S4

[tiramisu]

bogus or real?

[BigWheel]

Sarms are for real and very well may be replacements for steroids, but I only know of one source and am unsure of the quality.

[physique]

courtesy anthony roberts

Yesterday, I blogged about my experience with S-4, a Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator. I had no idea that I’d be getting such a huge response for that one blog post. Right now, I’m conducting more research into the practical application of S-4. I’m not claiming to have discovered this great new thing…you can search many of the major message boards and find that people have been talking about them for literally years. On steroid.com and other places, you can actually see that I approached a couple of research chemical companies a few years back, and asked if they were interested in bringing them to the market (I was intellectually curious, I suppose).

Last December I even spoke to Don Caitlin about them - mostly just asking if they were on his radar yet. He told me that he was aware of them, but that they weren’t really an issue. At that point, I already knew that they were in the United States, and even in the state I was living in at the time.

So remember, SARMs aren’t new - the thing that makes them suddenly interesting again is the fact that I’ve finally gotten first-hand experience in using them, and that they’re available on the market. People have been flooding my inbox asking where to get it, but take a step back for a second and let’s make a list of what S-4 actually does and doesn’t do:

1. Undetectable (this doesn’t matter for most of my readers)
2. Oral (no injections needed, but this won’t matter for my readers)
3. Similar effects to testosterone (libido, strength gains, etc…)
4. No conversion to Dihydrotestosterone
5. No conversion to estrogen
6. As anabolic as testosterone propionate
7. No liver toxicity
8. Does not inhibit your HPTA (no reduction in LH or FSH)
9. (Legal?)
Now, in my experience, the strength gains were very good - although not much weight followed [My experience was in agreement with the Phase-II clinical trial on S-4] In other words we can look at this similarly to a high-dose of Anavar (in terms of strength and weight gains). But unlike Anavar (or Masteron, or Winstrol, or the DHT-Family of steroids), we won’t see a real “hardening effect” from it. We also won’t see the huge gains in muscle that testosterone or anadrol will give us.


SARMs won't make you look like the guy on the left, but they can probably keep you from looking like the guy on the right.
Remember, virtually all of the DHT-family of steroids (again I’m talking about Masteron, Winstrol, Anavar, Primobolan, Proviron) are what we consider “cutting drugs” - this is not a coincidence. Unfortunately, S-4 does not produce the same look to a physique as these drugs. It produces similar strength gains, and similar weight gains (a few pounds at most), and no water retention - but it just doesn’t make your physique “hard looking” like those other drugs. Realistically, we need to view S-4 as what it is…a nice, mild, non-liver-toxic oral anabolic.

It’s a fair trade off. There is no liver toxicity or inhibition of the HPTA…which is amazing for an oral androgen. It also means:

The ALL-ORAL cycle is now a possibility! Keeping 100% of your gains during PCT is possible!


On the internet, on most message boards, people will attack anyone asking about doing an all oral cycle. But in this case, if you can get your hands on S-4, then an all oral cycle is very possible. S-4 and Anavar would probably be an amazing cycle, but what I’d really like to try is S-4 and Proviron. Proviron is a nice DHT-derived non c17 alpha Alkylated steroid (and is therefore not liver toxic).

Using Proviron with S-4 would be an all oral, non-liver-toxic cycle that combines a nice hardening agent with a nice androgen that effectively replaces testosterone. I’d expect really great results for the average user on a cycle like this, and it has the added benefit of very low side effects - and it is an ALL ORAL cycle that you can run for 12 weeks without worrying about hepatoxicity.

I also think that S-4 has a strong potential for use in PCT. It doesn’t appear to inhibit the HPTA, and is a nice anabolic. I can imagine people making a full recovery using my PCT combined with S-4 and losing literally none of their gains (although they’d probably drop some water weight, I suspect they wouldn’t lose any muscle).

Anyway, I just thought I’d put some theories out there for you, let you know where I’ve been in my experience and research, and let you know what direction I’m going in with my current research on S-4 and SARMs in general.

Several months ago I received a bottle of S-4, a highly potent Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator. A few years ago (actually a lot of years) I pitched the idea of carrying SARMs to a couple of research chemical companies, but none were really interested in bringing them to the market. Then, a friend of mine contacted me asking about them, and since I had already done a ton of research on them, I forwarded all of it over to him. We had quite a few conversations about various SARMs and which would be the best one, etc…

I pretty much forgot about it until a year ago when he told me that he had figured out a way to get his hands on some. Then, this Summer, he sent me a bottle to try out - to help me write an article on them, and to figure out if the science stacks up to real performance. Remember, Halotestin is supposed to be almost 20x as anabolic as testosterone according to the research, but this isn’t how it plays out in real life.


SARM (S-4) Powder
According to the available research on S-4, it’s roughly 100% as potent as testosterone propionate, and only about 1/3rd as androgenic. There is no converstion to DHT and no conversion to estrogen - meaning if you’re one of those guys who suffers bad side effects from testosterone then this could be a God-send for you.

Or, if you’re one of those guys who buys a ton of ancillary products, then it means you can buy this stuff instead of Test + Finasteride + Arimidex and save a few bucks.

From actually using the compound, I can attest to this fact; it’s as potent as testosterone in terms of an anabolic effect, but honestly I didn’t notice any androgenic or estrogenic effects at all. There was no water retention, no acne, no real side effects at all (none that I noticed anyway).

I tried several different dosing protocols (daily, every other day, pre-workout-only), and found them all to be effective, based on dose. S-4 is very potent (although it has a very short half-life and active life), so I’m trying to figure out a really good dosing protocol. I’m partial to every day dosing, but pre-workout also on days that I train with weights (4 days per week).


S-4 Certificate of Analysis
Besides me, user feedback has been incredible (although some people report vision issues, similar to what is sometimes experienced with SERMs - Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators). I can’t comment on all of the various SARMs being seen in various medical journals, only the one that I’ve used…but much of the literature indicates that, in general, they are very potent oral anabolic agents - with potential for use in osteoperosis, wasting conditions, and androgen replacement therapy. They stimulate the androgen receptor in skeletal muscle tissue much the same way anabolic steroids do, but show much lower activity in the prostate and other tissues (the ones we probably don’t want androgen receptor activity in). They’re not God’s gift to steroid users, but honestly, I would feel comfortable saying that for most people, they’re going to be 100% just as good as testosterone (or better, for some people).



As far as I know, they’re currently not being regulated by the FDA and are not illegal to posess (but I’m no lawyer). I would suspect that a semi-loophole exists similar to the ones for research chems and IGF (which is a small loophole at best, but I suspect it protects the end user much more than the vendors). I’d love to tell you that I was the first person to talk about SARMs, but honestly they’ve been on the underground radar for about 4 years now (yeah, since the last Olympics - at least).


S-4 HPLC Paperwork
In January of 2008 they were recognized by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and added to the list of banned substances (along with Growth Hormone, Insulin, and IGF-I ….none of which have reliable testing methods yet).

I’m not sure what the future of SARMs is really going to be. I finished my first bottle a couple of months ago, so I’m certain that they are currently in


S-4 NMR Paperwork
the United States… I know I’m not the only person using them. And I’m not so sure how long they’re going to remain undetectable - but for now, they’re here, they’re potent, and they remain undetectable.

[L3]

i found a bunch of proviron sitting around now if i could only accidentally stumble upon some of this id be in business

[Roid-Monkey]

Great read! Thx! Now i gotta find some

[Ritch]

Interesting read. But I would not put that stuff in my body. Way too little experimentation done so far.

[goodfella]

well since its legal i guess its ok to post this...you can find it from a supplier on x...guys name is x...great guy ,,,hes got it

[z83]

well since its legal i guess its ok to post this...you can find it from a supplier on *************...guys name is **********...great guy ,,,hes got it

wow, remove this

[St]

wow, remove this


You know what outlaw is open to things there,its no big secret there.

[goodfella]

wow, remove this

why?...s4 isnt illegal as of now its a research chem...whats the big deal?

[z83]

you're still calling sources, open forum or not.

[goodfella]

you're still calling sources, open forum or not.

that source...only sources legal products research peptides and s4

[xxSCHiSMxx]

Interesting read. First I have heard of it.

[goodfella]

Interesting read. First I have heard of it.

from what i hear it sounds like a really good compound there is one reported side effect in some that is scary though..something about eyesite i forget ...but it negativly effects eyesite in some

[hyperlite32]

I am really interested in this stuff. Sounds great for PCT. I would love to read more about dose and length of time for use, how often it should be taken ECT...

Great read.

Is this the same stuff being sold by MHP??? The company victor martinez is sponsored by, I think they have a sprduct called SARM. Is this the same compound? i was under the impression from the other posts this is available in a "research type" website...

[z83]

I am really interested in this stuff. Sounds great for PCT. I would love to read more about dose and length of time for use, how often it should be taken ECT...

Great read.

Is this the same stuff being sold by MHP??? The company victor martinez is sponsored by, I think they have a sprduct called SARM. Is this the same compound? i was under the impression from the other posts this is available in a "research type" website...

not the same thing (http://blog.anthonyrobertsonline.com/2008/12/sarm-x-by-maximum-human-performance-sarm-x-by-mhp/)

[Descimus]

Sound good is it pricy? It would kinda replace d-bol??

[hyperlite32]

not the same thing (http://blog.anthonyrobertsonline.com/2008/12/sarm-x-by-maximum-human-performance-sarm-x-by-mhp/)

Thanks for clearing that up. Friggin' ad's...

[physique]

I am really interested in this stuff. Sounds great for PCT. I would love to read more about dose and length of time for use, how often it should be taken ECT...

Great read.

Is this the same stuff being sold by MHP??? The company victor martinez is sponsored by, I think they have a sprduct called SARM. Is this the same compound? i was under the impression from the other posts this is available in a "research type" website...

its not the same stuff. anthony roberts says sarms by mhp is ****ing junk!!

[physique]

As a result of my recent writings on Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators, I’ve been getting questions about a nutritional product called


SARM-X, which is produced by MHP. MHP is a nutritional company located in New Jersey (just over an hour from me), owned by IFBB professional bodybuilder Gerard Dente.

SARM-X is being promoted as a Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator, and being called superior to anabolic steroids by the MHP. I believe that they have combined two ingredients (one of which prevents binding of androgens to the prostate, and another which is a pro-hormone).

The main problem with SARM-X is that not just that it doesn’t work (user feedback has been horrible); the main problem with SARM-X is that it simply can’t work. There are two ingredients in this product that actually counteract each other, and one makes the other completely useless.

The first ingredient is DHEA…which people take in the hopes that it will ultimately be converted into testosterone (and therefore boost muscle mass and performance)- but first it has to be converted to androstenedione. To accomplish this, 3 Beta Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase is required as a catalyst.

Unfortunately, the other ingredient in SARM-X is Trans-4-Hydroxy-3-Methoxycinnamic Acid. This is also known as Ferulic Acid, a derivative of Cinnamic Acid; and that is the problem. Cinnamic Acid has the ability to INHIBIT (!) 3 Beta Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase!

Therefore, the DHEA in SARM-X will probably not convert to testosterone (at all), rendering the product completely inert and useless as a performance enhancer/muscle builder. When you combine DHEA with something that inhibits 3b-HSD, what you’ll get is no conversion to testosterone, and therefore no results from taking it.

This product was poorly conceived at best, and it’s shocking when a major company makes a mistake this big in one of their flagship products.

It’s not just that SARM-X doesn’t work - the problem is that it CAN’T WORK.

[hyperlite32]

Does this class of peptide fall into the "illegal" side or the "grey area"? I am just curious on its legality and if it is available in canada? delete if that breaks the rules...

[Descimus]

bump interested too

[jsv22]

very interesting, in the 5 mins i spend researching this (so far)
there are a few things that roberts is wrong about though..
it probably does affect the HPTA axis, but to what degree i dunno? (LH was seen to be affected in rats)
i guarentee that they ARE detectable!!!! it's foolish to think they aren't lol (checkout pubmed if you doubt this!)
they are similar to test in a very limited fashion (test effects are also mediated through DHT, estrogen, etc)
i'm not sure why he saying it's as effective as test prop ? what does the ester have to do with anything?
i hate how this guy states things like he knows exactly what he's talking about, these are experimental drugs that have been used in a very limited fashion on humans...maybe if he actually read the articles instead of just the abstracts! (his PCT with vitamin E is an absolutely priceless POS! LMAO)

anyways, this is some pretty exciting stuff.
here's some good articles if you are interested

http://www.nursa.org/article.cfm?doi=10.1621/nrs.06010

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/jpet.108.146811v1

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/jcem;84/10/3459

-jsv

[broken7]

well since its legal i guess its ok to post this...you can find it from a supplier on outlawmuscle...guys name is chavo...great guy ,,,hes got it

He ships domestic only (usa), thats what it says on that forum anyway

[Ritch]

There was a an episode on superhumanradio.com about this. You guys should check it out.

[tex]

anthony roberts......doesnt he sell the knock-off steroid products?

[Houstonbc]

i think he did before he got kicked off steroid.com

[goodfella]

He ships domestic only (usa), thats what it says on that forum anyway

yes you ar eright sorry i forget about that...but if you contact him he might be willing to send at your risk??...might be worth asking

[L3]

if you contact him he might be willing to send at your risk??

hes not :(

[big_luse]

"Real" SARMS are absolutley legit ... read up on them. Their development is in its infancy; however, they are essentially designed to be side effect free androgens. They are created to exhibit zero effect on target tissues such as the prostrate, scalp, breast tissue, etc and to ONLY give positive effects with respect to libido and muscle.

Only time will tell how legit these substances actually become - but keep your eyes peeled folks, because SARMS done right might be the next evolution of performance enhancers.

[broken7]

hes not :(

That sucks! He's coming out with some other sarms other then S-4 now too. Damnit I want some

[Descimus]

crapola
sounded too good

[hyperlite32]

getting the S-4 from the person mentioned in the previous post is hopeless. Dont waste your time.

[L3]

i think this is better for all of us. let the americans be the guinea pigs. if they grow a 3rd arm, too bad. if its gtg, it will make its way up north in due time....

[hyperlite32]

Would you guys buy this stuff if it was available anyways?
Just cuious, seems interesting.

[chan_ho_nam]

I'd be down to try it out, reading the feedback on OM it seems worth giving a shot. I gave the ghrp shit a try, all it did was make me hungry, very similair to slin. Absolutely no anabolic effects that I could notice.

[Gettin'r'round]

I'll stick to what works. Too much science experimenting going on right now.

[Kiem]

Go to http://www.superhumanradio.com/mp3/player.htm and listen to number #244 about SARMS. Very interesting stuff.

[Redz]

anthony roberts......doesnt he sell the knock-off steroid products?Watch out for that guy he got sued for millions I`m fairly sure hes totally broke now.

[chan_ho_nam]

Just an update, if all goes well, ands thats big if I'll be getting my hands on some end of the month.

I plan on running 50mg to start, possibly bumping to 100mg depending on effects. Will be running it for 4 weeks during my PCT, and 2-4 weeks after pct. Should be interesting to see if I can maintain my gains or even make new ones.

[jsv22]

Just an update, if all goes well, ands thats big if I'll be getting my hands on some end of the month.

I plan on running 50mg to start, possibly bumping to 100mg depending on effects. Will be running it for 4 weeks during my PCT, and 2-4 weeks after pct. Should be interesting to see if I can maintain my gains or even make new ones.

Please let us know how it goes for you! i'm very interested in this stuff...it has some great potential..

is it S4 your will be getting or another SARM (i'm sure there's more then a few in the pipeline)..

-jsv

[D-S]

My S-4 has landed me and a few buddies should be starting it sometime this week!! If you ask him nicely and your order is worth his time, he will send it to Canada...at least thats what he did for me

[chan_ho_nam]

Please let us know how it goes for you! i'm very interested in this stuff...it has some great potential..

is it S4 your will be getting or another SARM (i'm sure there's more then a few in the pipeline)..

-jsv

Will do, S4

[chan_ho_nam]

My S-4 has landed me and a few buddies should be starting it sometime this week!! If you ask him nicely and your order is worth his time, he will send it to Canada...at least thats what he did for me

Actually he's getting a canadian remailer soon.

[D-S]

Actually he's getting a canadian remailer soon.

Well if its truly as good as they say it is, and it doesnt effect your HPTA and what not...i'd buy 200 bottles! Need to try it first tho, should be in my hands in a few days

[phatkid77]

U and your friends are gay...lol

Phats

[chan_ho_nam]

Well if its truly as good as they say it is, and it doesnt effect your HPTA and what not...i'd buy 200 bottles! Need to try it first tho, should be in my hands in a few days

Damn skippy...I`m about the cycle off soon, I`m dying to get my grubby hands on it.

[L3]

logs plzzz...also bloodwork would be nice :D

[buildinthaskinnys]

Ok guys Whats the legality on this shit? anyone know yet? I have been searching and have found nothing, is it a grey area right now?

[jsv22]

logs plzzz...also bloodwork would be nice :D

ya a log would be great, bloodwork before, during and after would be too!!

is it going to be SARM only ?

-jsv

[jsv22]

Ok guys Whats the legality on this shit? anyone know yet? I have been searching and have found nothing, is it a grey area right now?

I"m pretty sure there is no gray areas in Canadian law in regards to research chemicals as there is in the US...

i bet they will seize it if they find out what it is..

[Gettin'r'round]

I was one of the first to get androstendione way back. A few years later it was showed all it did was boost estrogen. Thanks Dan Duchaine....

[tony_canuck]

yea i'm curious, since it's so new, will customs just seize it?

[varking]

I would love to give this a try...

[D-S]

yea i'm curious, since it's so new, will customs just seize it?

Both my packs went through customs without any problems

I will be getting alot of it when his next batch is ready, so hopefully no troubles..theres no resend policy!!!

[D-S]

Im 5 days in at 1.5mls a day, I feel really good...like I am on steroids, but just running the Sarms, Im up 5lbs...but thats b/c I havent been eating much or weight training at all for months, until this week...Im pretty hungry so I think it ups your apetite, no vision problems to report yet...as for my libido it still sucks, its been completely non existent since I stopped using gear 6 months ago or however long its been now...but I am feeling good now, strength is up a bit...i'll run this until I start to see any bad side effects if there is any

[small_guy]

Interested to see how this turns out for you. Good luck but be careful.

[Ritch]

I was one of the first to get androstendione way back. A few years later it was showed all it did was boost estrogen. Thanks Dan Duchaine....

LOL! I remember getting mine from ast research thinking I would get huge. MM2K at the time had predicted it would be the next big thing. Oh well back to the sarm conversation... You guys are nuts to even think about this stuff.

[varking]

Im 5 days in at 1.5mls a day, I feel really good...like I am on steroids, but just running the Sarms, Im up 5lbs...but thats b/c I havent been eating much or weight training at all for months, until this week...Im pretty hungry so I think it ups your apetite, no vision problems to report yet...as for my libido it still sucks, its been completely non existent since I stopped using gear 6 months ago or however long its been now...but I am feeling good now, strength is up a bit...i'll run this until I start to see any bad side effects if there is any

Nice to see you got it,.. Also its to bad about the old cock and balls.. Hopefully throwing some V back will help..

[Vomit]

What dosing schedule schedule are you using? If I remember correctly the oral half life is estimated to be 4 hours... Ill will try to find a reference

[wan2lrn]

LOL! I remember getting mine from ast research thinking I would get huge. MM2K at the time had predicted it would be the next big thing. Oh well back to the sarm conversation... You guys are nuts to even think about this stuff.

MM2K was the bible for me back then, probably about 10 years ago and that androstenedione Mr. Philips recommended, did absolutely nothing for me.

D-S, keep the info coming as I am interested in this stuff as well.