How supplements are really made

[Talo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBjpjiNtLM

Maybe the few supplement companies on this board can shed some light on this.

[Sean Summers]

What's there to shed light on? Will is 100% correct. In Canada, companies like PVL, Kaizen and Interactive manufacture their own products but companies like Allmax, NxLabs and GNC's ProPerformance source that process out. Just as Will says - that really isn't a problem. The problem exists when the manufacturer gets their raw materials from questionable sources (he mentioned that CreaPure was good but other raws were bad...etc). An example of a manufacturer in Canada is Fortius. Fortius produces for other companies but also have their own line. You may have seen some of their products in the grocery store - Dynawhey in the bags.
What Will should have touched on is the fact that some companies request that the manufacturer use lower quality/grade raws to keep the price down. Protein spiking - ever heard of that??? Essentially it is when a company requests (or a manufacturer offers) low grade protein (think animal grade) and spikes it with cheap aminos (taurine, gycine..etc) to bring up the protein count. So the next time you are getting a cheap ass isolate now you know what you are really getting. In the supplement industry the saying "you get what you pay for" is so true. Cheap ass bodybuilders who cry about the cost of protein are just as much to blame as the companies who supply shit products.
SS

[#8]

Can we have a list on this site of GMP certified companies who independent third party testing? That would be cool.

[NACanada]

What's there to shed light on? Will is 100% correct. In Canada, companies like PVL, Kaizen and Interactive manufacture their own products but companies like Allmax, NxLabs and GNC's ProPerformance source that process out. Just as Will says - that really isn't a problem. The problem exists when the manufacturer gets their raw materials from questionable sources (he mentioned that CreaPure was good but other raws were bad...etc). An example of a manufacturer in Canada is Fortius. Fortius produces for other companies but also have their own line. You may have seen some of their products in the grocery store - Dynawhey in the bags.
What Will should have touched on is the fact that some companies request that the manufacturer use lower quality/grade raws to keep the price down. Protein spiking - ever heard of that??? Essentially it is when a company requests (or a manufacturer offers) low grade protein (think animal grade) and spikes it with cheap aminos (taurine, gycine..etc) to bring up the protein count. So the next time you are getting a cheap ass isolate now you know what you are really getting. In the supplement industry the saying "you get what you pay for" is so true. Cheap ass bodybuilders who cry about the cost of protein are just as much to blame as the companies who supply shit products.
SS

Good Post!

I also want to add even though alot of people look negatively on china sourced raw ingredients there are still companies there that supply high quality products. I have personally seen 3rd party testing on china sourced creatine that came back 99% + purity (and free of TC, EColi, OG...etc)

PH

[tony_canuck]

good info all around!

[Sean Summers]

Oh I should mention that a C of A (Certificate of Analysis) from China is BS. They'll make it up for you. Go with a reputable one from North America.

#8 - I'll check and see if I can get a list for you. A good site to check out is www.consumerlab.com They test products - they are US based so most of the products are US. Unfortunately, for protein they only test grams of protein and not individual aminos. They mostly test vitamins...etc, not a lot of sports supplements. And it's a pay site. I have a subscription so if you would like to see a report let me know.
SS

[#8]

^^ is there any way you can post up a sticky of supplement manufacturers and or the companies that use them that use these legit procedures. my money situation is worse than devastating but i will pay a bit more to get something that i KNOW is what im buying.

If you could do that it would be epic cool.

:)

[physique]

What's there to shed light on? Will is 100% correct. In Canada, companies like PVL, Kaizen and Interactive manufacture their own products but companies like Allmax, NxLabs and GNC's ProPerformance source that process out. Just as Will says - that really isn't a problem. The problem exists when the manufacturer gets their raw materials from questionable sources (he mentioned that CreaPure was good but other raws were bad...etc). An example of a manufacturer in Canada is Fortius. Fortius produces for other companies but also have their own line. You may have seen some of their products in the grocery store - Dynawhey in the bags.
What Will should have touched on is the fact that some companies request that the manufacturer use lower quality/grade raws to keep the price down. Protein spiking - ever heard of that??? Essentially it is when a company requests (or a manufacturer offers) low grade protein (think animal grade) and spikes it with cheap aminos (taurine, gycine..etc) to bring up the protein count. So the next time you are getting a cheap ass isolate now you know what you are really getting. In the supplement industry the saying "you get what you pay for" is so true. Cheap ass bodybuilders who cry about the cost of protein are just as much to blame as the companies who supply shit products.
SS

took the words right out of my mouth. for all you guys that bitched at me when i said your beloved costco kaizen 100% isolate isnt the same as the one i sell in my store, now you know why its cheaper.

SS makes a good point about the first 3 companies above, those companies also have a certificate with health canada, that states all their raws must be 99.9% of what the raw is. if it isnt they are to throw it out.

[nii]

took the words right out of my mouth. for all you guys that bitched at me when i said your beloved costco kaizen 100% isolate isnt the same as the one i sell in my store, now you know why its cheaper.

Can you clarify on that?

From what i understood, these third party companies just grab their product from the 'middle man' mixers and slap on their marketing . How can the same company (say Kaizen) sell the identical product to you and to costco, but you seem to have a different blend? Or are you referring to an different brand of isolate?

[physique]

Can you clarify on that?

From what i understood, these third party companies just grab their product from the 'middle man' mixers and slap on their marketing . How can the same company (say Kaizen) sell the identical product to you and to costco, but you seem to have a different blend? Or are you referring to an different brand of isolate?

because they are cutting corners. as SS said above, they are doing something called protein spiking. they will also use low grade crap like soy and list it as 100% isolate on the label. This isnt Canada, this kind of crap happens all the time in the USA. there food and drug act is not even close to the restrictions in this country.

The kaizen that we carry is made in Canada by Winning Combination. Another company that has there GMP certificates from health canada.
The USA Kaizen which is what all the Costco stores carry isnt the same nor is it regulated the same.

[nii]

Just took a glance at the Kaizen that i purchased this past week from costco and its labeled as 'Manufactured for distribution by winning combination inc'.

To be honest I never really paid attention to it, but its good to know. Thanks for the heads up mate. I would never have thought that the same 'manufacturer' would use different blends (dependent on location i guess).

[Talo]

The kaizen that we carry is made in Canada by Winning Combination. Another company that has there GMP certificates from health canada.
The USA Kaizen which is what all the Costco stores carry isnt the same nor is it regulated the same.

?


Just took a glance at the Kaizen that i purchased this past week from costco and its labeled as 'Manufactured for distribution by winning combination inc'.

[nii]

?

Im guessing Costco used to carry the stuff he's referring to.

[Talo]

I was just putting that down because he said that the cheap costco brand wasn't the same as the one he sold - Same Name but different .

But then you said it was the same . So I guess you get the cheap costco stuff , but it still has the same good quality as the other stuff

[Talo]

What I really want to know is where True Supplements and True Protein get their stuff from ?

Since they sell bulk not much ( if any ) info comes with their products when you buy them.

[nii]

What I really want to know is where True Supplements and True Protein get their stuff from ?

Since they sell bulk not much ( if any ) info comes with their products when you buy them.

They're a sponsor of this forum, go to their section and ask their rep, or call them up directly and post their response.

IW is a standup guy and may tune in here.

[#8]

What I really want to know is where True Supplements and True Protein get their stuff from ?

Since they sell bulk not much ( if any ) info comes with their products when you buy them.

moi aussi

all aminos and raw ingredients.

here is a time to shine for the supplement sponsors. lets have at it.

[Canadian Protein.com]

No Problem, here's a quick list of some of our suppliers:

Glanbia (supplements and protein), we're bringing in ajipure soon as well, davisco soon for isolate and sometimes concentrate, Hilmar for protein, etc. we also use a Major Canadian distributor that supplies very large brands (who has been mentioned on the board before ;) and who does 3rd party testing as well for their products coming in to ensure purity and etc. We're putting together a new site that will have a tab on our products for their COAs that will be from 3rd party testing that we currently do, but then have a place holder for them on the new site.

Here's a word of advice. Anyone can smudge anything these days, being the manufacturer, supplier, retailer, you name it. The only way to really know is to test it yourself. And if you're unable to or unwilling, then try it and if you feel it is high quality then there you have it which is why we offer free samples of our products before you buy that way you can decide for yourself.

Also, don't think for one second that companies like alzchem don't run into problems, just because they have a name brand behind their creatine.

[Sean Summers]

Typically when a company makes a product for mass market and one for the health food chain they are different. For example a fat loss product in mass may be 30 pills where in the health food chain it may be 90 pills. Or the dosage in mass may be 1/2 what it is in health food chain. As far as I know Kaizen doesn't spike their protein. The one in mass (Costco) is American sourced protein, sweetened with sucralose and is a 4.4 lb. The one in the health food chain is New Zealand sourced protein, sweetened with stevia and is a 5 lb. Totally different products. Right out of the gates the health food chain is going to be priced higher because it is a better quality product. You want to know why Costco is cheaper? They work on 17% (or close to that) margins. Health food stores work on 40-50% margins. I wouldn't be looking at Kaizen for protein spiking - I would be looking elsewhere.
SS

[Sean Summers]

Oh yeah....Winning Combination is Kaizen just as MuscleTech is Iovate just as NxLabs is WellNx Life Sciences....etc.
SS

[nii]

And how would someone thats not in the industry know where Kaizen sources there protein, and the quality of said protein?

I can confirm that costco carries the 4.4 tub and is sweetened with sucralose. American vs New Zealand, how does a consumer find what source is 'better'?


Typically when a company makes a product for mass market and one for the health food chain they are different. For example a fat loss product in mass may be 30 pills where in the health food chain it may be 90 pills. Or the dosage in mass may be 1/2 what it is in health food chain. As far as I know Kaizen doesn't spike their protein. The one in mass (Costco) is American sourced protein, sweetened with sucralose and is a 4.4 lb. The one in the health food chain is New Zealand sourced protein, sweetened with stevia and is a 5 lb. Totally different products. Right out of the gates the health food chain is going to be priced higher because it is a better quality product. You want to know why Costco is cheaper? They work on 17% (or close to that) margins. Health food stores work on 40-50% margins. I wouldn't be looking at Kaizen for protein spiking - I would be looking elsewhere.
SS

[Sean Summers]

New Zealand cows are not given antibiotics, not given drugs to produce more milk, are grass feed...etc. American cows probably not ;-)
You have to do your research. Does it matter to you that the cow isn't given drugs to produce more milk? Some care. I don't. It's a personal preference.
New Zealand raws cost more than American raws because of that fact.
Research in places other than bodybuilding boards if you want a cleaner source. Or talk with the rep/company.
SS

[Canadian Protein.com]

I tell you what, to be honest with you need to checkout other food sources if you're worried about whey and antibiotics etc. That source should be that last of your worries!