IDFA Ottawa Classic - October 30th, 2010

[Andre Gregoire]

Contest prep dieting strategy is for sure a major factor.

I knew a guy who basically cheated throughout his diet until the final 5-6 weeks and then had to haul ass to make it. The following year he stuck to the diet, did the cardio as he should have been doing and low and behold he came in heavier and leaner than the previous year.

He'll tell you he gained 10lbs of stage weight and I'll tell him he's full of shit.

Dan Feduluk explains that he did just that in his interview on CBB. Weighed like 15lbs more or something like that in 1 year but he explained the reason.

Also, obviously the more advanced you are like Ron, the closer you are to your potential and the slower the gains are.

[BigGuns21]

"Technically" I'm the exception to Steve's argument. In 09 I stepped on stage at 175 and won the MW's, missed the overall by a 3-4 judge's split and this year I stepped on stage at 192 and placed 2nd in the LHW's, so 17lbs of stage muscle in one year. But did I gain 17lbs of stage muscle in one year? NO, it means I f'd my diet up in 09, ate into too much muscle, came in hard but flatter and smaller than I should have been. My offseason weight from '09to '10 went from 220 to 233, so less weight than I carried to the stage, mind you I was much tighter at 233 than I was at 220. A slight alteration to your diet can easily make a 3lb difference on stage, not necessarily mean you gained "x" lbs. That's where I think the numbers get skewed with some guys, you don't dial in right one year, then nail it the next and don't sacrifice as much muscle and you think you gained stage weight when you really didn't.

3-4lbs natural gains of legitimate stage weight per year, for a seasoned competitor would be the most I can see anyone doing, unless the offseason caloric intake was super low and you started eating like a man. 10-12lbs juiced gains would be the top end of what someone could put on and still hit the stage as conditioned or even more conditioned than the previous year.
I was still a little flat in my second show and should have been closer to 196, but this is why I've acquired the services of one Mr.Pakulski to take me into Provincials next June.

Mike is a buddy of mine and in my opinion is a phenomenal natural bb, especially when you take into consideration his heart condition. I can attest to the fact that this guy is 110% natural, right to stage day. I didn't get to see him last weekend, but the difference from May 09 to Nov 09 in his dryness was amazing. Tighter than many guys I know poppin diuretics. To continuously place top 3 in untested events against guys like me is something to be said. I'm gonna get him in with me for some back and leg workouts this offseason and murder him, lol.

[ironwill]

[QUOTE=BigGuns21;402818

3-4lbs natural gains of legitimate stage weight per year, for a seasoned competitor would be the most I can see anyone doing, unless the offseason caloric intake was super low and you started eating like a man. 10-12lbs juiced gains would be the top end of what someone could put on and still hit the stage as conditioned or even more conditioned than the previous year.
I was still a little flat in my second show and should have been closer to 196, but this is why I've acquired the services of one Mr.Pakulski to take me into Provincials next June.

[/QUOTE]
Agreed, and water manipulation etc...all make a huge diffence....
I am hiring an expert as well to bring me in, as i f'd up myself last yr in the last weeks alone, went kamikaze....lol..
I learnt my lesson, and now cant wait to work with my new coach....Just have to hire him...lol

[steve_d]

He placed top 3 in the middles, and got 5th in light heavies...Then went back to middles, and got third once again, but way, to depleted this time...Noticeably...

what I see hear is a guy who is hovering around 2 categories, and likely the only real difference from year to year is how much water he's got to lose by the time he hits weigh in. I weighed in at sudbury at 170. If I were like most guys, I would tell everyone, I am 170. But I was on stage at 162. The following week I weighed in at 162. Not alot of people are like me in wanting to know how much I weigh at all times. And alot of people carb up so much different than I do, and end up 10 pounds heavier on stage then they should have been. Not looking any better or worse, but with an extra 10 pounds of junk floating in their gut. Again, so much variability.

For me, my weight is my weight. I am dehydrated when I compete, and my stomach is as empty as it can get by the time I am on stage. So my weight iincreases are easy to know what it is. Its not water, food, fat, etc. When you come in consistently shredded each year, and you weigh yourself as often as I do, you start to see the pattern and know what is a real weight gain.

He'll tell you he gained 10lbs of stage weight and I'll tell him he's full of shit.

My point exactly. I overheard so many guys telling everyone at weigh-ins - oh...i put on 10 pounds this year. you look at them and its either 10 pounds of fat, or its 10 pounds of water they havent peed out yet. It's such a vain sport, that most guys like to brag about what they've done or what they will do. But like you say, they're kidding themselves and hiding behind what the truth is...

Dan Feduluk explains that he did just that in his interview on CBB. Weighed like 15lbs more or something like that in 1 year but he explained the reason.

Also, obviously the more advanced you are like Ron, the closer you are to your potential and the slower the gains are.

Exactly, when you screw up your prep 1 year, and get it right the next, its easy to say you gained alot. You aren't comparing apples to apples though. Which is what bigGuns explains...

3-4lbs natural gains of legitimate stage weight per year, for a seasoned competitor would be the most I can see anyone doing, unless the offseason caloric intake was super low and you started eating like a man. 10-12lbs juiced gains would be the top end of what someone could put on and still hit the stage as conditioned or even more conditioned than the previous year..

yep - 3 or 4 at MOST...yet people are disappointed when they only gained say 1. a gain is a gain in my mind. Which is why alot of people show up soft the year after they were ripped. They get a number in their head, and end up sacrificing getting lean because they think they gained 10 pounds of muscle. In the end they gained 2 muscle, 8 fat.

Again, when you first start out, the 3-4 might be 6-7. But then again, I honestly don't think ANYONE should be on stage in a BBing event if they are just starting out. Why start messing around with dieting all the time from the get go. Take some time to work out, and get at least some sort of base before you jump on stage. So by the time you are on stage, you aren't "new", and thus those crazy 6-7 pound first year gains are a thing of the past.

[natenator]

Mike is a buddy of mine and in my opinion is a phenomenal natural bb, especially when you take into consideration his heart condition. I can attest to the fact that this guy is 110% natural, right to stage day. I didn't get to see him last weekend, but the difference from May 09 to Nov 09 in his dryness was amazing. Tighter than many guys I know poppin diuretics. To continuously place top 3 in untested events against guys like me is something to be said. I'm gonna get him in with me for some back and leg workouts this offseason and murder him, lol.

100% agreed.

Mike rocks!

[ironwill]

Sigh, steved, well youre a stubborn one, and so am i....What if someone is 10 lbs heavier on stage, and his bis are 3/4 inch larger, and his quads 1 inch larger, waist the same size, chest 1.5 inches larger...Would you still say its water and fat if he looked like flies should be hanging around his eyelids because he is so shredded??
I dunno duder, just cant/wont agree with ya ....
You say that someone starting out shouldnt be on stage, i disagree...I think after a couple of yrs and you have decent genetics, you can and should be up there on stage...Thats like me saying if you are less than 175 lbs, you shouldnt be on stage....Doesnt make sense....
I think the couple of months of muscle building cessation is made up in the couple of months following a contest diet in the form of rebound.....
Ah well, ill do what i do, and ill keep telling anyone to giver shit and try and gain as much as possible, but will never limit myself or anyone else to believe they may only build 2-3 lbs in a yr.....When they are seasoned vets, then they will know that a few lbs is all to expect, but you have to work hard @ that level to maintain your previous gains, along with trying to gain even more...Then she gets tough!!!
I dont use hamburger as an analogy of stacking on a bodypart as some do, i use the analogy of flank steak, hamburger is aerated, and fat within, flank steak is muscle, and it doesnt look that big at 2-3 lbs if imagining it stacked on a body....Much smaller amnt than the same weight in burger...And if that was all i had to look forward to in a yr trng approximately 255 times that yr, equalling 400-500 hours, let alone resting, cooking, eating, and sacrificing, id pull the pin....Thankfully that is not the case here....My girl made more than that this yr, easily....
BUT, i do know it will slow quite a lot in the next few yrs, but for now, im diggin it....A lot!!!

[steve_d]

I am not trying to come off as being stubborn (although I am at times).

As for competing, yes, a couple of years of consistent training, that could be enough for someone. But this sport is for the most part something we all started in our teens. (as in training in the gym) And someone with 2 years under their belt implies they are just 18 or 19...I am not saying they shouldn't for any reason compete. But what I do see is how this sport isn't necessarily something the average person should get into. I regret competing at that age. I should have enjoyed my university years, not spent it dieting for shows!

I guess maybe what I am getting from all this is that if you are capable of putting on 10 pounds a year, for 2-3 years in a row, you are nowhere near 'seasoned'. But for those of us who have been working out consistently and properly for 5-10+ years, you should be at the point of being what I would call 'seasoned' as in, you've put on the big gains already. Regardless of how many shows you've done.

PS: As for the 10 pounds on stage thing, with bigger muscle bellies etc, I can't really comment. It's probably not water and fat in your example, but it could be something flawed in the previous show in terms of carbing up etc. It could be a number of things really. And yes, it could be 10 pounds of pure beef. But if it is, no way will it happen the year after and the year after that and so on. Law of diminishing returns.

I am just going be the examples I threw out there. And perhaps those are all example of 'seasoned vets'...And perhaps I can consider myself as a 'seasoned vet' even though I feel like a youngin at 30.

THe other part to all this, is that it would almost seem that the sport we're in is 'easy' so to speak, in that if you bust your ass hard enough, you can gain the amounts you speak of. Also, if what you are saying is correct, then I should really think about hanging up my trunks, since I am as hard of a gainer as it gets!

[ironwill]

I am a newb personally...Trng fairly serious for 4 yrs, always wanted to do more, but i was working on my career (first priority), and chasing girls,, Now my career is further than i anticipated, and i have a good girl in my life , and BBing is just good ol fun, until the last month or so anyway before hitting a stage...And it actually turned my life around, and saved me from a different life i once had, thats why i hold it in very high regard.., and did first show last yr..This last year has been consistent, and i will definitely find it harder every yr as i go, plus im 40 now, so wont get any easier on any front...I feel like im 22....lol
Good discussion...Not even any swearing...lol

[Ron Partlow]

Ron, cool to see you joining the discussion..., would you say you gained 6-8 lbs of muscle per yr in your first few years of competition?? Have you ever gained 6-8 lbs in a yr?? How much was the most gained in your career in one year??
I also think the way one diets down definitely makes a difference also, in the end result....Maybe some guys try a different diet technique etc, then they may lose more muscle in his prep, than if he did a different style, One can have cortisol, or thyroid differences during prep, that would make a big difference in final result, BUT, one may have actually built that extra muscle off season, and lost more due to different conditions...Thats my opinion, anyway...???

Ya, that happens too. Guys come in at a certain range for years and then they kinda figure out their body and all of a sudden they keep a whack of muscle that they have been giving up unknowingly, and they shock everyone. Some preps are just way better than others. Also, it's contest prep....shit happens and mistakes get made. The body doesn't always do what you plan or hope it will. I think everyone, even the very best, have bad shows where things just don't work well. Then there are preps that feel "too easy" and you almost feel ****-up-proof.

I'm a bit of a different case than most people I know. I had already trained for 7 years before I ever competed. I'm genetically pretty skinny I think, so my starting weight of 138, compared to the 265 when I started dieting in 1997 for my first show is already a huge jump.

[Bbuilder31]

I wanted to thank you all for your valid input - having such great sources of information is not only helpful but inspiring. Reading your own personal experiences only motivate me more to push hard, and work even harder. I may not make the gains I invision, but its the thought - mind over matter that counts. Its what keeps one driven to succeed. I don't get disappointed because improvement regardless how small is still better than it was.

Next year, I still plan on coming with a vengence, the goal to come in more full, and more dry is key to my success - I have a year. Miracles I don't expect, but determination is there. Again thanks for everything guys, I respect all of your comments, and appreciate you took the time to share them. More often than not, thing are left un-said.

thanks for continually reading

Mike