Baptisim

[Knuckles28]

Is it still the "norm" to baptise your kids? anyone here not baptise theirs?
My son is just over 2 years old now, and my Mom is telling me we need to baptise him, im not a religous person what so ever so i see no need to waste evryone's time. my family lives about 4 hours away.
My other 2 were baptised, but with my 3rd i havent given it more than 5 minutes of thought.
thoughts??

[canadianmuscle0803]

my beliefs are biblical on this issue.. i believe a kid should not get baptized for many reasons.. the most important reason is that there is no need to baptize a kid if the kid himself or herself is not willing, biblical baptism is a outward expression of your inward faith, can a baby have faith in Christ? anyways this is just my view, i know many religions baptize their babies but like i said above there is no point unless that person is willing to do it themselves.. God Bless

check out the q and a on this link

http://www.carm.org/questions/about-baptism

[Seth]

I'm personally an atheist, and I could only see one reason to baptize a kid; getting a religious wife off my back. If you don't believe and no one is making your life miserable for not baptizing your kid, screw it. If he decides he wants to be indoctrinated in a religion later, it'll be his choice

[AlladdinSane]

I'm personally an atheist, and I could only see one reason to baptize a kid; getting a religious wife off my back. If you don't believe and no one is making your life miserable for not baptizing your kid, screw it. If he decides he wants to be indoctrinated in a religion later, it'll be his choice

Ditto. Word for word.

[cog]

The grandparents worry...it's a small effort for them...

[ironwill]

Theres a guy at work....if he thinks some one is useless..he says...
so and so is like holy water, he aint gonna help you, but he aint gonna hurt you either...lol

Im baptised, and im happy to have every bit of help i can get, just in case the light turns back on in the land down under(the life i lived...lol)...a little extra insurance can never hurt....so id say, go with the baptism....ive not heard of it being detrimental....

[canadianmuscle0803]

Theres a guy at work....if he thinks some one is useless..he says...
so and so is like holy water, he aint gonna help you, but he aint gonna hurt you either...lol

Im baptised, and im happy to have every bit of help i can get, just in case the light turns back on in the land down under(the life i lived...lol)...a little extra insurance can never hurt....so id say, go with the baptism....ive not heard of it being detrimental....

how is baptism extra insurance? im guessing your catholic? your mislead my friend, baptism does not give you salvation.. nor is it necessary for salvation, its only an obedient act.

[deleteduser0002]

I was baptized as an infant and raised in a Christian home....and am an unrepentant atheist now. Does it bother me that I was baptized without my permission? No, not really. Do I think it was in any way shape or form a benefit of some kind (even maybe)....nope.

[ironwill]

how is baptism extra insurance? im guessing your catholic? your mislead my friend, baptism does not give you salvation.. nor is it necessary for salvation, its only an obedient act.

lol...nope not catholic, and you are way to serious my man....im joking...and it makes me feel good if it does help me, if not then it sure didnt hurt me that i know of...although i get an itchy spot on my scalp when sinning, maybe it was the damn holywater, i also dont have a foreskin, but im not gewish, and that also makes me feel good...thanks mom and dad x 2....lol

[WRJ]

my beliefs are biblical on this issue.. i believe a kid should not get baptized for many reasons.. the most important reason is that there is no need to baptize a kid if the kid himself or herself is not willing, biblical baptism is a outward expression of your inward faith, can a baby have faith in Christ? anyways this is just my view, i know many religions baptize their babies but like i said above there is no point unless that person is willing to do it themselves.. God Bless

check out the q and a on this link

http://www.carm.org/questions/about-baptism


X2 well said

[daande]

I was baptized. Went to a catholic elementary school and high school (my parents arent even religious!) Anyways, I dont believe in any sort of religion now or any type of God etc. After learning about religion for soo many years and I took a course on history and religion in uni. My feelings are that religion was created by greedy people who figured they could make money by selling people something to believe in. Very good business you are selling a product that costs you nothing. To me religion is the worlds biggest problem. It creates separation. It starts wars. It creates hatred. It is pure evil. Anyways, just my two cents.

[RagingRandy]

my beliefs are biblical on this issue.. i believe a kid should not get baptized for many reasons.. the most important reason is that there is no need to baptize a kid if the kid himself or herself is not willing, biblical baptism is a outward expression of your inward faith, can a baby have faith in Christ? anyways this is just my view, i know many religions baptize their babies but like i said above there is no point unless that person is willing to do it themselves.. God Bless

check out the q and a on this link

http://www.carm.org/questions/about-baptism

X3. Well said. I will add that there is no instruction in the Bible for baptizing children.

[Easterner]

It might not say in black and white that you have to baptise a baby. But it makes sense to baptize as early as possible.
Baptisim is not just an outward sign, it is a sacriment with god and it washes away all original sin. It also brings the holy spirt into you and gives you a better chance to be the best christian you can be.

[canadianmuscle0803]

It might not say in black and white that you have to baptise a baby. But it makes sense to baptize as early as possible.
Baptisim is not just an outward sign, it is a sacriment with god and it washes away all original sin. It also brings the holy spirt into you and gives you a better chance to be the best christian you can be.

wow.. you have been brainwashed my friend.. washes away original sin? so then the death of Jesus is for what? post-original sin? makes no sense at all and your theory is completely un-biblical.. and baptism does not give you the holy spirit, acceptance of Jesus as your savior and repentance gives you the holy spirit, let me guess, you also believe that Mary had no other children other then Jesus? and that she is also the Mother of God? your theology needs some work..

baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or else the man on the cross next to Jesus WOULD nor COULD end up in the kingdom of heaven/paradise as Jesus said he would go... faith in Jesus saves, not an outward act of any kind.. baptism is a simple act of obedience to show what has happened to you spiritually, simply put.

[RagingRandy]

It might not say in black and white that you have to baptise a baby. But it makes sense to baptize as early as possible.
Baptisim is not just an outward sign, it is a sacriment with god and it washes away all original sin. It also brings the holy spirt into you and gives you a better chance to be the best christian you can be.

Please quote the Bible reference where this is stated. From all the studying I have done this is not a Biblical teaching.

CM....Great post. Let your light shine brother.

[Seth]

.

[RagingRandy]

^^^^The flaw in that is Adam was not created with original sin. Adam was created perfect. Sin is simply rebellion against God. That is the choice we make. The point is we can not live a sinless life.

[the-vanilla-gorilla]

i was baptized cathlic and my son was also
i aint been to church in years and he aint been since either just something we do i geuss LOL

i personally dont know what i beleive but in the end i'd like to think theres something after all's said and done if there ain't wont matter i geuss cuz i wont know!



TVG

[Easterner]

Acts 2-38,39
Peter (said) to them, "repent and be baptized, *every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgivness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your childern and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.

[canadianmuscle0803]

^ im saddened by people who take God lightly as we live on earth, we live in a time of postponed judgment, God is having mercy on the world as we know it but only for a short while, in the old testament times he would punish sin immediately so people would repent, now we live in a Grace period and sadly many people are viewing this as a free for all time of living, basically action without consequence, sadly we shall all be judged and personally i think God will only ask us one question upon judgment, which will determine where our souls will reside for eternity.

[Easterner]

Mark 16-16
Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

[canadianmuscle0803]

Acts 2-38,39
Peter (said) to them, "repent and be baptized, *every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgivness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your childern and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.

you are taking this out of context.. first and foremost he said REPENT and be baptized, so that alone proves your baby baptism theory to be wrong.. can a baby repent? clearly not, how does one receive the holy spirit? by repenting or baptism?

in some theological views dedicating the baby is acceptable, im ok with this but dedication is by no means of baptism, its just a way of giving up your child in the care of God and hoping for his promise for salvation..

wild guess, you belong to a pentecostal church?


* Matt. 3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

* Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."�

* Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

* John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

* Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

* Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

clearly we see that the holy spirit comes to us by faith not by baptism..

[canadianmuscle0803]

Mark 16-16
Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

once again refer to my quotes, baptism is also used in sense of one accepting Christ.. you stand no chance in this debate bro.. :)

[AlladdinSane]

. (Funny Jeebus pic)

HA!


^^^^The flaw in that is Adam was not created with original sin. Adam was created perfect. Sin is simply rebellion against God. That is the choice we make. The point is we can not live a sinless life.

That's the only flaw you see?


Mark 16-16
Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

...and just to be on the less stupid side of the argument between the believers, the baptism in and of itself will not do the saving. It is the believing that will get your shit saved. How is a baby supposed to believe in anything?

[drdnj]

lol...nope not catholic, and you are way to serious my man....im joking...and it makes me feel good if it does help me, if not then it sure didnt hurt me that i know of...although i get an itchy spot on my scalp when sinning, maybe it was the damn holywater, i also dont have a foreskin, but im not gewish, and that also makes me feel good...thanks mom and dad x 2....lol

My thoughts and situation exactly! Cheers!

[canadianmuscle0803]

HA!



That's the only flaw you see?



...and just to be on the less stupid side of the argument between the believers, the baptism in and of itself will not do the saving. It is the believing that will get your shit saved. How is a baby supposed to believe in anything?

for a non believer you know your stuff.. good job..

[AlladdinSane]

for a non believer you know your stuff.. good job..

Yep. That's why I'm a non-believer.

[canadianmuscle0803]

Yep. That's why I'm a non-believer.

feel free to debate in this thread as i see things getting interesting, im sure there is an answer to most of your unbelief questions.. either way, something like this will not make anyone believe, i used to hate the bible or anyone associate to it.. not too long ago either.

[Easterner]

Sorry my friend but I do not take God lightly. I take God and Church very seriously and it actually pisses me off that you would come up with a comment like that about me from what I posted. I generaly find people dont like the Catholic Church becouse they think we have things all screwed up and twisted which is false. Who do you think put togather the Bible you read? yup it was the early Catholic Church which started with Jesus and built upon Saint Peter and from then till 2000 years later their was an unbroken chain of Popes at the head of the church. So I wonder who would have a better grasp of Bible teachings, the Catholic Church or one of the many many churches that broke off becouse they wanted to do things their own way and pick and choose what they want to beleave instead of the whole picture which you get with the original Church.

[tex]

Sorry my friend but I do not take God lightly. I take God and Church very seriously and it actually pisses me off that you would come up with a comment like that about me from what I posted. I generaly find people dont like the Catholic Church becouse they think we have things all screwed up and twisted which is false. Who do you think put togather the Bible you read? yup it was the early Catholic Church which started with Jesus and built upon Saint Peter and from then till 2000 years later their was an unbroken chain of Popes at the head of the church. So I wonder who would have a better grasp of Bible teachings, the Catholic Church or one of the many many churches that broke off becouse they wanted to do things their own way and pick and choose what they want to beleave instead of the whole picture which you get with the original Church. well said.

[AlladdinSane]

feel free to debate in this thread as i see things getting interesting, im sure there is an answer to most of your unbelief questions.. either way, something like this will not make anyone believe, i used to hate the bible or anyone associate to it.. not too long ago either.

I would, man, but no good ever comes of that.

[canadianmuscle0803]

Sorry my friend but I do not take God lightly. I take God and Church very seriously and it actually pisses me off that you would come up with a comment like that about me from what I posted. I generaly find people dont like the Catholic Church becouse they think we have things all screwed up and twisted which is false. Who do you think put togather the Bible you read? yup it was the early Catholic Church which started with Jesus and built upon Saint Peter and from then till 2000 years later their was an unbroken chain of Popes at the head of the church. So I wonder who would have a better grasp of Bible teachings, the Catholic Church or one of the many many churches that broke off becouse they wanted to do things their own way and pick and choose what they want to beleave instead of the whole picture which you get with the original Church.

i never stated that comments directly to you, im just speaking in general.. please re-read my post.. the catholic church has many many flaws. want proof?

Roman Catholics often say that it was their church that gave us the Bible. They sometimes claim this when defending their "sacred tradition" so that they might support extra biblical teachings such as purgatory, penance, indulgences, and Mary worship. They often say the only way the Christian church knew what books are to be included in the Canon of Scripture was because it was revealed by word-of-mouth in the early church; that is, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately, this argument implies that tradition is superior in Scripture. Of course, we are not saying that the Roman Catholic church teaches that tradition is above Scripture. But when sacred tradition is claimed to be the thing by which Scripture is given, then tradition is inadvertently the thing that gives blessing and approval to the Bible. Heb. 7:7 says, "But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater." The unfortunate psychological effect of saying that Roman Catholic tradition is what gave us the Bible, is that it elevates their tradition to a level far greater than what is permitted in Scripture. In fact, it is contradicted by scripture:

"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other," (1 Cor. 4:6).

The Bible tells us to obey the word of God, to not go beyond the written word, so that we might not make mistakes in what is true. Unfortunately, the problem with an elevated status of Roman Catholic church tradition is that it results in various justifications of it's non-biblical teachings such as prayer to Mary, purgatory, indulgences, penance, works righteousness, etc. Because it has deviated from trusting God's word alone, it has ventured into unscriptural areas. Nevertheless, did the Roman Catholic Church give us the Bible? No, it did not.

First of all, the Roman Catholic Church was not really in effect as an organization in the first couple hundred years of the Christian Church. The Christian church was under persecution and official church gatherings were risky business in the Roman Empire. Catholicism as an organization with a central figure located in Rome did not occur for quite some time, in spite of its claim they can trace the papacy back to Peter.

Second, the Christian Church recognized what was Scripture. It did not establish it. This is a very important point. The Christian Church recognizes what God has inspired and pronounces that recognition. In other words, he discovers what is already authentic. Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me..." (John 10:27). The church hears the voice of Christ; that is, it recognizes what is inspired and it follows the word. It does not add to it as the Roman Catholic Church has done. Therefore, it is not following the voice of Christ.

Third, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament which is the Scripture that Christ and the apostles appealed to. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to state that it gave us the Bible, how can they claim to have given us the Old Testament which is part of the Bible? It didn't, so it cannot make that claim. The fact is that the followers of God, the true followers of God, recognize what is and is not inspired. The Jews knew what was inspired of God and they recognized what God had inspired. That is what those who are of God do.

Fourth, when the apostles wrote the New Testament documents they were inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit. There wasn't any real issue of whether or not they were authentic. Their writings did not need to be deemed worthy of inclusion in the Canon of Scripture by a later group of men in the so-called Roman Catholic Church. To make such a claim is, in effect, to usurp the natural power and authority of God himself.

Fifth, the Scripture says, "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God," (2 Pet. 1:20-21). The Bible tells us that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the very nature of the inspired documents is that they carry power and authenticity in themselves. They are not given the power or the authenticity of ecclesiastical declaration.
Conclusion

The Christian church merely recognizes the Word of God (John 10:27). The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles. It does not rest in the declaration of the Catholic Church. This is very important, the Christian Church recognizes what God has ordained through his sovereign inspiration to be the word of God. When the Catholic Church claims that it is the source of the sacred Scriptures, it is, in effect, placing itself above the word of God. It needs to repent.

here i will point out these flaws you speak of..

Catholic Church "false teachings"

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]

Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

* * * *

There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).
* * * *

The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts--1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell-bound 2) there's no such thing as purgatory and 3) the gift of God is without price.

Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization.

[Easterner]

I will admit you know more Quotes than I do and it took me a while to dig those ones up. I have only gotten serious about my faith in the last year or so. I'v got a long road ahead of me in my studies but thankfully I have 2000 years of Church teaching to help me long the way because the Bible was never ment to be self tought.
I have only read the major books threw once so far so it is hard for me to recall the quotes I am looking for on demand.
You are right, right now I probably cant win this debate becouse I simply cant find what I want in a timely maner.

[canadianmuscle0803]

I would, man, but no good ever comes of that.

too late, the volcano already erupted..:flagC i love freedom of speech :flagC

[canadianmuscle0803]

I will admit you know more Quotes than I do and it took me a while to dig those ones up. I have only gotten serious about my faith in the last year or so. I'v got a long road ahead of me in my studies but thankfully I have 2000 years of Church teaching to help me long the way because the Bible was never ment to be self tought.
I have only read the major books threw once so far so it is hard for me to recall the quotes I am looking for on demand.
You are right, right now I probably cant win this debate becouse I simply cant find what I want in a timely maner.

if you stick with the mindset that the "church" will guide you in the right direction im sad to say your on a very wide path..

Matthew 7: 13-29

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
The Wise and Foolish Builders

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

[Easterner]

Just so were clear I did not say the Catholic Church wrote the bible. I said it was put togather by the Church. Big difference.

To clear another point up Catholics do not by any means worship Mary, we pray to her to intercede for us with Jesus. Another huge difference.

[AlladdinSane]

we pray to her

As far as the bible is concerned, this is WRONG and is a sin.

[Easterner]

Canadianmuscle0803: Obviosley I'm not versed well enough in scripture to debate with you yet. But if you have any desire at all to learn why the Catholic church is what it is today. You should get a copy of The Bible Timeline by Jeff Cavins from Ascension press.

[AlladdinSane]

Obviosley I'm not versed well enough in scripture to debate with you yet. But if you have any desire at all to learn why the Catholic church is what it is today. You should get a copy of The Bible Timeline by Jeff Cavins from Ascension press.

I know why the Catholic church is what it is today: because it's corrupt and rules its followers with fear.

[GYMBRAT]

all 3 of my children are Baptized as am I, my wife is a believer and I am not so sure anymore, I used to be a firm believer but a few yrs ago (long story) changed my mind.

I stand by anyones beliefs because they are their own and nobody can/should judge them for that imo...

[canadianmuscle0803]

all 3 of my children are Baptized as am I, my wife is a believer and I am not so sure anymore, I used to be a firm believer but a few yrs ago (long story) changed my mind.

I stand by anyones beliefs because they are their own and nobody can/should judge them for that imo...

if you were once a believer then the bible promises that you will be found again.. Jesus does or will not loose any the Father has given him.. if you dont mind what happened to change your mind? also, belief does not merely come just from the mind.. its a conviction of the heart (the soul of a man)

[GYMBRAT]

very true, and nicely said bro! I am definitely coming around as of late though.

[RagingRandy]

To all seekers out there I applaud you. I know a very wise man. Probably the most Biblically knowledgeable I have ever met. He once told me that when he gets to Heaven, which is where he is now, he will not be surprised at what doctrines he had wrong but what he had right. We learn best through humility and are willing to be taught. Things I believed as fact a few years ago I now know are in error.

God has given us this promise.
Jeremiah 29:13 NIV
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

We all will take a different path to our Saviour. He will reveal himself to you if you truly serious.

Keep the discussions happening.

[Knuckles28]

wow a few responses, thanks! i'm just going to let the subject hopefully die and keep putting it off. I'm no believer what so ever so i see no need in doing it. My wife is cool with it too it's just my folks that want it.
I just find it hard to believe in the almighty, when i already know Aliens from Zork put us here..

[canadianmuscle0803]

To all seekers out there I applaud you. I know a very wise man. Probably the most Biblically knowledgeable I have ever met. He once told me that when he gets to Heaven, which is where he is now, he will not be surprised at what doctrines he had wrong but what he had right. We learn best through humility and are willing to be taught. Things I believed as fact a few years ago I now know are in error.

God has given us this promise.
Jeremiah 29:13 NIV
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

We all will take a different path to our Saviour. He will reveal himself to you if you truly serious.

Keep the discussions happening.

im not sure why but I have this thing about proper theology.. my first year of salvation was probably the worst year of my life.. i was told to do this and do that and i achieved nothing but continual circles.. then i looked into the study of scripture and wow i was blown away, the Sovereignty of God for example.. many people do not realize how much control God has, yes 100%, there is nothing that is outside of Gods ultimate control.. although you say you must seek with all your heart, i fully agree, but you can not seek something that is not in your nature to seek, God must first have Grace upon you and then you will be capable to do what you speak of.. dont forget we are saved by faith, through grace.. and only God can control that..

[deleteduser0002]

LMAO, this thread has good entertainment value!lol.

[canadianmuscle0803]

LMAO, this thread has good entertainment value!lol.

but how does it make you laugh?

[deleteduser0002]

I usually try and stay out of these conversations these days as I find debating online never gets anybody anywhere, possibly except offended.....

But you did ask.....it makes me laugh when people spout off in a dead serious tone about the validity of things that are totally fictional...you might as well be arguing the validity of the Lord Of the Rings Trilogy and how important it is to our lives,lol.....its funny.

[AlladdinSane]

..you might as well be arguing the validity of the Lord Of the Rings Trilogy and how important it is to our lives,lol.....its funny.

I use LOTR as a parallel in my head, too.

Weird. lol.

[canadianmuscle0803]

I usually try and stay out of these conversations these days as I find debating online never gets anybody anywhere, possibly except offended.....

But you did ask.....it makes me laugh when people spout off in a dead serious tone about the validity of things that are totally fictional...you might as well be arguing the validity of the Lord Of the Rings Trilogy and how important it is to our lives,lol.....its funny.

thats totally understandable, but you have to realize that this is not just fiction and very serious to some of us..

[deleteduser0002]

thats totally understandable, but you have to realize that this is not just fiction and very serious to some of us..

Actually I do. I was raised Christian and spent years studying Christian theology and apologetic's. So, I'm not at all ignorant to where your coming from. My apologies for being insensitive about the topic....

[RagingRandy]

im not sure why but I have this thing about proper theology.. my first year of salvation was probably the worst year of my life.. i was told to do this and do that and i achieved nothing but continual circles.. then i looked into the study of scripture and wow i was blown away, the Sovereignty of God for example.. many people do not realize how much control God has, yes 100%, there is nothing that is outside of Gods ultimate control.. although you say you must seek with all your heart, i fully agree, but you can not seek something that is not in your nature to seek, God must first have Grace upon you and then you will be capable to do what you speak of.. dont forget we are saved by faith, through grace.. and only God can control that..

I do not dispute anything you have said. I think it is great you are so vocal about your beliefs. I am Calvinistic in my doctrinal beliefs and believe we are totally depraved outside of the grace and mercy of God. I also believe that God has placed in us all the innate understanding that a greater power than ourselves exists. He has also speaks to us through creation.

Psalm 19
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.

4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

Seeking the scriptures is not simply to determine the "rights and wrongs" but to determine who God is. Simply put, we study to seek God.

As for the sovereignty of God, the best book I ever ready in this regard is "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W Pink. You can read it here... http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

There are many other resources there as well.

[RagingRandy]

GEO.....
I can see your post is quite heartfelt and well thought out. My question, however, is what is "good". What determines right and wrong? This needs to be determined before you can say you have lived well and have done "good" things.

For me, my faith has never been about religion but about a relationship with my God and Saviour. You are right when you say that people try to boil religion down to "Thou shalt nots" This, to me is false teachings. Paul in Galatians reminds us that we have freedom in Christ. I grew up in an era where the mortal sins were drinking, dancing, smoking, and going to movie theatres. My father even shakes his head now when I ask him why he tried to teach me these things. We are not to blindly follow any religious leaders.

I am glad this tread is going so well and people remain respectful. Open dialogue is a great why to learn.

[Easterner]

I know we kind of moved past this already but I came across this at ScriptureCatholic.com


III. Infant Baptism
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.

Top

[Easterner]

Geo I can see were you are coming form and I respect your point of view becouse I know you always put alot of thought into what you say.
I also understand how you can say you dont beleave the Bible, About 6-7 years ago I tried to read the Bible without any guidance and was lost and it dident sit well with me so I just gave up. About 6 months ago I got The Bible Timeline by Jeff Cavins, It is a Bible study course on a set of 24 cd's. He Gives you the history of what is happening around the same time as whats going on in the Bible. He explains whey things are happening in the Bible. It helped me make alot of sence of it and Gave me a good foundation to build uppon in the future.

[Easterner]

I also came across this on the same site.


II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

[canadianmuscle0803]

all i have to say is WOW.. i wont even touch this one.. you are taking the bible wayyy out of context.. yikes..

[wolverine]

I think if one reads and follows the bible and can take away a good ground work for a life path then you have understood the bible, there is way to much left open for interpretation and we could sit here and debate the bible till the end of time. I believe in God and I am proud of my faith, I feel sorry for you non-believers.

[deleteduser0002]

I believe in God and I am proud of my faith, I feel sorry for you non-believers.

I'll keep that in mind, LOL.

[gsxr750]

I was baptised but don't believe the bible. I believe in a higher power, but not in this story of Jesus.. until there's real evidence.. Zeitgeists explanation makes more sense to me.

[Easterner]

all i have to say is WOW.. i wont even touch this one.. you are taking the bible wayyy out of context.. yikes..

Well I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

[RagingRandy]

I know we kind of moved past this already but I came across this at ScriptureCatholic.com


III. Infant Baptism
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

***This is only true if you believe that baptism has saving power. It does not prove the point. I would need a reference that equates the 2. From what I know there is no Biblical evidence of this.

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

***This does not hold true unless you believe Baptism has saving power. This does not prove your point.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

***This does not hold true unless you believe Baptism has saving power. This does not prove your point.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

***This is faulty logic. What Christ meant is that we need to come in humility as a child to enter heaven. Because to repent you need to come to it through humility.

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

***This does not hold true unless you believe Baptism has saving power. This does not prove your point.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

***This does not hold true unless you believe Baptism has saving power. This does not prove your point.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

***The order quote always in the Bible is believe and be baptized. That is the order found in the New Testament.

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

***This is true we all are under the grace of God, even the unbelievers. The sun rises on the just and unjust.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

***Reference
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” 2:40 With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!” 2:41 So those who accepted his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand people were added.

Please note in 39 that the promise he is referring to is receiving the Holy Spirit which by extension would mean a place in heaven. Read the entire chapter to understand the reference. What is guarantee is the promise. This promise is for all. Those who repent will share in heaven. Note in 41 who was baptized. It was those who believed and accepted the message.


Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

***This only holds true if you can equate circumcision and baptism which I do not believe is stated in scripture.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

***Those who believe in the order as laid out in other places of the Bible would state that only those that believed would have been baptized.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

***See above.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

***See above.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Just because the Catholic church has done something does not make it Scriptural. The Catholic belief that their traditions are at the same level as the Bible is false.

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

***REference
Acts 16:30 Then he brought them outside and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” 16:32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him, along with all those who were in his house. 16:33 At that hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized right away. 16:34 The jailer brought them into his house and set food before them, and he rejoiced greatly that he had come to believe in God, together with his entire household.

First note in 31 what is required for salvation. It is belief alone. Next note that they spoke so for someone to believe they must understand what is being said. In 34 it states that he believed with his entire household. That is why they were baptized. Belief precludes baptism.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

***This is only true if you believe that baptism has saving power. It does not prove the point.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

***This is only true if you believe that baptism has saving power. It does not prove the point.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

***See above.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

***This is only true if you believe that baptism has saving power. It does not prove the point.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

***This is only true if you believe that baptism has saving power. It does not prove the point.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

***This is an amazing stretch.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

***Christ responded to the faith of the group which included the man on the stretcher.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

***This can not be equated to salvation. The faith of another healed the physical aspects of another not the spiritual.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

***See above.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.

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See notes *** at each reference.