Low eGFR Values and Kidney Disease.

[juice555]

Sir Gus,

I have researched more about the eGFR as it pertains to people with higher than average muscle mass. Didnt come up with anything other than a general statement that the values may not be accurate.
I came upon some information today I found at numerous web sites, here is a sample: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/529930_5

The important bit is: "African American ethnicity was an independent predictor of higher GFR as on average, black persons have greater muscle mass than whites." It may be true you have a higher muscle mass than an average African American even, but at least you can get a little closer to your 'real' value if you calculate using this attribute.

Now to the calculations... There are a few formulas which calculate GFR using your measured creatinine level. Most formulas use a standarized body surface area of 1.73 squared. This works out for your average Joe, but not for the likes of us.

So, I have found another calculated method which takes into consideration your bodyweight. You can find the calculator here: http://www.kidney.org.uk/Medical-Inf...kidney-fn.html

So using your creatinine level of 132, and age of 35 (guessing), 114kg (guessing) I calculated a eGFR of 128. Now I see in some places they specify 'lean mass'. So lets guess you are 100kg lean mass. even so, thats 112 eGFR. You're lookin good by this calculation.

I leave it up to you to plug in the values. Also, lets now forget its *highly* likely your creatinine will subside when at least the Tren has cleared, and your body is at a more baseline state. The only worry I'd have is the 20 point eGFR drop. One might explain away the low values because of your muscle mass, but a 20 point drop isnt good. I'd say it this goes back up to around 'normal' for you... i wouldnt worry too much.

of course you will put abit more weight into a real doctors opinion i hope.

[juice555]

also it is possible that Trenbolone (artificially) increases your creatinine levels like anavar does (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Anavar).
however i read on the same site that exogenous testosterone actually lowers your creatinine. so there is no way to tell for certain since there arent any studies on this compound since its not approved in North america.

[gustavo77]

Thank you very much bro for sharing your research...this is some very positive info for me...according to that calculator my eGFR is 112.7, definitely in the normal range, to say the least. I will bring this up with my doctor immediately...not once was i asked how much i currently weighed and there were no questions or indications that body mass had any effect on eGFR readings...even though i asked. We really need to get a doc on CBB who knows his shit and can get us to educate our doctors a little...or a lot.. My doc is suppose to be a specialist in sport's medicine and is actually the doc for my town's OHL Hockey team....sad...

[juice555]

Thank you very much bro for sharing your research...this is some very positive info for me...according to that calculator my eGFR is 112.7, definitely in the normal range, to say the least. I will bring this up with my doctor immediately...not once was i asked how much i currently weighed and there were no questions or indications that body mass had any effect on eGFR readings...even though i asked. We really need to get a doc on CBB who knows his shit and can get us to educate our doctors a little...or a lot.. My doc is suppose to be a specialist in sport's medicine and is actually the doc for my town's OHL Hockey team....sad...

Ok, I just got back from my doctor. He had spoken with a nephrologist (kidney doctor) this week on my behalf. The specialist verified what I said above. Using the regular eGFR equation for those with above average muscle mass doesnt give an accurate kidney function representation. The nephrologist confirmed that using the cockcroft-gault equation that takes your bodyweight into consideration.

Our sudden drop in eGFR is a concern, but I am quite confident it is due to exogenous administered chemicals

So chill out abit and wait at least a few weeks until you get tested again. I am willing to bet your ultrasound looks good.

[gustavo77]

Ok, I just got back from my doctor. He had spoken with a nephrologist (kidney doctor) this week on my behalf. The specialist verified what I said above. Using the regular eGFR equation for those with above average muscle mass doesnt give an accurate kidney function representation. The nephrologist confirmed that using the cockcroft-gault equation that takes your bodyweight into consideration.

Our sudden drop in eGFR is a concern, but I am quite confident it is due to exogenous administered chemicals

So chill out abit and wait at least a few weeks until you get tested again. I am willing to bet your ultrasound looks good.

Thanks brother. Very assuring info.. I will keep this thread updated as there is some extremely valuable info for all of us that train hard and carry above average amounts of muscle mass.

[drdnj]

I know this is an old thread, but I figured I would add in my recent experience and blood work. I went to my family physician with high BP (160-190/90-110 mmHg). I became hypertensive in the past few months. I noticed foamy urine while preparing for a show a few years back and didn't do anything about it. My physician took bloods and urine and called me within 2 days to let me know I was in kidney failure (GFR <15 and Creatinine was 550). I saw a nephrologist within a day and have been put on beta blockers and a low protein diet (0.8g/kg body weight). Blood pressure is now normal and I am scheduled for renal biopsies on Nov. 5th.

Scared shitless!
Drdnj

[juice555]

Thats no good at all.
if your numbers are really that low life is going to be a rough go.
how do you feel? Any different than normal?
best be eating well, stay off the special vitamins and drink lots of fluids.
i wish you all the best. Keep us posted.

As far as the egfr mystery goes there are other more accurate methods of measuring gfr. A marker called cystatin-c is accurate and independant influencing factors that confuse the regular testing method; body weight, muscle mass, rage, age do not affect this test.
unforyunately in canada they know nothing of this test.
so yours truely is off to get a radionuclide 99mTc-DTPA scan.
i'll also get a conventional test done the day before to compare the two.

I know this is an old thread, but I figured I would add in my recent experience and blood work. I went to my family physician with high BP (160-190/90-110 mmHg). I became hypertensive in the past few months. I noticed foamy urine while preparing for a show a few years back and didn't do anything about it. My physician took bloods and urine and called me within 2 days to let me know I was in kidney failure (GFR <15 and Creatinine was 550). I saw a nephrologist within a day and have been put on beta blockers and a low protein diet (0.8g/kg body weight). Blood pressure is now normal and I am scheduled for renal biopsies on Nov. 5th.

Scared shitless!
Drdnj

[Praetorian]

The most important thing is to monitor blood pressure on or off a cycle. Tren has gotten a bad rap over this and this really is just an over simplification. The biggest culprit to most kidney issues is high blood pressure because it destroys the tubules in the kidneys slowly over time. Any aas will cause an increase in sodium retention and thus water so it is important to keep hydrated as well as to monitor blood pressure. Creatinine levels need to be interpreted correctly. Anyone engaging in resistance training will see an increase in creatinine whether they are using aas or not...it doesnt matter. The key here being even if you are not experiencing symptoms you still need to monitor blood pressure and get regular blood work. A ounce of prevention = a pound of cure.

DRdnj...stay positive and keep your chin up!

P

[drdnj]

Thanks guys... I actually feel miraculously good---which suggests that I am not in complete failure. I know that my kidneys aren't well, but since I feel decent I am assuming that my GFR/creatinine values are not as bad as they seem. I am following the prescribed diet to the book, not on any supplements, anabolics, or otherwise---I am anxious to see what my biopsies, urine and bloods say in a few weeks.

[juice555]

Thanks guys... I actually feel miraculously good---which suggests that I am not in complete failure. I know that my kidneys aren't well, but since I feel decent I am assuming that my GFR/creatinine values are not as bad as they seem. I am following the prescribed diet to the book, not on any supplements, anabolics, or otherwise---I am anxious to see what my biopsies, urine and bloods say in a few weeks.

Well, I finally got the best answer modern medical science can relay for non-invasive kidney testing. My iGFR (99mTc DPTA radionuclide) test shows 111 ml/min [corrected]. The next day I went for a conventional [creatinine] test. I finally calculated the eGFR based on a few popular methods. Here are the results:

Creatinine medical lab calculation: 61 ml/min eGFR
Mayo Clinic: 84 ml/min eGFR
Cockcroft-Gault: 103 ml/min eGFR
Radioisotope: 111 ml/min iGFR

The 'gold standard' isotope method turns out to be higher than the estimated calculation methods.
From reading, the C-G equation seems best for those who are outside of the 'normal' bodyweight.
The Mayo-clinic estimation was shown to be the most accurate from all the estimated methods (non-isotope) within +=1. This might be the case for 'normal' bodyweights. In this case C-G came out on top.

I was shocked of the difference between the 'real' GFR of 111 and the medical-lab-estimated of 61. I am no colossal BB @5.8" 220lbs. I'm surprised that there aren't larger individuals complaining of out-of-spec GFRs. If my numbers extrapolate to others [i don't assume], the competitive BBs should be in final stage kidney disease based on the conventional testing.

I wish drdnj all the best. I know what it's like to worry about possible failing organ health.
The moral