Cardio Discrepancies

[Primal]

Hello everyone, recently been going to the gym at a later hour in which only the late night regulars are around. As you would think, this leaves a lot of the equipment open for use when it previously would have had an hour wait line to it. For example, the prowler is open to use now! I tried it out a few nights ago but I was really sick so I didn't get a good experience out of it (mostly me wheezing and struggling to breathe)... But this brings up the point about different types of cardio and which ones are the most effective and unique for specific styles of training. So of course everyone knows there is steady state (which is still a bit controversial in accordance to maintaining muscle), HIIT, circuit styles and many more. How well do each of these work for maintaining muscle mass but increasing your cardiovascular heath?

My other question is what about cardio like boxing or MMA? Some people really like fighting for cardio (like Mike Rashid). Or what about the prowler? Is the prowler only able to be used for cardio? I don't see very many bodybuilders in my gym using it but that's just my gym. Any of you guys ever use different forms of cardio besides the stair master, treadmill or bike? Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention we have a Jacobs ladder too! For some reason, at my gym only the girls use it I don't really know why... Is it any good??

I'm really curious about this!

-Primal

[cog]

Hello everyone, recently been going to the gym at a later hour in which only the late night regulars are around. As you would think, this leaves a lot of the equipment open for use when it previously would have had an hour wait line to it. For example, the prowler is open to use now! I tried it out a few nights ago but I was really sick so I didn't get a good experience out of it (mostly me wheezing and struggling to breathe)... But this brings up the point about different types of cardio and which ones are the most effective and unique for specific styles of training. So of course everyone knows there is steady state (which is still a bit controversial in accordance to maintaining muscle), HIIT, circuit styles and many more. How well do each of these work for maintaining muscle mass but increasing your cardiovascular heath?

My other question is what about cardio like boxing or MMA? Some people really like fighting for cardio (like Mike Rashid). Or what about the prowler? Is the prowler only able to be used for cardio? I don't see very many bodybuilders in my gym using it but that's just my gym. Any of you guys ever use different forms of cardio besides the stair master, treadmill or bike? Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention we have a Jacobs ladder too! For some reason, at my gym only the girls use it I don't really know why... Is it any good??

I'm really curious about this!

-Primal

Lots of movement can be done in an explosive manner,cheat reverse fly for instance

[steve_d]

So of course everyone knows there is steady state (which is still a bit controversial in accordance to maintaining muscle), HIIT, circuit styles and many more. How well do each of these work for maintaining muscle mass but increasing your cardiovascular heath?

My other question is what about cardio like boxing or MMA? Some people really like fighting for cardio (like Mike Rashid). Or what about the prowler? Is the prowler only able to be used for cardio? I don't see very many bodybuilders in my gym using it but that's just my gym. Any of you guys ever use different forms of cardio besides the stair master, treadmill or bike? Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention we have a Jacobs ladder too! For some reason, at my gym only the girls use it I don't really know why... Is it any good??


-Primal

You're question seems to be about cardio and maintaining muscle. My thoughts are that it is difficult to completely burn up muscle when training and nutrition is perfect. With all those variables kept equal, you'd have a hard time noticing one cardio vs. another losing or maintaining muscle better than another (assuming the amount of cardio is kept reasonable).

For example, if one were to jog 30 minutes a day vs. bike 30 minutes a day, vs. jacobs ladder 30 minutes a day, vs. even walking on an incline 30 minutes a day, at the end of 6 months you would hardly notice a difference. This assumes that the cardio you do does not interfere with your ability to train effectively. That said, many would have a harder time recovering from a 30 min run vs. a 30 minute walk and still train just as hard. It really depends on what is more important, cardiovascular health or maintaining 95% of your muscle vs. less cardiovascular health by keeping 98% of your muscle. Each person will have a different answer as to what is optimal for them.

I have less cardiovascular health then when I was younger, but I have more muscle. If I wanted my endurance back, I'd have to sacrifice muscle. Walking or HIIT will not be as good for your cardiovascular health as some other forms of activity - although it may be better for a bodybuilder type program. During a contest prep, I for example don't rely on cardio at all to get lean. At least not in my last prep. I save that energy for where I need it. In the long run, its probably 'healthier' to do all sorts of activity, however it truly depends on both your long and short term goals.

[Praetorian]

The best form of cardio for fat loss and muscle preservation (bodybuilding) is low intensity steady state LISS ie moderate paced walking...preferably outdoors.

Why...

1. It is non interfering ie it does not cause a detrimental effect on training while in a calorie deficit
2. It improves recovery ability, just the opposite of regular steady state cardio or HIIT cardio
3. Its easy to do and you don't need anything but a good pair of shoes
4. It burns predominantly body fat while preserving muscle tissue
5. It does not raise cortisol levels like steady state cardio
6. It does not cause joint or muscular issues as can HIIT or SS

P

[Primal]

Awesome, thanks guys! Just out of curiosity here, is there a way where you can maintain muscle mass but ALSO improve your cardiovascular health at the same time? Can you do it if you are a newbie to the gym (always heard you can build muscle and lose fat if you just start out so anything is possible right)? Or what if you've done weight training for a few years? I'm not saying that I want to do it, I'm just asking because I'm curious... If you were eating a ton of food like being on a Micheal Phelps diet or would you still lose muscle anyways?

-Primal

[steve_d]

Of course! Although, it really depends how good your cardio is to begin with. For example, if your are doing 30 minutes of low intensity cardio a day 5-6 times a week, then bumping it up to higher intensity cardio is probably not going to effect your muscle mass too much if any. However, if you are already doing a couple hours a day, competing in endurance events, etc, then you probably can't increase it much more anyway. At that point one might ask if their is a way to increase muscle mass while maintaining endurance!

People like you or me, increasing cardiovascular health is best done by doing both moderate aerobic and moderate weight training (aside from diet). Although I guess that's more common sense than anything. Not all bodybuilders are in poor cardiovascular health - and it depends alot on genetics. You have to weigh the pros and cons of what you do. How much you enjoy weight training vs. how much you enjoy cardio (any kind). How much results you get from weight training vs. how much you get from cardio. Muscle mass is also well known to be a good indicator of a decrease in risk of heart disease. However, that doesn't mean the top 10 at the mr. olympia are better off than the average joe who enjoys their time in a competitive soccer league.

For about 99% of the popuplation, yes, doing more cardio will increase your cardiovascular health with absolutely no negative impact on muscle mass. The only ones that it will not are people at or above their genetic limits for muscle size who have put 100% of their efforts into getting larger without the need to improve their endurance. Plus cardiovascular health is vague. How would you measure it? peak VO2, bodyfat, how long you can run without getting out of breath, lung function, blood pressure, cholesterol levels? Most individuals can improve all those things without dropping muscle size, in fact, most will improve those things with an increase in muscle size. The answer to the question really depends on where you are at in your own fitness levels. And what you do will depend mostly on what you have time for, or how motivated you are to see those changes.


But is their a definitive answer to this? It's almost exactly like the study I posted earlier... what is better for increase health, aerobic, resistance, both? For someone who hasn't been to a gym, or is obese, what is the answer? likely both - but it is interesting to see that resistance is probably just as good as aerobics for many of the 'typically aerobic' health markers.

[Primal]

Oh ok thanks a lot Steve! I was always taught that VO2 max was the best indicator for cardiovascular health (both competitively and just overall). Was just a bit curious because I was considering taking a day to do cardio for 'fun' mostly on my rest days to get myself moving after being sedentary studying all day. I also really haven't done cardio in a really long time just because I've always wanted all of my calories consumed going to building muscle. I guess the best way is to just start slow and work up! Thanks again!

-Primal

[steve_d]

There is no one single best predictor of cardiovascular health. Besides cardiovascular health is more related to the heart as opposed to the lungs, although obviously the heart and lungs go hand in hand. VO2 might be a good predictor of lung function, and peak VO2 would go up if your general fitness goes up, but if one has just a so-so vo2, that doesn't mean other biomarkers will be horrible including more 'heart/vascular' things like CRP, LDL, etc. In that sense, one could have excellent cardiovascular health without doing any cardio other than weight training. Cardio might not even be necessary in terms of heart health. For most though, it can't hurt! Vo2 has been looked at to predict severe cardiovascular events. But generally we're talking about in people with heart failure, etc. Looking at healthy fit population, I think you'd be looking at a host of markers.

Diet can go a long way in improving all typical markers, and if you know what your doing, diet can pretty much control all those results for many people. Exercise can speed the process. But just like building muscle, it is near impossible to out-exercise a bad diet. Outside that, exercise has so many other benefits that can't be measured in a lab. Especially if you enjoy it. The key isn't to avoid it (if you want to do it) in order to gain another pound of muscle over 5 years.