Doug's 11% body fat or BUST Journal

[dougz]

Stats:

35y, 6'3", 203 lbs.

Body fat: approximately 20%

Body Measurements (from July 3/09)

Upper Chest: 43.25 Chest: 41 Ribs: 39.5 Waist: 37.5 Hips: 43.0
Thigh: 26.0 Calf: 16.0 Arm: 14 Neck: 16.5

Lifting Goal:

Currently I want to get my body fat to 11%. I've read that the fatter you are, the more your body wants to use any extra calories towards more fat, rather than building muscle.. So no point yet in trying to bulk, if I'm just going to get fatter anyways..

11% is the sweet spot, apparently..

When I get there, I'll start eating for muscle gain, until I get to 15% body fat, at which point I'll do a rapid cut till I get back to 11%, repeat..


Exercise Routine: 2 days a week of Starting Strength (I tweaked a bit)

Usually I train every second day, with some 3 day rests thrown in, but I'm on Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Diet: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-rapid-fat-loss-handbook , and on such an extreme cal deficit, recommended activity is of course minimal, to maximize muscle retention.

A

SQUAT (220 5x3)
BENCH (190 5x3)
BENT OVER ROWS (205 5x3)
FACE PULLS (120 10x3)
BALL CRUNCHES (15x3)

B

DEADLIFT (295 x5)
OH PRESS (135 5x3)
CHIN UPS (6,6,6,6,5,4,3)
HANGING CHAIR RAISES (10x3)
BACK EXTENSIONS (10x3)

Cardio: Boooooooo! >:(

Diet:

RFL Diet (see above).

An average of 1250 cals for 5 days out of the week, 5 meals a day. Then one refeed day where you get around 3000, and a "free" meal on one other day of the week, which adds about 1000 calories, so 2250 on that day..

1g of protein per lbs of LBM, plus 3-5g of fat or carbs per meal, and 10g of EFAs and various vitamin suppliments, thermogenics, and Creatine.

There is 1 refeed day a week, where over a 5 hour period I eat the same amount of protein, but I am able to eat a bit more fat (up to 50g), and I eat mainly starchy carbs to the tune of 500g.

There is also a "free" meal, which, unlike the refeed day, is a psychological, rather than a physiological thing.

You eat 1 meal that has no restrictions on fat, cals, etc.

You don't go crazy, though.. ONE burger with fries and a coke, and maybe a dessert.. Not 3 plates of pasta, 2 milkshakes and 2 large Dairy Queen Blizzards..

The refeed day you do on a WO day, so that the extra cals go towards retaining muscle mass..

The other WO day, you have a bottle of Gatorade for the same goal of retaining muscle.

This diet you follow for, at my fat level, a maximum of 6 weeks. At which point you go on a full 2 week diet break, where you eat at or above maintenence, and load up on a normal diet of starchy carbs..

This serves to reset your hormone and lipid levels, and reverse the metabolic slowdown that has undoubtedly occurred..

So I'll do it for 6 weeks, take a 2 week break, then go on it again and keep doing it until I get down to 15% body fat. This might take 2-3 cycles..

At 15% the fat loss gets trickier.. The risk of muscle loss when eating at a defecit is much greater, and different protocols need to be adhered to..

Lyle McDonald has a different diet for those wanting to get to lower fat levels (The Ultimate Diet 2.0)..

[dougz]

Aug 9/09

Weight: 203 (-9.5 from starting RFL weight))

Huh.. Gotta like that! The morning after a refeed and I've lost a pound!

Activity: 20 min. leisurely walks x 2.

Diet:

380g egg whites
75g salsa

260g chicken breast (2 meals)
200g spinach

460g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
cinnamon
Splenda

Supps:

600mg caffeine (200mg 3x a day)
60mg ephedrine (20mg 3x a day)
1200mg calcium citrate (300mg 4x a day)
450mg magnesium citrate (150mg 3x a day)
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA (2g per meal)
light salt
10g Creatine


Cals: 1170 .. F: 22g C: 21g P: 209g .. 17/10/73

[dougz]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/frontrelaxed3june29Large-1.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/backrelaxedjunebestLarge-1.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/siderelaxedjuneLarge-2.jpg

[dougz]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/frontflexedjune29Large.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/backflexedjune29bestLarge-1.jpg

[tiramisu]

Go Doug!!! I did a similar thing and went from 20+ down to 10%. Got stuck at 12 along the way. At 203 and 6' 3" and 20% you've got the additional challenge of being skinny fat. I was 5' 10" 200 @ 20%+ (42 years) with basically no muscle last year. Currently 210 @ 10% with a trip to 249 in between.

I used rippetoes starting strength as prescribed in the book for about a year and found it obscenely effective until I got to about 1x bodyweight in my bench and 1.5x in squats and 2x deadlift. Despite the fact that I started fat I also decided that I was too weak to be dieting and ate to grow. I ate about 500 calories over maintenance with about 1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight (used fitday to track my intake). Each time my strength increases stalled I added another 500 calories. (Got up to 3 litres of milk a day - not quite gomad). After about 6 months adding additional calories didn't help me get any stronger (stalled). At that point I switch to a palumbo diet fairly strictly. In about 4 months I dropped down to 220 @ 12% then stalled and basically maintained for a couple of months. I found some more willpower and knocked off the last 10 pounds this month and am hoping to switch over to growth mode in a couple of weeks.

Don't know if any of that will help but good luck nonetheless.

[dougz]

good luck nonetheless

Thanks!

Yeah, I stalled on SS after about 7-8 months, but at that point instead of adding cals, I decided to get to a better position to add more muscle than fat with any calorie surpluses, first..

Now, eating at a deficit, I'm just trying to hold on the strength I HAVE..

[nisser]

You need more food man. That's drastically low.

[dougz]

That's drastically low

I'll keep that in mind, thanks..

[faller]

Just want to say that this journal is done up very nicely. You put a lot of thought and time into it..

[dougz]

Thanks, man..

Like I said in my intro, this isn't my first rodeo.. :)

I read a bunch on several other forums that I belong to, gauged what was good to include, what was extraneous.. Then started my own, and set it up so everything was clear and concise, without any inane clutter..

[ironwill]

giver shit Doug...If you need encouragement, or some help, come on the board and ask away...

[declan]

Great mindset man, I hope you get to your goal.

[dougz]

giver shit Doug...

Thanks.. :)

Reading now, and will try to keep up with new posts..

[rated_rko]

goodluck dude

[wolverine]

Awesome base man, you should be able to do this, best of luck Dougie, I will be rooting for ya!!

[dougz]

Thanks, guys..

If these last 8 days are any indication, I should be able to do 6 weeks standing on my head.. :)

(famous last words..)

Seriously, though.. So far no brain farts, hunger pangs or lethargy..

But they say the appetite-suppressing and stimulating effects of the caffeine and ephedrine (EC stack, it's called) start to wear off after a while.. :(

[O-Train]

You need more food man. That's drastically low.

I STRONGLY AGREE. Multiply your caloric intake by 2. A guy your size needs way more food. Or do whatever you want but don't say you weren't warned.

[dougz]

A guy your size needs way more food

To what, exactly?

Stay the same weight?

I'm not trying to do that, dude.. :)

To save muscle/strength?

All I can say to that is you can lose weight, or you can build muscle.. But it's pretty damn hard, if not impossible, to do both..

So better to get on with one or the other, I say..

I'm loosing weight (fat, but yes, maybe some muscle, and ALOT of water weight) for the reason I explain in my initial entry..

If you eat at least 1g of protein per lbs of body weight you will not lose muscle, or at least you will lose the least amount possible.. (Ask around).

Any effects of such a radical diet (metabolic rate slow down, reduced testosterone and other hormone secretions) are mitigated partially by weekly refeeds (my last one was 3200 cals), and in full every 6 weeks, when you take a full 2 week break..

But that's my last word on it..

I won't bother trying to convince anybody that I'm right and they're wrong after this.. :)

[BritishColumbian]

Hey Doug, looks like you have a good attitude! Nice work on your journal so far!
I agree with Nisser on the amount of food your eating! I would go with a small healthy meal every 2 hours to speed up your motabalizm, Low fats/low carbs/high protein. But you said this isnt your first go.
Cardio is mandatory~
Your arms look bigger than 14"???
anyway good luck and keep us posted, you are accountable

[gsxr750]

You're starving yourself. I been in your shoes and tried things like this and always ended up back at the same, my dedication was there 100%.

I wish you better luck. There's alot more to consider then just how much protein you're eating for muscle preservation.

You only have like 20lbs to lose, I don't think you need such a drastic yoyo diet but that's just my opinion! GOOD LUCK! Keep us updated, and keep updating us AFTER you lose the weight i'm curious how you will keep it off!

[dougz]

I would go with a small healthy meal every 2 hours to speed up your motabalizm

This has been debunked, but again, I'm not going to try and convince anyone.. :)

Have you guys read any of Alan Aragon's or Lyle McDonald's stuff?

[faller]

This has been debunked, but again, I'm not going to try and convince anyone.. :)



Interesting.. First i've heard of this, not saying its not true, i like to keep an open mind. I'll google those names and do some reading.

[dougz]

I'll google those names and do some reading.

Google Leigh Peele, while you're at it..

Here's one article by Lyle, in case you come up empty:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/meal-frequency-and-energy-balance-research-review.html

Hope that helps..

There are others, but it's getting late..

Basically, while it doesn't HURT to eat every 3-4 hours (and in cases of those people who's blood sugar tends to drop if they go for longer than that without eating, or those who are bulking and NEED to eat more meals), there's nothing to prove it makes any difference to one's metabolic rate..

Your caloric intake, and to a much lesser extent your macro composition, for the day is what is king, and if you can meet those targets with 3 square meals, go to it..

[L3]

Basically, while it doesn't HURT to eat every 3-4 hours ...there's nothing to prove it makes any difference to one's metabolic rate..

Your caloric intake, and to a much lesser extent your macro composition, for the day is what is king, and if you can meet those targets with 3 square meals, go to it..

so how come you are eating 5 meals a day?

[dougz]

so how come you are eating 5 meals a day?

Because it doesn't hurt, and I get hungry/low blood sugar every 3-4 hours.. :)

I haven't experimented with larger meals, and seeing if I can go longer between meals as a result, though.

I've just always eaten like this, as long as I can remember..

But the point I was making (and the point of every other nutritionist worth their salt) is that you don't have to..

It's affect on metabolic rate is negligable..

[gsxr750]

I hosted the book online, for anyone who wants to have a read.

http://download511.mediafire.com/fjmajmetnwbg/iynyllmuhhq/rapid_fatloss_handbook.rar

[steve_d]

11% is the sweet spot, apparently..

When I get there, I'll start eating for muscle gain, until I get to 15% body fat, at which point I'll do a rapid cut till I get back to 11%, repeat..



I don't think you are at 20% bodyfat looking at your pictures. I do have a question though that I couldn't figure out from the first post. How many calories on the days that do not include the cheat meal, and re-feed day.

It seems the re-feed day/window you talked of 50g fat, 500g carbs, and about 100g protein. so that's about 3000 calories. Plus the day that you have a cheat meal (burger/fries or whatever) which probably has about 2000 during the whole day. So by my calculations, you're eating 5000 in those 2 days, so the other 5 you need about 750 calories only to get an average of 1250. Is this true?!

All I am going to say is that you should reach you're 11% goal quite quickly if you stay on the diet.

[baza]

I have not read any of Lyle's books, but have read some of his articles, and have received advice from him on a couple occassions. That being said, and I could be right clueless, but are you sure you are doing that right? I thought his diet was similar to CKD, high fat.
Your calories come out to 1118, which is about as much a female will diet with.
You will feel like ass on that diet, a nd will be very hard to stick with it.

That being said. You have a good base, and should look good after dropping a few pounds.

Edit: Thought you said you were doing Ultimate fatloss diet, which is probably similar to what I said above, I didn't see you are doing RFL diet, which I know nothing about.

[dougz]

I don't think you are at 20% bodyfat looking at your pictures.

You think I'm higher? :)

Note that I am on Creatine..


the re-feed day/window you talked of 50g fat, 500g carbs, and about 100g protein.

No, it's the same as the other days for protein, 205g (1g per lbs of body weight)..

And 1250 isn't an average of the week, it's the average of what I eat every day EXCEPT my refeed day, free meal day, and non-refeed WO day (where I drink a Gatorade during).. Some days it's 1300, some days it's 1200, etc. etc..

My refeed day comes to about [B]3300 cals), my free meal day (I haven't taken one yet, and don't know that I will, as it's for diet sanity only, and serves no physiological purpose) adds let's say an extra 800 cals so 2050 cals), and my other WO day, where I have a Gatorade during my WO, which is an extra 160 cals, so 1400 cals.

Sorry for the confusion.. I've edited the initial post to clear that up..


Your calories come out to 1118

Close!


You will feel like ass on that diet, a nd will be very hard to stick with it

Feeling ok so far.. Don't jinx me! LOL

Like I say, I'm dreading the appetite suppression effects leaving as I become more tolerant of the EC stack.. :(

Hopefully the worst it will come to is snacks of celery, spinach and lots of tea to fill me up in between meals..

[dougz]

Aug 10/09

Activity: 20 min leisurely walk, some Wii gaming..

Diet:

10 oz. chicken breast (2 meals)
125g spinach

380g egg whites
60g salsa

480g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

Supps:

600mg caffeine
60mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
10g Creatine

Cals: 1200 .. F: 22g C: 16g P: 217g .. 17/7/75

[gsxr750]

I think he meant lower. You don't look like you're 20%. More like 15 or 16% :D

I usually go with the visual of abs at 10%, and you're really almost there.

[dougz]

I think he meant lower. You don't look like you're 20%. More like 15 or 16%

Last caliper test was 20%, 2 weeks after I stopped taking Creatine..

19% is the lowest I would go, I think, as far as margin of error.. :)

I know calipers even are notoriously inaccurate, but.....

I'll see if I can't get down to 190, see what I am then..

[steve_d]

You think I'm higher? :)

Note that I am on Creatine..





I was saying lower...I was hinting that you'll be 11% very fast since you're closer to it than you think. The pics aren't even in good lighting and I see some definition especially in the back.

What I see is a some initial water loss, plus about 10 pounds max fatloss, and you'll be at 11%. By the time you're 180 or so, you'll be there. If you were 20%, then you'd have to figure on being about 165 by the time you hit you're goal!

How much cardio are you doing?

[O-Train]

To what, exactly?

Stay the same weight?

I'm not trying to do that, dude.. :)

To save muscle/strength?

All I can say to that is you can lose weight, or you can build muscle.. But it's pretty damn hard, if not impossible, to do both..

So better to get on with one or the other, I say..

I'm loosing weight (fat, but yes, maybe some muscle, and ALOT of water weight) for the reason I explain in my initial entry..

If you eat at least 1g of protein per lbs of body weight you will not lose muscle, or at least you will lose the least amount possible.. (Ask around).

Any effects of such a radical diet (metabolic rate slow down, reduced testosterone and other hormone secretions) are mitigated partially by weekly refeeds (my last one was 3200 cals), and in full every 6 weeks, when you take a full 2 week break..

But that's my last word on it..

I won't bother trying to convince anybody that I'm right and they're wrong after this.. :)

Doug, some people on this site have a lot of experience and real education that didn't come from parroting something they read on the internet. So the next time you feel like trying to play teacher, give your head a shake and keep your fingers off the keyboard.

[dougz]

By the time you're 180 or so, you'll be there.

Yup, we'll see.. :)

I'll go down to 180, get the water weight back (10 lbs again, I'm thinking)..

And hopefully I'll be able to start bulking again..


How much cardio are you doing?

Zero to none.. Leisurely to brisk walks, that's about it.. Like I say, at such a drastic caloric defecit, the theory is I should be conserving as much energy as I can towards maintaining muscle mass with lifting sessions instead..


Doug, some people on this site have a lot of experience and real education that didn't come from parroting something they read on the internet. So the next time you feel like trying to play teacher, give your head a shake and keep your fingers off the keyboard.

Hoo boy..

I'm playing teacher??!

First of all, I wasn't trying to lecture or convince anyone of anything, as I expressly stated..

And if I came off that way, as I feared I might... *sigh* that's also why I said it would be for the first and last time - to avoid inane flame sessions like this is probably going to turn into..

I was trying clarifying my reasons for why I was eating the way I am, and what I am basing that reasoning on, so we could dispense with the "you got to eat more! You're starving" lectures, as you call them, that don't even bother to argue their reasoning..

I'm all for looking for different ways to go about things, and learning from my betters (as I'm sure you figure you are, having read "better" books than I have, and bigger muscles)..

But you're way off base..

[natenator]

Yup, we'll see.. :)

I'll go down to 180, get the water weight back (10 lbs again, I'm thinking)..

And hopefully I'll be able to start bulking again..



Hoo boy..

I'm playing teacher??!

First of all, I wasn't trying to lecture or convince anyone of anything, as I expressly stated..

And if I came off that way, as I feared I might... *sigh* that's also why I said it would be for the first and last time - to avoid inane flame sessions like this is probably going to turn into..

I was trying clarifying my reasons for why I was eating the way I am, and what I am basing that reasoning on, so we could dispense with the "you got to eat more! You're starving" lectures, as you call them, that don't even bother to argue their reasoning..

I'm all for looking for different ways to go about things, and learning from my betters (as I'm sure you figure you are, having read "better" books than I have, and bigger muscles)..

But you're way off base..
wow you got a helluva attitude on you huh?

[dougz]

wow you got a helluva attitude on you huh?

I guess so..

Beats lying down when someone rips into you, I always say..

But I also say argueing on the the internet is like the special olympics..

Even if you win, you're still retarded..

So, I'm not going to rise to the bait, anymore, sorry guys..

You know where I live if you want to make the trip..

[natenator]

I guess so..

Beats lying down when someone rips into you, I always say..

But I also say argueing on the the internet is like the special olympics..

Even if you win, you're still retarded..

So, I'm not going to rise to the bait, anymore, sorry guys..

You know where I live if you want to make the trip..
Usually people as out of shape as you are like to listen and learn as much as possible to try and reach their goals as efficiently as possible. You have a great initial plan and all some people were doing is offering advice on some tweaks to help you avoid common pitfalls and mistakes so many of us make and have made.

Starting calories too low is a problem. Dieting (like growing) is a phased approach. You start with a baseline and adjust every week or two or three based on the results you are seeing. When you start calories too low your tweaking options become more and more limited at time goes on and eventually you just stall out and progress stops thus never reaching your goals.

No one here is arguing and we only try to help you achieve your goals.

[O-Train]

I am being kinda a jerk, sorry. Here is my thought process. You're getting the majority of your energy intake from protein. So your body will be using a lot of that protein for energy because it has to. Muscle is very metabolically active so it requires a lot of calories to maintain. What I think will happen is your body will go into a starvation mode and your basal metabolic rate will drop quite a bit. You also have to think about other things like glycogen and how it is being replenished.

You mentioned refeed days and them negating the effects of a low caloric intake but what if the flip side occurs? Your metabolism goes way down and when you have high calorie days, because your body percieves the low calorie diet as starvation, it stores the excess calories as fat in an effort to preserve itself. Then you're stuck with a body wanting to store everything as fat and your losing strength and muscle. This may not happen but I think a better approach would be to just eat a more balanced diet and do some cardiovascular training. I don't think dropping your daily caloric intake so far below what your body requires is the optimal way of going about things.

[nisser]

I'm still sticking by what I said. Sure you'll get your 11% bf goal but you will have lost much more than the 20lbs and a lot of muscle.

[phatkid77]

A. the 1200 or so cals is the lowest you would want to go @ 203lb....i bet you can lose on 2500-3000...but whatever floats your boat...

b. layne norton did a study on meals, and confirmed 3 bigger meals suffice...but supplemented with leucine in between meals for positive nitrogen
http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass

c. nice touch on asking people to come meet u....lmao

d. cant find laynes competition link...fack...think i did :)
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne36.htm

e. i think your refeed is not big enough either....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne17.htm
170lb....2000 cals to lose

[dougz]

"Usually people as out of shape as you are like to listen and learn as much as possible to try and reach their goals as efficiently as possible.

Usually.. LOL

Seriously, I'm all for constructive criticism.. That's why I'm here..

It just seemed like those advocating more calories are making knee-jerk statements without having even read my posts, and that bugged me..


all some people were doing is offering advice on some tweaks to help you avoid common pitfalls and mistakes so many of us make and have made.

Teaks are fine.. But I don't consider "multiplying my intake by 2" to be a "tweak".. :)

That's more of a total revamp.. LOL

I should have mentioned that I used to be 230, but after eating at a 500 cal deficit I managed to lose 25 lbs in 3 months..

Which is great, but I still have a long ways to go, and I don't want to be forever on a diet, and at my fat level I felt I could afford to take it up a notch..

So, I did extensive research on more extreme deficits, and the pitfalls..

And everything I read led me to believe that indeed, the higher fat level you are, the less at risk you are of losing muscle along with the fat..

The end of the road of all my reading to this point brought me to Lyle's site, and his RFL diet..


Starting calories too low is a problem. Dieting (like growing) is a phased approach. You start with a baseline and adjust every week or two or three based on the results you are seeing

You bet, I agree whole-heartedly..

If I was trying to find the sweet spot as to what my maintenence level is, calorie wise, so I could add 500 calories with the confidence that I wouldn't be adding too much fat, that's how I'd do it (and I will, when I get to that point).

And if I was at a low body fat level already, where losing hard-earned muscle is a real danger, you bet I'd be taking my time dialing in my intake, and erring on the high side to begin with..

But as I said, I have the wiggle room..

And... the diet is what it is..

I can either give Lyle the benefit of the doubt, and follow it exactly, and find out based on my results whether it does indeed work or not..

OR I can "tweak" here, and tweak there, until I'm in no position to do any such thing..

Alot of people do just that, and then bitch that something doesn't work, or doesn't work for them, and move on to their next failure..

I don't roll that way..

I can be a pussy and quibble over a few hundred calories, or I can cowboy up and embrace the suck..

I've got the discipline, though.. Especially knowing I have the refeeds and free meals at the end of the tunnel every week..


I am being kinda a jerk, sorry.

I'm sorry too.. The blood was up.. :o


your basal metabolic rate will drop quite a bit. You also have to think about other things like glycogen and how it is being replenished.

You're right, it will..

But ike I say, I would argue that it's at least partially offset with the weekly refeeds (the glycogen especially), and almost completely be the 2 week full diet breaks..



[QUOTE] what if the flip side occurs? Your metabolism goes way down and when you have high calorie days, because your body percieves the low calorie diet as starvation, it stores the excess calories as fat in an effort to preserve itself.

Again, I can only stand by Lyle's research and the results of those (Lyle included) that have been on the diet..

And according to him, that's not what happens at all (especially when taking ephedrine and caffeine), because:

A) 1200 calories of mostly protein won't put the body into starvation mode..

It WILL trigger a response (metabolic slowdown, decreased thyroid levels, etc), but not a starvation response (catabolism)..

The research indicated that .75-1.0g of protein per pound of body weight is all that is required for the body's energy use, as protein itself is the best protein (muscle) sparing nutrient, as opposed to fat or carbs..

B) Because the body doesn't think it's starving, it doesn't store the excess calories as fat in an effort to preserve itself.

Instead (especially if you lift weights, as opposed to cardio, which doesn't do even half as good a job of depleting glycogen) any calorie surplus goes straight towards replacing glycogen levels..

But, the proof is in the pudding..

I could sit here and quote the whole book, or I could just keep on documenting my progress and proving or disproving his theory to you that way.. :)


i think your refeed is not big enough either....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne17.htm

:)

Well, like I say, we could hurl case studies, etc. at each other all day..

In the end, though, you have to make up your own mind, and follow through on something in order to prove or disprove something..

[wolverine]

Brother do what you set out to do, I want to see you in the end and I think you can do it, I also think the advice offered is great, one thing I've learned on here is there are a lot of smart people with a lot of knowledge when it comes to stacks and diet, this board has helped me tremendously but stick to your guns and finish it off, I think you will make it work.

Wolvy.

[dougz]

August 11/09

$#@!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saved my last EC stack dose for my WO, and then I forget to take it!!

Had to take it after, at 10pm (hope it doesn't keep me up)..

Diet:

5 oz chicken breast
60g salsa

460g egg whites (2 meals)
140g salsa

230g dry curd cottage cheese

500ml Gatorade

WO

230g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

600mg caffeine
60mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
10g Creatine

Cals: 1275 .. F: 17g C: 46g P: 206g .. 15/18/68



Workout:

SQUAT

BARx5
95x5
145x3
215x2
225x5x3

BENCH

BARx5
95x5
145x3
165x2
185x5x3
165x5

Some bridging on my last reps, but at least controlled and not too fast or slow (shaky, though..)..

BENT OVER ROWS

60x8
80x5
95x4
145x3
195x5x3
145x5

FACE PULLS

"10"x10
"12"x10x3
"10"x5

BALL CRUNCHES

15x3

[KawiCara]

You make me feel like I'm eating too much! Lol...but im sure you'll reach your goals quickly...good luck :)

[dougz]

You make me feel like I'm eating too much! Lol

Well, I need to lose weight.. You don't.. LOL

Thanks for the affirmation, though.. :)

[dougz]

Aug 12/09

Weight:202 (-10.5)

Activity: Wii yoga (harder than it looks!!!), boxing.. 20 minute walks x 2.

Diet:

380g egg whites
60g salsa

10 oz chicken (2 meals)
200g spinach

460g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

600mg caffeine
60mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
10g Creatine

Cals: 1200 .. F: 23g C: 20g P: 216g .. 17/10/73

[dougz]

Aug 13/09

Activity: leisurely 20 min walk.

Planning my refeed..

Thinking about doing my WO in the afternoon, so I can have a morning pancake breakfast..

I think I'll use regular buttermilk pancakes rather than whole wheat ones.. Might be easier to get them down without the extra fiber..

Oh, also.. Note that I'm including the 10 EFA pills in my calorie count.. 10g of fat = 90 cals.. Just so you know..

Diet:

460g egg whites (2 meals)
140g salsa

10 oz chicken breast (2 meals)
150g spinach

230g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

600mg caffeine
60mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
10g Creatine

Cals: 1200 .. F: 22g C: 21g P: 216g .. 17/10/73

[dougz]

Aug 14/09

Activity: 1 hour of Wii yoga and balance exercises. Brisk 20 minute walk.

Weight: 199 (-13.5)

Hmm.. I keep eating like I'm 215 (averaging 215g of protein per day)..

I did adjust for protein once already, according to the main courses (chicken breast, etc), but I'm forgetting to factor in protein content of side dishes (salsa, spinach)..

I need to adjust for 199 as of today (still 2 more meals to eat), side dishes and all..

Diet:

9.1 oz chicken breast (2 meals)
80g picco de gallo
75g spinach

380g egg whites
60g salsa

100g dry curd cottage cheese
255g egg whites
40g picco de gallo

200g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

600mg caffeine
60mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1160 .. F: 21g C: 19g P: 208g .. 16/11/73

[dougz]

Aug 15/09

Another glorious refeed day has come and gone..

Went pretty well, though.. Way better than last week..

$#@!! No ephedrine.. I thought I had one more bottle of it.. Went to the pharmacies.. Of course no one carries it!

I'll have to wait about a week till I can get some shipped to me..
For now I bought the only thermogenic they had: Metaslim..

It has Yerba Mate (some kind of caffeine-type thing?) 200mg, and some other garbage (cayeene pepper.. oooooh!)..

Diet:

4.75 oz chicken breast
75g spinach

155g Aunt Jemima's Buttermilk Pancake mix
1 egg
230g 1% milk
5g olive oil
10g butter
100g bananas
100g blueberries (blended with Splenda into a syrup)
200g 1% milk

F 20g, C 162g C, P 35g

WORKOUT

135g dry curd cottage cheese
250g chocolate milk
220g Bryer's vanilla fat free ice cream
155g rolled oats

F 12g C 161g P 42g

190g whole wheat bagels
100g organic blueberry jam
200g 1% milk

F 20g C 163g P 35g

Refeed total: 50g F, 497g C, 125g P

Carbs should have been 480, but it's close enough for government work..

100g dry curd cottage cheese
22g whey protein powder

Supps:

3 Metaslim tablets, plus 400mg caffeine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 3425 .. F: 66g C: 504g P: 209g .. 17/57/26

Workout:

DEADLIFTS

135x5
185x4
235x2
255x2
275x2
295x5

OH PRESS

BARx5
65x4
85x3
105x3
125x2
135x4x3
110x5

CHIN UPS

x6, x6, x6, x5, x5, x5, x5 = 38 (no weights)

BALL CRUNCHES

15x3

BACK EXTENSIONS

10x3

[dougz]

Aug 16/09

Weight: 201 (not bad for just having done a refeed).

Shoot.. Was re-reading UD 2.0, and you're not supposed to take the EC stack on carb-loading days.. :(

Oh well, I'll know for next time..

[dougz]

Aug 16/09

Activity: 20 min walk, 40 min on wii (yoga, balance).

Diet:

14 oz chicken breast (3 meals)
100g salsa

360g egg whites
30g picco de gallo

30g whey protein powder
150g 1% cottage cheese (Store out of dry curd cottage cheese :mad:)

Supps:

3 Metaslim tablets, plus 400mg caffeine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1150 .. F: 26g C: 16g P: 202g .. 20/7/73

[dougz]

Aug 17/09

Weight: 200 (-12.5)

Activity: 45 min Wii Yoga, balance exercises. 20 min walk, WO..

Diet:

10.5 oz chicken breast (2 meals)
60g spinach

150g 1% cottage cheese
23g whey protein powder

* I hate using the protein powder, but I want to get the dairy content in, but can't add more cottage cheese because of the high carb grams (7-8g per 150g serving).

480 ml Gatorade
30g whey protein powder.

WORKOUT

* Finally getting this part right, after 2 weeks..

150g 1% cottage cheese
23g whey protein powder

Supps:

3 Metaslim tablets, plus 1200mg caffeine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1250 .. F: 25g C: 50g P: 202g .. 18/16/66



WORKOUT

SQUAT

BARx5
95x5
145x3
215x2
235x5x2
235x4x1
215x7

I failed on my last one.. First time I've done that.. I mean, I've pushed out some pretty fugly final reps, but I've never had to lay it on the cross bars before.. :(

BENCH

BARx5
95x5
145x3
165x2
187x5x3
165x5

BENT OVER ROWS

60x8
80x5
95x4
145x3
195x5x3
145x5

FACE PULLS

"10"x10
"12"x10x3

BALL CRUNCHES

15x3

[dougz]

Aug 18/09

Activity: Nothing much at all.. Cleaned the fish tank..

Having real hunger pangs, today..

Dunno whether it's because I haven't been taking the ephedrine or not (I ran out a couple days ago, and am waiting on an order of it to come in this week)..

Still haven't had any extra snacks of celery or anything, but I'll probably have some right before I go to bed tonight..

Of course my wife makes rhubarb crumble.... :eek:

But I'm staying strong (well, stupid, according to Lyle, and others)..

The refeed approacheth..

Finally got some egg whites and dry curd cottage cheese in at the store..

Not as tasty with just cinnamon and a bit of Splenda (as opposed to chocolate protein powder), but at least I can have more of it..

I'm going to have it with some cocoa powder tonight.. I have the carb room from just eating spinach on the side with my chicken all day..

Diet:

18 oz chicken breast (4 meals)
120g spinach

230g dry curd cottage cheese
10 cocoa powder
Splenda to taste

Supps:

200mg caffeine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1185 .. F: 31g C: 12g P: 203g .. 24/4/72

[dougz]

Aug 19/09

Weight: 197 (-15.5)

Activity: 20 minute leisurely walk. 30 min. Wii yoga and balance stuff..

Geez.. I thought that after only 4 days I wouldn't have lost my tolerance for the ephedrine..

But I took a dose (24mg) all at once (usual is 20mg x 3 with caffeine) after work, after seeing my order came in, finally, and my heart is a-thumpin'!!

Should have eased into it again, as I did when I started with it..

Oh well.. Now I know.. :)

Diet:

370g egg whites
45g salsa

9 oz chicken breast (2 meals)
50g salsa
40g spinach

460 dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
10g cocoa powder
Splenda

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1100 .. F: 31g C: 12g P: 199g .. 23/12/72

[dougz]

Aug 20/09

Woohoo! Refeed day! Tried out the RFL-approved WO routine, as well..

It felt good.. Not as draining doing leg presses instead of squats.. I feel tired out, but not wrecked.. I'll try to step it up a little bit next time..

No EC stack today.. I read in UD 2.0 that it's not conducive to a good carb load..

Diet:

150g Aunt Jemima buttermilk pancake mix
1 egg
5g olive oil
10g butter
105g bananas
110g blueberries
435g 1% milk

WORKOUT

Leg Press

90x8
180x6
270x5
360x8x3

Leg Curl

80x8
120x8x2

Bench Press

BARx5
95x5
145x3
165x2
185x5x2
145x7

Chin Ups

6,6,6,5,5,5,5 (38)

Single Arm Lateral Raises

20x8
30x8
40x8x2

Biceps curl (alternating sides)

25x8
35x8x2

Back Extension

8x2

Hanging Chair Raises

10x3

Duration: 52 min.


155g oatmeal
220g fat free ice cream 135g dry curd cottage cheese
255g chocolate milk

70g organic blueberry jam
190g whole wheat bagels
200g 1% milk

430g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

Cals: 3325 .. F: 62g C: 488g P: 200g .. 17/57/26

[dougz]

Aug 21/09

Activity: 20 minute leisurely walk x 2

Diet:

60g 1% cottage cheese

365g egg white
40g salsa

150g chicken breast

7.75 oz chicken breast (2 meals)
40g salsa

Cals: 1150 .. F: 25g C: 15g P: 202g .. 20/5/75

[HYEPWRD]

Could you possibly quote your waist circumference with your progress reports....

I find waist circumference to be the best indicator of true BF loss. (~4lbs fat loss for every 1inch reduction for me).
scale weight can vary so much with water retension.

thanks, and great log btw..

[dougz]

Could you possibly quote your waist circumference with your progress reports....

Yup, I sure will, along with other girth measurements, pics, and caliper bf results..

When I get down to 195 I'll do another one..


Great log btw..

Thanks!

[dougz]

Aug 22/09

Activity:

20 min walk, Wii yoga, Wii kendo (probably over did it on this.. LOL Can't wait till my GoWearfit shows up, and I can see what I'm burning doing this stuff..).

Diet:

8.75 oz chicken (2 meals)
80g picco de gallo

375g egg whites
60g picco de gallo

470g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1110 .. F:20g C: 15g P: 200g .. 17/5/74

[dougz]

Aug 23/09

Weight: 197 (-15.5)

Back to where I was before Thursday's refeed (3 days ago).

Activity:

20 min walk, Wii Yoga, some Wii strength poses (bird-dog, planks).. Might have over-done it activity wise doing that, so I'll stick with the yoga and balance stuff from now on..

Diet:

260g egg whites

279g chicken breast (2 meals)
60g spinach
150g picco de gallo

25g 1% cottage cheese (2 meals)
230g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1150 .. F:23g C: 20g P: 201g .. 19/8/73

[dougz]

Aug 24/09

Activity:

Big shopping day in PG.. Will be on feet most of the day, besides the 4 hours of driving time.

Diet:

360g chicken breast (3 meals)
180g picco de gallo

470 g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1160 .. F:25g C: 17g P: 200g .. 19/9/72

[tex]

keep it up!!! looks like you are well on your way!

[dougz]

Aug 26/09

Weight: 194

Activity: Non-refeed WO (was good, no problems)

380g egg whites
90g picco de gallo

360g chicken breast (2 meals)
150g picco

360ml Gatorade

Workout

225g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1230 .. F:24g C: 39g P: 200g .. 17/15/67

[HYEPWRD]

So doug..you've lost 9lbs (203 to 194lbs) in 17 days(aug 9 to Aug26)?

You are averaging 1650 cals a day(with the re-feed+cheat) and your daily calorie usage is about 2700.

2700
-1650
------
1070 calorie deficit a day......times 17 days=18190 calories

or 5.2lbs of fat loss.

Hopefully the other 4lbs youve lost is just water and not muscle.

good job so far.....dieting takes soo long aye?

[dougz]

Hopefully the other 4lbs youve lost is just water and not muscle.

Hopefully.. :)

Remember there's more to LBM than water, muscle and fat..

(blood, , bones, organs, glycogen, etc)..

[dougz]

Aug 28/09

Activity: Leisurely 20 min. walks x 2.

Feeling better today, after going to bed early yesterday..

Diet:

380g egg whites
70g salsa

250g chicken breast (2 meals)
70g salsa
65g spinach

450g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
10g cocoa powder

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1115 .. F: 23g C: 14g P: 201g .. 18/8/75

[JonnyO]

May I ask why your only eating 2 meals a day? Do you know the importance of meal frequency and spacing them out? No offence I am just curious as I've never seen a diet like yours.

[dougz]

Hey Jonny, thanks for having a look!

I'm actually eating 5 meals a day..

If you have a look, you'll see that the chicken and the cottage cheese are divided into 2 meals, and then the egg white meal.

[dougz]

Aug 28/09

PROGRESS REPORT

Weight: 194.5 (-18)

Since I started dieting at 230 lbs 6 months or so ago: 35.5

Since started RFL: -18

Body fat (calipers): 19% (factoring in Creatine, maybe 18%?)

Body fat according to US NAVY FORMULA:

http://www.webcalcsolutions.com/Fitness-Calculators/Body-Fat-Navy.asp?AcctNum=3

waist 36", neck 16.5", height 6'3", weight 194 lbs = 16%

Girth Measurements:

Upper Chest: 42.5

Chest: 40.25 (-.75)

Ribs: 38.5 (-1.0)

Waist: 36 (-1.5)

Hips: 42

Thigh: 25

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809frontrelaxed3.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809backrelaxedcloseup-2.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809siderelaxed.jpg

[dougz]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809frontmostmuscular-3.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809frontdoublebicepsvacuum-2.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809backflexed-2.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809sidetricep-2.jpg

[dougz]

For comparison purposes:


Before (june 29):*

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/frontrelaxed3june29Large-2.jpg

After (Aug 28):

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809frontrelaxed3-2.jpg


Before (june 29):*

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/backrelaxedjunebestLarge-3.jpg

After (Aug 28):

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809backrelaxedcloseup-4.jpg

[dougz]

Before:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/siderelaxedjune-1.jpg

After:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809siderelaxed-2.jpg

Before:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/fronttoponlyjune09-1.jpg

After:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/aug2809frontdoublebicepsvacuum-2.jpg

[JonnyO]

Hey Jonny, thanks for having a look!

I'm actually eating 5 meals a day..

If you have a look, you'll see that the chicken and the cottage cheese are divided into 2 meals, and then the egg white meal.

Ok I see my bad. You've made some serious fat loss so far, good work.

[dougz]

You've made some serious fat loss so far, good work

Thanks..

Can't wait till it's over!!

It looks like I'll need to do another round of RFL, though.. :(

After a 2 week break, that is..

[dougz]

Aug 28/09 again..

Whoops.. Skipped a day.. :)

Weight: 194.5 (-18)

I did a body fat measurement, etc.. But I'd like to wait and see if Lyle's going to give me a body fat estimate before posting my results here..

Activity: 20 minute leisurely walk, cleaned fish tank.

Diet:

380g egg whites
70g salsa

250g Chicken breast (2 meals)
80g picco de gallo

450g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
10g cocoa powder

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1180 .. F: 23g C: 18g P: 206g .. 18/8/73

[LIVEHARD]

Aug 28/09 again..

Whoops.. Skipped a day.. :)

Weight: 194.5 (-18)

I did a body fat measurement, etc.. But I'd like to wait and see if Lyle's going to give me a body fat estimate before posting my results here..

Activity: 20 minute leisurely walk, cleaned fish tank.

Diet:

380g egg whites
70g salsa

250g Chicken breast (2 meals)
80g picco de gallo

450g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
10g cocoa powder

Supps:

200mg caffeine
24mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1180 .. F: 23g C: 18g P: 206g .. 18/8/73

Well done keep it up How about a bit of muscle mass it will help with the fat burn

I guess you have your sights set on some new hot pussy !!

I hope so !!!!

(((no cheating standing behind the fish tank and telling everyone you have a big dick )))

LOL

best wishes

[dougz]

How about a bit of muscle mass it will help with the fat burn

That's the goal.. But AFTER I get to a decent body fat level, so the added calories will go towards muscle, not fat again..

[dougz]

Aug 29/09

Weight: 193.5

Refeed day! :p

It went well.. I finally got my PWO shake where I want it, taste-wise.. I did white flour raisin bagels over whole wheat, which is way easier going down.. I went a bit over on carbs (500 rather than 480), but I was able to get my fat down to 30 from 50.. Weird that rolled oats would be the biggest offender for fats..

WO went well.. Definately more motivated doing leg presses over squats..

Workout

Leg Press

90x8
180x6
270x5
360x8x3

Leg Curl

80x8
100x8
120x8x2

Bench Press

BARx5
95x5
145x3
165x2
195x3x3
145x7

Lat pulldowns

"10"x8
"12"x8x3

Single Arm Lateral Raises

20x8
30x8
40x8x2

Biceps curl (alternating sides)

25x8
35x8x2

Back Extension

10x2

Hanging Chair Raises

10x3

Diet:

150g Aunt Jemima buttermilk pancake mix
35g egg whites
6g olive oil
440g 1% milk
110g banana
110g blueberries

155g rolled oats
100g banana
215g chocolate milk
15g Metabolic Drive protein powder
80g Bryer's fat free ice cream

200g raisin bagels
300g 1% milk
70g organic blueberry jam
14g Metabolic Drive protein powder

475g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

Supps:

1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine



Cals: 3210 .. F: 43g C: 510g P: 196g .. 12/62/26

[dougz]

Aug 30/09

Weight: 193.5

Activity: Wii Yoga and strength.

I heard back from Leigh.. She thinks about 15% body fat as well..

So.. that's good enough for me, 15% it is..

We'll see how low I go before the break in 2 weeks..

If I can get to 185, great..

Then I'll take a diet break for 2 weeks to a month, see where my maintenence level is at, with the help of the Gowear Fit (will need a month, I'm thinking)..

Diet:

730g egg whites (2 meals)
50g spinach
175g picco de gallo

125g chicken breast
50 picco de gallo

410g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
10g cocoa powder

Supps:

1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1115 .. F: 18g C: 24g P: 200g .. 15/10/75

[dougz]

One more progress pic..

Finally figured out how to get them side by side.. Shame about the shifting perspective, though.. Wish I'd thought to keep the distance from the camera consistent!! :(

This is April to end of August..

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/spartanprince.jpg

[HYEPWRD]

SIDE BY SIDES ARE VERY DRAMATIC. REALLY SHOWS THE IMPROVEMENTS.

[dougz]

I'll post the side and back ones in a bit, here..

[dougz]

Aug 31/09

Weight: 193

Activity: leisurely 20 min walk x 2.

Diet:

400g egg whites
200g raw mushrooms

140g chicken breast ***
65g salsa

550g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
20g cocoa powder

Cals: 1120 or 1285

Fat: 22g Carbs: 29g Protein: 194 ...... 20/10/70 (approx)


$#@! Today's totals are going to be a guess..

I can't remember if I measured out 240g of chicken breast at dinner, or 140..

I wrote down 240.. But I dunno.. I have a funny feeling I meant to do my regular 125g, but went over just a bit..

My first big brain fart on the RFL diet, 4 weeks in.. I was due.. :)

So I'm going to assume it was 140g, as getting my 200g of protein in for the day is more important to me than the extra 165 calories.. If I'm wrong, oh well.. It'll be my first free meal on the diet as well, then.. LOL

[Felinecougar]

I'll keep that in mind, thanks..

OMG...I at 2000 calories per day and took in 200 grams of protein before my last show...yes the day before that is what I ate.

AS a female light weight bodybuilder I have never ever dropped my cals below 1200.

Keep it in mind sir? Dougz...in all honestly your front double bicep pose was not half bad...but if you keep on this diet your going to look like the a bean pole. Then what? Starting from nothing to something is going to be harder to be anything imo.

[Felinecougar]

One more progress pic..

Finally figured out how to get them side by side.. Shame about the shifting perspective, though.. Wish I'd thought to keep the distance from the camera consistent!! :(

This is April to end of August..

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/dougzdanivsky/spartanprince.jpg

nice progress but on this diet your loosing mass not just fat..

[dougz]

Sept 1/09

Activity: non-refeed WO.

My Gowear Fit showed up today.. So far, so good as far as software user-friendliness, the fit of the armband, etc. I hooked it up after an hour or 2, and it appears to working fine.. I don't think I'll bother wearing it when I'm sleeping.. I don't think it would be very comfortable, and even if I DON'T get a good sleep (get up to pee, etc.), there's not much I can do about it, no matter if the GWF logs each sleep interruption or not, so...

Workout:

Leg Press

90x8
180x6
270x5
360x8x3

Leg Curl

80x8
100x8
120x8x2

Bench Press

BARx5
95x5
145x3
165x2
195x3x3
145x7

Lat Pulldowns

"10"x8
"12"x8x3

Single Arm Lateral Raises

20x8
30x8
40x8x2

Biceps curl (alternating sides)

25x8
35x8x2

Triceps Pulldowns

"10" x5
"12" x8x2

Back Extension

10x2

Hanging Chair Raises

10x3

Diet:

365g egg whites
50 salsa

460 chicken breast (2 meals)
65g spinach

500ml Gatorade
30g whey protein powder

Workout

260g dry curd cottage cheese


Supps:

200mg caffeine
20mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1215 .. F: 21g C: 50g P: 196g .. 15/16/66

[gsxr750]

I did my best to resize to scale, and animate it for you Dougz. Best of luck!

Here it is:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1355/dougz.gif

[Felinecougar]

OMG...I at 2000 calories per day and took in 200 grams of protein before my last show...yes the day before that is what I ate.

AS a female light weight bodybuilder I have never ever dropped my cals below 1200.

Keep it in mind sir? Dougz...in all honestly your front double bicep pose was not half bad...but if you keep on this diet your going to look like the a bean pole. Then what? Starting from nothing to something is going to be harder to be anything imo.

gsxr you have not addressed my concern about your calories being to low?

I couldn't put my 150 lb girls on your diet.

[gsxr750]

Hey i'm not on this diet lol! I just posted an animated pic for him. He already posted his opinion on his calories..

[dougz]

I did my best to resize to scale, and animate it for you Dougz. Best of luck!

Hey, thanks, man!

If I PM you could you email me the .gif or whatever you call those files?

[Felinecougar]

Hey i'm not on this diet lol! I just posted an animated pic for him. He already posted his opinion on his calories..


Sorry gsxr dear...good for you for helping him resize his photos.

DOUGZ.......Answer up son...why are you eating so few calories?

Your going to end up being skinny not lean.

[dougz]

gsxr you have not addressed my concern about your calories being to low?

I didn't address it because frankly I don't share your concern, and my reasoning for the calorie target and everything else in between has also been stated clearly in my original post and subsequent minor flame war..

I do appreciate your comments, though.. I know I'm not half as knowledgeable as many of you guys, but I know what I want to do, and unless I hear compelling reasons to change the plan, I'm gonna see it through, and then I can say whether it worked or not.. :)

4 weeks in and it seems to be working like a hot damn.. :)

So I'm gonna do the whole 6 weeks, and go from there (diet break, followed by either another quick 4 week diet to get in the low teens, then I'll start bulking, or I'll start bulking right away (500 cal surplus)...

[gsxr750]

Hey, thanks, man!

If I PM you could you email me the .gif or whatever you call those files?

Go here and right click, save as:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1355/dougz.gif

[dougz]

K, thanks again!

I'm not the most computer literate of fellows..

I'm still waiting on my brother to do those other side by sides for me..

[Felinecougar]

I didn't address it because frankly I don't share your concern, and my reasoning for the calorie target and everything else in between has also been stated clearly in my original post and subsequent minor flame war..

I do appreciate your comments, though.. I know I'm not half as knowledgeable as many of you guys, but I know what I want to do, and unless I hear compelling reasons to change the plan, I'm gonna see it through, and then I can say whether it worked or not.. :)

Thanks....I'm not a guy and i didn't notice the flaming. I would not put a 150 lb girl on your diet plan is still MO. Enough said....go on and do as you will. Seems your not in need of any ones help.

Good for you...hero.

[steve_d]

Thanks....I'm not a guy and i didn't notice the flaming. I would not put a 150 lb girl on your diet plan is still MO. Enough said....go on and do as you will. Seems your not in need of any ones help.

Good for you...hero.

while not many of us agree with his diet, he hasn't really asked for advice. He is simply logging his results. The diet will work, he will lose fat which is his number one concern.

I do have another question though that I don't think had been answered, Dougz...Do you think that your diet would be more effective, and perhaps more reasonable if you incorporated cardio (aside from wii yoga and short walks) with an increase in calories. Say for example, couldn't you add 500 calories per day, and then burn 500 on the stepper low intensity? You would be getting cardiovascular benefits, plus the slight increase in metabolism the rest of the day, and thus overall be healthier.

Plus you wouldn't need to starve so much.

[dougz]

I do have another question though that I don't think had been answered, Dougz...Do you think that your diet would be more effective, and perhaps more reasonable if you incorporated cardio (aside from wii yoga and short walks) with an increase in calories. Say for example, couldn't you add 500 calories per day, and then burn 500 on the stepper low intensity? You would be getting cardiovascular benefits, plus the slight increase in metabolism the rest of the day, and thus overall be healthier.

That's a good question, Steve..

I can only go by what's recommended on the diet (and especially what is NOT recommended - which would be excessive activity)..

I just have to trust that if Lyle McDonald (the creator of the diet) thought that was a better way to go about losing fat without losing muscle, he would have said as much.. :)

Like I've said, I feel it's wrong to tweak and second guess things, and then give up and blame the diet, lifting program, etc. when you don't get results..

Better, I say, to follow it to the letter, and see what happens..

If it doesn't work, THEN you bitch, and make adjustments..

I HATE cardio, and I'm glad I don't have to do any (Lyle does recommend it even on RFL for women and the really fat people) but by no means am I writing it off as useless..

When I get off the diet and start a modest bulking routine (500 cal surplus), I'll put my nose to the grindstone again..

But for now I want to lose fat at an accelerated pace (so as to mitigate the metabolism and hormone issues you get on prolonged deficits, and to get back to lifting for muscle gain ASAP) without significant muscle loss, so I want to make sure I'm not doing too much besides the 2x a week lifting sessions..

[HYEPWRD]

To chime in...I agree with doug. The creator of the diet does nutrition for a living and backs up his recomendations with real world studies.

Also consider that doug does 1200cal a day for 5 days then has a cheat meal and a carb load up day. His actual average cals is aprox 1650cal a day(for a week). Given his weight bmr and activity level--he is at approx 1000k a day loss pace.

As doug said--the proof is in the pudding. Ive found that my waist is the best indicator of fat loss vs muscle loss. If I lose 2lbs and Im not down 1/2 inch on my waist---theres a problem.

[dougz]

Sept 02/09

Activity: Wii Yoga, 20 min brisk walk, cleaned fish tank..

Based on my concerns about whether or not I'm at 15% or not, I'm thinking about just finishing up this week (that will be 5 weeks of RFL), then taking a diet break..

First full day of GWF in a couple hours from now.. Will be interesting to see what I burned..

Diet:

375g chicken breast (3 meals)
95g spinach
100g salsa

450g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

200mg caffeine
20mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1160 .. F: 25g C: 20g P: 198g ..20/10/70

[dougz]

Sept 3/09

Activity: brisk 20 min walk x 2.

Diet:

130g chicken breast
85g spinach
50g salsa

605g egg whites (2 meals)
470g raw tomatoes

500g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)

Supps:

200mg caffeine
20mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1140 .. F: 18g C: 33g P: 201g ..15/15/70

[HYEPWRD]

Hey doug--very curious about the calorie tracker. Give us a full report. What did is say for calorie expenditure?? Ill guess 2300cal.

[dougz]

Hey doug--very curious about the calorie tracker

http://www.gowearfit.com/

It's pretty cool..

They ship to Canada now to (though of course they didn't, until 2 weeks AFTER I had to get my bud in the States to mail me my GWF..).

Calorie expenditure was tagged at 2500 in 24 hours, and that was for a regular no WO day..

I'm thinking it'll be about 3000 for a WO day, and ounce I'm off the diet I WILL be starting up the cardio again on non WO days, so I'll be able to increase calories accordingly on "regular" days, as well..

[dougz]

Sept 4/09

Activity: brisk 20 min walks x 2.

Diet:

370g egg whites
60 spinach

255g chicken breast (2 meals)
340g raw tomatoes

440g dry curd cottage cheese

Supps:

200mg caffeine
20mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1140 .. F: 22g C: 23g P: 200g ..18/8/73

[steve_d]

I just have to trust that if Lyle McDonald (the creator of the diet) thought that was a better way to go about losing fat without losing muscle, he would have said as much.. :)



I am officially totally against this Lyle guy now. I didn't agree with the diet before, but was going to give it the benefit of the doubt that there is more than 1 way to do things...But if someone suggests specifically to NOT do cardio and to limit cardio as part of a method to lose weight, but then turns around and says its ok for really fat people, or women, to do cardio, then to me this is just a gimmick targetted for lazy people.

I am not trying to attack you in any way Dougz, but basically it seems to me you seeked out a diet that fits the way you want to do things (this isn't a bad thing, its actually a good thing since the diet you most want to follow will be the most successful one)...The only problem is you've found a diet for someone actually LESS dedicated. I can guarantee you that I could create a more effective diet than this that would make anyone lose more bodyfat in less time with less muscle loss and more calories. The only problem with my diet is that you can't be lazy.

I am not saying your diet is "easy"...I'm just saying its more simple. Eat less, lose more weight. Its just less healthy and all the research in the world can't prove that its a healthier way to lose weight then what I or most of the people on here would do.

[dougz]

I am officially totally against this Lyle guy now.

LOL

No offense taken..

I will take issue with you're putting words in my mouth..

I say specifically that Lyle is in NO way is against cardio, nor does he say it's only for women or fat people..

Just that for crash diets it's not absolutely necessary or even recommended..

And you know what? I'm even misquoting him! :shock

I just reread the passage..

He says it's lighter women (and NO mention at all of fat people) who need it for the diet to really work on dropping fat..

You know what, I'll just cut and paste the section on aerobic activity.. :)

Sorry for the confusion my faulty memory has caused!!

It should also clear up some of the other aspects of your beef with him and aerobic activity during crash diets..

I'll say this also, I didn't choose the diet because it let me off the hook, cardio-wise..

It was an unexpected plus.. :)

I chose the diet because I had been dieting successfully for 3 months at a mild deficit (25 lbs lost), but was sick of dieting and just treading water at the gym..

I wanted to get it done and over fast, for those reasons plus what I was reading about the detrimental effects of prolonged dieting on hormonal levels and metabolism slow down..

I could be doing even more moderate cardio (brisk walk to slow jogs) than I've been doing (as you'll read below) IF I wasn't seeing results.. But I am, and for the duration of the diet that's good enough for me..

Like I say, when I start eating at a surplus again, and have the need to keep my metabolism firing on all cylinders so as to keep the fat from coming back along with the muscle I'll go back to the treadmill and do the bare minimum (I really, really hate cardio)..



Can exercise hurt?

But can exercise be detrimental to weight or fat loss? In the case of a crash diet (or any extremely large deficit), the answer is a resounding yes. At least one study has found that the addition of a large amount of aerobic activity (roughly 6 hours per week) to a protein sparing modified fast increased the drop in metabolic rate that occurred. It didn’t increase weight loss over the length of the study (4 weeks) either. Basically the caloric burn of the
exercise led to an adaptive decrease in metabolic rate. Of course, the exercise also burned excess calories so the end result was the same.

As mentioned above, once you’ve generated a monster daily caloric deficit, burning a few hundred more calories through aerobic activity is unlikely to have much of an impact. I should mention that lighter dieters (usually women) often have to add some amount of aerobic activity along with a caloric deficit to achieve reasonable weekly fat loss although
this generally shouldn’t be the case on the rapid fat loss program.
Weight training hasn’t been studied as extensively in this regards and I’m unaware of any studies on interval training in terms of how it might interact with the rapid fat loss program such as the one described in this booklet. Although I’ll make more specific comments below, I’ll say this upfront: unless it helps with adherence to the diet, I don’t see much of a point in doing anything but the mildest aerobic activity on the crash diet.
Thirty to forty minutes a few times per week (maybe daily) would be it.
Related to this, I’ve often seen what seems to be a thermodynamic impossibility, the combination of extremely large caloric deficits with an extremely large amount of activity (or a very high intensity of activity) often slows down or even stops fat loss completely.
Yes, I know, it seems impossible but I’ve seen it happen enough times (including in myself) to know it happens. Basically, if you want to create an extremely large caloric deficit through food restriction,
you absolutely must not do too much activity (folks who have followed the diet in this book have found this out the hard way, by ignoring my recommendations below and doing too much activity, they slowed their fat and weight loss). If you want to do a lot of activity, you cannot cut calories too severely. Again, I know this doesn’t make much sense and I’m still trying to pin down the mechanisms of why this happens. But the simple fact is that it does and if you want to avoid problems, you must follow the recommendations I’m going to give below in terms of how much exercise you can or should do. Frankly, weight training a maximum of 2-3 times per week is going to be the best form of exercise on the rapid fat loss plan. A small amount of low intensity aerobic activity (I mean brisk walking), if it helps with diet adherence is acceptable as well. Intervals are inappropriate and should not be done, they simply can’t be recovered from on so few
calories, especially not if proper weight training is being performed. I’ll give more specific recommendations below.
Why weight training? Well, outside of the reasons discussed above, the reason is that we want to lose predominantly body fat. Maintaining (for experienced exercisers) or increasing (for beginners) LBM on the rapid fat loss plan is the primary goal and nothing will accomplish that more effectively than weight training. The massive daily caloric deficit will take care of the fat loss, more calorie burning activity simply isn’t necessary or useful; as discussed above, done in excess it can be detrimental.

[dougz]

Here's some other stuff on aerobics/exercise and the RFL diet:

in fact, there's the whole E- book to look through, if you want:

http://download511.mediafire.com/fjm...s_handbook.rar

I wish I'd known about it before I did the right thing and paid for the book.. LOL




Exercise and weight loss

You’ve probably heard, read or seen that you must exercise to lose weight/fat, or that exercising will drastically improve the amount or rate of weight or fat loss. It’s important, once again, to make a distinction between weight and fat loss, as you’ll see in a second.

People obviously can and do lose weight all the time without exercise (keeping the weight off is a separate issue I’ll come back to below) so exercise certainly isn’t required by any stretch. Whether or not programs that include exercise are optimal, better or more effective is an entirely different debate.

The question I want to address here is whether or not exercise has much of an effect on the rate of weight loss. For the most part, exercise has, at best, a small effect. Some studies find that it increases the total weight loss slightly while most find little to no effect. As I’ll mention below, some studies find that exercise can actually reduce the total weight loss
(note: as discussed previously in this book, not the same as fat loss).
Why? Why doesn’t exercise improve the total rate of weight loss? The reason is one of simple mathematics and reality. Under most dieting conditions, unless a tremendous amount or a very high intensity of exercise can be done such that a very large amount of additional calories are burned, exercise simply fails to have much of an impact. That is, unless you’re capable of literally hours per day of exercise, sufficient to burn a ton
of calories, the calorie burn from exercise will generally be quite small compared to the deficit created by food restriction. To burn 500-1000 calories per day with low intensity exercise would require hours of activity, to reduce food intake by that much may be much easier, at least in the short-term. And the average overweight individual who is sedentary simply won’t be able to burn enough calories with exercise to greatly impact on the overall deficit, at least not in the initial stages of their exercise program. Ironically, the only people who are able to burn a ton of calories with exercise are trained athletes, and they generally aren’t the ones who need to lose a lot of fat in the first place. Of course, over time, as people become fitter, both the amount and/or intensity of exercise can increase, increasing caloric expenditure. But this is not helpful for crash dieting. You
can’t improve fitness sufficiently in a two-week span to get much benefit from exercise. This is even more the case on the rapid fat loss plan where the daily deficit is already pretty monstrous. That is, once you’ve generated a daily deficit in the realm of 1500-2000 calories/day (or higher in some cases), burning a few hundred more calories per day with exercise simply doesn’t amount to much. Which isn’t to say that exercise is useless but it’s
unrealistic to expect the addition of most exercise regimes to drastically increase the rate of weight loss. Quite in fact, some studies suggest that there will be less weight loss if exercise is included during the diet but this is somewhat misleading. The reason is that, in beginner exercisers, exercise can cause an increase in LBM/muscle mass and this affects the amount of total weight that is lost. Less weight will be lost but only because LBM is being gained (or less LBM is being lost). I suspect that this is why some rapid weight loss centers actively recommend against exercise: they want to generate the greatest scale weight drops and that means avoiding anything that spares or increases LBM. Of course, this is totally misleading, as I mentioned above. Maintaining (or even increasing) LBM on a diet, at the expense of fat loss shouldn’t generally be construed as a
bad thing. It’s simply one of those places where focusing only on weight loss leads folks to bad conclusions and even worse recommendations. Which is part of why I spent all of Chapter 1 explaining the differences between weight and fat loss in the first place. I should mention that, in the process of gaining weight, some proportion of that weight is LBM (some of which is muscle and some of which is simply connective tissue to support
the extra weight) and most obesity experts accept some LBM loss as part of the weight loss. An LBM loss of 25-30% is usually considered acceptable in obese individuals since that represents the “extra” LBM they gained getting fat in the first place. But I digress.

[steve_d]

Here's some other stuff on aerobics/exercise and the RFL diet:

in fact, there's the whole E- book to look through, if you want:

http://download511.mediafire.com/fjm...s_handbook.rar

I wish I'd known about it before I did the right thing and paid for the book.. LOL

I wish I could basically quote that whole paragraph you posted because everything about it makes me scratch my head.

500-1000 calories a day would take hours to achieve?? Well, Someone who weighs 200 pounds would easily be able to burn 600 calories in an hour on a treadmill inclined without braking a sweat. 10 calories per minute is the minimum I do, and I can do that without sweating, or getting my heart rate past about 120-130 beats per minute. So I call BS on that.

The only thing that sort of makes sense in a wrong way is that yes, if you are 1500-2000 calories in deficit (ie you weigh 300 pounds and eat about 1000 calories per day) then sure, what's an extra 500 calories through exercise going to do...May as well sit at home and rest your precious metabolism.

I don't have 100 studies to prove my point, all I have is common sense off-hand. But if you need to lose whatever amount of weight, there is absolutely no point in anyone doing it QUICKLY. If there is one thing that I can almost agree with in this diet, is that it is for intense weight loss in a hurry. The only people that should do this are the critically ill that need to lose weight for a life and death matter.

For people like yourself, and many others who probably buy into the program, dieting should be a lifestyle. You should never need to lose more than 2 pounds per week. Even 1 per week is plenty. Its a lifestyle, and unless you are losing weight for a show, then there is no point in losing it fast. If you need to lose 20 pounds, take the time, lose it over a period of 3 years. and keep it off the rest of your life. Basically the moral of the story is never diet.

Eat the way you will for the rest of your life and weigh the weight you will weigh according to that lifestyle. there is a reason diets don't work.

[C-money]

Agree 110 percent.. great post steve




I don't have 100 studies to prove my point, all I have is common sense off-hand. But if you need to lose whatever amount of weight, there is absolutely no point in anyone doing it QUICKLY. If there is one thing that I can almost agree with in this diet, is that it is for intense weight loss in a hurry. The only people that should do this are the critically ill that need to lose weight for a life and death matter.

For people like yourself, and many others who probably buy into the program, dieting should be a lifestyle. You should never need to lose more than 2 pounds per week. Even 1 per week is plenty. Its a lifestyle, and unless you are losing weight for a show, then there is no point in losing it fast. If you need to lose 20 pounds, take the time, lose it over a period of 3 years. and keep it off the rest of your life. Basically the moral of the story is never diet.

Eat the way you will for the rest of your life and weigh the weight you will weigh according to that lifestyle. there is a reason diets don't work.

[HYEPWRD]

Steve,

the bottom line is this....2lbs of fat is 7000calories. If one wants to lose 2lbs of fat in one week you need to have a caloric balance sheet of -7000. So thats a 1000cal deficet a day. There are 3 ways to approach this problem.

1-Keep eating main calories(2700cals?) and increase your energy expeniture( 100 mins on the treadmil).

2-Mildly cut cals to 300-500 below maint and increase energy expenditure(30-50 min on treadmill). This is what most guys here use when dieting for a show.

3-Drastically cut calories (1000 below maint) and keep energy expenditure steady(Lyle's approach).

As you can see--All 3 approaches achieve the same final balance sheet. The differance will be which will eat up the least amount of Muscle. If we put 3 people on each of these diets for 4 weeks--All 3 people would drop 8lbs of WEIGHT. The question becomes-->of that 8lbs which method had the highest proportion of FAT LOSS??

According to Mr Macdonald.....Studies show that --Intense exercise in those people in a high deficit (remember all three methods have the same 1000cal deficit) results in much faster shift to catabolism. We shall see if this is true in dougs case study.

As far as your comment about losing fat quickly. Under this plan he should be losing about 2lbs of fat a week. This is pretty standard and the ideal in the BB world.

lastly---Having been on similar cutting diets--calling it a lazy mans diet is quite unfair. I will say it is FARRRRRR EASIER to eat 2500calories a day and go on a treadmil for 2 hrs then it is to eat 1200cals and 20-30 grams of carbs a day and do little exercise. Gym is just a couple hours---hunger pains and carb cravings are EVERY MINUTE.

just my 2 cents.

[dougz]

500-1000 calories a day would take hours to achieve?? Well, Someone who weighs 200 pounds would easily be able to burn 600 calories in an hour on a treadmill inclined without braking a sweat


500-1000 calories a day would take hourS to achieve

600 cals in an hour, 1200 in 2 hours.. Splitting hairs a bit, in my opinion.. :)

And that's assuming you're correct, about the calorie burn, and the not breaking a sweat..

I know I sweat, incline or no.. :)

If you can pull off a burn like that at such a low BPM, great.. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume you're in the 5th percentile..

Also you forget that a mild pace as advised while on an extreme calorie deficit, and presumably no incline..

Oh, and one more thing.. There are 3 options while doing RFL.. Aerobic activity is 1, doing nothing is 2, and doing weight lifting is the 3rd.. But you shouldn't weight lifting AND aerobics..


But if you need to lose whatever amount of weight, there is absolutely no point in anyone doing it QUICKLY.

Read the beginning where he lays out some valid reasons (in my opinion) why you may want to lose weight at an accelerated rate..

Mine was, as I said, a way to top off the 3 months of dieting I already did, and have it done in 4.5 months rather than 8..


If you need to lose 20 pounds, take the time, lose it over a period of 3 years. and keep it off the rest of your life. Basically the moral of the story is never diet.

Like I say, I can't agree.. There's no joy in counting calories, eating at a deficit, etc. for 3 years.. And if you believe what is said about the damage extended deficits (even mild 500 cal ones) do to your hormones and overall metabolic health (and I do) then.... there's not much more I can say on that score..


dieting should be a lifestyle

Exchange "dieting" with "healthy eating habits", and I'm in full agreement.. :)

[O-Train]

I suggest you keep your two cents.


Steve,

the bottom line is this....2lbs of fat is 7000calories. If one wants to lose 2lbs of fat in one week you need to have a caloric balance sheet of -7000. So thats a 1000cal deficet a day. There are 3 ways to approach this problem.

1-Keep eating main calories(2700cals?) and increase your energy expeniture( 100 mins on the treadmil).

2-Mildly cut cals to 300-500 below maint and increase energy expenditure(30-50 min on treadmill). This is what most guys here use when dieting for a show.

3-Drastically cut calories (1000 below maint) and keep energy expenditure steady(Lyle's approach).

As you can see--All 3 approaches achieve the same final balance sheet. The differance will be which will eat up the least amount of Muscle. If we put 3 people on each of these diets for 4 weeks--All 3 people would drop 8lbs of WEIGHT. The question becomes-->of that 8lbs which method had the highest proportion of FAT LOSS??

According to Mr Macdonald.....Studies show that --Intense exercise in those people in a high deficit (remember all three methods have the same 1000cal deficit) results in much faster shift to catabolism. We shall see if this is true in dougs case study.

As far as your comment about losing fat quickly. Under this plan he should be losing about 2lbs of fat a week. This is pretty standard and the ideal in the BB world.

lastly---Having been on similar cutting diets--calling it a lazy mans diet is quite unfair. I will say it is FARRRRRR EASIER to eat 2500calories a day and go on a treadmil for 2 hrs then it is to eat 1200cals and 20-30 grams of carbs a day and do little exercise. Gym is just a couple hours---hunger pains and carb cravings are EVERY MINUTE.

just my 2 cents.

[dougz]

I suggest you keep your two cents.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, fellas..

[HYEPWRD]

I suggest you keep your two cents.

Wow!! such a well thought out, throughly investigated and thought provoking post.....thank you so much for posting....

[steve_d]

Steve,

the bottom line is this....2lbs of fat is 7000calories. If one wants to lose 2lbs of fat in one week you need to have a caloric balance sheet of -7000. So thats a 1000cal deficet a day. There are 3 ways to approach this problem.

1-Keep eating main calories(2700cals?) and increase your energy expeniture( 100 mins on the treadmil).

2-Mildly cut cals to 300-500 below maint and increase energy expenditure(30-50 min on treadmill). This is what most guys here use when dieting for a show.

3-Drastically cut calories (1000 below maint) and keep energy expenditure steady(Lyle's approach).

As you can see--All 3 approaches achieve the same final balance sheet. The differance will be which will eat up the least amount of Muscle. If we put 3 people on each of these diets for 4 weeks--All 3 people would drop 8lbs of WEIGHT. The question becomes-->of that 8lbs which method had the highest proportion of FAT LOSS??

According to Mr Macdonald.....Studies show that --Intense exercise in those people in a high deficit (remember all three methods have the same 1000cal deficit) results in much faster shift to catabolism. We shall see if this is true in dougs case study.

As far as your comment about losing fat quickly. Under this plan he should be losing about 2lbs of fat a week. This is pretty standard and the ideal in the BB world.

lastly---Having been on similar cutting diets--calling it a lazy mans diet is quite unfair. I will say it is FARRRRRR EASIER to eat 2500calories a day and go on a treadmil for 2 hrs then it is to eat 1200cals and 20-30 grams of carbs a day and do little exercise. Gym is just a couple hours---hunger pains and carb cravings are EVERY MINUTE.

just my 2 cents.

the logic is all there. calories in vs. calories out , etc etc. Yes, they will all lose, but as i've pointed out in bold above, you say intense activity in high deficit shifts to catobolism. Duh! But my point is not for him to keep the deficit and do lots of cardio. My point is to eat more, and do some calorie burning. Kinda like option 2.

And yes, I said he would lose fat quickly. And he will...But my point is that what is the purpose? For a show it only makes sense, because we dip below a normal %BF for a short period of time. We're forced to do things drastically. But for the regular person trying to go from 15 or 20% down to a healthy 10-12%, whats the point of doing it fast? If you want to be 12% for life, then eat the way a 12% person eats for life, and you'll eventually get there.

Further to this, in dougz later post, its not about counting calories for 3 years. I didnt say diet for 3 years. Like I said, make it a habit, I don't count calories, and I stay at a healthy 10-12% most of the time. Make it a lifestyle, kinda like brushing your teeth. I don't put a stopwatch when I brush to make sure its 2 minutes each time, but after a while, you kinda learn how long to brush before they are clean.

[steve_d]

Like I say, I can't agree.. There's no joy in counting calories, eating at a deficit, etc. for 3 years.. And if you believe what is said about the damage extended deficits (even mild 500 cal ones) do to your hormones and overall metabolic health (and I do) then.... there's not much more I can say on that score..


Exchange "dieting" with "healthy eating habits", and I'm in full agreement.. :)

Again, I think you're not seeing what I mean...At 215 pounds you might need say 2700 to maintain that, if you go down to a 500 deficit, so eating 2200 calories a day, your not going to screw up your metabolic health. What will happen is that you will lose weight until you reach an equilibrirum. So 2200 might support your body at 195 or something.

So that is exactly what I am suggesting. Rather than starve, eat slightly less than what your body needs to be in equilibrum at 20%....

If I eat 3500 per day, I gain, but eventually I stop gaining. I can sit happy at about 185 pounds eating 3500. But in order to be a healthier 175, I'll eat say 2750. And after a while, I reach that weight and stop. It's all about equilibrium. And my point is that think about what weight you'd like to be, and eat the calories you need to eat to be that person forever. You might need to count calories at first, but eventually you'll know.


And as far as cardio goes...It's healthy regardless of bodyfat levels, so no one can argue against that. I'd rather be 11% with a healthy heart that will take me into my 90s then be 10% and be unhealthy and die of heart disease when I am 60. There is no researcher in the world that could argue that fact. Who is healthier 1500 calories little activity, or 2000 calories with moderate activity.

I can't see how this is even a debate!! If I haven't said enough compelling arguments to dispute your diet, no one ever will!!

[C-money]

Again, I think you're not seeing what I mean...At 215 pounds you might need say 2700 to maintain that, if you go down to a 500 deficit, so eating 2200 calories a day, your not going to screw up your metabolic health. What will happen is that you will lose weight until you reach an equilibrirum. So 2200 might support your body at 195 or something.

So that is exactly what I am suggesting. Rather than starve, eat slightly less than what your body needs to be in equilibrum at 20%....

If I eat 3500 per day, I gain, but eventually I stop gaining. I can sit happy at about 185 pounds eating 3500. But in order to be a healthier 175, I'll eat say 2750. And after a while, I reach that weight and stop. It's all about equilibrium. And my point is that think about what weight you'd like to be, and eat the calories you need to eat to be that person forever. You might need to count calories at first, but eventually you'll know.


And as far as cardio goes...It's healthy regardless of bodyfat levels, so no one can argue against that. I'd rather be 11% with a healthy heart that will take me into my 90s then be 10% and be unhealthy and die of heart disease when I am 60. There is no researcher in the world that could argue that fact. Who is healthier 1500 calories little activity, or 2000 calories with moderate activity.

I can't see how this is even a debate!! If I haven't said enough compelling arguments to dispute your diet, no one ever will!!

Im with ya on this one steve... people take years to put on all this weight then they think the quick fix is the answer and they will keep the weight off... meh chances are slim to none, the kind of mentally in this type of diet could lead some people to a bigtime eating disorder.. eat balanced.. train hard.. give it time.. voila... and you kept most of your hard earn muscle in the process

[O-Train]

Wow!! such a well thought out, throughly investigated and thought provoking post.....thank you so much for posting....

It was a more polite way of saying don't provide an opinion when you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

[dougz]

I suggest you keep your two cents.


It was a more polite way of saying don't provide an opinion when you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

Wow indeed..

Those have to be the douchiest posts I've seen in quite a while (and I lurked on T-Nation(!), before mistakenly deciding to come and be among what I hoped were my better behaved Canadian brethren)....

I really was hoping the Holier than Thou tripe you spouted earlier in the thread really was just a heat of the moment thread crap..

But here again comes the "shut up and let the experts talk" condescending bullshit.. :ji

At least the majority here have the good grace to keep their snide remarks to themselves, or have kept a respectful tone when voicing their opinions, contrary or otherwise..

Yeah, your muscular (I assume?), and a self-proclaimed expert.. And a flaming asshole..

Triple threat guy! :a+

[dougz]

your not going to screw up your metabolic health.

It's up for debate.. :)

I thought that too, and did a 500 cal deficit 3 months..

It worked great, and I lost 25lbs.. But the weight loss started to plateau, and after reading books, etc from nutritionists like Alan Aragon and Leigh Peele I came to realize that a possible answer to this plateau was my metabolism was slowing.. So I took a 2 week diet break where I ate at maintenence or greater, to "reset" everything..

At that point I resolved to lose the remainder of the fat I wanted to lose at an accelerated pace..

I didn't have to, true.. I could have just gone and done the same 500 cal deficit again, and after the metabolic reset it probably would have kept on working..

I can't say..

Nor can I say whether or not it WAS my metabolism slowing down, or whether this phenomenon occurs at such modest deficits in the long term..

I can only go by my personal experiences..


If I eat 3500 per day, I gain, but eventually I stop gaining.

Assuming that's a surplus, why would you stop gaining?


And as far as cardio goes...It's healthy regardless of bodyfat levels, so no one can argue against that.

So far as I can tell, nobody has.. :)

My point is for the duration of the diet (which is 6 weeks, TOPS), I can't do MUCH cardio AND weight lifting sessions..

I could do moderate to heavy cardio, OR light to moderate cardio, and twice weekly weight training.. But not both, for reasons explained already (and which your welcome to disagree with).


whats the point of doing it fast?

1. Try making gains in the gym eating below maintenence.. It's hard, if not impossible, and it wears on you, just treading water month after month..

Why drag it out, if there's a way to do it quickly and safely? My strength hasn't dipped much at all, I supplement with multivitamins, sodium, potassium, essential fatty acids, etc. I've lost little to no muscle... Where is the downside?

2. The ad-nausium mention of metabolic slow down.. It may not be something you agree with, but again, I have to go with what I myself experienced..


eat balanced.. train hard.. give it time..

That's the plan, this time around.. :)

Just have to get down to a good base body fat level first..

[steve_d]

It's up for debate.. :)

I thought that too, and did a 500 cal deficit 3 months........

........It worked great, and I lost 25lbs.. But the weight loss started to plateau.....


.......I could have just gone and done the same 500 cal deficit again, and after the metabolic reset it probably would have kept on working......




Again, your not seeing my point. you lost 25 pounds because you were in deficit. You stopped losing because that deficit no longer became a deficit. Did you read what I wrote?

Here's my experience. I am eating on average 2500 calories per day give or take. I am holding steady at about 172-174 pounds. I am not hungry, I am not full, I am in equilibrium. I am not in a reduced metabolic state. I am eating the way a typical 172 pound man at my height and muscle mass and cardio vascular level would eat. Nothing else to it.

5 months ago, I was 185 and I was eating about 3250 calories a day give or take.


You asked why if I am in a surplus, why I would stop gaining? Same logic. If I ate 3500 calories a day right now, what do you think would happen. I would start gaining (surplus). Eventually, I would stop gaining ...why? Cuz once I get fat enough, those 3500 calories would be in equilibrium with my new weight. You think if i ate 5000 calories per day I would gain indefinitely? Hell no. I would be 200 max, and then I would be fat, and I would actually require 5000 calories to keep my muscle, and bodyfat levels constant.

There is so much common sense to all of this, your just forgetting that this whole calorie surplus deficit thing is not static. How many calories do you think a typical bodybuilder (say natural for the sake of simplicity) eats when they are contest shape? how about 1 week post contest. At 4% bodyfat, most people would be in a surplus when they are at 2000 calories a day. at my bodyweight.

[dougz]

you lost 25 pounds because you were in deficit. You stopped losing because that deficit no longer became a deficit. Did you read what I wrote?
Wait.. Are you assuming I didn't take into account my reduced weight when calculating my maintenence calorie targets?

Sorry.. I should have mentioned that (I thought it went without saying).. Even when I reduced my caloric intake so that it was in proportionally in line with my reduced weight (I was using the HB equation at the time) and same activity level, after 2 weeks I was still not losing, and started digging around as to why..

Metabolic slowdown was one of the only other solutions that made any sense..

I could have done more cardio to counteract the effect of the slowdown, and increase the calorie defecit , but I went with RFL, and I haven't dropped dead yet, as I say..

Cardio is neccessary for cardiovascular health, I agree 100%.. And it DOES allow one to increase their caloric intake..

But it isn't something you want to be doing alot of on a diet that puts you dangerously close to catabolism..

When I'm off the diet, I'll start up with it again, and no worse for wear, having avoided it for all of 6 weeks..


Cuz once I get fat enough, those 3500 calories would be in equilibrium with my new weight

Ok, I see what your saying..

But I don't see how that, I'm sorry, rather obvious observation affects the arguement (unless again, you assumed I wasn't making the adjustments)..

I'm surprised at how low my maintenence calories are now, at 187, on a normal, no cardio, no WO day, compared to what they were when I was 230..

[steve_d]

Wait.. Are you assuming I didn't take into account my reduced weight when calculating my maintenence calorie targets?


But it isn't something you want to be doing alot of on a diet that puts you dangerously close to catabolism..


I'm surprised at how low my maintenence calories are now, at 187, on a normal, no cardio, no WO day, compared to what they were when I was 230..

If you did take into account the reduced weight then yes, part of it is the reduced metabolism from dieting too fast. In that case its all about set point. Basically, if I am 185, I am never hungry, and I can probably go a whole day without eating without too much trouble. If I am a165, I am starved beyond belief, and if I go a few hours I am in trouble (alot of it has to do with glycogen). BUT once I am on the rise, and say post contest I am slowly getting up to 185 or so, I am always hungry, until again, I reach my set point at 185. The reason? Part of it is the metabolic slowdown you mention (which is because you lose the weight quickly). Other part is that my body likes to be at that weight. so for me, my body likes to be say 13% to be happy. For others, maybe that is 15%...And then you get a couple lucky ones where their set point might be 10% or lower...Where they practically never get hungry once they are 10%. Its not becasue they have fast metabolism - its the fact that their set point is lower, and their brains aren't forcing them to be hungry past that point.

Now, I don't know what your set point is, but it is probably somewhere around where you started dieting (unless you were forcing food down and eating really bad on purpose). You can change your set point, but crash dieting (ie dieting 2 pounds a week, or going into real deficit) is not going to do that. You're body still wants to be where it was. The only really effective way of changing your set point in my mind is to either do more activity, or lose weight slowly so that your body eventually adapts to this new "lifestyle"...No matter what, I think the slower you lose, the better in the long run.

But be prepared that in the long run you may be eating far less calories then your used to at 225, that also may even go beyond the formula calculations for maintenance. What you might end up finding though is that your body is still comfortable eating those calories, and that 2000 calories a day actually doesnt FEEL like a reduced calorie diet.

PS: I am talking for someone like you or others that aren't competitive bodybuilders. For them, what I suggest is obviously not helpful for their goals. But neither is the diet approach you are taking.

PPS: as for doing cardio dangerously close to catabolism...Then don't eat to be so dangerously low to catabolism! If you agreed that cardio has alot of benefits to cardiovascular health, with the side effects of burning calories, then adjust your diet to meet the demands of your activity level, not vice versa.

[dougz]

If you did take into account the reduced weight then yes, part of it is the reduced metabolism from dieting too fast.

Well, as I said, it was a very mild 500 cal deficit, not fast or drastic by any stretch....

I did increase it to about 800 after about 2 weeks of no movement, before I read about metabolic slowdown, and then I took a full 2 week break from dieting, to reset everything..


Now, I don't know what your set point is, but it is probably somewhere around where you started dieting

I sure hope not! :)

That would be 230 lbs, 23% BF..


.No matter what, I think the slower you lose, the better in the long run.

Absolutely.. And in the long run, I won't be crash dieting.. :)

After this diet is done, I'll have lost 45lbs of fat, and perhaps some muscle.. But I'll never get that much weight to lose ever again, if I can help it..

In the long run, my "lifestyle" will be eating at a mild surplus (500 cal over whatever my maintenence happens to be at the time), and will be happy to gain a lbs of muscle every couple weeks, maybe (no idea where my potential is at, having been at it seriously for a year and a half, now).


But be prepared that in the long run you may be eating far less calories then your used to at 225,

I'll say!

I was maintaining at around 3100-3200 cals at 230 on a normal non WO day..

Now, according to my GWF I'm at 2800 cals on a non WO day..

Of course I plan to up this with cardio and more NEAT..


What you might end up finding though is that your body is still comfortable eating those calories, and that 2000 calories a day actually doesnt FEEL like a reduced calorie diet.

That would be interesting to try.. But like I say, I'll be trying to gain, not stay at maintenence, so I'll be shooting for that 500 cal surplus day in, and out.. Or perhaps maintenence on non WO days, and a surplus on WO days (3-4x a week).. I haven't decided yet..


as for doing cardio dangerously close to catabolism...Then don't eat to be so dangerously low to catabolism!

Or don't do as much cardio.. :)

Either approach is valid, in the short term (which you'd have to agree the RFL diet is) in my opinion..

[dougz]

Sept 05/09 ...... (Week 5 of RFL)

Weight: 187 (-25.5)

Good, good refeed day! Is there such thing as a bad one? :)

I screwed up my protein total.. I was running late for work and didn't have time to go on fitday and figure out what I needed for my non-refeed meal protein, so I had to make a guess for my last meal.. I should have erred on the side of caution.. Oh well.. :(

It was pizza day with the guys at work, and I briefly considered combining my refeed day and free meal.. LOL

But no, I watched them eat their pizza while I nibbled at my chicken breast.. :)

I think I'm going to start making my own pizzas when I get off this diet.. Then, knowing exactly how many calories each piece is (or way closer than a fitday estimation would be) I can be rest easy..

According to my GoWear Fit, my maintenence on a normal 24h non-WO day is 2800 cals, and 3300 on a WO day.

We'll see if this trends in the same direction for next week as well..


Diet:

365g egg whites
40g green onions
280g raw tomatoes

150g Aunt Jemima buttermilk pancake mix
1 egg
440g 1% milk
110g banana
110g blueberries

Workout

155g rolled oats
100g banana
215g chocolate milk
15g Metabolic Drive protein powder
80g Bryer's fat free ice cream

200g raisin bagels
300g 2% milk
70g organic blueberry jam
14g Metabolic Drive protein powder

100g chicken breast

Supps:

1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 3120 .. F: 38g C: 516g P: 188g ..18/8/73

Workout

Leg Press

90x8
180x6
270x5
360x4
390x8x3

Leg Curl

80x8
100x8
120x8x2

Bench Press

BARx5
95x5
145x3
165x2
195x3x3
145x7

Lat Pulldowns

"10"x8
"12"x8x3

Single Arm Lateral Cable Raises

"3"x8
"4"x8x2

Biceps Barbell Curl

50x8
70x8x2

Tricep Pulldowns

"12"x10
"15"x10x2

Back Extension

10x3

Hanging Chair Raises

10x3

[steve_d]

I sure hope not! :)
That would be 230 lbs, 23% BF..



So how did you get to 230 lbs at 23% bodyfat? If that isn't where you're mind is comfortable keeping your body at, then that means you forced yourself to get fat?




In the long run, my "lifestyle" will be eating at a mild surplus (500 cal over whatever my maintenence happens to be at the time), and will be happy to gain a lbs of muscle every couple weeks, maybe (no idea where my potential is at, having been at it seriously for a year and a half, now).



lol...Good luck with that. 500 calories over maintenance - be prepared to gain roughly 1 pound of fat per week until you hit a plateau and be in equilibrium. hmmmm....232 lbs 23% bf??? (I added 2 pounds because you never know, you may gain some muscle this year if everything else is done right).


lather, rinse, repeat.

[dougz]

So how did you get to 230 lbs at 23% bodyfat?

Eating at too great a surplus (not keeping accurate track of my actual calorie consumption), and not eating clean..


lol...Good luck with that. 500 calories over maintenance - be prepared to gain roughly 1 pound of fat per week until you hit a plateau and be in equilibrium

If you have a better way to gain muscle, I'm all ears.. :)

[steve_d]

If you have a better way to gain muscle, I'm all ears.. :)

As i've said in other threads, too many people believe you have to eat so much to gain muscle. I know 500 calories doesn't sound like alot over maintenance - but it is - especially if you continue to up the calories as your weight climbs to counteract "maintenance" shifts.

I guarantee you that if you are actually over by 500, that you will basically gain mostly fat, at approx 1 pound per week. (I am assuming you are natural) Building muscle takes time - even if you're "enhanced", it still takes time. Especially with the way you are working out. You DON'T need to gain 20 pounds of fat to gain 1 pound of muscle. You just need to keep things simple, eat the right macros, train hard, get your sleep, and all the other things that should be common sense.

I don't have a "better" way to gain muscle. I just don't think its worth the big yo-yo effect to gain the muscle. I also feel you don't need to eat above maintenance to gain muscle. If you want it all to make sense mathematically, then do this math: 2 pounds of muscle in a year, divided by 365 days, = how many calories per day extra? not 500....You're body will gain muscle at its natural rate as long as you're doing everything else right.

It can get more complicated then that obviously, it may be harder to gain muscle if you're below your set point by quite a bit because all the calories you're eating will be used up to bring you're body back to where it wants to be, not to start building muscle.

Anyway, moral of the story, you don't need to eat 3500 calories extra per week to gain muscle.

[dougz]

I also feel you don't need to eat above maintenance to gain muscle.

I dunno man.. It's gotta come from somewhere..

But on this, too, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.. LOL

I guess I'll see what happens, and go from there..

[steve_d]

I dunno man.. It's gotta come from somewhere..

But on this, too, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.. LOL

I guess I'll see what happens, and go from there..

Thats why I added the sentence about dividing 2 pounds of muscle across 365 days to see how much above maintenance you need. And if that ends up being around 40 calories then there you go. If that's all your body needs to gain muscle, at this extremely slow rate (which is the only rate) then why would your body need it in addition to maintenance. You're body is probably smart enough to use the calories it gets to do what it needs to do. If you're working out hard, and breaking down muscle fibers, then why wouldn't your body be able to be smart enough to take the (maintenance) food your eating to repair and build ever so slowly.

Even if I am wrong, and your body is not smart enough, and it actually waits till you get a surplus, then you still only need 50 calories extra at most.

I am sure my response will be unpopular with not only you, but many people on here that disagree with your methods too...But the proof is in the pudding. I've gained muscle without gaining fat naturally, and slowly over the years.

[dougz]

Thats why I added the sentence about dividing 2 pounds of muscle across 365 days to see how much above maintenance you need. And if that ends up being around 40 calories then there you go. If that's all your body needs to gain muscle, at this extremely slow rate (which is the only rate) then why would your body need it in addition to maintenance. You're body is probably smart enough to use the calories it gets to do what it needs to do. If you're working out hard, and breaking down muscle fibers, then why wouldn't your body be able to be smart enough to take the (maintenance) food your eating to repair and build ever so slowly.

Even if I am wrong, and your body is not smart enough, and it actually waits till you get a surplus, then you still only need 50 calories extra at most.

I am sure my response will be unpopular with not only you, but many people on here that disagree with your methods too...But the proof is in the pudding. I've gained muscle without gaining fat naturally, and slowly over the years.

Interesting..

Well, I'll ask around, see what I come up with in terms of a consensus on your method..

But my gut is saying that'd it'd be pretty near impossible to achieve just a 50 calorie surplus consistently, for one (even using a digital scale, you have discrepancies as to what the calorie content of various foods actually are)..

And two, 2 lbs over a year I would consider 2 years of maintenence..

But that's me.. :)

5 lbs would be good..

Like I say, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one..

But I will ask around, thanks.. I know quite a few well respected nutritionists..

[tiramisu]

I find it necessary to eat at around a 500 calorie / day excess to put on significant muscle. In year 1, that was about 30 pounds of muscle. The progression was from 200 @ ~20% bf to 250 and then down to 210 @ @ 10%. Admittedly there were significant supplements involved but the vast majority of the meat was added while in significant calorie excess and I did bump my calories up multiple times by 500 calories whenever strength gains stalled to the point where more calories stopped helping.

If you are happy gaining 5-10 pounds of muscle per year I'm pretty sure you can do so without significant fat gain.

[steve_d]

Interesting..

Well, I'll ask around, see what I come up with in terms of a consensus on your method..

But my gut is saying that'd it'd be pretty near impossible to achieve just a 50 calorie surplus consistently, for one (even using a digital scale, you have discrepancies as to what the calorie content of various foods actually are)..

And two, 2 lbs over a year I would consider 2 years of maintenence..

But that's me.. :)

5 lbs would be good..

Like I say, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one..

But I will ask around, thanks.. I know quite a few well respected nutritionists..

nutritionists aren't going to know the answer. I work with nutritionists on a weekly basis in research. The one thing I can guarantee you is no one will know if I am right or wrong if you ask around. Many people will disagree including the most competitive bodybuilders on this site, as it is the general theory that you need to "bulk" and then "cut" to gain.

[steve_d]

I find it necessary to eat at around a 500 calorie / day excess to put on significant muscle. In year 1, that was about 30 pounds of muscle. The progression was from 200 @ ~20% bf to 250 and then down to 210 @ @ 10%. Admittedly there were significant supplements involved but the vast majority of the meat was added while in significant calorie excess and I did bump my calories up multiple times by 500 calories whenever strength gains stalled to the point where more calories stopped helping.

If you are happy gaining 5-10 pounds of muscle per year I'm pretty sure you can do so without significant fat gain.

If true, you're the exception. Probably the only way its possible is if you went from 100% natural, to taking large amounts of "supplements" and did everything perfectly. Dougz is not going to experience near these results clean, or even with supplementation. 30 pounds is simply a mind blowing #.

I stand by my 2 pounds prediction max - especially with your workout program. People think 5-10 pounds is an easy thing to do, but think about it, if that were true you would see competitive bodybuilders jump weight classes year after year, and within 5 years go from lightweight to heavyweight. That simply doesn't happen. Even with assistance, 5-10 is very impressive.

[dougz]

Sept 6/09

Weight: 189

Activity: Wii Yoga, cleaned fish tank, 20 min leisurely walk.

Diet:

365g egg whites
75g salsa

500g dry curd cottage cheese (2 meals)
15g cocoa powder

200g chicken breast (2 meals)
100g spinach

Supps:

600mg caffeine
60mg ephedrine
1200mg calcium citrate
450mg magnesium citrate
1 Scoop Greens+ multi
10g EFA
light salt
5g Creatine

Cals: 1120 .. F: 23g C: 19g P: 199g ..19/7/73

[HYEPWRD]

Pointless comments aside---interesting conversation.

Steve....for 8 years Ive been in the "option-2" camp of mild calorie reduction and increase in activity to lose fat- same as you. My experiance has always been that after a 8-12 weeks the fat stops coming off. You are in a constant spiral of increasing activity until you end up at 1 hr of cardio 3 times a day--which sux. Im giving this method a shot right now. If it works--it works--if it doesnt--it doesnt. As with drugs---some people can be more responsive to a certain therapy ---others can be less. It doesnt hurt to try a unique method to see how it works for you.

To address the point about lifestyle choices---sometimes guys dont have a choice. Ive been ~11% BF for the last 7 years---Last year I tore my tricep tendon. 9 months later--Im down 7lbs of muscle and up 15lbs of fat---eating exactly the same way I always have. Now that Im cleared to workout--> I want to get down to 10-11% as fast as possible.

[steve_d]

Pointless comments aside---interesting conversation.

Steve....for 8 years Ive been in the "option-2" camp of mild calorie reduction and increase in activity to lose fat- same as you. My experiance has always been that after a 8-12 weeks the fat stops coming off. You are in a constant spiral of increasing activity until you end up at 1 hr of cardio 3 times a day--which sux. Im giving this method a shot right now. If it works--it works--if it doesnt--it doesnt. As with drugs---some people can be more responsive to a certain therapy ---others can be less. It doesnt hurt to try a unique method to see how it works for you.

To address the point about lifestyle choices---sometimes guys dont have a choice. Ive been ~11% BF for the last 7 years---Last year I tore my tricep tendon. 9 months later--Im down 7lbs of muscle and up 15lbs of fat---eating exactly the same way I always have. Now that Im cleared to workout--> I want to get down to 10-11% as fast as possible.

good job on staying quite lean for 7 years. Sucks about the tricep tendon. I know injuries can really put a halt on gains from experience, and i've actually only had minor ongoing problems. Goes to show what can happen in 9 months eating the same but reducing the intensity or workouts altogether for that matter. Comes back fast though luckily.

I had a kid and stopped working out basicalyl 6 months straight. I did cardio (biking to work) and that is it. I lost 10 pounds, and by the mirror, probably gained fat. It's been about 9 months since then working hard and steady, and I've never looked better. I weigh more than 9 months ago, and am WAY leaner and stronger than I've ever been at this bodyweight.

[HYEPWRD]

I think we will all agree that a persons body looks exactly like how they treat it.

I hear you on the baby too...very time consuming(in a good way) !!

Nothing beats proper nutrition and hittin the iron hard.

All that said---There are times when you want to drop 4-8lbs of fat. I would get up to 13% in the winter and down to ~10% in the summer(bball season). I want to find the most muscle sparing way of doing that.

Ive always used a slight cal drop and big increase in cardio. It works, but I lose strength/muscle along the way. Im giving this a shot.

I will say doug...according to my waist--->My fat loss seems to be slowing down. Ill know for sure next monday. I may have to cycle....3weeks on...2 weeks maint cals....we'll see.

[dougz]

I will say doug...according to my waist--->My fat loss seems to be slowing down. Ill know for sure next monday. I may have to cycle....3weeks on...2 weeks maint cals....we'll see.

What's happening according to the scale? :)

How much are you trying to loose? How long have you been dieting?


3weeks on...2 weeks maint cals....we'll see.

If you're lean already that sounds like a good strategy..

[nisser]

If you're plateauing with fat loss you're either not calculating your calories correctly or you're not having proper cheat meals every week. A plateau after 12 weeks of dieting is expected at which point you're obviously going to diet and do cardio more intensely.

Dougz already on that routine at a very high bf. Losing 25lbs in 5 weeks is dumb any way you look at it. There's a reason no one is really agreeing with anything that is said in this thread.

[steve_d]

Well, Dougz already knows how I feel about his diet. But actually, the diet is better than the workout plan. 2 days per week, 2 different types of workouts - basically full bodyworkout. Is this what Lyle says to do? Along with no activity, there is few workout days, and the days there are workouts they look more like full body circuit training workout (with a more weight since you are a 200 pound man with some strength in there). How long are you in the gym? I bet you rest hardly at all considering the amount of sets you do...on a brighter note, at least your getting some cardio....

So, sum it up: crash diet, wii yoga, circuit-style cardio workouts. And this is what Lyle considers a ultra fat burning muscle conserving workout? I think i'd rather follow what richard simmons does for a few weeks than that!

Although, I think I know what your response will look like. You will worry about building muscle later, and now is just about losing lots of weight, etc.

Anyway, hopefully all my comments at least questions your thoughts. I am surprised you aren't taking our advice by now. You must realize that your method isn't so great. At least admit to that, and just say you're trying it for the fun of it. To say you're doing it because you really believe in it is silly!

[dougz]

2 days per week, 2 different types of workouts

Which different one?

Do you mean the SS I started out the diet with?


Is this what Lyle says to do?

Yes.. 2x to a maximum of 3x a week..


You will worry about building muscle later, and now is just about losing lots of weight, etc.

Yup, that sums it up nicely.. :)

Probably going to do a NROL program when I get back to eating at a surplus..


How long are you in the gym?

I'm out in about 55 minutes to an hour, not including foam rolling and mobility exercises..


I am surprised you aren't taking our advice by now.

:rolleyes:

Right.. Because obviously you guys are the experts.. Not these other experts that I've been listening to..

There's more than one way to skin a cat..

And if you want to advocate that everyone should spend 2 years dieting, that's your prerogative..


You must realize that your method isn't so great.

..... Becauuuuuuse... ??

I'm hungry 24/7? No... Haven't had more than 2 or 3 hunger pangs since I started..

Because I have no energy? No.. I have plenty..

Because my strength is cratering? Nope..

Because I'm losing muscle? No..

Oh! Because YOU don't agree with it.. Gotcha..

[nisser]

25lb loss in 5 weeks and you claim you've lost no muscle?

LOL?

[dougz]

None to speak of.. No..

Not at the fat level I started at (20%)..

It's only now that I'm getting close to 15% that I have to be careful..

[steve_d]

Dougz man...I am not pushing my "method". I don't use my "method". I am just saying that for the average person, its better to do things gradually (ie make it your life, not a 5 week goal). Personally, I go up and down all the time. But I am a competitive bodybuilder, and since I can't stay at 4% year round, I am forced to yo-yo.

you lost a shit load of weight in 5 weeks, and yes, some of it is muscle. I don't care what a caliper says. AND, if by some miracle, you didn't lose muscle, then imagine the muscle you coulda gained in that time doing something a little more sensible.

Also, if you can sustain your muscle mass on your diet, with your crappy workout routine, then you are no where near your potential.

I don't agree with your diet or your training style. That's a given. No I am not an expert. And what makes Lyle smarter than us? Why do you say he is right, and we are all wrong. Let's take a vote. 99% of the rest of the population disagrees. If this was millionaire "ask the audience" what would you go with?

Oh well, this is my last comment in this thread. On a positive note, I do think you're better off then 99% of the population. You have motivation, and your sticking to something. It's better than nothing. Not optimal (likely) but at least your doing something positive for your health.

Promise me that when all this weight loss phase is done, you at least go to the gym and do a real workout. None of this 55 minute circuit stuff with wii yoga to top it off.

[Felinecougar]

IMO the calipers will be saying your loosing. yes in lbs you will be..but with it is muscle too.

I could do your low carbolic diet and look leaner in clothes but naked I'm just a skinny frame with all the giggles and loose folds that I had before.

Feel good naked...........your not going to.

[bigdog81]

--

[dougz]

LOL

You know what..

If these trolls and thread crappers are the resident "experts" here, and if indeed said trolls/experts are right about everyone else on this forum being in agreement with you, then I have nothing to learn here, or reason to bother arguing..

I give up.. Congrats!

All I ever get when I hit the "new posts" button is stuff on steroids and free porn sites anyways.. :rolleyes:

Peace..

[nisser]

You're getting flack because you're being very stubborn and very snotty with your retorts.

Yes, you DID lose muscle. Your before and after pictures prove it as there's no way that's a 25lb of fat loss; not even half. If you hadn't lost muscle and only lost 25lbs of fat/water you'd look significantly better. Oh and saying that you haven't lost any strength means jack shit when you're lifting as much as a prepubescent girl.

[L3]

hey man, congrats on your weight loss and motivation to keep on truckin, its something the majority of the population lacks...

that being said, you need a serious attitude adjustment. the hardeadedness will get you nowhere. its unfortunate that you are unable to think outside the box, you seem like a very straight forward by the book person, which may have worked back when your parents were raising you, but not today, and i hope that you dont pass along ALL your character traits to your offspring, for their sake

ps. have you ever seen a bodybuilder off season? they're really skinny, eh????

[bigtavi8]

oh well leave then..wont have to deal with dumb questions and false facts. Have fun on your own with your attitude, and 1100 calorie supermodel diet.

[glastrisou]

I'm very interested! I would love to find out more inforamtion related to this topic. Thanks in advance.
me too, I need more detailed info

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