Tuna shakes and the versatility of tuna in general!

I have an idea. Your challenge for the day 5151: I once heard that the physical structure of Waxy Maize Starch helps to shuttle other nutrients from the intestines into the blood stream. Due to this you could hypothetically consume WMS with protein powder and creatine and so increase absorption (or perhaps decrease transit time from mouth to blood stream). Try to find an article or some credible source that talks about that.

There are a lot of reasons for eating frequently. Unless you live a sedentary lifestyle I can't think of any negatives. I'll look over some of the links but I don't think you have a very solid argument.

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Originally Posted by Ritch

Man is this ever getting complicated. I say **** all this text stuff. Let`s look at the anecdotal evidence. Bodybuilders who eat smaller and more frequent meals do better than the ones who eat 2 or 3 big meals. Why does it have to be more complex than that? We can take all kinds of litterature and try to interpertrate things to what we want them to be, but it`s just not so. The person who chooses to beleive 3 meals a day is good is missing out on the post workout phenomenon. So what, this person would eat breakfast, lunch, then train and have one more meal. End of caloric intake for the day? Please tell me you`re joking. I only wish it were this simple in fact. No amount of arguing will ever convince me this is ideal. At least 2 should be eaten after training. Lets say a guy trains after breakfast. There is a post workout meal, then say 2 hours later one more meal, some people even eat sooner. What about the rest of the day? I must be missing something here 5151 with your saying that 3 meals is all bodybuilers need.

This is in no way an attack at you 5151. I really think you`re a smart guy and asset to this forum. At times I almost think you bring up topics to see how people will bebate you with them. Same goes for the whole glycemic thing. Screw all this medical text crap. I don`t care for it. All that matters to me is real life experience and the difference it has made with me and the people I`ve helped with it. The timing of high glycemic carbs and keeping them low at other times has made for better natural and juiced bodybuilders and saying this dosen`t matter is just horse shit. So let`s cut the text book quotes saying otherwise. No it`s not me refusing to see enlightment it`s quotes of literature that has zero application to bodybuilders which we all are.

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I'm not saying 3 meals is better than 6. I just don't think there is any evidence that 6 is better than 3. I guess if I would have to make a recommendation(which I don't really like to do) I would say it really depends on the diet and how easy it is for people to stick to it. A 5000 calorie diet would probably be easiest spread over 6 meals. A woman cutting at 1500 would probably rather eat 3 meals. The guys fooling around with intermittent fasting are having some pretty interesting results.

Ha I think you may be onto me playing devils advocate.

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Originally Posted by Ritch

I just realized I responded in the tuna shake recipie thread and this response is off topic, it was when reading the back and forths between O Hurley and 5151 that made me respond as I did. But in regards to tuna shakes... Gross, just very, very, gross!

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Yeah I'm with you on that one.

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Originally Posted by o_Hurley

I have an idea. Your challenge for the day 5151: I once heard that the physical structure of Waxy Maize Starch helps to shuttle other nutrients from the intestines into the blood stream. Due to this you could hypothetically consume WMS with protein powder and creatine and so increase absorption (or perhaps decrease transit time from mouth to blood stream). Try to find an article or some credible source that talks about that.

There are a lot of reasons for eating frequently. Unless you live a sedentary lifestyle I can't think of any negatives. I'll look over some of the links but I don't think you have a very solid argument.

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Like I say I'm not sure I'm making an arguement for fewer meals I'm just not convinced there are inherent benefits in eating every 2-3 hours.

I'll look into the WMS thing. There is a difference between actual Vitagro(which just came out with v2 i believe) and just bulk WMS, correct? I've never really looked into it. I will throw out that creatine mono needs no help in absorption and I'm unsure why so many companies keep trying to improve something that already works. I'lll see what I can find on WMS though. Not having a job or going to school has really increased my google skills.

When you say there is no evidence that 6 meals is better than 3... What about the hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders who do this to gain superior results? Surely this is enough. Not until recently there was no proof of steroids building muscle mass. But it`s something that bodybuilders knew for decades, some things just don`t need proof, is that enought proof? Most likely these people when they first started out were eating 3 meals a day. Then as time goes and knowledge abroadens we eat more and more often. No, I haven`t talked to these hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders, but we all know this is the case. There are a few gifted ones who don`t need to follow these methods. That`s fine, but I guarantee you that if we were to conduct a worldwide survey on bodybuilders the end result would be what I just said. Why is this not done? Because there is nothing to gain and besides nobody fills out surveys to begin with.

I tried vitargo. Nothing to get a hard on over. One of the selling points is that it gets in the bloodstream faster than dextrose. I say so what. For the price it`s just not worth it. One advantage is that it won`t bloat you as much as dextrose does, but that effect is only temporary. The way I used maxy maize was some during my training with some gartorade about 1/1 ratio total 70 grams of carbs with 15 grams or so of BCAA. Then after training the same ratio but 100 grams total of carbs with creatine and about 15 grams of BCAA. I would have tried this stuff without the gatorade but it tastes like you`re drinking a candle that`s been powdered down, hence the name waxy maize. I`m interested to see what will become of this supplement.

I bet you the supplement companies are just pissed off that a product like creatine came and worked so well from the very start. Not knowing that anything they could ever think of would make it better. I bet you if they knew this they would have purposely made a version that would not work as good as the one they first came out with. This way they could have made the improvements with the product and truely putting better versions (at least 5 to cash in...) on the market to arrive what we have today being the best creatine product which was the very first: monohydrate.

they eat 6 meals because they are taking in 7000 calories....or more

http://www.humankinetics.com/eJourna.../pdfs/5642.pdf (This is a really good article. Did you read through the whole thing?)

"Rapidly absorbed amino acids despite stimulating greater protein synthesis, also stimulate greater amino acid oxidation, and hence results in a lower net protein gain, than slowly absorbed protein (54). Leucine balance, a measurable endpoint for protein balance, is indicated in Figure 1, which shows slowly absorbed amino acids (~ 6 to 7 g/h), such as CAS and 2.3 g of WP repeatedly taken orally every 20 min (RPT-WP), provide significantly better protein balance than rapidly absorbed amino acids (39, 54)".

So I'm going to blow the whole meal frequency thing wide open right now. Conveniently I can do it with the article you posted 5151. So they used Leucine balance as a measure of protein balance. Leucine is the most abundant AA found in skeletal muscle so it makes sense. From what they wrote ideally a person would eat a 4:1 ratio of casein protien to whey protein every 20 minutes. Yielding what looks to be a maximum protein absorption rate of 5-8g/hr. They actually found that casein protein mixed with whey protein (4:1) is significantly more effective than ingesting amino acids or just whey protein. So if you eat a large meal with a lot of protein some of it ends up in your poop. Also, a lot of the protein you do absorb (since you don't need/can't utilize a large amount at any one time) ends up being converted to sugar via gluconeogenesis. This starts happening shortly after the amino acids enter the blood stream. Or, if protein is consumed with a large amount of carbohydrates. (like in a large infrequent meal). The amino acids are instead used to form triglycerides and you get fat storage).

So, for a bodybuilder. Eating frequently. Especially protein. Yields optimal Leucine balance, a decrease in conversion of amino acids to glucose or triglycerides. Also there is a thermic effect that is particularly associated with protein breakdown. This helps you stay lean. Eating meals frequently is just fueling the furnace, the evidence is everywhere.

Are there any protein supplements on the market right now that have a roughly 4:1 ratio of casein to whey. Really the ratio itself doesn't matter much. I'm just curious if there are any predominantly casein protein products that also have a smaller amount of whey protein.

Hmmm, would be easy enough to order on http://www.trueprotein.com/ Anyone else that wants to give it a try feel free to thank me by using my discount code: ONH179. Lol, now I feel like a salesman.

Casein is not egg protein, it's the other part of milk. A 4:1 ratio of casein to whey would be Milk Protein. TP has a milk protein isolate that I have bought and use as my regular protein. Shit it's almost like nature knew what it was doing. Thanks for the code!

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Originally Posted by 5151

Casein is not egg protein, it's the other part of milk. A 4:1 ratio of casein to whey would be Milk Protein. TP has a milk protein isolate that I have bought and use as my regular protein. Shit it's almost like nature knew what it was doing. Thanks for the code!

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Lol, yeah. That was a total brain fart. I'll edit my posts.

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Originally Posted by o_Hurley

http://www.humankinetics.com/eJourna.../pdfs/5642.pdf (This is a really good article. Did you read through the whole thing?)
yup
"Rapidly absorbed amino acids despite stimulating greater protein synthesis, also stimulate greater amino acid oxidation, and hence results in a lower net protein gain, than slowly absorbed protein (54). Leucine balance, a measurable endpoint for protein balance, is indicated in Figure 1, which shows slowly absorbed amino acids (~ 6 to 7 g/h), such as CAS and 2.3 g of WP repeatedly taken orally every 20 min (RPT-WP), provide significantly better protein balance than rapidly absorbed amino acids (39, 54)".
Basically saying that ffaa may be useful for a quick spike and in certain situations but real food always kicks their ass.
So I'm going to blow the whole meal frequency thing wide open right now. Conveniently I can do it with the article you posted 5151. So they used Leucine balance as a measure of protein balance. Leucine is the most abundant AA found in skeletal muscle so it makes sense. From what they wrote ideally a person would eat a 4:1 ratio of casein protien to whey protein every 20 minutes. Yielding what looks to be a maximum protein absorption rate of 5-8g/hr. They actually found that casein protein mixed with whey protein (4:1) is significantly more effective than ingesting amino acids or just whey protein. So if you eat a large meal with a lot of protein some of it ends up in your poop. Also, a lot of the protein you do absorb (since you don't need/can't utilize a large amount at any one time) ends up being converted to sugar via gluconeogenesis. This starts happening shortly after the amino acids enter the blood stream. Or, if protein is consumed with a large amount of carbohydrates. (like in a large infrequent meal). The amino acids are instead used to form triglycerides and you get fat storage).
I think I understand what your saying but my arguement is that just because a maximal absorption rate of 5-8g/hr is found doesn't mean that's all that is absorbed. It just means the rest of the protein hangs out in your gut until it can be digested. 60g in one meal will just take longer to fully digest than 20g in another meal meaning the next meal doesn't have to come as soon. Looking at the absorption rates of pretty much anything we consider quality protein sources have digestion rates of over 90% meaning it all gets digested. I think the most important of this article was the fact that most of these high protein intakes we see are retarded as we are just using them for energy anyway.
So, for a bodybuilder. Eating frequently. Especially protein. Yields optimal Leucine balance, a decrease in conversion of amino acids to glucose or triglycerides. Also there is a thermic effect that is particularly associated with protein breakdown. This helps you stay lean. Eating meals frequently is just fueling the furnace, the evidence is everywhere.
Eating large amounts of protein yields optimal leucine/protein balance. The thermic effect of protein is the same regardless of how many meals. Protein has the largest thermic effect which is why recommending it to any first time dieter who only eats a piece of meat with dinner is a great idea. If you ingest 100g in a meal or 100g in 10 meal the thermic effect will be the same.
Seriously, read that article, the whole thing. It's excellent. I learned something from it. Eggs (casein) are the way to go. Possibly the perfect bodybuilder food (aside from the gas), you even have the colesterol which acts as a precursor to testosterone.

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Bolded.

Here's an abstract. I haven't read the full text:

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Bellisle F et. al. Meal frequency and energy balance. Br J Nutr. (1997) 77 (Suppl 1):S57-70.
Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people’s habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a ‘nibbling’ meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship.

However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies

We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure.

Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.

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Originally Posted by o_Hurley

Lol, yeah. That was a total brain fart. I'll edit my posts.

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Haha yeah that's what I figured. But seriously check out the MPI on TP. It's one of the cheaper protein on the site and offers pretty much the ideal ratio according to the paper.