TT Eric diet log 2014

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Originally Posted by steve_d

Water rebound occurs even without eating carbs for most, if not all without the use of drugs to control the water rebound. This is the water rebound I am talking about. Anyone who's competed in back to back shows would likely have seen this. Even getting back on strict diet and cardio, its still not until a few days before they look as good as they were the week prior. What I mean by water rebound is that you are heavier, and have a blur over parts of your body (abs is common) then you were the week prior even without adding calories or carbs.

I've held water by simply dehydrating too much. Majority of this being simply aldosterone out of whack. Carbs can exagerate that effect because carbs hold water as well. The post show rebound that is common is this:

1. post show eat everything in sight.
2. 2 days later, continue this because food tastes so good.
3. 3 days later, holding onto 20 pounds of water that looks like fat
4. depressed, and continue to eat (although trying to be clean, but only lasting until noon).
5. by the time the water rebound is gone, that 20 pounds of water actually is 20 pounds of fat.

I'd be surprised if someone even on keto for months who switched their macros to 80% carbs, while keeping calories constant would have any water rebound. Eric... Would you like to be the test subject?! I'd be curious if he ate 2000 calories a day, 60% carbs, 20% fat, 20% protein, did half the cardio. My gut says he'd continue to lose. or stay within 1 pound.

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Yes dehydrating too much will result in water retention the next few days. This is the bodies reaction to dehydration it basically recirculates all water through the kidneys instead of releasing it because it believes you are not going to get anymore due to the severe dehydration it has gone through...ie high aldosterone release. Carb sensitivity rebound is a different thing altogether. With some as I said this is not a problem mostly because they are not carb sensitive what so ever..ie case in point Milos Sarcev. However with many after dieting on a low carb diet, keto include they must reintroduce carbs slowly or the resulting effect from insulin (insulin causes water retention) will result in the body retaining water. I can keep caloric intake identical post contest as it was pre contest and just vary the macros ie elevate carbs and lower fat and the resulting water retention is massive. Yes many go way overboard after a contest and that is not the same thing but I have no issue with control and as I said caloric intake is identical. Insulin sensitivity is what controls the amount of carbs one can utilize effectively.

P

Interesting. Seems I should be thankful to not be carb sensitive! I always thought I was because when dieting I can't really handle eating sugar. When Ange and I dieted last she'd make fun of me on a cheat day because she'd soak up the carbs and feel great all day, while I just felt like I was going into a sugar coma and felt like crap - acid reflux, heart racing, no energy, etc. For her it made the greatest workout, pumps for days, and feeling great. I only feel good after the first 100grams of carbs. Anything more and it just screws it up.

Same goes for carb up day before a show - I generally don't carb up well, and the math / glycogen just doesn't work - I feel like I don't benefit at all from carbs in the visual sense. And all I really need is a bowl of oats or 2 and thats about as much benefit as i'll get. Any more just bloats me, and doesn't 'fill me out' so to speak. It doesn't hurt me, but it just doesn't help.

What seems to work for me is keeping things steady, no fluctuations, no ups, no downs. In that sense, eating carbs all week prior to a show might be best... or throughout the entire prep.

In the end, I thought it was simply my sensitivity to carbs, but I am starting to think I am describing the reverse. My lack of sensitivity to carbs! IE - a carb simply doesn't do what it should to me! lol... Oh well, I think that could be thought of as a good thing. I don't have most of the negative side effects associated with carbs (ie carbs aren't my enemy).

I hear you Steve. It does appear you are very carb sensitive...but like most I think its the type of carbs that will result in making things worse..ie sugar. I dont do well with sugar either...bloated, feel like crap etc.

I also take longer to carb up so the traditional 2 days is not ideal...three days is better and using things like potato and sweet potato work better then rice.

P

I measured my arm and leg yesterday and today (double check), not really happy to say I've lost 1''+ of arm and 2'' of leg so far. My arms measure pretty much the same now then 2 years ago after keto, but I had 3/4'' more arms this year when I started the diet vs what I had 2 years ago before I started the diet. I feel like a shrimp.

Bench also went down further, I was really surprised to failed at using 105lbs, not even one alone, this is a weight I would normally do 7+ alone.

Eric

if you've lost 1 inch arms and 2 inch legs, but lost near 30 lbs in the process, consider it a success! The fat is taken from everywhere. Inches will be lost.

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Originally Posted by Praetorian

I hear you Steve. It does appear you are very carb sensitive...but like most I think its the type of carbs that will result in making things worse..ie sugar. I dont do well with sugar either...bloated, feel like crap etc.

I also take longer to carb up so the traditional 2 days is not ideal...three days is better and using things like potato and sweet potato work better then rice.

P

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I can handle sugar well if only a little. And it just depends on the week too. Sometimes a massive cheat (anything), and I feel like I can run a marathon the same day. Off season I can handle anything. Like I was saying before, I could eat a whole cake and feel just fine. But if I cut carbs for a while, I guess my body starts getting confused when they come back in lol. The good part is after all diets i've done, I always get lean - so really my choice of diet doesn't really matter, and in the end its whatever helps me feel at my best. And the best for me is moderation it seems. I don't balloon in the offseason, and its simply because I don't have hunger that would get me past 195 pounds. However once below 185, it is really obvious I am starving lol. The good thing is I don't need to be under 185 for too long, so contest prep is only tricky for about 2-3 weeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve_d

if you've lost 1 inch arms and 2 inch legs, but lost near 30 lbs in the process, consider it a success! The fat is taken from everywhere. Inches will be lost.

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The only thing I see that doesn't compute is that in 2012 at 173-175lbs my arms were pretty much the same then now but with 10 more lbs. They lost 1/2'' in 2012 while dieting vs now 1''.

Eric

Week #18 I'm not at 181.6lbs, so I've lost 1.0lbs. I was expecting more loss since I added one more fat free day. It seems my body is more resistant. I will add one more fat free day, so 5 days without fat. The next week it'll be preferable for me to move the re-feed meal to Saturday instead of Sunday. So it will be Monday to Friday no fat and re-feed on Saturday. Still 120min cardio /2.

Eric

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Originally Posted by TT Eric

The only thing I see that doesn't compute is that in 2012 at 173-175lbs my arms were pretty much the same then now but with 10 more lbs. They lost 1/2'' in 2012 while dieting vs now 1''.

Eric

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eventually you won't lose much more size on specific body parts. My arms at 195 are the same as when I am 175. My legs will lose 1/4 inch, my stomach will lose more, and my back as well. Depends where you store fat, not many store too much on their biceps when they are below 10%. most will still have a good bit to lose from their glutes / gut.

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Originally Posted by TT Eric

Week #18 I'm not at 181.6lbs, so I've lost 1.0lbs. I was expecting more loss since I added one more fat free day. It seems my body is more resistant. I will add one more fat free day, so 5 days without fat. The next week it'll be preferable for me to move the re-feed meal to Saturday instead of Sunday. So it will be Monday to Friday no fat and re-feed on Saturday. Still 120min cardio /2.

Eric

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I can't say I'd recommend having 5 days in a week without fat or carbs. Seems like your weekly calorie intake is getting pretty low / coupled with 2 hours cardio daily, plus trying to work out on top of that. Of course, no one said dieting was easy. But you've got more will power than me!

What would you would do in my situation ?

I'm running out of options beside raising activities and/or cutting calories.

In 2012 I've stopped at 4 no fat days, but I went up to 3hrs cardio + training.

I'm still far from being 'competition ready'. IMO I'm at 11%. Veins on abs seems still far away, hammies are far from striated, etc...

I really seems to me I've lost some muscle on the way (something that did not happened in 2012). 30lbs is about 15% of my starting weight, so if I was at 21%, I should be 6-7%.

Eric

In 1990 when I did my 1st diet, I use the same diet for 15 weeks, no changes whatsoever, no cardio and I leaned out very well, I would say easily. Maybe I lean better on a low fat diets vs keto, but to be fair, I need to consider that I'm way older and that I started with more fat then back then.

But low fat diets are not as healthy IMO and also it may work well, but I become more aggressive because of constant hungriness. Something I don't have at all with keto diet, not even a little bit. Only time I remember being pissed off is when I my lifts went down.

Eric

well it sounds like you'd need to lose 10 pounds to get competition ready, assuming most of it would come from fat. My thing is losing more gradual, and not for long. IE - not being too far out of shape when comes time to diet. That doesn't really answer your question now though. I would have to say if you are not suffering, and not moody, then you're still not really that far below your natural set point. What it sounds like is you were way above that setpoint when you started. Is that possible? I just think that from what you've said in the past, force feeding, etc... it may be that you were over what your body wanted to be. And no one feels good on a diet. If dieting and getting ripped was easy, everyone would do it! Sure, some diets may be easier, but if you are doing that much cardio and eating as little as you say, then eventually you'd get to a point where you'd just want more.

You said dieting on low fat makes you moody... but doesn't that contradict what your diet is? 5 no fat days in a week I would consider low fat! even during you're normalish food days, you're still eating on the low end of fat I'm sure.

You're doing something right if you're still losing and feeling ok. The only thing I don't agree with is any sort of large variance in the way you eat today vs. the way you eat in a month. I'm more of a 'think about it from a long term perspective'... Pick a look you want, a body fat % you want, and eat the way someone who would look like that eats. EX. if you want to be 5% bodyfat forever, then do what you're doing now. If you just want to look the way you do now, then just turn down the throttle a little and keep that diet. In a nutshell, I don't think any kind of yo yo variance in you're diet will get you to your goals any faster - and it's mostly unnecessary. Competitors yo-yo mostly because its not very sustainable to get to 5%. The competitors that get to 20% + in the offseason will either say they are doing it to put on more muscle, but the reality is some just have a harder time staying lean in the offseason. Genetics, will power, whatever. I have nothing against getting 'fatter' in the off season unless you are doing it forcing yourself to and feeling like shit in the process.

When I started the diet I felt that at 180lbs I would be ripped, then I've been sick, I did not eat much for 6 days, maybe 300 cal average per day for 6 days, this week I think I took a toll in the muscle department, so my goal moved to 175lbs. Then as my weight was going down, IMO it was not going accordingly to what I was seeing in the mirror (seems to me I was loosing muscle), so yes now I would have to move my goal weight to 170lbs if I was to compete.

And yes I was above my 'natural' set point since I was force feeding 6 meals per day for the 2 last years, some meals were welcome like breakfast, but many meals were done 'by the clock', like a plan that I respected very well.

Low fat diet made me moody in the past because I was on glucose fuel, now I'm on low fat & carbs diet but I'm still using ketone for fuel, this doesn't get me aggressive.

It's not that hard for me to diet because I'm dedicated and disciplined, but it doesn't mean it's a walk in the park all the time, yes I'm freaking hungry sometimes, I even dream I eat, I can smell food like a dog, I'm also tired to eat dry chicken, it's been more then 4 months now and I've dealt with freaking big and deep blisters, hip and articulations bothering me when I walk, etc.. but I can bite in the piece of wood harder and getting it done no problem, on will power.

I intend to stay leaner this year and surely this will help next year's diet. I intend to still eat by the clock as Ted recommend, but I will adjust quantities according to how I'm hungry at that time and adjust the fats/carbs according to how my weight fluctuate. Overall same levels of protein, but less overall fats and more carbs peri-workout. Going from 1.5L of raw milk per day to about half of that will also help I'm pretty sure.

For setpoint year round, I would like to be maybe a little leaner then I am now.

Eric

This is the actual diet (no fat days) in details:

Glass of water + 200mg caffeine + 1g L-tartate Carnitine

Morning walk

Meal #1: 45g of protein from whey Isolate+ 5g creatine +1g TMG + 1T grounded flax + 1T psyllium

Meal #2: ~180-200g non fatty fish baked + garlic powder and curcuma + sliced green onions + multivitamins + 2 caps of omega-3 fish oil + vit D

Meal #3: (pre workout) 45g of protein from whey Isolate + 1T flax + 1T psyllium + 5g beta alanine + 2-3g citrus malate + 200mg caffeine + 1g L-Tartare Carnitine

Intra workout: Water + 5g beta-alanine + 2-3g citrus malate + 1T lemon juice

Second walk

Meal #4: pwo shake: 45g protein from whey Isolate + 5g creatine + 1g TMG + 5g Cissus Quadrangularis + 1G vit C

Meal #5: 180-200g chicken breast (beuuurk)+ 1 cup green vegetable + multivitamins + 2 caps omega 3 fish oil + vit D

Meal #6: 45g protein from whey Isolate + 1T flax + 1T psyllium + ZMA

Eric

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Originally Posted by TT Eric

When I started the diet I felt that at 180lbs I would be ripped, then I've been sick, I did not eat much for 6 days, maybe 300 cal average per day for 6 days, this week I think I took a toll in the muscle department, so my goal moved to 175lbs. Then as my weight was going down, IMO it was not going accordingly to what I was seeing in the mirror (seems to me I was loosing muscle), so yes now I would have to move my goal weight to 170lbs if I was to compete.

And yes I was above my 'natural' set point since I was force feeding 6 meals per day for the 2 last years, some meals were welcome like breakfast, but many meals were done 'by the clock', like a plan that I respected very well.

Low fat diet made me moody in the past because I was on glucose fuel, Eric

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Sickness would only temporarily screw things up in terms of the gym, fatigue, water lost, glycogen, etc. In the grand scheme of things it was only a set back at that time and the net result would have been the same (in terms of body weight and body fat percentage). You were likely losing more fat internally, which may have made it look like while you were losing fat, nothing was visually changing in the mirror. People store fat in all different ways and it dictates more or less how much you'll lose before you look 'ripped'. Body fat calipers for example may put you at 10% but you need to lose more fat than the math works out to be. For some it works out perfect, and for others not so much. Point being, lots of individual variance. It's one of the reasons why so many people are shocked when they are 1 or even 2 weight classes lower than they thought they'd be before deciding to compete for the first time...

2 years of force feeding is enough time to start increasing your natural set point - which you don't want! It sounds like that isn't the case though. I'd never go above it again. Just as someone who is anorexic is under-eating, the reverse can be true. No matter how healthy the foods you are eating, over doing it is never a good thing.

I still can't agree with using glucose as fuel as the cause for moodyness. I would think there is more to it. When people diet for a show, there is an extra pressure mentally than just dieting for fun. I might get moody when I diet for a host of reasons - feeling behind, not pleased with the way an injury is going ... there is more of a focus on the show itself, which can be a big stress - especially for anyone who takes competing seriously. I've had easy days eating no carbs, and less food, and hard days doing much the same - the mood relates to other things going on. For us the biggest challenge is doing the diet with the responsibility as parents. a few days with no kids and all of a sudden no pressure, no problem, diet is a breeze. For others there are far worse things to deal with... everyone has something and it's especially true as we get older. When I dieted in university it was a joke, or through the summer between terms. All I had to do was a manual labor job, dieting was a breeze. All a diet does is exacerbate any of the the things you have going on already.

If one diets on 2000 calories (with 100g carbs), and is feeling moody, I'd be shocked to find them feeling better by simply removing the carbs and not replacing it with something else (ie dropping to 1600). A good experiment would be again, post diet, eat the same thing you are this week except add in 15g carbs per meal. As long as your being quite consistent with your carb intake, it shouldnt have any adverse effect on mood. 15g of carbs does not go very far as fuel! Being sub 10% and especially closer to 6-7% those 15g carbs during an intense contest prep will be like throwing a cup of water on some crops in a 1 month summer drought.


I am not pro carbs, or anti carbs. Most bodybuilders are eating far less carbs than ideal. I don't think 1 diet is better than the other really. Whatever is easiest to follow I suppose. For some it might be IIFYM, others might be keto, and so on. For you it may be Keto, but it might not. You can't compare the way you felt 20 years ago to now! Keep experiementing!

I was wondering how long do you start to cut the sodium before the day you compete ?

Eric

Soon it will be my last week, would it be a good idea to introduce a few carbs, like 50-75g peri workout (cyclic dextrin/vitargo) while continuing the same diet, all no fat days and cutting sodium of the last x days ? So I could appear less flat, a bit more dry for the last day, the day I'll get my LBM and BF% measured. I do not want to make a big load up in carbs and completely shut down fat loss, my reasoning is that 2-300 cal from carbs will slow down fat loss, but not kill it completely.

Eric

Ok decided to go ahead with that yesterday! Going for 100g of carbs peri-workout along with some hydrolized casein and 60g of carbs on off days. Probably will do HIIT on off days now that carbs are in along with the regular 120 min cardio. Will go with no fats in the diet till the end. Carbs are from cyclic dextrin. Just to be clear, they are not enjoyable carbs, they taste like sh!t. I will not add any other carbs then that. Will try to skip the re-feed meal since the carbs are in. The carbs will add about 2500 cal for the week, but the cheat meal is about that amount, so all in all I'll stay in a pretty similar calorie range. (Average of ~1700cal per day including traces).

The goal is to look better at the end of the diet and still loose fats on the way.

Will see what it does. Yes I like to experiment.

Eric

I truely respect your motivation, drive and dedication Eric. Inspiring. Wish i had that consistency
. Thankfully i have decent genetics lol

Thanks Jerry! It means a lot to me!

Eric

I don't cut sodium. I typically stop on friday morning, and by noon I decide its not a good idea, lol. However, I reduce it in the end from perhaps 6g a day, to 3g. water same, so its a big shift for me. Some people go to zero, and others dont cut at all. It depends what you can handle. Personally those tricks only backfire unless you know your body well.

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Originally Posted by TT Eric

I was wondering how long do you start to cut the sodium before the day you compete ?

Eric

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Typically sodium is moderately high through your entire prep as it should be...when on a low carb diet the bodies glycogen stores are lowered hence water retention is also lowered and you will flush more water on a daily basis. This flushing action leads to electrolyte losses and cramping can be an issue for some if adequate sodium is not present. Increase sodum as well as water intake while dieting and your body will maintain normal electrolyte levels on its own. 24 hours out from a contest ie Friday morning just eliminate any excess sodium. You dont have to go zero sodium and I would not recommend it as that tends to leave people very flat with the inability to carb load properly (sodium is necessary) and blood pressure drops too much leading to a loss in pump and vascularity. All you need to to is not add sodium to your foods as previously you were doing. Foods containing sodium ie eggs etc are fine to eat. If the person is enhanced I would see how they look Friday morning and make a decision through the day when to cut water and if a diuretic is necessary. If natural, water retention will be minimal and water is usually cut later such as 8pm and no pharm diuretic is used.

The next day ie saturday - contest day some sodium is added back in to the diet. Dont panic just yet...you will be very dry come Saturday morning so adding sodium will not cause water retention unless you are drinking a lot of water which you wont be. The added sodium will pumo up blood pressure and combined with your intake of carbs will lead to full, vascular muscles.

Water and sodium is the easy part and pretty standard...the more difficult part is the carbs...timing, types, amounts etc.

P

Nice! Thanks guys! Yes I'm keeping sodium moderately high year round (real salt).

I must say things change, at the end of the 80s, I dunno if it was the case for all the bodybuilders of this time, but the word in my circle was to avoid sodium (and spices) for the whole duration of the diet (3-4 months). The food was so drab I can tell you. Then in the early 90's word came out that we didn't need to cut down the sodium so early, the last week prior to the competition was enough.

And about water, again the word was to cut ALL water 3 days prior to the competition. On the 4th day, the day of the competition, you were so dehydrated that you had the impression your blood was so thick it was like mud and each heartbeat was harder.

Things changed for the best :s.

Eric

Never cut sodium or water more than 12-24 hours out...that is a disaster waiting to happen.

P

Week #19: (Yesterday) I was at 178.4lbs so a loss of 3.2lbs. I dunno if those 100g of carbs peri-workout passed right through or I used all of them properly but it doesn't seems I've retained them or much water since I've lost that weight. Yesterday I had a chicken + rice plate (viet restaurant) for cheat meal, nothing else, I wanted to bump the carb while staying low fat. I'm thinking of adding something like 50g carbs in the PWO meal (?), that would make 50g pre, 50g intra and 50g post and see if I retain some glycogen/water and be less flat. Only 5 day left though.

Eric

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Originally Posted by Praetorian

Never cut sodium or water more than 12-24 hours out...that is a disaster waiting to happen.

P

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Yes thanks. This was 25 years ago, I'm glad knowledge evolved since then, can't say we had it the easy way back then.

Eric

Hey guys, what do you do as warm-up before doing HIIT (sprinting) ?

Stretching or not ? Is doing a few runs before, increasing speed between each run until warm is enough ?

Was sprinting uphill and at the 1st run I got a cramp like pain in the leg, still there an hour later, kinda like if someone is pushing deep into my hamstring with his thumb.

Eric

Start with short half speed sprints....no more then 2-3 seconds..gradually work up to top speed...takes time. I would also not use too steep of a hill as it doesnt take much to tear a hamstring.

P

Thanks Ted! Not sure if my hill is too steep, I'll try to take a picture. Hamstring still hurting.

After a week with some carbs peri workouts, still no fat in the diet, I'm baffled that I barely feel a pump in the gym, less then usual, particularly the arm still to be numb to training, they are so freaking small actually it's scary, back in 2012. I'd thought the glycogen would give a better pump and some volume... Also the strength went down further, particularly on the presses, dropped the bench from 275 to 225lbs, and DBs from 120 to 100lbs.

Eric

Ok last day before going in vacation. I'm going to Mtl tonight to see my Biosignature guy so he can measure my BF% and LBM. IMO I'm around 10-11%, I think my LBM went down from ~165 into the ~157-160lbs area, but we will see tonight. I go see the same guy all the time, since he's very accurate and constant (he does that for a living since a long time), he also doesn't BS, ie let people think they have a lower BF% then they have, he usually read pretty high compare other Biosig guys.

Just took a few pics (had a re-feed meal yesterday, it helped been less flat):

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...ps430f8401.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...ps6b16e8cb.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...ps6de44e63.jpg

Eric

I'm back from the Biosig. I was 181lbs on his scale, 159.6lbs LBM and 11.8% BF.

Eric

Looking lean - I would trust the %. I once had my percent tested on one of those 10k $ fancy machines 1 week out and was 9%. You're probably not far off of that conditioning, and I'd say if you lost 5-7 more pounds + water you'd be able to hit the stage at a respectable condition. Getting to 6% is crazy, and no one actually gets to 3% as much as they think and say they are.
The insanely lean dudes are probably 5-6%, the really lean dudes are 6-8%, the decent competitor probably 8-10%. The average is probably over 10%. At a national level the majority who did their homework so to speak are probably 7-8% (and most of them claim under 5%)! Its nothing but a number, so it won't matter if they are right or wrong as long as they look good! I'm a numbers guy. but once I am under 10% I throw all numbers out the window except the number of lines I can count in the glutes.



Enjoy the vacation!

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Originally Posted by steve_d

Looking lean - I would trust the %. I once had my percent tested on one of those 10k $ fancy machines 1 week out and was 9%. You're probably not far off of that conditioning, and I'd say if you lost 5-7 more pounds + water you'd be able to hit the stage at a respectable condition. Getting to 6% is crazy, and no one actually gets to 3% as much as they think and say they are.
The insanely lean dudes are probably 5-6%, the really lean dudes are 6-8%, the decent competitor probably 8-10%. The average is probably over 10%. At a national level the majority who did their homework so to speak are probably 7-8% (and most of them claim under 5%)! Its nothing but a number, so it won't matter if they are right or wrong as long as they look good! I'm a numbers guy. but once I am under 10% I throw all numbers out the window except the number of lines I can count in the glutes.



Enjoy the vacation!

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Thanks! We think 100% the same on this Steve!

Personally I think I need to loose another 8-12lbs total to be 'stage ready'. TBH I'm disappointed to be at 12%, my goal was to be in the 8% area. Many BBers claim to be in the 8-10% area year round and if they hit 12% it's time to diet... also I often read that insulin sensibility is best to be under 10-12%. So I've failed at both my objective: being lean enough to be ready to compete if I was to and reach a BF% low enough to enjoy insulin sensibility and enhance LBM gain.

Would it be a good idea to resume the diet after the vacation ? I would have had a month of break, I could restart with keto with normal fat days + 60 min cardio and see from there. 2 months max and see if I can hit 8% (~-10lbs).

Eric

Eric I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers you received. At best even with Harpenden the gold standard for skin fold testing even if done perfectly will still be out +- 3-5%. Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other. This is the very reason I never use BF testing and it the the very reason many personal trainers and commercial gyms do....because the numbers are easily manipulated I am not saying your guy is doing that just that it happens and more frequently then it should.

Bar far the best measure of body fat is the mirror or a a second eye. Numbers aside when my client displays striated glutes I really couldnt care less what % BF he is because he will most likely be the leanest guy on stage. Also numbers tend to get in the way of results...what i mean is people get so concerned about the number and what it means that it starts to become nothing more than a numbers game and I dont see any progress physique wise.

When Poliquin says 10% in regards to insulin sensitivity I would estimate that number is a bit low...for most guys it would be closer to 12% but again you can take two guys at 12% and they may look different.

Also being natural you need to be realistic about how much actual lean muscle you can build year over year. The number will be quite low as in 1-2 lbs at best..expecting a 5-10lb increase is going to be disappointing.
I realize people like to see numbers etc and If I were to go that route I think i would use much more accurate methods but again its only a number and my main concern is what i or my client actually looks like.

What i tend to look for in a client is what is their worst body part in terms of conditioning ...ie glutes, hams, quads etc and when that body part is shredded I know the rest will take care of itself. The majority of people concentrate on their best body part and when they see veins etc in the arms or shoulders they think they are lean...except when they hit the stage and turn around their lower back, glutes and hams are all soft. Bodyfat measurement will not help you in this case because its an average over the entire body. Someones arms may be very lean yet they have soft hams and glutes...but the number says 8%.

Early in my BB career I used caliper testing and the more I learned the more I got away from it.

P

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Originally Posted by Praetorian

Eric I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers you received. At best even with Harpenden the gold standard for skin fold testing even if done perfectly will still be out +- 3-5%. Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other. This is the very reason I never use BF testing and it the the very reason many personal trainers and commercial gyms do....because the numbers are easily manipulated I am not saying your guy is doing that just that it happens and more frequently then it should.

Bar far the best measure of body fat is the mirror or a a second eye. Numbers aside when my client displays striated glutes I really couldnt care less what % BF he is because he will most likely be the leanest guy on stage. Also numbers tend to get in the way of results...what i mean is people get so concerned about the number and what it means that it starts to become nothing more than a numbers game and I dont see any progress physique wise.

When Poliquin says 10% in regards to insulin sensitivity I would estimate that number is a bit low...for most guys it would be closer to 12% but again you can take two guys at 12% and they may look different.

Also being natural you need to be realistic about how much actual lean muscle you can build year over year. The number will be quite low as in 1-2 lbs at best..expecting a 5-10lb increase is going to be disappointing.
I realize people like to see numbers etc and If I were to go that route I think i would use much more accurate methods but again its only a number and my main concern is what i or my client actually looks like.

What i tend to look for in a client is what is their worst body part in terms of conditioning ...ie glutes, hams, quads etc and when that body part is shredded I know the rest will take care of itself. The majority of people concentrate on their best body part and when they see veins etc in the arms or shoulders they think they are lean...except when they hit the stage and turn around their lower back, glutes and hams are all soft. Bodyfat measurement will not help you in this case because its an average over the entire body. Someones arms may be very lean yet they have soft hams and glutes...but the number says 8%.

Early in my BB career I used caliper testing and the more I learned the more I got away from it.

P

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As regards Poliquins 10% figure,this is the point where further fat loss becomes difficult?

The lower you get BF wise the more effort it takes to go beyond that point. As an example if you are say 20% BF then getting to 15% is not that difficult but going from 15% to 10% will require much more effort. The leaner you are the more your body will fight against you when trying to push even lower. I can easily get to within 10-12lbs of contest weight but those last few pounds even though they may be only 10-12 are the most difficult and will require a significant effort to achieve. Whether or not that line is 10% doesn't really matter because in a BB contest you are not judged by a BF % number you are judged on what you look like. Like I said before I have seen many a time two guys test out at the same BF % and yet look very different.

P

Thanks Ted, yes when I check myself in the mirror I tend to evaluate from the worst part. Also I've noticed from previous diet that I'm loosing visceral fat first and my skin stay thick pretty much all the way until most visceral fat is gone, then the epidermal fat goes away suddenly. My waist can become very very small, like now if I do a vacuum and put the tape very tight I'm at 26'', but when I was competing it went down to 24.5'' (I was wearing 28'' pants).

Is it a good idea to resume the diet after a one month break like I want to do ?

Eric

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Originally Posted by Praetorian

Eric I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers you received. At best even with Harpenden the gold standard for skin fold testing even if done perfectly will still be out +- 3-5%. Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other. This is the very reason I never use BF testing and it the the very reason many personal trainers and commercial gyms do....because the numbers are easily manipulated I am not saying your guy is doing that just that it happens and more frequently then it should.

Bar far the best measure of body fat is the mirror or a a second eye. Numbers aside when my client displays striated glutes I really couldnt care less what % BF he is because he will most likely be the leanest guy on stage. Also numbers tend to get in the way of results...what i mean is people get so concerned about the number and what it means that it starts to become nothing more than a numbers game and I dont see any progress physique wise.

When Poliquin says 10% in regards to insulin sensitivity I would estimate that number is a bit low...for most guys it would be closer to 12% but again you can take two guys at 12% and they may look different.

Also being natural you need to be realistic about how much actual lean muscle you can build year over year. The number will be quite low as in 1-2 lbs at best..expecting a 5-10lb increase is going to be disappointing.
I realize people like to see numbers etc and If I were to go that route I think i would use much more accurate methods but again its only a number and my main concern is what i or my client actually looks like.

What i tend to look for in a client is what is their worst body part in terms of conditioning ...ie glutes, hams, quads etc and when that body part is shredded I know the rest will take care of itself. The majority of people concentrate on their best body part and when they see veins etc in the arms or shoulders they think they are lean...except when they hit the stage and turn around their lower back, glutes and hams are all soft. Bodyfat measurement will not help you in this case because its an average over the entire body. Someones arms may be very lean yet they have soft hams and glutes...but the number says 8%.

Early in my BB career I used caliper testing and the more I learned the more I got away from it.

P

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All of this x 100. Focusing too much on numbers and optimizing things will only make things worse. Like Prae said, you can only hope for 1-2 pounds over a year at best. In fact, this number is actually not all that off even when you talk about enhanced guys (who have been at it for years already and are not 21 years old). The young guys can gain a lot for years natural or not. The guys who just start gear will gain alot too for a few years. But then after that, its basically not really common to see guys gain 5+ pounds of muscle year after year. Otherwise, everyone would all be 250 pounds on stage after a decade or 2. What is more common (natural or not) is bringing up weak body parts - slightly, perfecting posing, dieting smarter, getting leaner while maintaining fullness, getting leaner period, getting more confident, carbing up better, not ruining your physique in the final few days, etc.

People tend to put most of their focus in gaining muscle. While they may or may not be doing it wrong, in their minds even the most disciplined individuals put all that focus and see no real benefits over just keeping it simple. EX. bulking like crazy thinking they are going to gain so much mass in their off-season.

My advice is to try not to think about the numbers so much, and reaching targets for optimal insulin sensitivity and so on. At best you'll change that 1-2 pound gain into 1.1-2.2 pound gain over the year as opposed to just training hard and eating reasonable. So as far as continuing to diet after the vacation - you probably know what my thoughts are already - but I say a big no to it. Dieting any more than you already have already is going to get hard. Unless you are competing, its silly to get leaner on purpose consisdering what you have to do already to lose 1-2 pounds a week. It's time to start eating normal and getting your lifts up again.

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Originally Posted by Praetorian

Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other.

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Another good example was I went from 8.8% as measured by calipers to 8.9% by calipers in 4 weeks. (ie I went up). This was measured both in the morning same time, same conditions. The calipers would say I didn't change, but it was insanely obvious I was far leaner. I had gone from 8 weeks out to 4 weeks out at that point and at 8 weeks out I was lean, but 4 weeks out could have hit stage easy. Yet no change on caliper.

Same diet, I took caliper at night, then in morning - went from 8.5% at night to 6.2% in the morning. The caliper was measuring water too obviously, which for me varies tremendously when I get into the single digits between morning and night.

PS: the reason I took those measurements was to prove a point to the person taking the measurments as to how useless they are.