SLin usE

[Demonwolf]

I'm interested in hearing your ideas on insulin use for growth enhancement on a low-moderate carb diet. I will be running aas and might consider hgh as well.

The hared part is that when i read this info on slin use on the net there is either no science behind it, or someone tries to apply science that don't really support the theory.

so I'd like to see links or whateve if possible, with your proceedures please.

anyone?:confused:

[Demonwolf]

for example, you can see all over the community the misinformation that it "forces aminos into the cell along with glucose"

Aminos and small peptides are absobed by cells by a plasma membrane the absorbing cell has least four sodium-dependent amino acid transporters - one each for acidic, basic, neutral and amino acids. These transporters bind amino acids only after binding sodium. The fully loaded transporter then undergoes a conformational change that dumps sodium and the amino acid into the cytoplasm, followed by its reorientation back to the original form. This makes the cell's amino concentration depend on the sodium balance inside and outside ot the cell.

Small peptides are absorbed into the small intestinal epithelial cell by cotransport with H+ ions via a transporter called PepT1.
Once inside, the vast bulk of absorbed di- and tripeptides are digested into amino acids by cytoplasmic peptidases and exported from the cell into blood. Only a very small number of these small peptides enter blood intact.

Not much to do with insulin at all.

[Demonwolf]

More backwards thinking?

HGH and Insulin: Gym rats say that slin enhances the effects of gh. when really gh raises insulin resistance by counteracting it's effect on blood sugar levels. So taking gh and slin together does nothing but further worsen the situation.
Growth hormone has important effects on protein, lipid and carbohydrate metabolism. In some cases, a direct effect of growth hormone has been clearly demonstrated, in others, IGF-I is thought to be the critical mediator, and some cases it appears that both direct and indirect effects are at play.

Protein metabolism: In general, growth hormone stimulates protein anabolism in many tissues. This effect reflects increased amino acid uptake, increased protein synthesis and decreased oxidation of proteins.
Fat metabolism: Growth hormone enhances the utilization of fat by stimulating triglyceride breakdown and oxidation in adipocytes.
Carbohydrate metabolism: Growth hormone is one of a battery of hormones that serves to maintain blood glucose within a normal range. Growth hormone is often said to have anti-insulin activity, because it supresses the abilities of insulin to stimulate uptake of glucose in peripheral tissues and enhance glucose synthesis in the liver. Somewhat paradoxically, administration of growth hormone stimulates insulin secretion, leading to hyperinsulinemia.

[MassNutrition]

I know exactly what you mean... Being a huge fan of Insulin myself, I have always been curious as to Insulin's direct (in indirect) action with muscle growth.

Here is a link I came across a while back. It talks about the basic ABC's of Insulin in layman's terms:

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/Molbio/MolStudents/spring2005/Dresser/My%20favorite%20Protein.html

Here are a few key points as well taken directly from that link:

Other metabolic reactions insulin stimulates:
-glucose transport
-amino acid transport
-glycogen synthase activity
-increases rate of general protein synthesis
-decreases lipolysis and protein degradation (Lilly, 1996).

[bigdaddydrew123]

good read mass. easy to understand. heres my experience as of late with slin. just started it. do 10iu pwo. then immediately have shake with 110 grams carbs 50 pt. within an hour have about 50/50 carb pt.then about 4 hour mark i get cold sweats start shaking need sugar bad . shouldnt humalog have left me by this point. maybe i need to time another meal in there .any way of dealing with this should i lower dose. experienced people have any ideas

[Bigtred]

I don't see any benefit of slin on a low to moderate carb diet. In my experience, the people who see the benefits of slin the most are hardgainers/ectomorphs. SLin allows to get ram more cals down your throat than you normally would be able to as well as speeds those precious nutrients into muscle cells.

[mcgee]

good read mass. easy to understand. heres my experience as of late with slin. just started it. do 10iu pwo. then immediately have shake with 110 grams carbs 50 pt. within an hour have about 50/50 carb pt.then about 4 hour mark i get cold sweats start shaking need sugar bad . shouldnt humalog have left me by this point. maybe i need to time another meal in there .any way of dealing with this should i lower dose. experienced people have any ideas

Have another meal 2 hours after your one hour mark meal. it can still be active at this time.

I trie to get alot of complex carbs in at my one hour mark meal, instead of sugars. That way I can probally go without the last meal, but would rather not risk it as I am bulking.

[MassNutrition]

good read mass. easy to understand. heres my experience as of late with slin. just started it. do 10iu pwo. then immediately have shake with 110 grams carbs 50 pt. within an hour have about 50/50 carb pt.then about 4 hour mark i get cold sweats start shaking need sugar bad . shouldnt humalog have left me by this point. maybe i need to time another meal in there .any way of dealing with this should i lower dose. experienced people have any ideas

Your PWO shake looks fine. I would opt that 50/50 carb/pt (shake or meal?) for a full blown complex carb meal at this time, with the same amount of carbs as your PWO shake...

For example, I personally do the same as you and take the exact shake PWO (100g simple carbs, with 50g whey protein). Approx an hour after that, I ingest a full solid-food meal that includes 100g of complex carbs (oatmeal is perfect for me), with another 40-50g of protein (chicken breast or egg whites... remember, NO FAT!) with a veggie (ie. 1 cup of brocolli). Three hours after that, I have my next solid food meal, and it usually has NO carbs in it. I have felt perfectly fine, with no shakes, tremors, or any kind of sweats of the sort... and remember, I have punched as much as 18IUs of Slin too.

Try this, it should do the trick. If not, then maybe you might want to lower the dose slightly. Experiment, but experiment WISELY... we all know what Insulin can do. Good luck Bro, let me know how it goes.

[Demonwolf]

I know exactly what you mean... Being a huge fan of Insulin myself, I have always been curious as to Insulin's direct (in indirect) action with muscle growth.

Here is a link I came across a while back. It talks about the basic ABC's of Insulin in layman's terms:

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/Molbio/MolStudents/spring2005/Dresser/My%20favorite%20Protein.html

Here are a few key points as well taken directly from that link:

Other metabolic reactions insulin stimulates:
-glucose transport
-amino acid transport
-glycogen synthase activity
-increases rate of general protein synthesis
-decreases lipolysis and protein degradation (Lilly, 1996).


Thanks for the link.

I notice again howver that there is zero documentation supporting his statement that it aids in amino acid transport.
Also, it seems to me that since amino to protein sythesis takes place inside the cell that insulin cannot be involved in that either since insulin doesn't cross the cell membrane ?

[bigdaddydrew123]

Your PWO shake looks fine. I would opt that 50/50 carb/pt (shake or meal?) for a full blown complex carb meal at this time, with the same amount of carbs as your PWO shake...

For example, I personally do the same as you and take the exact shake PWO (100g simple carbs, with 50g whey protein). Approx an hour after that, I ingest a full solid-food meal that includes 100g of complex carbs (oatmeal is perfect for me), with another 40-50g of protein (chicken breast or egg whites... remember, NO FAT!) with a veggie (ie. 1 cup of brocolli). Three hours after that, I have my next solid food meal, and it usually has NO carbs in it. I have felt perfectly fine, with no shakes, tremors, or any kind of sweats of the sort... and remember, I have punched as much as 18IUs of Slin too.

Try this, it should do the trick. If not, then maybe you might want to lower the dose slightly. Experiment, but experiment WISELY... we all know what Insulin can do. Good luck Bro, let me know how it goes.
thanx will give it a shot. update how itworks later

[Demonwolf]

bump?

[gustavo77]

Well, my uneducated opinion is that obviously, there has not been any studies that have focused on insulin use in this fashion, so complete data will just not be available....BUT there has to be an reason for the astounding development of bodybuilders in the last 20 years.... Look, if insulin did not provide any anabolic benefit, then why would pro BB's be using it like water?? How could Ronnie Coleman go from 260lbs on stage to 296 the next year???

[MassNutrition]

How could Ronnie Coleman go from 260lbs on stage to 296 the next???

I'm with Gus on this one... I'm still freaked out over Phil Heath's transformation from the side by side photos posted by Freeze in the other post... unreal.

[Demonwolf]

Well, my uneducated opinion is that obviously, there has not been any studies that have focused on insulin use in this fashion, so complete data will just not be available....BUT there has to be an reason for the astounding development of bodybuilders in the last 20 years.... Look, if insulin did not provide any anabolic benefit, then why would pro BB's be using it like water?? How could Ronnie Coleman go from 260lbs on stage to 296 the next year???

I'm as in the dark as you friend. But let me ask this: Sinse insulin is cheap and easily and legally gotten why isn't the "Ronnie Coleman Phenomenon" happening to everyone who is using it?

Of course I'm aware that BB type use is not very documented in studies if at all, but all these people taking it ,saying it does this and that [like amino transport, which is completely false as far as i can find] there points are all the same, it seems. But Insulin action is WIDELY studied in human trials regarding carb reactions ,fat reactions, and protein reactions as well as side effects. So, why are they not finding things like "greater protein turnover" , "lowered protein degradation/catabolism" and "non-lipid or water-weight gain" ???

it doesn't add up.

[bigdaddydrew123]

this is from wikpedia, note line about proteinThe actions of insulin on cells include:

Increased glycogen synthesis – insulin forces storage of glucose in liver (and muscle) cells in the form of glycogen; lowered levels of insulin cause liver cells to convert glycogen to glucose and excrete it into the blood. This is the clinical action of insulin which is directly useful in reducing high blood glucose levels as in diabetes.
Increased fatty acid synthesis – insulin forces fat cells to take in blood lipids which are converted to triglycerides; lack of insulin causes the reverse.
Increased esterification of fatty acids – forces adipose tissue to make fats (i.e., triglycerides) from fatty acid esters; lack of insulin causes the reverse.
Decreased proteinolysis – increasing the breakdown of protein.
Decreased lipolysis – forces reduction in conversion of fat cell lipid stores into blood fatty acids; lack of insulin causes the reverse.
Decreased gluconeogenesis – decreases production of glucose from non-sugar substrates, primarily in the liver (remember, the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver) ; lack of insulin causes glucose production from assorted substrates in the liver and elsewhere.
Increased amino acid uptake – forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.
Increased potassium uptake – forces cells to absorb serum potassium; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.

[bigdaddydrew123]

wasnt sure what proteinolysis meant so here is definition
Protein catabolism is the process by which proteins are broken down to their amino acids. This is also called proteolysis.
see if you guys can decipher above , seems to have an effeect on amino acid uptake but does more insulin equal more uptake.plus there have been lots of studies showing pwo carb / protein aids in recovery mainly because insulin spike from carbs increase protein synthesis. so in a way research has been done on insulins anabolic effects. i agree its a scary thing to try as you have to be very careful but theres alot of guys on here using it whats the verdict from users. maybe start a poll to see. would be interesting to see

[Rrrrolla]

My opinion of insulin is that it really does very little in the way of fat storage if humalog is used pwo. I'm currently using it at 15iu after my workout, not all workouts though, but pretty consistently when a bigger bodypart is being worked. I am up almost 10 pounds since Christmas, and I started humalog shortly after Christmas, so been on it about 2.5 months. I have been using gh at 2iu since Nov last year, so about 5 months. It's hard to tell how much is fat and how much is muscle, but I would say the ratio is close to 50/50. So if I can gain 5 pounds of muscle in a couple months, you can bet I am a happy camper. I look as lean as before, just a bit bigger, but I'm still sure there has to be SOME fat gained in there. I'm a fan, and IMO it does not make you fat if you do it right.

[Demonwolf]

wasnt sure what proteinolysis meant so here is definition
Protein catabolism is the process by which proteins are broken down to their amino acids. This is also called proteolysis.
see if you guys can decipher above , seems to have an effeect on amino acid uptake but does more insulin equal more uptake.plus there have been lots of studies showing pwo carb / protein aids in recovery mainly because insulin spike from carbs increase protein synthesis. so in a way research has been done on insulins anabolic effects. i agree its a scary thing to try as you have to be very careful but theres alot of guys on here using it whats the verdict from users. maybe start a poll to see. would be interesting to see

OK so i guess the part i need to understand is how this amino uptake is accelerated by insulin presence? Because aminos cross the cell membrane via a type of sodium channel.

[gustavo77]

I'm as in the dark as you friend. But let me ask this: Sinse insulin is cheap and easily and legally gotten why isn't the "Ronnie Coleman Phenomenon" happening to everyone who is using it?


Oh but it is bro...don;t forget that there is a synergy when taking GH and slin together. Slin alone will not yield those types of results but slin+GH will yield fantastic results in muscle gains...take a look at Phil Heath's progress over the past year, notice how Kevin Levrone used to "grow" into comp shape...and myself i have put over a quarter of an inch on my arms in the past 4 weeks with the use of GH+slin...

I do not claim to know the science behind why GH+slin+test works so well but the results speak for themselves.

[Rrrrolla]

What does your slin/gh protocal look like Gustavo?
I'm only using 2iu gh in the morning and 15 iu slin mon/wed/fri... approx, varies with what I train. I have also been using 100mcg igf with the slin some days. I feel that its working but I would like to try other protocals to see if they are better.

Thanks,
R

[gustavo77]

What does your slin/gh protocal look like Gustavo?
I'm only using 2iu gh in the morning and 15 iu slin mon/wed/fri... approx, varies with what I train. I have also been using 100mcg igf with the slin some days. I feel that its working but I would like to try other protocals to see if they are better.

Thanks,
R

Well i was injecting 10iu of slin and 6iu of GH post workout 4-5 times per week (after every weight training workout) but now i have changed it up since i about 15 weeks out for my first comp. My new protocol is 5iu slin/2iu GH in the morning before my first meal and 5iu slin/2iu GH/50mcg IGf-1 post workout...on my off days or cardio/abs days I only use 5iu slin and 2iu GH in the morning....i saw a protocol similar to this (minus the Gh and igf-1) on another site (thanks SS!) and decided to try it out.....of course i will be taking out the slin and igf-1 closer to the comp but for now it is a potent tool to fight cortisol at it's highest levels of the day, morning and post-training.

The reason for the lower doses of slin is of course cause my carb intake is fairly low...my carb/protein meals have no more than 50-60 grams of carbs total per meal.

I am hoping this protocol works well...i figure i will keep the slin in the mix until about 8 weeks out when i add in the morning session of cardio...

[Demonwolf]

Well i was injecting 10iu of slin and 6iu of GH post workout 4-5 times per week (after every weight training workout) but now i have changed it up since i about 15 weeks out for my first comp. My new protocol is 5iu slin/2iu GH in the morning before my first meal and 5iu slin/2iu GH/50mcg IGf-1 post workout...on my off days or cardio/abs days I only use 5iu slin and 2iu GH in the morning....i saw a protocol similar to this (minus the Gh and igf-1) on another site (thanks SS!) and decided to try it out.....of course i will be taking out the slin and igf-1 closer to the comp but for now it is a potent tool to fight cortisol at it's highest levels of the day, morning and post-training.

The reason for the lower doses of slin is of course cause my carb intake is fairly low...my carb/protein meals have no more than 50-60 grams of carbs total per meal.

I am hoping this protocol works well...i figure i will keep the slin in the mix until about 8 weeks out when i add in the morning session of cardio...


I hear you on that G, but have to disagree on levrone- I once took about 7 or 8 months off of training completely. I lost about 35-40lbs [not eating properly either, but still lots] In 1 month back with only a slight increase in food i regained 25lbs. In 3 months I had gained everything back plus an extra 5 lbs [I added test prop the last month]. Arnold was the same way; stay clean, stop training and lose tons of muscle. all ya have to do is get back to the gym ans step on the gas. Levrone could be 280-290 again in 5 months probably and 265 ripped in less than 1 yr.

Anyhow, what is your diet like while runnign those 3 peptides?
thanku

[gustavo77]

I hear you on that G, but have to disagree on levrone- I once took about 7 or 8 months off of training completely. I lost about 35-40lbs [not eating properly either, but still lots] In 1 month back with only a slight increase in food i regained 25lbs. In 3 months I had gained everything back plus an extra 5 lbs [I added test prop the last month]. Arnold was the same way; stay clean, stop training and lose tons of muscle. all ya have to do is get back to the gym ans step on the gas. Levrone could be 280-290 again in 5 months probably and 265 ripped in less than 1 yr.

Anyhow, what is your diet like while runnign those 3 peptides?
thanku

Ya i hear ya on Levrone, food and training are number one but i have heard from many people that he used a lot of slin... here is my current diet, it will change every week...first comp prep so i have no idea what is gonna work but a friend of mine is working with me on the diet:

Meal 1: (11AM)
5IU of Humalog, 2iu of GH
¾ Cup of white rice (uncooked measurement)
1 banana
Protein shake (60grams of whey/casein)

Meal 2: (2 PM)
10oz of chicken breast
3/4 cup of rice

Meal 3: (5 PM)
3/4 cup of white rice (uncooked measurement)
1 cup of green beans or broccoli
10 ounces (cooked) of chicken or sirloin steak

Meal 4: Pre-workout (6 PM)
50grams of whey protein (no carbs)

Training 6:30-8:30

Meal 5: Post-workout (8:00-8:30)
5iu of Humalog, 2iu of GH (weight training days only)
60 grams of whey/50 grams of Destrose (dextrose on weight training days only)

Meal 6: (9-9:30 PM)
3/4 cup (uncooked) of white rice
1 cup of green beans or broccoli
10 ounces of chicken, turkey, or x- lean red meat

Meal 7: (11-11:30 PM)
Salad:
10oz of chicken breast.
Leaf lettuce
1 tablespoon of olive oil, balsamic vinegar

Meal 8: (1 AM)
Whey /Casein shake 60g of protein
4g of Omega 3
_________________

[MassNutrition]

Well i was injecting 10iu of slin and 6iu of GH post workout 4-5 times per week (after every weight training workout) but now i have changed it up since i about 15 weeks out for my first comp. My new protocol is 5iu slin/2iu GH in the morning before my first meal and 5iu slin/2iu GH/50mcg IGf-1 post workout...on my off days or cardio/abs days I only use 5iu slin and 2iu GH in the morning....i saw a protocol similar to this (minus the Gh and igf-1) on another site (thanks SS!) and decided to try it out.....of course i will be taking out the slin and igf-1 closer to the comp but for now it is a potent tool to fight cortisol at it's highest levels of the day, morning and post-training.

The reason for the lower doses of slin is of course cause my carb intake is fairly low...my carb/protein meals have no more than 50-60 grams of carbs total per meal.

I am hoping this protocol works well...i figure i will keep the slin in the mix until about 8 weeks out when i add in the morning session of cardio...

Gus, I know you shoot your Humalog IM. For years I have shot mine subQ, and I'm craving to give it a go with IM shots with this next upcoming cycle. Words of advice for me... Is there a specific body part you choose? Do you rotate your Insulin shots? How much quicker does it kick in compared to subQ shots and how soon after (of before) should I consume my shake?

[gustavo77]

Gus, I know you shoot your Humalog IM. For years I have shot mine subQ, and I'm craving to give it a go with IM shots with this next upcoming cycle. Words of advice for me... Is there a specific body part you choose? Do you rotate your Insulin shots? How much quicker does it kick in compared to subQ shots and how soon after (of before) should I consume my shake?

I shoot whatever BP i will work or have worked that day...remember that i am shooting slin+GH in the morning and GH+slin+IGf post workout, not just slin so there is some synergy going on..to say the least...Some respected bros have told me that they have experienced site specific growth from this protocol.

Not sure how much quicker the slin kicks in IM but i would think that it kicks in a few minutes faster but also peaks much faster...i notice with IM shots i have never gone hypo after 3 hrs...knock on wood...that said while doing IM shots there is no waiting 2-5 minutes after the shot to get your carbs in get them in right away or better yet, some of them before your shot. I drink half my carbs moments before i even do the slin, that way when the slin hits the carbs are already there waiting..

[MassNutrition]

I shoot whatever BP i will work or have worked that day...remember that i am shooting slin+GH in the morning and GH+slin+IGf post workout, not just slin so there is some synergy going on...

Do you mix both the Slin and GH... or all 3 in the same syringe?

[gustavo77]

Do you mix both the Slin and GH... or all 3 in the same syringe?

I mix the GH+slin in the same pin as they both contain B water....the IGf-1 is pinned separately due to the AA...i rather not risk the high acidity of the AA destroying the delicate GH.

[MassNutrition]

the IGf-1 is pinned separately due to the AA...i rather not risk the high acidity of the AA destroying the delicate GH.

I figured as much. Thanks Bro...

[gustavo77]

I figured as much. Thanks Bro...

Anytime bud, anytime...

[Demonwolf]

For you guys adding to this thread, look up my thread on MD forums. There is a guy there named Narkosis, who is giving me very advanced answers on this. I'm sure you will find it interesting Gus.

[Demonwolf]

I drink half my carbs moments before i even do the slin, that way when the slin hits the carbs are already there waiting..

Sorry- drink what carbs? All i can see is rice?:(

[bigdaddydrew123]

Sorry- drink what carbs? All i can see is rice?:(
look at meal 5, your welcome gus:)

[gustavo77]

Thanks bigdaddy..lol. Ya i drink about half my carbs PWO before taking slin and i eat my banana first thing in the morning, moments before i do the slin/GH shot.

[gustavo77]

For you guys adding to this thread, look up my thread on MD forums. There is a guy there named Narkosis, who is giving me very advanced answers on this. I'm sure you will find it interesting Gus.

Thanks great info on that thread bro...

[Rrrrolla]

I did a shot yesterday after a chest workout. Consisted of 100mcg igf and 15iu humalog. I put it all in one pin with some ba water, and holy fuk, what a crazy pump I got in my chest for about an hour! This was the second time I tried this, the first time was in my quads I think so the pump brobably wasnt that noticeable. I put 50mcg and 7.5iu in each pec. What an odd experience, I didnt go hypo or anything, did my usual thing, 2 scoops of low fat weight gainer and one scoop of protien powder along with a bottle of gatorade. Took the shot and got the carbs into me about 10mins later. No issues with blood sugar, but that pump was unbelievable. Now I did take an no2 product before my workout, so that may be an issue here, but the pump was more intense after my shot than it was for my whole workout. I like it!!!!!!

[td1111]

What's the difference between injectin insulin and simply eating high GI carbs for a natural insulin release? Especially since you have to eat enough carbs along with your injected slin?

For those of us who can't get slin, is it a good idea eat large amounts of high GI foods PWO and along with our GH?

[Rrrrolla]

You can put alot more insulin in you witha bottle of slin then what your pancreas will release as a result of eating carbs. I think...

[bigdaddydrew123]

What's the difference between injectin insulin and simply eating high GI carbs for a natural insulin release? Especially since you have to eat enough carbs along with your injected slin?

For those of us who can't get slin, is it a good idea eat large amounts of high GI foods PWO and along with our GH?
theres a couple of really good articles on pwo nutrition on testoserone nation , worth a read . its called solving the pwo puzzle.