Front squat and belt

[TT Eric]

Hey guys! I've tried/fought to get back at back squats for near 2 years, but I've hurt myself way too often even with light weights (sub 2 plates). Since my lower back doesn't allow me to back squat, about 4 months ago I decided to try front squats, I do some stretching before, I do tons of warm-ups sets, slowly increasing my weights sets after sets, form is good, mobility is ok, it all goes well when I use a weight that is under my body weight, but when I go over my body weight it become tricky and often begin to have pain in lower back, pain that goes away very fast sometime, but also sometime pain that last a week or 2.

My question is would it be a good idea to use a belt even though I'm still using light weight (~185lbs) ? Maybe from there I could resume adding weight safely... One chiro said if I was to hurt my back with a belt it would be very bad, my current chiro says it's not true.

Eric

[cog]

Hey guys! I've tried/fought to get back at back squats for near 2 years, but I've hurt myself way too often even with light weights (sub 2 plates). Since my lower back doesn't allow me to back squat, about 4 months ago I decided to try front squats, I do some stretching before, I do tons of warm-ups sets, slowly increasing my weights sets after sets, form is good, mobility is ok, it all goes well when I use a weight that is under my body weight, but when I go over my body weight it become tricky and often begin to have pain in lower back, pain that goes away very fast sometime, but also sometime pain that last a week or 2.

My question is would it be a good idea to use a belt even though I'm still using light weight (~185lbs) ? Maybe from there I could resume adding weight safely... One chiro said if I was to hurt my back with a belt it would be very bad, my current chiro says it's not true.

Eric

not sure what the chiro actually understands.Are you certain your form is not breaking down?Have you tried the safety squat bar using your hands on the cage lightly ?I don't use anything under my heels but you might.Just as easy to have a form breakdown with front squats.

[TT Eric]

I've tried with elevated heels and prefer the feel of the ground. Not sure what you mean: front squatting with a safety squat bar ?

Fromer chiro, which was a bodybuilder said a belt could help but if one was to hurt himself while using one, the injury would be worst then if he hadn't... not sure if it was true.

Eric

[cog]

I've tried with elevated heels and prefer the feel of the ground. Not sure what you mean: front squatting with a safety squat bar ?

Fromer chiro, which was a bodybuilder said a belt could help but if one was to hurt himself while using one, the injury would be worst then if he hadn't... not sure if it was true.

Eric

the safety squat bar is in between a back squat and the difficulties of the front squat.The front squat would be even harder if you don't maintain an upright posture.Sitting back with the safety squat bar,your hands cupped around the uprights but not holding yourself,allows you to find out how far back you can sit.Raising your heels slightly is an excellent calf workout btw.

[steve_d]

Hey guys! I've tried/fought to get back at back squats for near 2 years, but I've hurt myself way too often even with light weights (sub 2 plates). Since my lower back doesn't allow me to back squat, about 4 months ago I decided to try front squats, I do some stretching before, I do tons of warm-ups sets, slowly increasing my weights sets after sets, form is good, mobility is ok, it all goes well when I use a weight that is under my body weight, but when I go over my body weight it become tricky and often begin to have pain in lower back, pain that goes away very fast sometime, but also sometime pain that last a week or 2.

My question is would it be a good idea to use a belt even though I'm still using light weight (~185lbs) ? Maybe from there I could resume adding weight safely... One chiro said if I was to hurt my back with a belt it would be very bad, my current chiro says it's not true.

Eric

I've been slowly increasing my raw squat to the floor and have noticed a lot of success in terms of low back problems going away. I threw out the ego and told myself I would slowly add weight and go from there. Literally only started with 135 pounds ass to the floor. I am now at 3 plates for a solid 8-10 after 5-6 hard sets of extensions+curls. I know its not insane weight, but it is still a work in progress. Would like to get up to 4 plates with same form, although I may need the belt to get back into the equation. No belt and feel way more solid than I ever have. I feel as though my legs get more benefit from 3 plates beltless to the floor than I had with 5 plates with belt, and not as low (box squats). At least overall - ie, no injuries, so I can move forward rather than 1 step forward 2 steps back.

Front squats, I tried, and can't. I don't know what my problem is but I can't front squat 75 pounds. My wrists don't bend that way and I have no flexibility in my arms to allow proper position under the bar. Oh well!

[TT Eric]

I'm glad your lower back problems went away Steve, this is exactly what I was hoping for also. Like I said I failed on back squats and tried it for about 2 years. I also threw my ego aside for front squats, even worse then you, I start super safely and very slowly add weights, I start with bodyweight warm-ups, then the bar, then 95lbs (yes lol), 115lbs, 135lbs, 155lbs, 175lbs and this where it became tricky sometime it hurts at 175lbs, sometime I could go a little more, sometime (often) not.

I think I'll try a belt just to see if my back will stop to 'spasm' / have this 'pinching/tearing' feeling.

Eric

[Praetorian]

I cannot front squat period...never could. I tried many many times and the bar simply falls off me because I have to lean so far forward because of my leverages. Not to mention the knee pain i get is not worth it.

Over the years I have gone from squatting 700+ lbs to now doing 315lbs for full deep reps. My knees can no longer take the pounding of the heavy weights so I have had to adjust my training both upper and lower body. Now i pre-exhaust by doing hams first, then high rep presses and finally squats where i can hit 315 for 3-4 sets of higher reps and not feel it in my knees or back.

Eric have you tried front squats on the smith machine after hamstrings and presses?

P

[TT Eric]

Didn't tried the smith machine, the ONE we have in the gym has an inclination, not sure if it's good for front squats (?).

I always do hamstrings first thing in the workout! But no leg press, like back squats they hurt my lower back bad. I really begin to be out of option, front squats are pretty much my last 'card', beside the 'secondary' exercises, like DB split squats, lunges and leg extension.

I would really like to nail the front squats, form seems to be good and mobility ok, not ass to the grass completely, but deep enough. I'll go slowly as for adding weights and build a capacity over time (I hope), if using a belt is acceptable even if I use light weights, I think I'll go that route, I will use the belt just on the last set or 2.

Eric

[cog]

Didn't tried the smith machine, the ONE we have in the gym has an inclination, not sure if it's good for front squats (?).

I always do hamstrings first thing in the workout! But no leg press, like back squats they hurt my lower back bad. I really begin to be out of option, front squats are pretty much my last 'card', beside the 'secondary' exercises, like DB split squats, lunges and leg extension.

I would really like to nail the front squats, form seems to be good and mobility ok, not ass to the grass completely, but deep enough. I'll go slowly as for adding weights and build a capacity over time (I hope), if using a belt is acceptable even if I use light weights, I think I'll go that route, I will use the belt just on the last set or 2.

Eric

a pair of kettle bells is a good way to check form,but getting anything heavy enough to challenge you is difficult.

[TT Eric]

Tried the belt yesterday. Did all the sets up to 175lbs without the belt and when I was at 185lbs I put it on, to be honest it felt weird like unnatural motion, at the 3rd reps I wobbled a little to I've stopped there. Had no pain in the lower back with or without. Will try again soon.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Today I did leg again, had no pain in the back so I was able to go up to 205lbs. Did not use the belt. Still not sure if I should use it or stay away, so as long as the lower back doesn't hurt I'll stay for now.

Eric

[cog]

Today I did leg again, had no pain in the back so I was able to go up to 205lbs. Did not use the belt. Still not sure if I should use it or stay away, so as long as the lower back doesn't hurt I'll stay for now.

Eric
Apparently a common way for men to put their back out is leaning forward while sitting to tie their shoes.Their belly acts as a wedge.The belt could do the same if your shoulders don't stay back or your thoracic spine rolls.

[steve_d]

Today I did leg again, had no pain in the back so I was able to go up to 205lbs. Did not use the belt. Still not sure if I should use it or stay away, so as long as the lower back doesn't hurt I'll stay for now.

Eric

just take it easy. don't move up in weight, just get a few more reps if you can. Stop before you get to failure. Take as long as you need. not worth even pushing yourself a bit. I know its contradictory to the way I say to push yourself in workouts, but there are plenty other things you can do after to completely kill your legs. long term your back will thank you

[Praetorian]

Completely agree with Steve...when you get "old" and I say this nicely ;o) as I am in the same boat...you need to train smarter not harder. Using techniques like pre-exhaust will help maintain back integrity and allow you to still keep intensity high. My training has completely changed in the last 6 months due to the realization that if I continue training as I was ie heavy compounds first I would end up injured and my lifting career would be very short lived. For legs I now start with leg curls and then move on to leg presses but not super heavy say 6-7 plates per side. (ive done 17 plates per side so this is vastly different) and go for 4 sets of 20.
Once done I will move on to single leg lunges on a hammer machine (the one normally used for squats) and crank out 3-4 sets of 10 for each leg. The I move on to free bar squats and 315 is going to feel like a tonne and that would be my maximum weight used on squats...sometimes 225lbs is all i use and go for higher reps ie 20. After that dumbbell squats to finish and finally dumbbell or barebell stiff legged deads to finish the hams and glutes.

P

[TT Eric]

Thanks for the friendly advice guys, I was hype to try 225lbs but I've read this before going to the gym and decided to listen to you guys and go easier/keep some in the tank. Did a total of 8 sets, from light to 195lbs. No back problem. No belt.

Since I restarted doing front squats (3-4 months ago) I was focus on making my way up fast since I'm kinda ashamed of using such light weights (I still had your word echoed in my head when you said going heavy ie not using 135lbs), but as you said, being not so young and having so much scaring tissue, compressed disks, etc.. I should focus on quality reps, slower, pin point and not try to go crazy at the expense of the form and risking injuries. I'll try to ramp up the reps in the 135lbs-185lbs area before thinking of going 225lbs+. Especially since I'm going into vacation in 5 days, not a good time to hurt myself.

And as Steve said, if well done, I think it will improve my lower back strength and I'll be able to use more weights eventually. Just gotta be patient.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Hey I wanted to say that after my 3 week break when I got back to squat, I've been insanely sore in all the upper legs, but it was particularly hurting more in the VMOs (big time) and the hamstrings. This is a question I had about where the front squat was targeting exactly in my legs.

Eric

[steve_d]

So where did it hurt? You said upper legs, VMO, and hamstrings... that's everywhere except the glutes! Are you saying the front squat targeted mostly the hams and VMO? Like I was saying in the other thread - prepare to be crazy sore with every workout for a little while! Even without pushing yourself you'll experience some pretty wild soreness.

[TT Eric]

Yes all the upper legs, but particularly the VMOs and the hamstrings, not the glutes. Yeah everything hurts, only the chest/triceps so far were sore 'as usual', no more, no less.

Eric

[cog]

Sounds like form is good.

[TT Eric]

TBH I didn't thought front squats would hit the hamstrings as bad.

Eric

[Sean Summers]

Why don't you try belt squats. I have this set up in my home gym and it's awesome!

Here is one option:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PldcPTOACm4

[Sean Summers]

Here is what I have at home:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhjc-mUezyA

No stress at all on lower back!

[TT Eric]

Thanks for the suggestion SS, I've tried it between benches with a belt for dips and chins and the chains were digging in my inner thighs, I would need to find a special belt like those ^. Doing this exercise has been in the back of my mind for the last 2-3 years, though I find the stance a bit wide, maybe too much hamstrings/glutes for me, for my quads are currently lagging.

We had a Nautilus machine for this 25 years ago, it allowed me to do the heaviest squats I ever made and you are right, no stress on the lower back at all, but I don't see those kind of machine anymore.

Westside has a nice machine for this:

http://www.westside-barbell.com/components/com_mijoshop/opencart/image/cache/data/1378321688_BeltSquatMachine1-500x500.jpg

Eric

[Sean Summers]

I made the grey platforms here:

http://www.home-gym-bodybuilding.com/homemade-belt-squat.html

Pretty easy build. I'll try to get up a video later tonight. Leg day baby!

[cog]

We used to have an improvised belt station with a stack at BJ's gym years back.I would get a pit shark station if I was ever going to equip a gym.

[TT Eric]

I made the grey platforms here:

http://www.home-gym-bodybuilding.com/homemade-belt-squat.html

Pretty easy build. I'll try to get up a video later tonight. Leg day baby!

This is exactly what I would want! I'm not sure if I build one, if the gym will allow me to leave it there.

I'm really interested to see the video!!

Eric

[cog]

I think this is a worthwhile pursuit and it would automatically solve the form problems for so many people. Just be sure to include deads in your program and you're gtg.

[TT Eric]

I cannot do any form of deads, I've tried a lot and hurt myself so many time even with children weight. Hamstrings are not a problem for me though.

Eric

[Sean Summers]

Here is the video....not the greatest angle. I'll get a better video up after next leg day. I'll make sure the boxes are shown better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S43rQ_J7O6M&list=UUW7NR7BDD2zWCM_bIC3GLiA

[TT Eric]

Nice! But I was wondering, up to how much weight can you use? It seems pretty limited to a few plates.

Eric

[Sean Summers]

I can widen the distance between the boxes to allow for more plates. If I really wanted to go heavy I could use dumbbells instead of plates. I had 135 lbs on the belt and easily could have put on 2 x 150lbs dumbbells.

[TT Eric]

Quick update! I'm still going at front squats, I've tried again using a belt, got used to it and now I enjoy it, it really hold my back together, I've been injury free in the lower back for a looooong time! I'm doing now around 5-6 working sets plus many warm-up sets and all seems to go well. I usually stay in 10-15 area, but last time I did: 45, 95, 115, 135, 155 for warm-ups and 175, 175, 185, 205, 225, 155 for working sets.

It was the first time I've tried 225lbs on the front squats and it went perfectly, no flaws, I felt I could have gone to 245lbs for 1-2 reps but preferred to stay on the safe side and go for high reps with 155lbs (only did 15 though).

Although all the restrictions I have, mobility seems not so bad on this exercise. Lots of people tell me I have a solid technique, that I go deep, ask me tips/to help them perfect their technique, etc...

One thing though I still get insanely sore in the hamstrings, like 10x more then the quads, it usually last 4 days, so I train train legs each 5 days (3x per 2 weeks).

Eric

[TT Eric]

Another update, been doing front squats with my belts since all this time, I've hurt my back twice since then, enough to put me aside for a few weeks/months, both time were with (only) 245lbs, so I decided to try removing 2 plates and hook them on my dip/chin's belt and use 2 little steps we have at the gym to be higher and resuming doing front squats but with 90 lbs less up top.

I have done about a dozen training like that and so far it goes well, I'm still moving up slowly but surely, being cautious, I'm now at 255lbs (165lbs + 90lbs). Only downside is the chain of the belt is digging in the skin, so I get bruised over bruise over bruise (I squat 3 times per week), so I ordered the spud belt SS recommended to try, not sure how I will manage to do this at the gym yet, I will need higher steps then the ones I use now... I'll try to use the shortest chain I can to start and see from there, cause actually with the dip belt the plates are close to 'home' and I even though it's that close I can touch the ground with the plates when I'm at the bottom position.

Eric

[cog]

The video looks like it would be near impossible to injure yourself in that manner.I find my shoulders still need back squats or they start to lose some flexibility getting into position.

[TT Eric]

The video looks like it would be near impossible to injure yourself in that manner.I find my shoulders still need back squats or they start to lose some flexibility getting into position.

Yes if all the weight is on the hips it's pretty safe. I have done a lot of squats that way in the 80s-90s when we had the set-up for that, 450lbs x 20 reps weeks in and out with absolutely no lower back pain...

Ironically I'm writing this from my bed... still hurt myself doing the 'hybrid' lift yesterday... the spud belt with a short chain does help for making less bruises in the inner thighs but it hurts the hips like the chin-up belt does, the problem is to have the weight belt over the squat belt, it seems that the weight belt (Spud or chin-up belt) is pulling down my Inzer belt down into my hip bone, so I have it painfully sit on the hip bone each time I lower down... making a large bruise there too, so I tried to put the Inzer belt higher to avoid that but it just moved the problem to the ribs.

Eric

[cog]

Yes if all the weight is on the hips it's pretty safe. I have done a lot of squats that way in the 80s-90s when we had the set-up for that, 450lbs x 20 reps weeks in and out with absolutely no lower back pain...

Ironically I'm writing this from my bed... still hurt myself doing the 'hybrid' lift yesterday... the spud belt with a short chain does help for making less bruises in the inner thighs but it hurts the hips like the chin-up belt does, the problem is to have the weight belt over the squat belt, it seems that the weight belt (Spud or chin-up belt) is pulling down my Inzer belt down into my hip bone, so I have it painfully sit on the hip bone each time I lower down... making a large bruise there too, so I tried to put the Inzer belt higher to avoid that but it just moved the problem to the ribs.

Eric

SS is not wearing a belt and neither is the other guy besides the hip belt.Why do you need the inzer with no weight on your shoulders?

[TT Eric]

SS is not wearing a belt and neither is the other guy besides the hip belt.Why do you need the inzer with no weight on your shoulders?

I'm using only 2 plates (90lbs) with the spud belt, the remaining weight is up there in a front squat position.

Eric

[TT Eric]

I started back leg training this week, 1st time since last injury, back is 90%, but still can't do Front squat, I tried, but the back said 'no'! So I tried something new, I went from Front squat to Goblet squat, with the spud belt I can put 4 plates max down bellow since it's only a few inches under the balls, so I grabbed a 60 lbs DB and began to do goblet squats, 240lbs there felt exactly like 240 front squats in the legs, but much easier on the back, no pain in the back so far even if the back is still not 100%. It seems to be the safest way for me to do squats (my favorite exercise), not as cool as regular squats or front squats, but where I am it doesn't seems I have to be picky, I'll take what I can do. My only concern is how I will swing heavier DBs up there (1XX lbs) with 180lbs dangling between the legs over those steps.

Eric

[RamonSmith]

This is really impressive exercise you shared with us, I will surely try this.

[TT Eric]

I have improved my set-up a little bit again, almost 3 months without injuring my back is an absolute PR, in the last 5 years the longer I went was about 4 weeks without back injuries. This consistency helped make some gain.

I'm now using higher steps and a longer chain, so I can put 5 plates down under + one more flat on my chest that I hold with my hands.

My son took a video a few weeks ago of me doing 270lbs x 10 that I wanted to share, just waiting for him to send it from his phone...

But since then I already moved up to 295lbs. With this set-up I'm able to go to 315lbs max, after that I will have to think of a new solution.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Did 315lbs x 5! Holding 5 plates between the legs with the belt and 2 plates in my hands, flat on my chest.

This is such a back saver, usually when I was squatting with a bar most of my attention was going toward my core / trying to avoid getting injured, now I can focus on the working muscles and on my form. I must say it's really nice to progress without setbacks. In the last 5 years the longest I went without back injuries was 4 weeks... Granted, I also stopped doing other exercises that was causing back injuries, like rowing BB or DB, DB presses, etc... but leg day was always the most risky for me.

Eric

[TT Eric]

I thought I would also update this. For the last year I have squatted with the spud belt, usually with 6 or 7 plates, depending if I want to do more reps or not.

One unexpected thing, one day I felt like trying back the front squats and surprisingly my front squat improved after almost one year off of it. First time I tried 225lbs it went well, second time I tried 275lbs (my new front squat PR).

So now since I train my legs 3 times a week, I think I'll try to do front squats once a week, squat with the spud belt once a week and 3rd training with a machine like hack-squat of do some split squats + GHR.

Using the spud belt was a great idea IMO, even some guys at the gym are moving to this exercise after seeing me and talked to me.

One thing I've noticed though, it's really easy to push with the toes instead of the heel since there is no weight on the shoulders, but it's not a good idea since it put a lot of pressure on the knees. Always keep in mind to push with the heels like any other leg exercise.

Eric