stuff, and there are consequenses. If you dont have the time to dig in and learn, you could waste your time and end up more out of shape then you started, or worse, you could get hurt.

8) When you get all the above information right, know it front and back and can put it into practice, you just might be ready.... BUT.... make sure you get good quality AAS, dont mess with garbage. This can be a challenge, especially lately, but put the time in! You dont want something fake for a ton of $$$, or worse, an abcess! Be very aware of your sources, make sure they are tried and true. Be very cautious, take your time, and get good gear and pct stuff!

9) You didnt take the time to read this list 2x


~DB~

[O-Train]

Just an FYI. Tendons, ligaments and connective tissue in general grow slowly. However hormones still influence their growth. It just happens much slower than muscle and so makes the body prone to injury. Also realistically if anyone ever approached their natural limit they would probably at least be in their late 30's.

My other thought is you really do have to eat big to get big. If you arn't getting at least a little fat than unless your diet is perfect (which it isn't) you're not maximizing your gains.

[proximo]

When I was 20 I did a cycle of sustanon250, 10 weeks, 1 shot every 3 days. I had only been training for 6 months or so. I grew like crazy and my strength went through the roof. Once I finished the cycle, crash!!!! I didn't do any PCT, and my strength just died, along with it my motivation to train. Of course I shrank, and didn't train for a year after that. Needless to say, my mind really played tricks on me. I was so tempted to start another cycle right away, but one of the vets in my gym suggested I just train natural for a while. This was some of the best advice I had been given. I did not start another cycle until I was 30.


Now I am not trying to say that I know everything or that this is the only way to go.....Just wanted to share my experiences.

[Drummer]

I disagree with all of the below. You don't know my goals, so where does one get off telling me what I need to know before hand? I know these are just general guidelines but not everyone is a bodybuilder.

Even if i knew NONE of the below, I'd still get results and you really can't argue that, I might not keep them and I might **** myself but, but my GOAL is results and now.

I am speaking generally but posts like these annoy the shit out of me.

your entitled to your opinion, even if it seems like nonsense to me. Its your body bro, have at it!

[Drummer]

double post

[Drummer]

Just an FYI. Tendons, ligaments and connective tissue in general grow slowly. However hormones still influence their growth. It just happens much slower than muscle and so makes the body prone to injury. Also realistically if anyone ever approached their natural limit they would probably at least be in their late 30's.

My other thought is you really do have to eat big to get big. If you arn't getting at least a little fat than unless your diet is perfect (which it isn't) you're not maximizing your gains.

Yea... thats why i mention taking the time to develope the other components... Hormones absolutely influence their growth. Not all in a posotive manner tho (think winny and connective tissue). Im curious however why a person doest get to their natural limit by 30?

~DB~

[O-Train]

Yea... thats why i mention taking the time to develope the other components... Hormones absolutely influence their growth. Not all in a posotive manner tho (think winny and connective tissue). Im curious however why a person doest get to their natural limit by 30?

~DB~

Well, judging where I'm at now (23) and where I want to get to. I figure it will take at least 10 solid years of gains to get there. When I'm talking natural potential/limit though I'm talking monstrosity. I think most guys have the genetic potential to achieve a physique that no one would believe is natural. It just might take 15-20 years of weight lifting to get there. I could be wrong but based on the bodies ability to constantly adapt it makes sense.

[xxSCHiSMxx]

I agree. As I get older this is definitely the mentality I am trying to employ. Metabolism slows and makes it much harder than when I was younger to drop the pounds..
Getting old(er) sucks. My diet gotta be very clean, even bulking, otherwise too much fat gain. Followed by long grueling cut.

[faller]

My diet gotta be very clean, even bulking, otherwise too much fat gain. Followed by long grueling cut.

Agree 100%!! I think the "eat till you're ready to puke" is used far too liberally. Age play's a huge part in this, if i were to eat like i did in my 20's i would be way too fat. Eating is very tricky because the results take so long to show and than adjustments take just as long.

I guess that's why they call this a life stye, it takes a life time to figure out what works for you..

[rufusrocks]

Getting old(er) sucks. My diet gotta be very clean, even bulking, otherwise too much fat gain. Followed by long grueling cut.

not really. getting older to me is great,i appreciate commitment, endurance and faithfulness. i'm in my 40's. i can't say anything without being philisophical about it. i'm not good at posting. just be careful and be your best.

[Drummer]

not really. getting older to me is great,i appreciate commitment, endurance and faithfulness. i'm in my 40's. i can't say anything without being philisophical about it. i'm not good at posting. just be careful and be your best.

with age comes wisdom

~DB~

[Sean Summers]

Here's 2 more IMHO:

- if you have any mental issues - such as anxiety, paranoia, fear of needles...etc
- if you can't keep your mouth shut

SS

[natenator]

Here's 2 more IMHO:

- if you have any mental issues - such as anxiety, paranoia, fear of needles...etc
- if you can't keep your mouth shut

SS
I actually have a fear of needles but can shoot myself no problem. I think my fear of needles lies in someone else giving them to me!

[waderow]

i cannot watch a needle administered on tv, or on anyone else, yet I can pin myself anywhere, any time. I can pin my cat. I could pin you....but on TV, I turn my head.

[Drummer]

Here's 2 more IMHO:

- if you have any mental issues - such as anxiety, paranoia, fear of needles...etc
- if you can't keep your mouth shut

SS


yea i didnt think of that... i should add the mental stability part.

~DB~

[Sean Summers]

Oh yes I forgot another one....

Be open to the fact that you may get sides. It amazes me how many posts I read about someone complaining that they got one of the various sides. You are not invincible and there is a chance that you may get a side NOT no chance at all. Plan for the worst case scenario and everything else is gravy.
SS

[Drummer]

EDITED and bump. Added a new #8 upon a suggestion (a good one at that)

~D~

[Bowlcut]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

[declan]

This is a good post by the OP. However, how could you gauge your genetic potential? I believe most of us can say that we turned to AAS before reaching our genetic plateau, unless someone here who had actually stalled chime in on this.

Happy lifting and growing.

[rickyboy36]

This is a good post by the OP. However, how could you gauge your genetic potential? I believe most of us can say that we turned to AAS before reaching our genetic plateau, unless someone here who had actually stalled chime in on this.

Happy lifting and growing.

The way i see it..why wait?In 3 years or so your gonna gain alot naturally..no doubt about it.But as many of you know,after 3 years gains go wayyyyyyyy down to like what..+-3 lbs a year or so on average for the next 3 years?Im certainley not going to wait cause i still have a few pounds of muscle in the bank becasue someone told me.What would honestly be the reason???None,none,none whatsoever.Like i said before,as long as you know what the heck you are doing and have expeireince with rest,food,weightlifting and aa's,you'll be fine.

This is a very good thread and very imformative to the young ones.Good read drummer

[SmallieBigs]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training


sorry bowlcut, but not sure alot of people on here who have used a long time could do some of those lifts... if i could bench 2x my body weight, well... i'd probably be bigger/heavier and then have that to deal with as well... lol

I do get your point though, i'm just not too sure it's so easy to set a bar that high... I could see saying 2x deads & squats (roughly) and maybe 1.5x bench... even that is big numbers... doable for a lot... but some people's genetics do make it alot tougher....

and, again... as much as we all like to endorse not getting into gear until the "right" time, i believe a very high percentage of the people here got into "too early" according to our own standards... we may have learned from our own mistakes, but we have to realize most people find things out this way... hopefully we can lead them in the right direction, but if not it gets discouraging when i see threads where people don't want to help a kid who unfortanatly is gonna do it anyway, and he probably ends up not doing it safely

sorry.... guess i felt like ranting... might be due to the newborn... yea.... i'll blame my 3 week old daughter... lol

[SmallieBigs]

The way i see it..why wait?In 3 years or so your gonna gain alot naturally..no doubt about it.But as many of you know,after 3 years gains go wayyyyyyyy down to like what..+-3 lbs a year or so on average for the next 3 years?Im certainley not going to wait cause i still have a few pounds of muscle in the bank becasue someone told me.What would honestly be the reason???None,none,none whatsoever.Like i said before,as long as you know what the heck you are doing and have expeireince with rest,food,weightlifting and aa's,you'll be fine.

This is a very good thread and very imformative to the young ones.Good read drummer

agreed....

As long as you know what you're doing and go about it safely.... life's too short (just don't make it shorter... lol)

[waderow]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

shit bro. youre a hard ass.

I am 6'1, 220 right now and deadlifting 550 I will not try, as I do not go for max on that exercise. No problem 315 x 20, or 405 x 8, but I just will not try that one... Too scared to injure.

Squat at 495.... deep? nope

Bench press 440, nope. 405...sure.


I have a pretty decent build too. I think you must be a shorty :)

[Drummer]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

I did mention training, but not in this amount of depth. Those milestones are pretty tough ones, but good ones. Those are tough to reach natty... years usually.

~D~

[Drummer]

The way i see it..why wait?In 3 years or so your gonna gain alot naturally..no doubt about it.But as many of you know,after 3 years gains go wayyyyyyyy down to like what..+-3 lbs a year or so on average for the next 3 years?Im certainley not going to wait cause i still have a few pounds of muscle in the bank becasue someone told me.What would honestly be the reason???None,none,none whatsoever.Like i said before,as long as you know what the heck you are doing and have expeireince with rest,food,weightlifting and aa's,you'll be fine.

This is a very good thread and very imformative to the young ones.Good read drummer

Ricky, i knew you would chime in! Its still your choice my man, regardless of what i think. I would just feel very irresponsible for recommending anything less than reaching a certain point before using. Its ok that you and your friend decided to use early, but it wouldnt be me telling you to do it. It would be you, and its your body, which is fine with me ;)

~D~

[ezturbo]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

Yeah right bowlcut. Your an extremist. Lucky I know you and your one of my closer homies, or I'd flame you :).

[Benny62]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

You forgot BE ABLE TO : Run 10 K in 35 mins and 100 meter dash of 11 seconds and complete the individual 400m long course medley in 5.5 minutes....or just try to do it without stopping.....or try and finish it at least..... without drowning.

[Drummer]

^^^ lol

[Shortdave]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

I guess it's time to start then.

[O-Train]

If 200lb guys waited for a 4 plate bench press then almost no one would take steroids. Although I know exactly what you're getting at and I definitely agree. Imagine the numbers a guy like Bowlcut described would hit after a couple years of cycles.

Edit: Except ShortDave, what are your numbers like right now?

[cog]

Bowlcut might be a short wide dude,or just blessed with an immense number of fibres.A number of years back there was a shorter version of Franco around,5 foot,170 pounds,he could bench 500 and do one-legged presses with 700,they called him the pocket hercules.To add to the list of reasons NOT,any long term sleep deficits.

[Shortdave]

Bowlsie is anything but a short wide dude. I, on the other hand, am exactly that.

At a bodyweight that fluctuates between a leanish 200 and a less leanish 210, my numbers are a 505 deadlift (I have horrible, horrible deadlifting levers) I haven't done an actual squat in a while, but it was also 505 when it was last attempted, I am focusing on box squats right now and it is at around 570 including the bands, bench is 405, but I am working at getting 10 reps at 365 before I move up from the 405.

Darkside this summer... I am giddy for it.

[Bowlcut]

shit bro. youre a hard ass.

I am 6'1, 220 right now and deadlifting 550 I will not try, as I do not go for max on that exercise. No problem 315 x 20, or 405 x 8, but I just will not try that one... Too scared to injure.

Squat at 495.... deep? nope

Bench press 440, nope. 405...sure.


I have a pretty decent build too. I think you must be a shorty :)

Obviously it depends on body type and a genera guide. A guy like Short Dave with arms that are stubs would do well on the bench, but all these guys who are 200 and 5, 10 should be able to dead at least 450.

Obv everyone has different proportions but if anyone thinks they are smart enough to use AAS without figuring out how to get strong natural is kidding themselves.

PS. Wade don't forget most guys get hurt doing 3rm or 5rm because the eccentric portion of the lift is when the body is most vulnerable.

[Bowlcut]

If 200lb guys waited for a 4 plate bench press then almost no one would take steroids. Although I know exactly what you're getting at and I definitely agree. Imagine the numbers a guy like Bowlcut described would hit after a couple years of cycles.

Edit: Except ShortDave, what are your numbers like right now?

I think everyone takes 2x as a given rule, but SD is drug free and benching big numbers because he has the knowledge of what exercises make a big bench.

Of course some guys are trying to add size, but the problem with bbers today is they don't train heavy enough.

[Beachmuscle]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

Powerlifter? I've been training for 7 years and I can't do lifts like that... close on the squat and deadlift... but to try to do lifts like that for me would = injury.

If you can lift like that, that's great. but I don't see many guys in the gym, even the huge ones, that can do lifts like that.

[Benny62]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

That's it I'm cutting to 175 so I can hit it!

[Drummer]

i hit that with my baby finger while asleep after a night of drinking in a hailstorm.

~D~

[Dozer1980]

wow great post here read it 2 times lol

[Kronis]

How about:

Should be able to
1) Deadlift 2.5 their body weight, natural.
2) Squat 2.25x their body weight
3) Bench 2x their body weight
4) know the difference between eccentric and concentric portions of an exercise and the best way to manipulate tempo for gains
5) Actually know about lifting weights and different forms of training

There's no way in hell I'd be able to dead 560+, Squat 500+, and bench 450 natural.

Everybody has different strength levels and using percentages of your weight to determine if someone is worthy of juicing is asinine. The last 2 are defniite requirements though.

[rickyboy36]

Ricky, i knew you would chime in! Its still your choice my man, regardless of what i think. I would just feel very irresponsible for recommending anything less than reaching a certain point before using. Its ok that you and your friend decided to use early, but it wouldnt be me telling you to do it. It would be you, and its your body, which is fine with me ;)

~D~

Well I respect that bro,truly i do.To each his own i guess:)
By the way,i started weight lifting at 33,did my first cycle at 36 and im 38 now.I payed my dues before hoping on:)

[Bowlcut]

Powerlifter? I've been training for 7 years and I can't do lifts like that... close on the squat and deadlift... but to try to do lifts like that for me would = injury.

If you can lift like that, that's great. but I don't see many guys in the gym, even the huge ones, that can do lifts like that.


Main reason why that is is because body builders train the muscle and athletes train the central nervous system.

My main point is some guys have very little idea of how to get stronger but think they should use juice.

[Drummer]

Main reason why that is is because body builders train the muscle and athletes train the central nervous system.

My main point is some guys have very little idea of how to get stronger but think they should use juice.

So true... thats why i wrote the thread. A general natural strength article i read once that said you were in the top 10% of men in strength went something like this (its foggy i might be a little off) :

Bench 1.5 times weight
deadlift 2 times weight
squat 2 times weight
shoulder press 1.2 times body weight

Or something along those lines.

~D~

[Drummer]

bump^^^