Some nice pics.
Some nice pics.
Conditioning only wins you points if your physique is equal to your fellow competitor here in Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Summers
Size is the trump card. If you are noticelble bigger in the right places than your competitor, then it doesn't matter what your conditioning is. Rob Belise found that out in 2006 when Darrin Tomy won the Masters and the procard which nobody felt he deserved in light of his condition he was in.
It is what it is though. This is bodybuilding not dieting.
In the States Symetry and aethetics are also taken more into acount as there is also a symetry round that is judged right! There you will win points if you have a prettier physique than your opponent, even if he is bigger than you. That doesn't happen all too often up here.
Here its all bullshit. No symetry round, and just prejudging compulories are judged. It dilutes the sport. Why even bother having a finals???? Its just stupid, hand the trophies out in the morning and be done with it.
I am in agreement with the others from my experience competing in the states I much prefer it there than here.
Congratulations to Tod Payette. He placed third and in my opinion, from what I know he has A LOT of room to grow and get bigger this offseason.
He will be one of the favorites going into next years competition for the masters overall and the procard.
And let's not forget he just came from a bad car wreck. Hats off to you Todd for going through with the show and placing in the top 3.
A word to competitors that are reading here. If you want to use this site as a self-promoting tool, I encourage and welcome you to do so. I can do some but like to focus my energy on contributing members.
The viewership numbers for CBB are rather large and I'd like to use it to help the bb/fitness community.
Start a log/journal, post pictures, thoughts etc. Whatever you're comfortable with.
The judging was bad not only in the men's category but the women's as well. In bodybuilding there are specific criteria to follow...and yes I do agree size is the trump card...HOWEVER and you'll notice that's a big however....size is the trump card if its pealed size...not fat size. What is the point...I could have walked on stage at 245lbs and stopped my diet 6 weeks out....no problem there....so do i get rewarded with a a better placing for doing half the work? Chris won because he was big and because he was lean....I have no problem with that...he deserved it. Dan was an easy top five...shape, cuts, size...its called the PACKAGE....that's bodybuilding....no we shouldn't have guys winning just because they are lean or just because they have nice shape...you need to have it all...and you should be judged on ALL criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Summers
As bodybuilders we work way too hard to be judged so inconsistently and without regard to the criteria specified.
I will compete again and I will bring a much improved package...bigger, harder, still striated glutes....but it will be at the North Americans.
P
OK...everyone is going to hate on me for this post but I have had enough of the whining over a difference in one or two placings. I came 7th in my class, according to the scores I easily won the second call out and I could be posting on here about unfair it all is and that how could they know I was 7th when I wasn't even compared to the top 6 - but I won't. The judging is subjective in our sports, we all know that. We all tell others to compete for their own self improvement and satisfaction. Would finishing a place or 2 higher really have made a difference?
I don't want readers of this board to think this was a shitty, poorly judged show. The caliber of all the athletes was suburb. Let's give the organization a bit of a break.
I watched the masters show...the top 3 were bang on for sure.
Opinions are such, everyone has one, and a good right to post them up.....
Why was the caliber of athletes suburb????
You mean superb??
No need to call an opinion whining....IMO...
yes, I think she meant superb...I had Prae in 4th. Obviously that shows that the quality of athletes are superb. Prae looked awesome. No one would ever deny that. Just so happened that 3 looked even awesomer.
In my opinion, as I've said before on this board, is that there are 3 parts to the equation for ranking someone. Size, shape/symmetry, and conditioning. No one of those outweigh the other, and none trumps the other. Its simple, if two people are equal in shape and cuts, the bigger one wins. If two people are ties in size and shape, the rippeder one wins. Etc etc. Everyone knows that - nothing new. However, what makes it tough is when 1 has better shape, the other has better symmetry, and both are tied in size. Then who wins? Subjective. Then you have a case where 1 guy is bigger, but is not quite as ripped OR as symmetrical (1/3 yet still wins) - well, obviously if they are simply way bigger bit only a little off in the shape and cuts, then they have a better overall package. Thats how I lost the overall in sudbury. Dude outweighed me by 70 pounds. Sure I was more cut, and better shape, but that doesn't necessarily win a show.
I can't go into complete detail about why I think the judging was at least almost bang on in that class, but in Prae's case, I had him ahead of Leon Eastman which would have landed him in 4th. I don't like Leon's shape, and perhaps shape is something I would put my own bias towarrds when I would try to rank people. Looks as though perhaps size was the big factor in the majority of the judges on that panel.
As prae pointed out, he probably could have stopped dieting at 6 weeks out and placed the same. (Key word probably). But no one wants to take that chance. Come in the way you want to look.
Ok, maybe whining was a strong word. I take it back. The point of my post was for people reading this thread who weren't at the show to not get the idea that it was a poorly judged show. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and every judge is also entitled to their opinion...that is why they have 7 judges - hopefully the biases balance out to get the winner(s) - which I think they got.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironwill
Bodybuilding is judged on different criteria then figure. When it comes to bodybuilding its about consistency and in this show in both the men's and women's classes there was none...so yes for those who were not at the show the bodybuilding was very poorly judged...as for the fitness and figure it may have been spot on but I cannot comment on it because I did not see the results. This is not only my opinion it comes from many who watched the prejudging including provincial level qualified judges, IFBB Professional Bodybuilders, other competitors, promoters, and vendors.Quote:
Originally Posted by ange_d
I am the last guy to complain when it comes to placings....Ive competed for 14 years and haven't even voiced my opinion until now...but I just couldn't sit idly by when things get so far out of hand like this. I know every show someone got robbed blah blah blah...we have all heard it a million times...that's why I tend to leave things be and just work harder and improve. The problem here was that no matter what I would have done nothing would have changed...because they did not follow the criteria necessary where I did. That is the only reason I spoke up...I couldn't care less if i was 4th or 5th who gives a shit...I went to win and get a Pro card...unfortunately there is only one card and Chris was the better bodybuilder that night and I applaud him for it..well done.
P
After X number of hours judging figure/fitness/bikini (let's face it, it was a HUGE show), it seemed to me that the judges had a hard time switching to bodybuilding and ended up going for abs and shoulders (and by default, size) more than conditioning. I would be so curious to see what would happen if we brought in a brand new panel of judges. IF the criteria is tight then it would reveal a similar placing. Regardless, you have two choices: give up and throw in the towel or put everything into coming bigger, better, harder and leaner next year. We choose the latter - and it will be at the NA's ;-)
I'm proud of Prae - he looked even 100 times better than his last competition and next year he will look even 100 times better than this year. Not to mention, six months ago he tore his bicep tendon off the bone and had to have surgery, rehabbed it and went on to compete on a national stage. Can't keep this baby down ;-) :hu
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpioChiq
GOOD POST. 100% agree about size of shows vs. judging becoming tedious. After 8 hours, writing down numbers can become boring. Although, the sad fact is that if that is true (which it likely is), they should not be judges. Judging is almost as fun as competing, and I think they should take pride in getting things as good as they possibly can. And that is to make sure each person gets the right place (not just the top 2). In my opinion, the judging was not as perfect as local/smaller shows because of 1 reason alone - the size of the show. They didn't have time to get it right. they had to go by initial impressions alone, and if you weren't in the call out, you weren't placing in those top spots even if deserved. This happened in a number of classes I watched. Where the top guy/girl of the 2nd call out was better than the lowest in the first call out. But with the size of the show, this was likely the only way they could do it.
I still have my opinions about judging in general and I really think I could implement a system that would eliminate bias almost completely, and give better results overall (the shows would take only slightly longer which is why they would not ever implement it).
It's easy as a judge to be swayed by where they position the athletes as well as the call outs...there should be no patterns. The judges should not have the slightest clue about what the other judges are thinking. It matters more than you'd think. Especially when things go by so quickly.
Also, good mentality, use it to fuel you for the next time. make it so that it isn't even a question next time.
Just wanted to say congrats to all of you who where at nationals, I had the pleasure of going with 69C and got a chance to meet a few of you and but a face to the name . You all should be proud of yourselves for all the hard work and effort you put into this .
I think you all rocked and did awesome !!
I'm gonna chime in for the Bikini Short line-up, since I may be the only Bikini Competitor commenting on this thread.
I have one major disagreement with the Finals show for the Bikini competitors...they only had the top 3 come out instead of the top 5 like they did for every other category in the show. The standard 5 out for the night show, especially for Bikini, where overall presentation scoring is major in the category, should have happened. But it didn't and I don't know why they chose to do this only for Bikini?
I would have loved to come back out with the top 5. I placed 4th and my friends and family who came to watch the finals felt $50 wasn't worth it. I mean, usually if you're in first call outs only, then you pretty much sure that you'll be in the top 5 at night show finals...but apparently not for, and ONLY not for, the Bikini classes?!!?
Congrats to all the New Pros! :) NA's are next this weekend ;)
Personally I'm more annoyed that they've lumped masters bodybuilding with fitness,figure, and bikin. I'm sorry if it seems rude but if I'm going to the nationals for bodybuilding I want to hang out with the bodybuilders if I ever get to go either as a spectator or god forbid a competitor.
A judging panel that was focused on bodybuilding rather than fitness/figure/bikini would be an added bonus but that's just crazy talk.
I agree - two completely separate judging panels, or ideally two separate events. Fitness/figure/bikini is definitely a large enough show for it to run solo.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiramisu
From the pics I saw, Leon Eastman didn't deserve to make the top 5. He had visable abdominal fat that you could hold between your thumb and forefinger quite easily. Anybody who comes to a national show that out of shape should not be rewarded in anyway by the judges whatsoever.
100% agree...I could have been in the same shape and walked on at 245lbs...now that would have been fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner#22
Good luck this weekend at the NA brother!
P
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpioChiq
Totally Agree with you on this!! Also, I wrote this in response to someone on another thread here that I wanted to share regarding my thoughts on Bikini judging in the CBBF/IFBB
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_d
that is the problem with a subjective sport, it is almost impossible for judges to all come to a consensus of what is best. In figure, fitness, bikini, I don't think there will ever be a set in stone judging criteria. One judge will always favor 1 thing compared to another. Not only that, it is a sport where 1 body type may look better lean, while another may look better softer. Depending on how you hold your fat, how much muscle you carry, etc etc. The girls need to simply come in the way they want to look, not the way they think the judge may favor - because you never know which judge will show up, and you'll never know what will be "favored"...Besides, most will look best leaner. The problem is coming in to dry (ie dehydrted, not carbed up properly). In fitness, figure, and bikini, you can be shredded yet learn to stand properly to not show that extreme muscularity. Some of the pros could hit a bodybuilding pose and blow your minds, yet they stand a certain way and look soft and feminine.
So True and well said. I trained and competed in figure (since 2002-winning 2nd at the Ontario's in 2003 and other regional top 3 placings since) long before I switched and started competing in Bikini at the Ontario Naturals '09 to placing 2nd at National Naturals, Laval 2010...
I agree that the basis on the Bikini Category judging criteria should still stem from a physique standpoint first (much to the same aesthetically/xfactor - athletic, with full sculpted athletic muscle and tight yet softer (not ripped) skin texture. Second would be the facial beauty and overall presentation and confidence on stage. I think that its important to let the Bikini class have good stage time to show their personality on stage. Their Bikini walk/presentation is like their routine, and it usually only takes 45 secs to let each girl do a T-Walk to show off their physique in their own way, just as other athletes get routine time. 45sec is fair in comparison, I believe.
This is how I envision judging should be for Bikini.
The national panel is basically similar year to year, and basically the same panel judges the bodybuilding nationals as the figure nationals. To qualify to be a national level judge, you have to test at national level. And since figure is so new, the national level judges have basically gotten to be national level judges by testing the bodybuilding shows of the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpioChiq
Obviously that is flawed in many ways - but it hurts the figure girls more than the bodybuilders since at least most of the panel are qualified based on proving themselves as good bodybuilding judges. There should be a seperate figure/fitness/bikini vs. bodybuilding panel for sure, at that level at least. But then there would still be the problem at local/procincial shows.
It's too bad - although it is what it is. I am quite sure they will be seperate events next year, but still, the national level judges for figure should strictly be high level figure/bikini/fitness athletes, or at least individuals who really have an eye for it and who follow the sport religiously. Same idea with bodybuilding judges, however I think that is basically true of most judges (ie, they follow bodybuilding religiously)
[QUOTE=fitnessbyzara;396463]QUOTE]
Saw you on stage, you looked great! Really sux about how they did the night show without giving the top 5 like they did in the other categories! Wow! I wasn't aware they did that - a shame to say the least! Bodybuilding top 5 got to do their routine, figure top 5 were even judged for a round 3. Fitness got their routines done as well...Bikini should have been just the same.
The night show was such an organizational mess with the awards, they probably forgot to call all 5 out for Bikini.
Zara, you rocked the morning presentation! You could do seminars for that walk ;)
Steve you've made some good points about the judging for sure. In a total unbiased world you probably would have won overall in Sudbury, but Kip being a super heavy was so imposing on stage he basically commanded attention, but was clearly there for Provincial qualifying only and was not peaked. Your symetry was good and you were the hardest physique in the show (but I was way bigger :P haha). And to be honest your calves were probably the same size as his! Adonus had Kip beat easily if his colour was better and he was a bit dryer, minor mistakes I'm sure he'll have rectified next year!
It's hard to really tell by looking at the pics and not being there, but it was evident that Chris owned the show. Eastman looked way too soft for his position personally, but I am no judge.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as an ubiased judge, this is human nature and it will never alter. I remember specifically in my first show one of the judges saying if you compete here next year and make improvements, we'll see those improvements you've made, they will stand out to us. This is probably a true statement, but totally wrong for a judge to do. This means when guys like Steve and I go to another town, no judge has seen what we've done throughout the off season, but may have their attention drawn to a particluar local competitor that has and cause a skewed view for proper judgement.
There is really only one solution, train your ass off and diet your ass off and make sure the judges can't ingnore what you've brought to the stage and hope its what it takes to win and even though we all want the 1st place don't forget the real victory should be a personal one that you have brought the best physique you possibly could to the stage and are constantly improving yourself.
Ok folks....
All I want to do is say thanks. Prisoner 22 for the vote of confidence, Prae for the kind words, Dryvergrl for just being the most awesome and supportive chick ever (yeah you should totally do bodybuilding),and everyone for their support.
This was a very tough year for me personally in many ways, the car accident being the final straw of sorts!
I was happy to be there and thrilled to place third in such a tough and talented class of athletes!
Congrats to all that took the stage!!!
Tpay
:welldone
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuns21
Amen! Make yourself undeniable...Make it so that bias will not be enough to take away that trophy. That's my plan for next year. It will be the first time at nationals for me, no one will have seen me there before, but I want to stand out in the opposite way...as in: "who the hell is THAT guy?"
Also, the thing about the bias from seeing you another year, is so true. I remember test judging and than judging a show basically months apart. The same people that competed in the 2nd show, you couldn't help but remember them, or notice them, because you recognize them. Its the same reason why friends and family always say "you got ripped off"...because when your brother or wife is on stage, you can't help but look at them twice as long as anyone else. You notice all the qualities they have, etc. Its nothing major, but when things are close, it sure has an effect.
Judges just need to realize this, and have a fresh mind always. This effect is HUGE in figure when you have 2 rounds, 1 piece and 2 piece. (3 rounds for nationals). You end up having the same people in the top call out each round because you remember what they looked like in 2 pieces. For me personally, I tried to have a fresh mind for the 2nd round when I test judged. I ended up having a girl come in 7th in a 1 peice when I had her 2nd in a 1 piece...I remember getting slack for that. But I wrote down in my notes exactly why this happened, and it truly is possible. (or at least it should be, or else get rid of the 1 piece).
So anyway, all this to say that bias can't be avoided - or at least its very hard to. I also feel placing individuals the same way all the time biases the judges towards the winner. Its kinda easy to notice someone when they are standing in the middle. And 90% of the time, a head judge will throw who they think the winner should be in the middle. Seems that will give that same "favoritism" bias. Not sure if this is the process at nationals, but at least its what I noticed at provincial and local shows.
[QUOTE=BigGuns21;396484]
There is really only one solution, train your ass off and diet your ass off and make sure the judges can't ingnore what you've brought to the stage and hope its what it takes to win and even though we all want the 1st place don't forget the real victory should be a personal one that you have brought the best physique you possibly could to the stage and are constantly improving yourself.[/QUOTE]
Amen to that!
That's my plan...see you all next year!
100% agree, if you want to win the only way is to be vastly superior to everyone else in your class so there is no room for bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuns21
For me as long as I look better than my last showing and I don't place last I am happy.
Interesting that you're finally learning this ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuns21
Apparently you really can train a monkey...
I felt the show was run well. I'm not a judge so I won't comment on placings but could only see 1 or 2 placings that would be off. Anyway I wanted to contribute to the posting as I've been reading here awhile.
How do you post a picture?
Testing
Got it.
Wow--beautiful photography by Glen E. Grant!!!!!
yes^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuns21
My goal going into this show was to MAKE top 15 in master's (always a big class). Standing backstage waiting to see if I was going to even get to compete was CRAZY!
Honestly, I have no complaints with how my catagory was judged...top 3 girls were amazing! I'm thrilled to have placed 7th and was proud with the package I brought to the stage (especially because I did it on my own).
Not sure what is next for me, I believe that to place higher, I would have to add at least 5-10lbs of muscle...those girls are BIG!! I don't know if that is something I want to do...I'm very happy with my physique at this point (on and off season).
All in all, the "National experience" was everything I thought it would be:)
Me and DG:)
LOL.. Great Pic 69!!
for the record.. I did an 80's inspired Jane Fonda kind of aerobics routine... i'm not really tacky into side ponytails and pink and green on a regular daily basis:yeah