Q&A with Praetorian - National Level Competitor

[JacktheThriller]

if btufts is correct do you think fat dominant diet is the way to go. Not keto but lower carb?

[Praetorian]

hey prae

doing intense contruction work in may, do you think i keep up good intensity through the day on keto?

It will be extremely tough.
P

[Praetorian]

nice !

It's optimal to stop keto diet, begin PCT, reintroduce carbs slowly or wait few weeks after reintroducing carbs ?

What about week off for "regular BBer" not competiting/after a contest

Thanks

Yes reintroduce carbs slowly every other meal 30g. Start PCT...but take a week off first(everyone).
P

[Praetorian]

if btufts is correct do you think fat dominant diet is the way to go. Not keto but lower carb?

If you are doing intense labour you will probably need some carbs.
P

[friendh35]

First ... sorry for my english.

Can you tell me what do you think of Isolate from TrueSupplement ? The price is so low compare to other brand !

During a keto diet, I take omega 3 (Ascenta). Each 5 ml contains 5 grams of fat with 1.6 omega 3. Is 15-20g of omega 3 per day is too much?

Thank.

[Vitamin S]

Hi p,

is this a good pct, if not what would u change?

weeks 1-3 1000iu monday/wed/friday
weeks 4-5 100mg clomid daily
weeks 1-5 1mg arimidex eod.

[Sandwiches]

Hi p,

is this a good pct, if not what would u change?

weeks 1-3 1000iu monday/wed/friday
weeks 4-5 100mg clomid daily
weeks 1-5 1mg arimidex eod.

i hope you have rep'd P untill you can't anymore

[declan]

i hope you have rep'd P untill you can't anymore

:) He has intensively accumulated vast knowledge of info for free. Well, we are reading it so we have benefited as well. Thanks Prae!

[rickyboy36]

Hey Prae!!

If someone "only" had access to an unlimited supply of nolvadex and 5000ui's of HCG how would you use them in conjuction for PCT.I know of course you would add leztrozole and others but i really need to know with just these two compounds.Some use the HCG all the way through,others at the end for 3 weeks.What do you think is best?

Also,using the same scenario as above,how would one use nolvadex during his cycle to prevent gyno.My friend is prone to this so would 20mgs be sufficient?I also have another friend who's nips are verr very sore.Again,how would you go about in reversing this somewhat and then maintaining?Ive heard that some people take 60mgs for about a week to bring the swelling down,and the maintain with 20mgs throughout?And one last thing,the guy who is taking nolva during his cycle to prevent gyno,how does he use it to rstart his natty production.Is there a cut off time near the end?

Thanks alot Prae!!

[friendh35]

Hi P

If I am planning a mass cycle with a duration of 16 weeks and 7-8 weeks after I stopped gaining weight (I gained about 15 pounds in 7-8 weeks). Should I stop my cycle or there is a profit to continue?

Thank

[natenator]

:) He has intensively accumulated vast knowledge of info for free. Well, we are reading it so we have benefited as well. Thanks Prae!
Knowledge is one thing. Practical application is another ;)

[declan]

Knowledge is one thing. Practical application is another ;)

Agreed and its where us, beginners fail. I take in everything I read and incorporate them on my system/routine a bit at a time by doing so I learn which actually works with my body and which I can't follow or don't apply to me. When starting a new path I also give it ample time to see if it does work or not.

My road to learning on how to work with my body is decades ahead, I barely touched the outer surface, but with all your inputs and insights I feel that I am trudging to my goals faster.

Cheers!

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

how suitable is the keto diet dave plaumbo one for females. i have my wife on it for one week now and she loves it and has consistent energry levels. she was talking to another female at the gym, and she told her that her trainer says stay away as many competigive femail figure athetltes are now suing palumbo since they went inot early menopause? is this true or bullshit.

is keto safe for females? she is 30 and we plan on having kids in a year or so.

thanks P

[natenator]

Hey P,

I'm currently cutting using a keto diet... also running test, EQ, and clen.

I was thinking of adding T3 into the mix and understand that you should slowly ramp it up and then down before coming off..... I have 12 weeks till i start my pct...... am I correct in assuming it would be best to have it ramped down and out by the time pct starts?

Also, what's your protocol for ramping it up and down? (sorry, I know you've posted it before but I can't find it)

Thanks
12.5mcg 2 times/day then increase by 12.5 every 2 weeks (or when progress stalls) to a max of 75mcg and leave it there until you reach goal/competition then taper down.

[Praetorian]

First ... sorry for my english.

Can you tell me what do you think of Isolate from TrueSupplement ? The price is so low compare to other brand !

During a keto diet, I take omega 3 (Ascenta). Each 5 ml contains 5 grams of fat with 1.6 omega 3. Is 15-20g of omega 3 per day is too much?

Thank.

Never tried their protein so I cannot comment sorry. 2-3 g twice daily is sufficient....15-20 is more than enough.
P

[Praetorian]

Hi p,

is this a good pct, if not what would u change?

weeks 1-3 1000iu monday/wed/friday
weeks 4-5 100mg clomid daily
weeks 1-5 1mg arimidex eod.

It all depends on the individual and many other variables...ie length of cycle, products used, age , etc....it may be fine for some...others may require more HCG....5mg adex EOD is probably enough.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae!!

If someone "only" had access to an unlimited supply of nolvadex and 5000ui's of HCG how would you use them in conjuction for PCT.I know of course you would add leztrozole and others but i really need to know with just these two compounds.Some use the HCG all the way through,others at the end for 3 weeks.What do you think is best?

Also,using the same scenario as above,how would one use nolvadex during his cycle to prevent gyno.My friend is prone to this so would 20mgs be sufficient?I also have another friend who's nips are verr very sore.Again,how would you go about in reversing this somewhat and then maintaining?Ive heard that some people take 60mgs for about a week to bring the swelling down,and the maintain with 20mgs throughout?And one last thing,the guy who is taking nolva during his cycle to prevent gyno,how does he use it to rstart his natty production.Is there a cut off time near the end?

Thanks alot Prae!!

For PCT with only 5000iu I would use 1000iu doses EOD along with nolvadex 20mg twice daily. Using hcg with the cycle would help but you dont have enough to do both. Nolvadex is a SERM and can only do so much....it will help prevent and usually dramatically lessen gyno symptoms but it is not a cure....surgery is the only solution. Also using nolvadex during a cycle will lessen gains....some less some more...depends on the person. To restart tets production he can use the HCG at 1000iu EOD and the nolvadex 20mg twice daily for two weeks them 20mg daily for 4 weeks....it may help restart quicker but again it depends an many things.
P

[Praetorian]

Hi P

If I am planning a mass cycle with a duration of 16 weeks and 7-8 weeks after I stopped gaining weight (I gained about 15 pounds in 7-8 weeks). Should I stop my cycle or there is a profit to continue?

Thank

Switch products, increase food consumption, increase training intensity...periodize your training. You shouldnt need to stop.
P

[Praetorian]

hey p,

how suitable is the keto diet dave plaumbo one for females. i have my wife on it for one week now and she loves it and has consistent energry levels. she was talking to another female at the gym, and she told her that her trainer says stay away as many competigive femail figure athetltes are now suing palumbo since they went inot early menopause? is this true or bullshit.

is keto safe for females? she is 30 and we plan on having kids in a year or so.

thanks P

It i very suitable....and works extremely well. LOL I would advise your wifes friend to find another trainer...he obviously knows little about the human body or nutrition. I have had female clients with PCOS that were told by there Dr's they would never have children...after 12 weeks on keto they were able to conceive.
P

[Praetorian]

12.5mcg 2 times/day then increase by 12.5 every 2 weeks (or when progress stalls) to a max of 75mcg and leave it there until you reach goal/competition then taper down.

Thanks Nate...just returned from Punta Cana and getting back to everyone now.
P

[natenator]

Thanks Nate...just returned from Punta Cana and getting back to everyone now.
P
I saw :)

Hope you had a great time!

[rickyboy36]

For PCT with only 5000iu I would use 1000iu doses EOD along with nolvadex 20mg twice daily. Using hcg with the cycle would help but you dont have enough to do both. Nolvadex is a SERM and can only do so much....it will help prevent and usually dramatically lessen gyno symptoms but it is not a cure....surgery is the only solution. Also using nolvadex during a cycle will lessen gains....some less some more...depends on the person. To restart tets production he can use the HCG at 1000iu EOD and the nolvadex 20mg twice daily for two weeks them 20mg daily for 4 weeks....it may help restart quicker but again it depends an many things.
P

So what you are saying is start HCG a week after last shot,for 10days or so,and then start the nolvadex after?

[btufts]

How was the trip Prae?? Did you REALLY take a full week off from the gym and rest haha

[bossman_1986]

what do you think of animal cuts while dieting? do you think caffeine, l-carnitine and green tea extract would be enough to supplement your dieting phase?

[btufts]

what do you think of animal cuts while dieting? do you think caffeine, l-carnitine and green tea extract would be enough to supplement your dieting phase?

If that's what your looking for, try the somalize I think it's called from species... Ask prae how to order

[Tonka]

P,

What are your opinions on IM injections with GH at muscle-tear site?

[Praetorian]

I saw :)

Hope you had a great time!

Definitely did...thanks!
P

[Praetorian]

So what you are saying is start HCG a week after last shot,for 10days or so,and then start the nolvadex after?

If you arent running an AI with the HCG youll need to start the nolva the same time....otherwise you'll get estro suppresion making it touger to recover.
P

[Praetorian]

How was the trip Prae?? Did you REALLY take a full week off from the gym and rest haha

Very relaxxing...got a great tan...yep full week off..feeling very refreshed and good to go for the Nationals come Aug.
P

[Praetorian]

what do you think of animal cuts while dieting? do you think caffeine, l-carnitine and green tea extract would be enough to supplement your dieting phase?

The caffeine will help but you need to watch the stimulants they can cause cortisol release and adrenal fatigue...200mg caffeine before cardio is fine...Lipolyze and Somalyze from Species will help add to that as well.
P

[Praetorian]

P,

What are your opinions on IM injections with GH at muscle-tear site?

IM injections of GH are generally better than subq because there is less chance of losing any gh via fat. As for it helping with muscle tears at the site...not happening...GH becomes systemic very quickly. You would be better of using IGF-1 at the site for muscle tears.
P

[bossman_1986]

The caffeine will help but you need to watch the stimulants they can cause cortisol release and adrenal fatigue...200mg caffeine before cardio is fine...Lipolyze and Somalyze from Species will help add to that as well.
P

so would 200mg before cardio then 200mg 5 hours later be ok?

and what about green tea extract and l-carnitine, would those be a good addition?

[Praetorian]

so would 200mg before cardio then 200mg 5 hours later be ok?

and what about green tea extract and l-carnitine, would those be a good addition?

That would be fine...yes you could add those...dont think they would do much tho.
P

[btufts]

Very relaxxing...got a great tan...yep full week off..feeling very refreshed and good to go for the Nationals come Aug.
P


Good to hear! I'll have to make a trip out to nationals this year see what the big guys look like in real life! where's it being held this year?

[natenator]

Good to hear! I'll have to make a trip out to nationals this year see what the big guys look like in real life! where's it being held this year?
saskatoon

[Shaun73]

Prae i was thinking of using some gh this summer up till the end of the fall. I was wondering what is the better dosing protocal for building muscle.

6iu ed

or 8iu post workout. 5 days a week, thurs and sundays off.

if i do 6iu ed should i do it IM or sub q? and how would u split up the doses?

[Praetorian]

Prae i was thinking of using some gh this summer up till the end of the fall. I was wondering what is the better dosing protocal for building muscle.

6iu ed

or 8iu post workout. 5 days a week, thurs and sundays off.

if i do 6iu ed should i do it IM or sub q? and how would u split up the doses?

GH needs to be taken every day...5 days per week is not ideal nor does it work well...its something guys have been doing to save money but its flawed to say the least. 4-6iu ED is a good start....split the dose into 2 injections 8 hours apart...one with breakfast the other post workout preferrably. IM is actually preferred but either will work.
P

[Shaun73]

thanks prae! so IM injections are better? i thought with IM injections were only for post workout so gh spikes and drops. Dont i want a stable release if im doing it otherwise?

also if i do inject IM post workout should it be into the muscle worked?

[Praetorian]

thanks prae! so IM injections are better? i thought with IM injections were only for post workout so gh spikes and drops. Dont i want a stable release if im doing it otherwise?

also if i do inject IM post workout should it be into the muscle worked?

IM injections are lets say more efficient because there is less chance of injecting into fat stores and losing some absorption. GH becomes sytemic quickly making spikes and drops a moot point...growth comes from IGF-1 from the liver mediated by GH not the GH itself. IM is very stable. No it makes no sense to inject into the muscle just worked...as above GH becomes systemic quickly.
P

[btufts]

SO Prae, now that your preparing for nationals will you be following keto diet?

[Shaun73]

where is a good spot for IM injections with GH and what kinda needle do i use

[Praetorian]

SO Prae, now that your preparing for nationals will you be following keto diet?

Yes of course.
P

[Praetorian]

where is a good spot for IM injections with GH and what kinda needle do i use

Delts, insulin pin.
P

[steve_o]

Do you have any ambition to compete at the World Level IFBB? A question for you. I know they have a non drug tested event at the National Level, do they have the same thing in the IFBB?

[Praetorian]

Do you have any ambition to compete at the World Level IFBB? A question for you. I know they have a non drug tested event at the National Level, do they have the same thing in the IFBB?

There are two routes to an IFBB pro card in Canada. One is the IFBB World Championship route which is a drug tested show (this doesnt mean athletes are clean...far from it) and the CBBF Nationals which is a non drug tested show. Once you receive your IFBB pro card you are allowed to compete in any IFBB snacioned shows except ones the require qualification (Mr O) or an invite (AC). All of the IFBB sanctioned shows are non drug tested.
I am taking the Nationals route.
P

PS. the most discussed topic backstage at the World Championships was what drugs everyone was using ;o)

[steve_o]

There are two routes to an IFBB pro card in Canada. One is the IFBB World Championship route which is a drug tested show (this doesnt mean athletes are clean...far from it) and the CBBF Nationals which is a non drug tested show. Once you receive your IFBB pro card you are allowed to compete in any IFBB snacioned shows except ones the require qualification (Mr O) or an invite (AC). All of the IFBB sanctioned shows are non drug tested.
I am taking the Nationals route.
P

PS. the most discussed topic backstage at the World Championships was what drugs everyone was using ;o)

I thought you have to win the CBBF Nationals to get an invite to do the worlds with Team Canada.

That is what I thought. I know someone who did the Worlds in Italy this year and she was far from clean. She was running Winny, Var, Primo and Clen for prep. All she did was make sure she stopped taking it far enough out to not get caught and then stopped clen 2 weeks out from the show just to be safe.

So all shows are non drug tested at the IFBB level besides the World Championships?

[Praetorian]

i thought you have to win the cbbf nationals to get an invite to do the worlds with team canada. No its a different stream...you have to win your class at the canadian natural nationals...then you get an invite to the ifbb worlds

that is what i thought. I know someone who did the worlds in italy this year and she was far from clean. She was running winny, var, primo and clen for prep. All she did was make sure she stopped taking it far enough out to not get caught and then stopped clen 2 weeks out from the show just to be safe.
Happens all the time...

They test at the ac? I did not know this. I thought all shows were drug free at the ifbb level besides the world championships. no the ac is not tested...no ifbb shows are tested except the world championships

p

[btufts]

Make it to the big O prae, then i can say i've been trained by an IFBB pro athlete haha

[Dragon1911]

Hey Prae,

What would a good dosing scheme be for a woman taking Clen.
Start at 20mcg/day for a week and raise by 20mcg/week until 80-100/day.

Or should she raise the dose every 2 days and then taper down after 2 weeks.

Is there a need to cycle up and down every 2 weeks or can it be run for 8-10 weeks straight.

Thanks so much for your assistance.

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,

What would a good dosing scheme be for a woman taking Clen.
Start at 20mcg/day for a week and raise by 20mcg/week until 80-100/day.

Or should she raise the dose every 2 days and then taper down after 2 weeks.

Is there a need to cycle up and down every 2 weeks or can it be run for 8-10 weeks straight.

Thanks so much for your assistance.

20mcg daily is fine...raise by 20mcg every two weeks until she hits 100mcg then leave it there until the diet is finished...then taper off.
P

[Dragon1911]

So extended time on Clen is not an issue right?

I believe she will be dieting for the next 16 weeks.

[Praetorian]

So extended time on Clen is not an issue right?

I believe she will be dieting for the next 16 weeks.

16 weeks is perfectly fine on clen or T3.
P

[Dragon1911]

Thanks P 16 weeks uping the dose every 2 weeks to a max of 100mcg it is.
Your help is greatly appreciated

[evoke]

Have you heard of "testosterone-recovery-stack"?

http://bodybuilding.elitefitness.com/ultimate-testosterone-recovery-stack-primordial-performance

They are saying its on par with nolva/clomid as pct. "No side effects" and a lot of other bold claims.

Any truth to this?

[Praetorian]

Have you heard of "testosterone-recovery-stack"?

http://bodybuilding.elitefitness.com/ultimate-testosterone-recovery-stack-primordial-performance

They are saying its on par with nolva/clomid as pct. "No side effects" and a lot of other bold claims.

Any truth to this?

Marketing hype....I would avoid anything coming from Elite fitness...terrible site...full of misinformation and bullcrap.
P

[IronMan]

Marketing hype....I would avoid anything coming from Elite fitness...terrible site...full of misinformation and bullcrap.
P

I concur!

[nitrous]

Hey P when diluting igf-1lr3 to 100mcg/ml if i'm only running 10mcg a day is it alright to only be injecting .1ml? would i then have to use a slin pin? i think with a 3ml 25g i'd be leaving half of it in the pin

[Praetorian]

Hey P when diluting igf-1lr3 to 100mcg/ml if i'm only running 10mcg a day is it alright to only be injecting .1ml? would i then have to use a slin pin? i think with a 3ml 25g i'd be leaving half of it in the pin


You shoudl always use a slin pin with IGF-1...you dont need to dilute it that much either.
P

[nitrous]

You shoudl always use a slin pin with IGF-1...you dont need to dilute it that much either.
P

okay to use the slin pin in the shoulder as if its IM for example or quads etc or always do it in the stomach fat area?

if i dilute it to 200mcg/ml then and only inject 0.05cc with a slin pin thats okay?

[Praetorian]

okay to use the slin pin in the shoulder as if its IM for example or quads etc or always do it in the stomach fat area?

if i dilute it to 200mcg/ml then and only inject 0.05cc with a slin pin thats okay?

IM in the delts is best...and yes 5iu on a slin pin would be 10mcg at that solution. See below on proper use, storage, and mixing IGF.
P


Dave Palumbo on IGF-1

(1)-STORAGE OF IGF-1(prior to mixing)
lyophilized (dry) IGF-1is stable at room temperture for three weeks;however,it should be stored below -18 degrees celsius (in the freezer section).

(2)WEIGHT OF IGF-1
1 milligram (mg) IGF-1 = 1,000 mcg (micrograms) IGF-1 (dry weight- before mixing).

(3) WHAT TO MIX THE IGF-1 WITH
when reconstituting,its important to remember IGF-1 can get "stuck" in the grooves of the glass bottle it comes packaged in. while glass appears smooth to the naked eye, under a microscope, it's a convoluted landscape of grooves and hidden recesses.
By mixing the lyophilized IGF-1 with an "acid water" (e.g., 10mM HCL -very dilute hydochloric acid), the IGF-1 molecules are efficiently detached from the glass and solubilized in the mixture. Any online "compounding" laboratory could mix up a 10mM HCL solution. likewise, any intro chemistry student should be able to do the same.
If a reliable source of "acid water" can't be located, mix your IGF-1 powder with BACTERIOSTATIC WATER - you'll lose, at worst, 10 percent of the IGF-1 solution.

(4) ADDING THE ACID WATER
For the purposes of mathematical ease, I suggest mixing the dry 1 milligram (1,000 microgram) IGF-1 with 3ml (or 3cc) of the "acid water" mixture.

(5) PRESERVATION OF THE IGF-1
Next,using a 1cc insulin syringe,draw out 1cc out of the bottle containing the 3cc acid water/IGF-1 mixture.In a seperate 1cc insulin syringe,draw up another 1cc of the solution.Freeze these two loaded insulin syringes.They will be utilized at a later date.

NOTE:Freezing can safely and effectively preserve IGF-1(even after its been mixed)

(6)THE CORRECT DILUTION
To the remaining 1cc of IGF-1 thats left in the glass bottle,add 2cc of bacteriostatic water.This will return the total volume back up to 3cc.

(7)THE MATHEMATICS
(A)The original concentration of the IGF-1 solution was 1mg(1000 micrograms)
IGF-1 in 3cc of water.

(B)Each 1cc that was removed,then,contained approximately 333 micrograms IGF-1 per 1cc.

1,000 micrograms/3cc = 333 micrograms per 1cc

©The 1cc that was left in the bottle,then,also contains 333 micrograms of IGF-1.

(D)Next,we added 2cc of bacteriostatic water to the bottle and brought the volume back up to 3cc.The difference is we now have 333 micrograms in 3cc of water (instead of in 1cc)

(E)To determine how much IGF-1 is in 1cc,you must divide by three.

333 micrograms/3cc=111 micrograms per 1cc

(F)To determine how much IGF-1 is in .10cc (or 1/10thcc) we do the following.

111 micrograms/10=11micrograms per .10cc

(8)EFFICTIVE DOSAGES OF IGF-1
Dosages in the range of 10 to 20 micrograms per day(taken 10 to 15 minuters after training) are quite effective for building and repairing muscle tissue.
More importantly,these moderate dosages (by some peoples estimation)
stimulate muscle growth yet escape rapid "downregulation" of the all important IGF-1 receptors.
Without receptors to recognize the IGF-1,it doesnt matter how much you inject.
NOTHING will happen.
As dosages climb to over 50 micrograms per day,receptor downgrade increases exponentially and,from what I've observed among bodybuilders,muscle gains come to a screeching hault.

Bodybuilders will have the most sucess with IGF-1 if they follow the protocol I outlined below. REMEMBER, more isn't always better.

11 micrograms per day for 30 days (cycle 1) 333 micrograms

2 weeks OFF

11 micrograms per day for 30 days (cycle 2)** 333 micrograms

2 weeks OFF

11 micrograms per day for 30 days (cycle 3)** 333 micrograms

8 weeks OFF


** The second and third cycles of IGF-1 treatment require that the two Frozen 1cc insulin syringes be defrosted(only defrost one per cycle).
Next,inject the defrosted solution into an empty bottle.
Further dilute with 2cc bacteriostatic water. When adding the 2cc of water,use the syringe that originally held the frozen IGF-1.
This also helps to wash the syringe and ensure that no IGF-1 is stuck inside of it.

[Shaun73]

P What would be the better choice for gyno prevention on this cycle. I am kinda prone to gyno. Ive never done this much test aswell before, the most wast 1g/week

1500mg test e a week
600 decca/week
5iu gh daily

Iether 40mg nolvadex ed
or 1mg arimidex, ed, eod, or 0.5mg arimidex eod

[Praetorian]

P What would be the better choice for gyno prevention on this cycle. I am kinda prone to gyno. Ive never done this much test aswell before, the most wast 1g/week

1500mg test e a week
600 decca/week
5iu gh daily

Iether 40mg nolvadex ed
or 1mg arimidex, ed, eod, or 0.5mg arimidex eod

.5mg EOD shoudl be fine....nolva will help if that doesnt work at 20mg ED...only if necessary.
P

[nitrous]

IM in the delts is best...and yes 5iu on a slin pin would be 10mcg at that solution. See below on proper use, storage, and mixing IGF.
P


Dave Palumbo on IGF-1

(1)-STORAGE OF IGF-1(prior to mixing)
lyophilized (dry) IGF-1is stable at room temperture for three weeks;however,it should be stored below -18 degrees celsius (in the freezer section).

(2)WEIGHT OF IGF-1
1 milligram (mg) IGF-1 = 1,000 mcg (micrograms) IGF-1 (dry weight- before mixing).

(3) WHAT TO MIX THE IGF-1 WITH
when reconstituting,its important to remember IGF-1 can get "stuck" in the grooves of the glass bottle it comes packaged in. while glass appears smooth to the naked eye, under a microscope, it's a convoluted landscape of grooves and hidden recesses.
By mixing the lyophilized IGF-1 with an "acid water" (e.g., 10mM HCL -very dilute hydochloric acid), the IGF-1 molecules are efficiently detached from the glass and solubilized in the mixture. Any online "compounding" laboratory could mix up a 10mM HCL solution. likewise, any intro chemistry student should be able to do the same.
If a reliable source of "acid water" can't be located, mix your IGF-1 powder with BACTERIOSTATIC WATER - you'll lose, at worst, 10 percent of the IGF-1 solution.

(4) ADDING THE ACID WATER
For the purposes of mathematical ease, I suggest mixing the dry 1 milligram (1,000 microgram) IGF-1 with 3ml (or 3cc) of the "acid water" mixture.

(5) PRESERVATION OF THE IGF-1
Next,using a 1cc insulin syringe,draw out 1cc out of the bottle containing the 3cc acid water/IGF-1 mixture.In a seperate 1cc insulin syringe,draw up another 1cc of the solution.Freeze these two loaded insulin syringes.They will be utilized at a later date.

NOTE:Freezing can safely and effectively preserve IGF-1(even after its been mixed)

(6)THE CORRECT DILUTION
To the remaining 1cc of IGF-1 thats left in the glass bottle,add 2cc of bacteriostatic water.This will return the total volume back up to 3cc.

(7)THE MATHEMATICS
(A)The original concentration of the IGF-1 solution was 1mg(1000 micrograms)
IGF-1 in 3cc of water.

(B)Each 1cc that was removed,then,contained approximately 333 micrograms IGF-1 per 1cc.

1,000 micrograms/3cc = 333 micrograms per 1cc

©The 1cc that was left in the bottle,then,also contains 333 micrograms of IGF-1.

(D)Next,we added 2cc of bacteriostatic water to the bottle and brought the volume back up to 3cc.The difference is we now have 333 micrograms in 3cc of water (instead of in 1cc)

(E)To determine how much IGF-1 is in 1cc,you must divide by three.

333 micrograms/3cc=111 micrograms per 1cc

(F)To determine how much IGF-1 is in .10cc (or 1/10thcc) we do the following.

111 micrograms/10=11micrograms per .10cc

(8)EFFICTIVE DOSAGES OF IGF-1
Dosages in the range of 10 to 20 micrograms per day(taken 10 to 15 minuters after training) are quite effective for building and repairing muscle tissue.
More importantly,these moderate dosages (by some peoples estimation)
stimulate muscle growth yet escape rapid "downregulation" of the all important IGF-1 receptors.
Without receptors to recognize the IGF-1,it doesnt matter how much you inject.
NOTHING will happen.
As dosages climb to over 50 micrograms per day,receptor downgrade increases exponentially and,from what I've observed among bodybuilders,muscle gains come to a screeching hault.

Bodybuilders will have the most sucess with IGF-1 if they follow the protocol I outlined below. REMEMBER, more isn't always better.

11 micrograms per day for 30 days (cycle 1) 333 micrograms

2 weeks OFF

11 micrograms per day for 30 days (cycle 2)** 333 micrograms

2 weeks OFF

11 micrograms per day for 30 days (cycle 3)** 333 micrograms

8 weeks OFF


** The second and third cycles of IGF-1 treatment require that the two Frozen 1cc insulin syringes be defrosted(only defrost one per cycle).
Next,inject the defrosted solution into an empty bottle.
Further dilute with 2cc bacteriostatic water. When adding the 2cc of water,use the syringe that originally held the frozen IGF-1.
This also helps to wash the syringe and ensure that no IGF-1 is stuck inside of it.


thanks bro did everything as adviced we'll see how it goes

[z83]

Hi P,

I'm starting week 8 of keto. Haven't cheated or missed a cardio day. I'm down 20-21lbs from the beginning. I had cheat meal from week 2 on sundays.

Would it be wrong to have a cheat day. Nothing excessive, like a regular dieting day...but...eggs with toast, chicken with rice, steak with potato...instead of the giant cheat meal ? I'm not competing, simply looking to drop BF.

Thanks

[LonelyBedouin]

Hey P, whats your opinion on pct for a test e only cycle? Ive read both pct required and without. Just wondering your take on this.

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

I'm starting week 8 of keto. Haven't cheated or missed a cardio day. I'm down 20-21lbs from the beginning. I had cheat meal from week 2 on sundays.

Would it be wrong to have a cheat day. Nothing excessive, like a regular dieting day...but...eggs with toast, chicken with rice, steak with potato...instead of the giant cheat meal ? I'm not competing, simply looking to drop BF.

Thanks

Having a cheat day will dramatically slow fat loss and getting back into ketosis will take 2-3 times longer. If you are ok with this then go ahead.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P, whats your opinion on pct for a test e only cycle? Ive read both pct required and without. Just wondering your take on this.

PCT is required for any cycle...especially a cycle using test.
P

[nitrous]

Continuing with Long r3 igf-1 what do you think of doing high dosages EOD instead of the lower ED so that the receptors get a break?

recommend injecting them in muscles worked like bi's and tri's and pecs? never done any of those so just curious

[Praetorian]

Continuing with Long r3 igf-1 what do you think of doing high dosages EOD instead of the lower ED so that the receptors get a break?

recommend injecting them in muscles worked like bi's and tri's and pecs? never done any of those so just curious

Site injecting wont help IGF become systemic in minutes. Large dose injection even EOD will render receptors downgraded completely...youll be wasting your IGF and money.
P

[ubcpower]

Prae,
What do you think about the DOGGCRAPP program?
For someone who has trained high volume year after year, I am thinking about giving it a try in September for an offseason. Your thoughts on the program?

[nitrous]

Site injecting wont help IGF become systemic in minutes. Large dose injection even EOD will render receptors downgraded completely...youll be wasting your IGF and money.
P

sounds good i'll stick with it your way.. i was just reading this thread which had some interesing info:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/18818-my-take-igf-1-a.html

but it's also quite old now with igf-1lr3 being a relaively new peptide in respect to how long AAS has been around

also i've always thought the idea of doing some new site pinning would be fun but probably just a higher potential for getting an abscess

[Praetorian]

Just a repost by request...
P

HPTA reversal using HCG+Clomid+Tamoxifen

Objective:
Although shown to be effective for their intended medical treatment, AAS have been shown to induce hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in adult males. The medical literature is conflicting in the reports of spontaneous return and long-term suppression of gonadal suppression post AAS usage. This observational study documents the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning hormonal function to normal post AAS usage. Design:
Five HIV-negative males age 27-49, weighing 77-100 kg, with serum total testosterone levels below 240 ng/dL and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels below 1.5 mIU/mL were considered for this observational study. All five patients were administered the treatment protocol.
Methods:
Treatment consisted of combination therapy which included concurrent administration of (a) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, (b) Clomiphene Citrate and (c) Tamoxifen Citrate for a standard duration of 45 days. This protocol was repeated with every patient until serum LH and total testosterone values reached normal ranges.
Results:
All five patients were considered eugonadal by normal laboratory reference ranges by the conclusion of treatment. Average serum total testosterone rose from 98.2 to 692.8 ng/dL (p<.001) while the average serum LH rose from an average undetectable value of less than 1.0 to 7.92 mIU/mL (p<.0008).

Conclusions: Although the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen proved beneficial in reversing AAS induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, future controlled studies need to be performed to confirm the beneficial effects of this combined pharmacotherapy in returning HPGA functioning to normal.
Key Words- anabolic-androgenic steroids, clomiphene, HCG, tamoxifen, testosterone, HIV

INTRODUCTION
Testosterone and testosterone analogues, anabolic-androgenic steroids
(AAS), have long been used in the athletic community for improving lean muscle tissue and strength. A positive correlation has been shown with testosterone to include:
increased protein synthesis resulting in lean muscle tissue development (Bhasin et al, 1996; 1997; Hervey et al, 1981; Tenover, 1992),
enhanced sexual desire (libido) (Schiavi et al, 1991),
increased muscular strength (Bhasin et al, 1996; 1997; Hervey et al, 1981; Sih et al, 1997),
increased erythropoiesis (Bhasin et al, 1997; Evans & Amerson, 1974; Sih et al, 1997; Tenover, 1992),
a possible positive effect on bone development (Anderson et al, 1996; 1997; Baran et al, 1978; Tenover, 1992),
improved mental cognition and verbal fluency (Alexander et al, 1998), and male masculinizing characteristics (Starr & Taggart, 1992).

Recently, however, clinicians have recognized the potential benefits of their use in the treatment of various disorders and ailments. Numerous studies have discussed the use of AAS in the treatment of HIV-associated conditions (Bhasin et al, 2000; Grinspoon et al, 1998; 1999; 2000; Rabkin et al, 1999; 2000; Sattler et al, 1999; Strawford et al, 1999; Van Loan et al, 1999), hypogonadism (Bhasin et al, 1997; Davidson et al, 1979; Rabkin et al, 1999; Sih et al, 1997; Snyder et al, 2000; Tenover, 1992; Wagner & Rabkin, 1998; Wang et al, 2000), impotence (Carani et al, 1990; Carey et al, 1988; Klepsch et al, 1982; Lawrence et al, 1998; McClure et al, 1991; Morales et al, 1994; 1997; Nankin et al, 1986 Rakic et al, 1997; Schiavi et al, 1997), burn victims (Demling et al, 1997), various anemia’s (Doney et al, 1992; Gascon et al, 1999; Hurtado et al, 1993; Stricker et al, 1984), deteriorated myocardium (Tomoda, 1999), glucose uptake (Hobbs et al, 1996), continuous ambulatory peritoneal dialysis (CAPD) (Dombros et al, 1994), alcoholic hepatitis (Bonkovskyet al 1991; Mendenhall et al, 1993), hemochromatosis (Kley et al, 1992) and prevention of osteoporosis (Anderson et al, 1996; 1997; Baran et al, 1978; Behre et al 1997; Hamdy et al, 1998; Prakasam et al, 1999).
While AAS have proven effective in cases of lean muscle wasting conditions (HIV/AIDS), this class of medicines is not without their inherent problems. AAS have been shown to induce hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (Alen et al, 1987; Bhasin et al, 1996; Bijlsma et al, 1982; Clerico et al, 1981; Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990; Strawford et al, 1999; Stromme et al, 1974). This condition typically results from an abnormality in the normal functioning of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis (HPGA), usually from a negative feedback inhibition of one of the hormone secreting glands, causing a cascading unbalance in the rest of the axis. Possibly resulting from a physiological abnormality (i.e. mumps orchitis, Klinefelters syndrome, pituitary tumor) or as an acquired result of exogenous factors (i.e. androgen therapy, AAS administration). Clerico et al (1981) found a dramatic suppression of serum gonadotropin levels in athletes given methandrostenelone, suggesting a direct action of AAS on the hypothalamus. Similar results of suppressed gonadotropins have been found in patients supplementing solely testosterone (Bhasin et al, 1996; Marynick et al, 1979; Strawford et al, 1999; Tenover, 1992). Case report studies discussed a 36-year old male competitive bodybuilder and a 39-year old father, each using various AAS regimens over extended periods of time, who showed a blunted response to GnRH stimulation tests (Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990). One particular study administered 600 mg of nandrolone decanoate to 30 HIV-positive males over twelve weeks (Sattler et al, 1999). The results made no reference to LH or testosterone levels. The lack of gonadotropin measurement is puzzling as the data showed 12 of 30 subjects experienced testicular shrinkage, implying Leydig cell dysfunction and suppressed testosterone levels. Other studies using AAS have also shown no reference to LH or FSH levels but suppressed values are expected in each case (Bagatell et al, 1994; Behre et al, 1997; Sheffield-Moore et al, 1999; Tricker et al, 1996).
Declining, or suppressed, circulating testosterone levels as a result of either pathophysiological or induced hypogonadal conditions can have many negative consequences in males. Declining levels of testosterone have been directly linked to a progressive decrease in muscle mass (Mauras et al, 1998), loss of libido (Schiavi et al, 1991), decrease in muscular strength (Balagopal et al, 1997; Mauras et al, 1998) impotence (Rakic et al, 1997), oligospermia or azoospermia (Vermeulen & Kaufman, 1995), increase in adiposity (Mauras et al, 1998) and an increased risk of osteoporosis (Wishart et al, 1995).
While some research suggests that the hormonal axis will spontaneously return to normal shortly after cessation of testosterone administration (Knuth et al, 1989), documented cases have taken up to 2 ½ years to return to normal (Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990). This case of a 39-year old male who previously used AAS was found to have low serum testosterone levels (6nmol/L, range 14 to 28 nmol/L) 2 ½ years after his last administration of the drugs (Jarow & Lipshultz, 1990). For most men, suffering with diminished libido, impotence, depression, fatigue, muscle atrophy, and infertility for 2 ½ years is not a pleasant option. Other androgen or anabolic steroid induced cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism have taken 6 months (Gazvani et al, 1997; Wu et al, 1996), 8 months (Gazvani et al, 1997), 10 months (Boyadjiev et al, 2000), 12 months (Schurmeyer et al, 1984), and 18 months (Gazvani et al, 1997) to finally return to eugonadal status.
The individual use of human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen citrate in the treatment of testicular sub-function and gonadotropin suppression, respectively, is well documented. HCG has been shown to significantly improve gonadal function in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal adult males (Barrio et al, 1999; Burgess & Calderon, 1997; Cisternino et al, 1998; D’Agata et al, 1982; 1984; Dunkel et al, 1985; Kelly et al, 1982; Ley & Leonard, 1985; Liu et al, 1988; Martikainen et al, 1986; Okuyama et al, 1986; Ulloa-Aguirre et al, 1985; Vicari et al, 1992). Studies using clomiphene citrate to induce endogenous gonadotropin production in males found significant improvements in LH and FSH values after treatment (Bjork et al, 1977; Burge et al, 1997; Guay et al, 1995; Landefeld et al, 1983; Lim & Fang, 1976; Ross et al, 1980; Spijkstra et al, 1988). Tamoxifen citrate has also been found to produce a profound increase in serum LH levels as well as improved semen and sperm quality (Gazvani et al, 1997; Krause et al, 1985; Lewis-Jones et al, 1987; Wu et al, 1996).
As HCG’s effect is centralized at the Leydig cells of the testicles, clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen citrate act upon the hypothalamic-pituitary region in stimulating gonadotropin production. Tamoxifen, a nonsteroidal antiestrogen, and clomiphene citrate, a nonsteroidal ovulatory stimulant, compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary and allowing gonadotropin production to resume normally. The normal operation of both the testicular and hypothalamic-pituitary regions is crucial in returning HPGA function to normal. Returning one component of the axis to normal without concurrently returning the other would sabotage and inhibit the operation of the entire HPGaxis. It was with this understanding that HCG was eventually combined with clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen as attempted therapy to reverse gonada function in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal males.
In accordance with previous studies, each medication was used individually, and along with HCG, in initial trials. The simultaneous use of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen was determined through preliminary use of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen individually. It was discovered that although both clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen met with some success, when combined together they achieved a more significant increase in gonadotropin production. This clinical outcome resulted in the combination therapy of HCG, clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen.

Following is a clinical evaluation of the combined, simultaneous use of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen citrate as a treatment option in suppressed testosterone and gonadotropin levels in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal adult males. This observational analysis of the aforementioned treatment protocol assessed the efficacy of these medicines under non-controlled conditions.

METHODS
An observational study was done on the medical records of 5 adult male patients presenting to a clinic with induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Patients were monitored and treatment recorded for the purposes of this observational study.
SUBJECTS
The medical records of five males age 27-49, mean 35.2, weighing 77-100 kg, mean 89.8 kg, with serum total testosterone levels below 240 ng/dL and serum luteinizing hormone (LH) levels below 1.5 mIU/mL were examined. Average presenting testosterone level was 98.2 ng/dL (normal= 240-827 ng/dL) while average LH level was undetectable at <1.0 mIU/mL (normal= 1.5-9.3 mIU/mL). The 5 patients had a history of AAS usage ranging from 9-60 months prior to presentation. All patients had ceased any testosterone therapy or AAS usage prior to initiation of treatment. Initial laboratory values confirmed that all patients had discontinued AAS long enough for endogenous lab values to fall below normal reference ranges. All patients were muscular in nature with an average BMI less than 27 at presentation. Table 1 presents the patient characteristics, anabolic history, and side effects upon presentation of the 5 patients.

LABORATORY STUDIES
Initial blood screening consisted of:
AST, ALT, GGT, TOTAL CHOLESTEROL, LH, FSH, TESTOSTERONE, GLUCOSE, PROLACTIN, PSA TOTAL, TSH, T3 UPTAKE, T4 TOTAL, T4 FREE, HEMOGLOBIN, HEMATOCRIT
Table 2 shows all baseline serum blood levels at presentation. Baseline blood screening excluded any form of hyperprolactinemia or hypothyroidism as causes of hypogonadism in most patients. After physician examination and history and physical evaluation, it was determined that a history of AAS usage was present and most likely the cause of the patients’ hypogonadotropic hypogonadal lab values; not hyperprolactinemia or hypothyroidism.
Laboratory testing was performed by Quest Diagnostics Inc., (Houston, TX) and SmithKline Beecham Clinical Laboratories, (Houston, TX). Repeat serum LH & testosterone samples were measured by immunoassay using chiron reagant kits on an ACS-180 instrument.

METHODS
A review of patients’ medical records showed a treatment intervention of (a) human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) (Ferring Pharmaceuticals), (b) clomiphene citrate (Teva Pharmaceuticals), and (c) tamoxifen (AstraZeneca). Typical dosage of HCG consisted of 2500 units every other day for 16 days.
All HCG injections were self-administered intramuscularly. Starting dosages of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen were 50mg and 20 mg daily, respectively. Patients started all three medications simultaneously and reported for the first follow-up blood work after completion of HCG, 16 days later. The post HCG blood analysis assessed testosterone-total response only. If testicular stimulation, i.e. testosterone production, was inadequate, additional HCG was administered at this stage of therapy rather than waiting an additional 30-45 days before the protocol completion. If the testicular response to the HCG demonstrated sufficient testicular stimulation (typically a blood serum level of >300 ng/dL), clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen were continued for 15 and 30 days, respectively. The arbitrary cut-off level of 300 ng/dL was used as a general assessment where sufficient Leydig cell stimulation was taking place even in light of artificial stimulation from HCG. A repeat blood sample was then taken at day 45 to assess hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis status via luteinizing hormone and total testosterone levels. Because of the varying cessation times of the medications, the concluding blood sample was taken after a 30 and 15-day washout period of HCG and clomiphene citrate, respectively. For HPGA function to be considered normal, both LH and testosterone values had to fall within the normal reference ranges. For the purposes of patient treatment, if LH and testosterone values were still below normal limits at the conclusion of 45 days of treatment, a repeat protocol administration of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen was given. This protocol was repeated with every patient until LH and testosterone values reached normal ranges.

RESULTS
All five patients were considered eugonadal by normal laboratory reference ranges by the conclusion of treatment. Average serum total testosterone rose from 98.2 to 692.8 ng/dL. Average serum LH rose from <1.0 to 7.92 mIU/mL. An average of 48,974 U of HCG (five 10,000 Unit boxes), 3412.5 mg of clomiphene citrate (68.25 50mg tablets), and 968.71 mg of tamoxifen (48.44 20mg tablets) were used to treat all patients to eugonadal. Total treatment time ranged from 43-120 days. Mean elapsed time from initiation of treatment to eugonadal was 68.6 days. Statistical analysis was performed using repeated measures ANOVA. Pre and post treatment testosterone values were significantly (p<.001) different as were the LH values (p<.0008). Table 3 demonstrates the hormone changes during the treatment period and the duration to eugonadal.

ADVERSE EVENTS
None of the study subjects had any serious or treatment-terminating effects as a result of the multi-drug protocol. No problems were noted with regards to parameters of normal urologic function or treatment causing gynecomastia. Any side effects documented at presentation were reversed by the conclusion of treatment.

DISCUSSION
This observational study demonstrates the possible efficacy of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen citrate in returning the HPGA to normal physiological function in adult males suffering from androgen induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. In the case of decreased testicular function manifested by low testosterone levels, it is of primary importance to first return the normal function of the testicular cells. The initial lack of response to HCG should not immediately be a cause for the initiation of testosterone replacement therapy, as with the current accepted therapy modality by many physicians. Blood analysis confirmed that no exogenous testosterone was administered during the treatment period, as exogenous androgens would have had a suppressive effect on endogenous gonadotropin production. Therefore, because of the corresponding normal gonadotropin and testosterone values, it is accepted that gonadotropin and testicular function were normal by the conclusion of treatment. The standard treatment of HIV-related muscle wasting, AAS therapy, may involve decades of treatment and the attendant problems with any therapy of a prolonged nature. Polycythemia vera, elevated hepatic enzymes, and prolonged negative alterations in lipid profile are a few of the dangers experienced by HIV patients administered AAS for extended periods. Of greatest concern is the increasing numbers of individuals who are currently being treated with AAS to increase muscle mass either for medicinal or recreational means without attention being given to periodically returning the HPGA to normal. With roughly 4 million men in the U.S. being considered hypogonadal (Lacayo R., 2000; Sheffield-Moore et al, 1999; Shelton DL, 2000), an estimated 200,000 men are currently receiving testosterone treatment for the condition (Shelton DL, 2000). As stated earlier, AAS are being prescribed to HIV & AIDS sufferers to combat progressive muscle loss. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported an estimated 635,000+ men diagnosed with AIDS through December 2000 while an estimated 97,700 have been reported with HIV (Centers for Disease Control, vol.12, No. 2, table 5; Centers for Disease Control, vol. 12, No. 2, table 6). In 2000 alone over 31,000 men were diagnosed with the AIDS virus (Centers for Disease Control, vol. 12, No. 2, figure 3). Between hypogonadal, AIDS, & HIV males, potentially over 900,000 men are being administered AAS therapy.
Studies recently published on patients suffering from various tissuedepleting conditions and HIV affliction (Bhasin et al, 2000; Grinspoon et al, 1998; 1999; 2000; Rabkin et al, 1999; 2000; Sattler et al, 1999; Strawford et al, 1999;1999; Van Loan et al, 1999) have not identified what should be done to restore normal endocrine status post-treatment. Considering the dosages and compounds administered in many studies, there is no question that subjects were left hypogonadal after therapy. In the cases where the periodic use of testosterone or AAS are necessary, intervention to return the HPGA to normal should be initiated as soon as possible after the cessation of the AAS. As described herein, a possible treatment modality may be the combined regimen of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen. Medical history has demonstrated examples of physician-induced complications resulting from treatment. Iatrogenic hyperthyroidism (Bartsch & Scheiber, 1981) and iatrogenic Cushing’s syndrome (Cihak & Beary, 1977; Kimmerle & Rolla, 1985; Smidt & Johnston, 1975; Tuel et al, 1990) are cases were administered medications or treatments provoked abnormalities in patients’ normal physiology. The administration of testosterone as a treatment for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism falls into this same category of causing endocrine related abnormalities (Bhasin et al, 1996; Marynick et al, 1979; Strawford et al, 1999; Tenover, 1992). Testosterone replacement therapy has proven to be very effective in reversing the symptoms of suppressed testosterone production, but does not treat the underlying cause of the deficiency. Positive effects of testosterone treatment; i.e. improved sex drive, improved sense of well-being, lean body mass; are all transient in light of plummeting gonadotropin levels. Upon cessation of testosterone treatment patients can expect a complete reversal of positive benefits as exogenously influenced testosterone levels metabolize and decline rapidly. Further controlled studies need to be performed showing the combined effects of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning HPGA functioning to normal. Long-term follow-up on these patients returning to normal will be necessary to ensure permanent reversal of hypogonadotropic hypogonadal conditions. In addition, studies documenting dose-response curves for pituitary inhibition and reversal due to AAS administration are critical in determining the correct dose, duration, and form of treatment that is optimal without causing permanent damage. When the need for long-term androgen use presents, using moderately supraphysiologic doses of androgens as suggested by Strawford and colleagues (1999) coupled with post-treatment HPGA restoration as demonstrated here, may be a more effective means over high-dose protocols used to offset negative alterations in lean body mass. Unfortunately current studies have yet to adequately address a standard of patient care post-androgen therapy. Because of the negative impact of the hypogonadal state on physical and mental well- being, pharmacotherapy that restores HPGA function more rapidly than current modalities would greatly benefit men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
While we believe that the treatment protocol was effective in returning normal hormonal function to these men, the lack of randomization or a control group leaves room for speculation. Although cases of spontaneous return to eugonadism with no medicinal intervention have been published, these reports documented durations anywhere from 6-18 months before normal hormone status was achieved (Gazvani et al, 1997; Wu et al, 1996). If the alternative treatment modality described herein can reverse suppressed gonadotropin production and AAS associated side effects much sooner than non-treatment, further evaluation of this therapy should continue.


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Anderson FH, Francis RM, Faulkner K. Androgen Supplementation in Eugonadal Men with Osteoporosis: Effects of Six Months of Treatment on Bone Mineral Density and Cardiovascular Risk Factors. Bone. 1996 Feb; 18(2): 171-177.
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[ubcpower]

Prae,
What do you think about the DOGGCRAPP training?
For someone who has trained high volume year after year, I am thinking about giving it a try in September for an offseason. Your thoughts on the program?

bump for P

[Praetorian]

bump for P

I spoke about this before...any change in training will lead to gains...its very similar to the "training effect" in new trainees. However that will only last so long. DC training works best on advanced lifters who have mastered lifting technique and the ability to fully focus 100%...this only comes with many years of upper level training. This is necessary in order to get intensity levels high enough to reap the effect of DC. Younger less experienced lifters will benefit more with volume work becuase intensity levels are inherently much lower...not their fault thats just the way it is.
P

[Shaun73]

hey p after i reconstitute my GH how long does it stay good for if left out of the fridge? i was thinking of taking it to the gym with me so i can shoot post workout.

[Praetorian]

hey p after i reconstitute my GH how long does it stay good for if left out of the fridge? i was thinking of taking it to the gym with me so i can shoot post workout.

That would be silly and useless....take it in the morning and when you get home from the gym. Once its reconstituted it is very fragile and wont last long out of the fridge.
P

[Shaun73]

thanks p

[trevorbc]

What are you feelings of the subject on PCT after cycle, and do you feel there needs to be as much emphasis on it as there is or could less actually be better for gyno depending on the cycle and length you run it?

I like the way you train and your routines, I have a question for you about the pre exhaust principle and if you have used it much at all in the past? If so do you find it helps with your gains overall for say chest and shoulders, or does it hinder and take away from your actual session by the dropping in weight?

Also I was wondering about your thoughts on blood volume training, do you agree with its basics along the pump principle have you ever used this method to increase size, or are you more a believer of weight over volume?

Thank you very much for your time in reading this and any answers given.

[Praetorian]

What are you feelings of the subject on PCT after cycle, and do you feel there needs to be as much emphasis on it as there is or could less actually be better for gyno depending on the cycle and length you run it?

*PCT is as important as your cycle if guys actually spent some money and time understanding PCT they would be healthier and and retain much more muscle. PCT doesnt cause gyno if done correctly.

I like the way you train and your routines, I have a question for you about the pre exhaust principle and if you have used it much at all in the past? If so do you find it helps with your gains overall for say chest and shoulders, or does it hinder and take away from your actual session by the dropping in weight?

*Im not fond of pre exhaust on all exercises...on some it can be beneficial but I would use it sparingly. In the majority of cases the strongest guys are the biggest guys...in BB terms...this means you need to move some big weights.

Also I was wondering about your thoughts on blood volume training, do you agree with its basics along the pump principle have you ever used this method to increase size, or are you more a believer of weight over volume?

* A good pump feel great and is fine but you need to stress the muscle with a stimulus so that it can adapt and grow...weight does this...a pump doesnt. Thats why there are all kinds of Jersey Shore guys running around who think they are big but cant hit 200lbs on gear.

Thank you very much for your time in reading this and any answers given.

My pleasure,
P

[z83]

Hi P,

While doing keto (been on it for 8 weeks now, working good), is there a possible replacement to shakes. My stomach/brain are borderline accepting/refusing them. I have few flavours, different brand but thinking about an upcomming shake make me puke in my mouth. Anything possible...egg whites ?

I promise i'll have shakes PWO only when i'm done with keto. Real food FTW

Thanks sir !

[Praetorian]

Hi P,

While doing keto (been on it for 8 weeks now, working good), is there a possible replacement to shakes. My stomach/brain are borderline accepting/refusing them. I have few flavours, different brand but thinking about an upcomming shake make me puke in my mouth. Anything possible...egg whites ?

I promise i'll have shakes PWO only when i'm done with keto. Real food FTW

Thanks sir !

You dont have to have any shakes on keto...you can eat all whole food meals.
P

[z83]

You dont have to have any shakes on keto...you can eat all whole food meals.
P

If I had known :(

what can I use to replace a shake ? another cashew/chicken or meat/veggies/olive oil meal ?

Thanks again, VERY appreciated :)

[Praetorian]

If I had known :(

what can I use to replace a shake ? another cashew/chicken or meat/veggies/olive oil meal ?

Thanks again, VERY appreciated :)

Use a chicken and nut meal.
P

[z83]

Use a chicken and nut meal.
P

MEAL #1
5 whole eggs OMEGA-3 + 4 egg whites

MEAL #2 & 3 & 4
"Lean Protein Meal": 7oz chicken (or tuna) with 1/3-cup cashew nuts

MEAL #5
"Fatty Protein Meal": 7oz RED MEAT with 1 cup of broco and 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil

MEAL #6
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1.5 tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter
or 4 whole (omega-3) eggs and 4 extra white... choose eggs almost all the time

Thanks, can give you green atm

[Praetorian]

MEAL #1
5 whole eggs OMEGA-3 + 4 egg whites

MEAL #2 & 3 & 4
"Lean Protein Meal": 7oz chicken (or tuna) with 1/3-cup cashew nuts

MEAL #5
"Fatty Protein Meal": 7oz RED MEAT with 1 cup of broco and 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil

MEAL #6
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1.5 tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter
or 4 whole (omega-3) eggs and 4 extra white... choose eggs almost all the time

Thanks, can give you green atm

Yep thats fine...you can alternate chicken and tuna if you like.
P

[benP]

Hey P,
I'm trying to cut right now and am having trouble finding my body fat percentage. In your opinion what would be the best way for me to do this from home? I found this from google and plan on trying it tomorrow morning, but I'm not sure if it's reliable or accurate at all.
Thanks in advance,
\/
Body Fat Formula For Men
Factor 1 (Total body weight x 1.082) + 94.42
Factor 2 Waist measurement x 4.15
Lean Body Mass Factor 1 - Factor 2
Body Fat Weight Total bodyweight - Lean Body Mass
Body Fat Percentage (Body Fat Weight x 100) / total bodyweight

[Praetorian]

Hey P,
I'm trying to cut right now and am having trouble finding my body fat percentage. In your opinion what would be the best way for me to do this from home? I found this from google and plan on trying it tomorrow morning, but I'm not sure if it's reliable or accurate at all.
Thanks in advance,
\/
Body Fat Formula For Men
Factor 1 (Total body weight x 1.082) + 94.42
Factor 2 Waist measurement x 4.15
Lean Body Mass Factor 1 - Factor 2
Body Fat Weight Total bodyweight - Lean Body Mass
Body Fat Percentage (Body Fat Weight x 100) / total bodyweight

I really dont see any point in determining bodyfat %...even with the best methods they are still far from accurate and the numbers wont help you anyway. The best method by far is the mirror it doesnt lie.
P

[benP]

I was told that its better to work on LBM calculations rather than total body mass, when figuring out my intake of macronutrients. Like LBM times (x)calories as opposed to multiplying my body weight. Would you recommend just sticking to a fixed number of calories and tinkering with that until I start seeing results, or something else? Sorry, I'm pretty clueless here.

[Praetorian]

I was told that its better to work on LBM calculations rather than total body mass, when figuring out my intake of macronutrients. Like LBM times (x)calories as opposed to multiplying my body weight. Would you recommend just sticking to a fixed number of calories and tinkering with that until I start seeing results, or something else? Sorry, I'm pretty clueless here.

I dont count calories when dieting with myself or my clients. I make sure to get in a specific number of meals with the proper amount of protein and fat for a specific range of lean mass...carbs are trace only anyways. Only for very special cases will I vary the formula..ie a very high metabolism or a genetic freak. Counting calories to me is a waste of time because your caloric requirements change day to day depending on what you do so trying to be specific is acutally impossible and wouldnt be accurate either.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

when they say or someone says life time drug free bb or natural bb, are they meaning what it is like that they have never taken a banned substance as listed by the ioc or wada or they are drugged up until weeks x before competioin and ride the remaining weeks drug free?

i find it very hard to believe some natural bodybuilders who claim that

what u think?

[btufts]

P,

As for off season dietting do you try to stay relatively lean after a contest and how do you stay that lean all year and still put on quality muscle

[Praetorian]

P,

As for off season dietting do you try to stay relatively lean after a contest and how do you stay that lean all year and still put on quality muscle

The body operates more efficiently and optimally when you are lean. I would suggest trying to stay within 10-12 % BF for a male BB offseason. After dieting for a contest you introduce carbs back in to the diet slowly...every other meal at first thus preventing water retention and peripheral edema...which is very dangerous. Once the body is able to assimilate carbs efficiently again...you can increase the amounts...however carbs are simply used as an energy source offseason...they do not directly build muscle...protein and fat do that. Thus it is better to have only enough carbs to feed your day to day energy requirements including training and no more. By limiting carb intake to only what is required you will deposit very little fat.
Most guys load up on carbs because they ar enow off their diet, gain alot of water....ankles etc puff up but they like what the scale says in terms of numbers. The problem is they have gained very little muscle in the process. Muscle takes time to build and patience is key. Staying leaner requires will power but the body will respond much better to aas, training etc when you are leaner.
Have your cheat meal weekly but maintain a cleaner diet offseason...youll still gain quality muscle.
P

[Praetorian]

p,

when they say or someone says life time drug free bb or natural bb, are they meaning what it is like that they have never taken a banned substance as listed by the ioc or wada or they are drugged up until weeks x before competioin and ride the remaining weeks drug free?

i find it very hard to believe some natural bodybuilders who claim that

what u think?

The true definition of lifetime drug free is just that....never taken anything in their life. Whether that is true or not will always be a debate...i couldnt care less if they are or are not...i just concentrate on what my goals are and worry about that. People will say and do whatever they please...so tryiing to argue the point is a waste of time.
P

[btufts]

The body operates more efficiently and optimally when you are lean. I would suggest trying to stay within 10-12 % BF for a male BB offseason. After dieting for a contest you introduce carbs back in to the diet slowly...every other meal at first thus preventing water retention and peripheral edema...which is very dangerous. Once the body is able to assimilate carbs efficiently again...you can increase the amounts...however carbs are simply used as an energy source offseason...they do not directly build muscle...protein and fat do that. Thus it is better to have only enough carbs to feed your day to day energy requirements including training and no more. By limiting carb intake to only what is required you will deposit very little fat.
Most guys load up on carbs because they ar enow off their diet, gain alot of water....ankles etc puff up but they like what the scale says in terms of numbers. The problem is they have gained very little muscle in the process. Muscle takes time to build and patience is key. Staying leaner requires will power but the body will respond much better to aas, training etc when you are leaner.
Have your cheat meal weekly but maintain a cleaner diet offseason...youll still gain quality muscle.
P

I did what ya told me there before cuba, protein veggie days for 2 days followed by every second meal having carbs down south. first day down there i was about 217 and my ankles were so full of blood/water it hurt, i couldnt see any veins. same with my wrists. I'm now just starting to put carbs back into all my meals and i was 198 this morning. should i try to maintain this weight for now?

[btufts]

also, how do you calculate how much carbs you need for a day? for example today i took completely off. no work no gym just lounging. I've had two meals so far 1) 1/2 cup oats with blueberries and 2 scoops protein and 2) 8oz chicken with 1 cup sweet potatoe, two rice cakes with peanut butter. Would i cut off carbs now? and same question as to workout days, I've been revolving my carb intake more so around the time i workout i.e- 2 meals before working gym, my post workout shake, and one meal after

[Praetorian]

I did what ya told me there before cuba, protein veggie days for 2 days followed by every second meal having carbs down south. first day down there i was about 217 and my ankles were so full of blood/water it hurt, i couldnt see any veins. same with my wrists. I'm now just starting to put carbs back into all my meals and i was 198 this morning. should i try to maintain this weight for now?

Have carbs with evry other meal about 30g and see how things go from there...if all is good you can slowly increase them to every meal. Gaining weight quickly is never a good idea because it is normally mostly water and fat. Let your body weight rise slowly...that means 1-2 pounds per week max.
P

[Praetorian]

also, how do you calculate how much carbs you need for a day? for example today i took completely off. no work no gym just lounging. I've had two meals so far 1) 1/2 cup oats with blueberries and 2 scoops protein and 2) 8oz chicken with 1 cup sweet potatoe, two rice cakes with peanut butter. Would i cut off carbs now? and same question as to workout days, I've been revolving my carb intake more so around the time i workout i.e- 2 meals before working gym, my post workout shake, and one meal after

Off seaso i have carbs with every meal because i want my protein and fats to be used for building. Its just something youll need to experiment with...smaller guys can get away with 30g per meal..bigger guys need 50g per meal...which is still not very much compared to what most guys would normally eat.
Start with 30g and monitor yourself from there.
P

[btufts]

Off seaso i have carbs with every meal because i want my protein and fats to be used for building. Its just something youll need to experiment with...smaller guys can get away with 30g per meal..bigger guys need 50g per meal...which is still not very much compared to what most guys would normally eat.
Start with 30g and monitor yourself from there.
P

Seeing as i've been losing weight now which i assume is all water as i've lost it so fast, what if i keep losing at 30g a meal? what about fats where do i start with them and would i increase fat first... seeing as fats contain more calories g for g than carbs

[Praetorian]

Seeing as i've been losing weight now which i assume is all water as i've lost it so fast, what if i keep losing at 30g a meal? what about fats where do i start with them and would i increase fat first... seeing as fats contain more calories g for g than carbs

You are losing water for sure...you should probably drop to about 10-12lbs over contest weight(what you should have weighed provided you were not constipated)....and then take it from there. 15g fat per meal is a good start...protein at 45g per meal...adjust your carb intake with that...once you know where you carb intake shoudl be you can adjust fat levels for increased cals.
P

[benP]

I dont count calories when dieting with myself or my clients. I make sure to get in a specific number of meals with the proper amount of protein and fat for a specific range of lean mass...carbs are trace only anyways. Only for very special cases will I vary the formula..ie a very high metabolism or a genetic freak. Counting calories to me is a waste of time because your caloric requirements change day to day depending on what you do so trying to be specific is acutally impossible and wouldnt be accurate either.
P

I weight 200 pounds give or take a few. What would be a good number of meals and a good amount of protein and fat for me to have while trying to cut?

[btufts]

I weight 200 pounds give or take a few. What would be a good number of meals and a good amount of protein and fat for me to have while trying to cut?

the dave palumbo template is set up in the nutrition section for keto. basically its 7-8oz meat with about 15-20g fat each meal. check the template and work from there

[btufts]

You are losing water for sure...you should probably drop to about 10-12lbs over contest weight(what you should have weighed provided you were not constipated)....and then take it from there. 15g fat per meal is a good start...protein at 45g per meal...adjust your carb intake with that...once you know where you carb intake shoudl be you can adjust fat levels for increased cals.
P

so in reality i should be about 175-177lbs???

[Praetorian]

so in reality i should be about 175-177lbs???

With water and all probably around 180 or so give or take. Depending on how dry you were prior...some will gain back more water than others. Your body will absorb everything and put on weight quickly if you let it...the key is to let it grow but not to let things get out of hand. 1-2 lbs per week is enough...thats roughly 5-10lbs per month approx...more for bigger guys less for smaller guys...its all relative.
P

[Memo]

Praetorian, I am actually taking 450mg/week of deca, 100mg/week or Test E & 300mg/week of masteron E. Ive been on this for about 5 weeks & it is really doing well for my BJJ training. The question is, Ive been feeling a lump under my left nips, but since i am on very low test, this is probably not estrogen related. I have aromasin on hand, but I was thinking that I might have to buy some caber. What kind of dosage should I use if caber is the answer, and do you think taking aromasin could help my situation.

Thank you

[steve_o]

Hey P,

I was curious as to your thoughts on the following? Do you prefer to eat less food in the offseason to stay leaner or doing more cardio? If that is unclear at all here is my dilema per se.

I am currently eating 40/40/20 split at 4000calories a day. I am gaining weight but I have noticed that I am getting up their for bodyfat %. I am probably sitting at 18% right now. I would like to cut down a bit but not sacrifice any muscle. Would you suggest cutting back on caloric intake or upping the cardio. I am doing cardio 2-3 times a week right now 30 minutes treadmill or elliptical.

Thanks in advance.

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, I am actually taking 450mg/week of deca, 100mg/week or Test E & 300mg/week of masteron E. Ive been on this for about 5 weeks & it is really doing well for my BJJ training. The question is, Ive been feeling a lump under my left nips, but since i am on very low test, this is probably not estrogen related. I have aromasin on hand, but I was thinking that I might have to buy some caber. What kind of dosage should I use if caber is the answer, and do you think taking aromasin could help my situation.

Thank you

Its tough to say exactly what it is... I doubt its prolactin related but you can try caber at .25-.5mg twice weekly. If that doesnt work you may want to try 20mg tamoxifen daily with the aromasin and see what happens. Your cycle seems a bit strange...why masteron ..it wont add strength etc its a cosmentic harderner only...test at 100mg weekly...yikes most would feel like crap on that much deca and so little test. I would drop the masteron, reduce the deca to 200mg weekly and up the test to 400mg weekly. Youll get better recovery and aggression from the additional test, less water from the deca and less overall sides. Save your money on the masteron its not doing much.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

I was curious as to your thoughts on the following? Do you prefer to eat less food in the offseason to stay leaner or do less cardio? If that is unclear at all here is my dilema per se.

I am currently eating 40/40/20 split at 4000calories a day. I am gaining weight but I have noticed that I am getting up their for bodyfat %. I am probably sitting at 18% right now. I would like to cut down a bit but not sacrifice any muscle. Would you suggest cutting back on caloric intake or upping the cardio. I am doing cardio 2-3 times a week right now 30 minutes treadmill or elliptical.

Thanks in advance.

You are eating too many carbs...cut back on the carbs..leave the cardio the same....see what happens. At 18% your body is running as efficiently as a car with two flat tires. I would really suggest doing a cutting diet and drop 10% BF then start a lean mass gaining program from there. Youll feel better, look better, and your body will function optimally.
P

[steve_o]

You are eating too many carbs...cut back on the carbs..leave the cardio the same....see what happens. At 18% your body is running as efficiently as a car with two flat tires. I would really suggest doing a cutting diet and drop 10% BF then start a lean mass gaining program from there. Youll feel better, look better, and your body will function optimally.
P

Will do thanks for the advice. I Pmed you regarding some details. Thanks again. I like the analogy of the car with 2 flat tires.

[Memo]

Its tough to say exactly what it is... I doubt its prolactin related but you can try caber at .25-.5mg twice weekly. If that doesnt work you may want to try 20mg tamoxifen daily with the aromasin and see what happens. Your cycle seems a bit strange...why masteron ..it wont add strength etc its a cosmentic harderner only...test at 100mg weekly...yikes most would feel like crap on that much deca and so little test. I would drop the masteron, reduce the deca to 200mg weekly and up the test to 400mg weekly. Youll get better recovery and aggression from the additional test, less water from the deca and less overall sides. Save your money on the masteron its not doing much.
P

I get very bad high blood pressure problem from Test. My cardio is day and night from 100 to 300 a week. I do know that my cycle is strange but my strength and endurance went up like never before, and my weight is very slowly going up, but I need to stay below 175.

I would not be surprise if I responded a little different to masteron than most people because, I really feel increase aggression, while all I am getting from test is increase sex drive to an extreme that makes my life miserable.

[Memo]

Following your input i decided to drop masteron & raise test to 300mg a week.

[bossman_1986]

for the dave palumbo diet he says you should be doing cardio under 120 bpm, what do you think of that? i feel thats low, i usually stay around 125, am i burning muscle going that high on the keto diet?

also i ate the regular peanut butter today because i ran out of the natural one, it says there's only 1g of sugar but in the ingredients they have added sugar, do you think that took me out of ketosis??

also, last question haha, im using caffeine, he says by restricting stimulants you can keep cortisol low so you can spare muscle, would i benefit more by not using the caffeine? because i want to keep as much muscle fibre as possible of course.

[Vitamin S]

p,

i noticed even though i do cardio 4-5 times weekly at 130 heart rate i still have troubles with huffing and puffing if i go for a jog or if i run faast upstairs with like even grocery bags lol. or the other day i carried my wife upstairs shes like 140lbs i was out of breath same thing with heavy bent over rows.

im 6 feet 250 at about 15 percent body fat so not out of shape but i thought my heart would be stronger. or is it totally differnt such as lung capacity. i am not a smoker but do casually here and there like every couple of weeks when i go out.

i thought any time u double ur resting heart rate u r strengthing the heart which is what im doing when do cardio i do 130bmp on incline walking.

[Praetorian]

for the dave palumbo diet he says you should be doing cardio under 120 bpm, what do you think of that? i feel thats low, i usually stay around 125, am i burning muscle going that high on the keto diet?
-STAYING BETWEEN 120-130 IS IDEAL...DAVE AGREES ON THIS

also i ate the regular peanut butter today because i ran out of the natural one, it says there's only 1g of sugar but in the ingredients they have added sugar, do you think that took me out of ketosis??
PROBABLY NOT BUT I WOULDNT CONTINUE USING IT...GET THE NATURAL STUFF

also, last question haha, im using caffeine, he says by restricting stimulants you can keep cortisol low so you can spare muscle, would i benefit more by not using the caffeine? because i want to keep as much muscle fibre as possible of course.

-A BIT OF CAFFIENE IS FINE...A LARGE COFFE PRIOR TO CARDIO AND TRAINING IS FINE



p

[Praetorian]

p,

i noticed even though i do cardio 4-5 times weekly at 130 heart rate i still have troubles with huffing and puffing if i go for a jog or if i run faast upstairs with like even grocery bags lol. or the other day i carried my wife upstairs shes like 140lbs i was out of breath same thing with heavy bent over rows.

im 6 feet 250 at about 15 percent body fat so not out of shape but i thought my heart would be stronger. or is it totally differnt such as lung capacity. i am not a smoker but do casually here and there like every couple of weeks when i go out.

i thought any time u double ur resting heart rate u r strengthing the heart which is what im doing when do cardio i do 130bmp on incline walking.

130 bpm is in the fat burning zone but too low to dramatically improve cardiovascular efficiency for most people. Smoking even casually like you are will also dramatically reduce efficiency...you need to stop that asap. 15% is a bit high BF wise..have you thought of going on a cutting diet to lean out for the summer? You will look and feel better and your body will repond better to training and nutrition and any cycles you may do.
P

[tiramisu]

-A BIT OF CAFFIENE IS FINE...A LARGE COFFE PRIOR TO CARDIO AND TRAINING IS FINE

p

Even as a long term caffeine addict I find a large coffee pre-workout really makes you sweat. I'm pretty sure a small is more than enough for the stimulant effect without the big sweat and diuretic effect. I suppose it depends on what you need but diarrhea and squats are not a terribly good combination.

.... and yes I generally do an xtra large pre-workout so I don't advise standing behind me on the squat rack. You've been warned.

[z83]

i'm also a caffeine junky, I hope it doesn't affect dieting too much
3 big coffees and often a suger free redbull or rockstar

[Praetorian]

Even as a long term caffeine addict I find a large coffee pre-workout really makes you sweat. I'm pretty sure a small is more than enough for the stimulant effect without the big sweat and diuretic effect. I suppose it depends on what you need but diarrhea and squats are not a terribly good combination.

.... and yes I generally do an xtra large pre-workout so I don't advise standing behind me on the squat rack. You've been warned.

For the optimum effect 200mg is ideal...so it depends on the strength of the coffee.
P

[btufts]

1 tbsp instant coffee is like 216mg

[ubcpower]

Hey P,
It is asking a lot but if you wouldnt mind eyeballing this cut diet of mine. I wont be competing this year so I will be doing my own summer cut diet and not working with anyone. It will also not be as 'extreme' as a keto. Plan is to stay on the same diet and just increase cardio steadily until end of summer. Using nothing but fat burner (Ripped Freak) Starting at about 5'11, 205lbs at about 9%.

Meal 1: C: 58 P: 50 F:15
• ½ cup dry oats
• 50 grams whey isolate
• 1tbsp Extra Virgin Olive Oil
• 1 banana
• 1 Dose Ripped Freak
PWO Meal: C:27 P: 50 F:0
• ½ cup dry oats
• 50 grams whey isolate

Meal 2: C: 27 P: 36 F: 30
• 6 Whole Eggs
• ½ cup Dry Oats

Meal 3: C: 18 P: 60 F:30
• ½ cup Cooked Brown Rice
• 70z Cooked Chicken Breast
• 1 cup steamed veggies
• 2tbsp of Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Meal 4: C: 18 P: 60 F: 30
• ½ cup Cooked Brown Rice
• 70z Cooked Chicken Breast
• 1 cup steamed veggies
• 2tbsp of Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Meal 5: C: 0 P: 50 F: 30
• 50 grams whey isolate
• 2 tbsp of Extra Virgin Olive Oil
• 1 tsp of Metamucil
TOTAL
Calories: 3021
P: 306 (1224 kcal) C: 148 (582 kcal) F: 135(1215kcal)

[Praetorian]

Hey P,
It is asking a lot but if you wouldnt mind eyeballing this cut diet of mine. I wont be competing this year so I will be doing my own summer cut diet and not working with anyone. It will also not be as 'extreme' as a keto. Plan is to stay on the same diet and just increase cardio steadily until end of summer. Using nothing but fat burner (Ripped Freak) Starting at about 5'11, 205lbs at about 9%.

Meal 1: C: 58 P: 50 F:15
• ½ cup dry oats
• 50 grams whey isolate
• 1tbsp Extra Virgin Olive Oil
• 1 banana
• 1 Dose Ripped Freak
PWO Meal: C:27 P: 50 F:0
• ½ cup dry oats
• 50 grams whey isolate

Meal 2: C: 27 P: 36 F: 30
• 6 Whole Eggs
• ½ cup Dry Oats

Meal 3: C: 18 P: 60 F:30
• ½ cup Cooked Brown Rice
• 70z Cooked Chicken Breast
• 1 cup steamed veggies
• 2tbsp of Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Meal 4: C: 18 P: 60 F: 30
• ½ cup Cooked Brown Rice
• 70z Cooked Chicken Breast
• 1 cup steamed veggies
• 2tbsp of Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Meal 5: C: 0 P: 50 F: 30
• 50 grams whey isolate
• 2 tbsp of Extra Virgin Olive Oil
• 1 tsp of Metamucil
TOTAL
Calories: 3021
P: 306 (1224 kcal) C: 148 (582 kcal) F: 135(1215kcal)

You can try it and see how it goes...seems like alot of fat for a non keto diet.
P

[JonnyO]

You can try it and see how it goes...seems like alot of fat for a non keto diet.
P

My thoughts as well, why are you adding the olive oils to those meals UBC?

[ubcpower]

My thoughts as well, why are you adding the olive oils to those meals UBC?

well if you look at the palumbo offseason or even contest diet its basically 20-30 grams fat each meal. Instead of doing the pb im doing the olive oil and instead of doing the nuts im doing the olive oil and with no red meat another tbsp of olive oil to make up for the sat fat missing from the meat. using for convenience sake and also for what I thought was "thermogenic properties" of the olive oil but that might be an urban legend.
I think im going to cut down to 1tbsp though for the chicken meals

[natenator]

well if you look at the palumbo offseason or even contest diet its basically 20-30 grams fat each meal. Instead of doing the pb im doing the olive oil and instead of doing the nuts im doing the olive oil and with no red meat another tbsp of olive oil to make up for the sat fat missing from the meat. using for convenience sake and also for what I thought was "thermogenic properties" of the olive oil but that might be an urban legend.
I think im going to cut down to 1tbsp though for the chicken meals
By reducing the pb and nuts you're also reducing the number of trace carbs needed for training purposes. Add in some extra veggies to your meals.

[Praetorian]

well if you look at the palumbo offseason or even contest diet its basically 20-30 grams fat each meal. Instead of doing the pb im doing the olive oil and instead of doing the nuts im doing the olive oil and with no red meat another tbsp of olive oil to make up for the sat fat missing from the meat. using for convenience sake and also for what I thought was "thermogenic properties" of the olive oil but that might be an urban legend.
I think im going to cut down to 1tbsp though for the chicken meals

Off season the diet is approx 15g fats per meal...remember you have carbs as a fuel source. Fat increases on the precontest diet however the meals that are shakes only contain approx 14g from 1.5 Tbsp PB and as Nate says trace carbs...without trace carbs your workouts will suffer...you still need some glycogen to train...the diet is specific...making changes like that will change the outcome.
P

[JonnyO]

well if you look at the palumbo offseason or even contest diet its basically 20-30 grams fat each meal. Instead of doing the pb im doing the olive oil and instead of doing the nuts im doing the olive oil and with no red meat another tbsp of olive oil to make up for the sat fat missing from the meat. using for convenience sake and also for what I thought was "thermogenic properties" of the olive oil but that might be an urban legend.
I think im going to cut down to 1tbsp though for the chicken meals

I understand the Palumbo diet dude, but you have carbs in there and your cutting. Thats whats throwing me off.

[bossman_1986]

have you ever did the keto diet without being on a cycle? would you lose alot of muscle mass/strength?

[monkey]

Hello P

I am on Keto....basically just kicking in.

noticed that the new protein powder i got has 2 g of sugar and 5 g of carbs per scoop... guess its going back to storage??

thx

[Mastagon]

Hey Prae,

Is there a problem with having the carbs from 2-3 meals a day come from oats or cream of wheat? I was thinking the other meals could be made up of w/w rice, w/w pasta, maybe yams... I'm just looking for a carb sources with slow release times/moderate GI and GL as I think I've screwed up my glucose tolerance from eating like an idiot for too long.

[Praetorian]

have you ever did the keto diet without being on a cycle? would you lose alot of muscle mass/strength?

I have many clients including woemn who run the keto diet 100% naturally....they dont lose an ounce of muscle. Keto is inherently muscle sparing....its basically a side effect of the diet itself. Strength will remain high until the last few weeks only when you remove both energy sources.
P

[Praetorian]

Hello P

I am on Keto....basically just kicking in.

noticed that the new protein powder i got has 2 g of sugar and 5 g of carbs per scoop... guess its going back to storage??

thx

Yep...get a 100% pure whey isolate...much better.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,

Is there a problem with having the carbs from 2-3 meals a day come from oats or cream of wheat? I was thinking the other meals could be made up of w/w rice, w/w pasta, maybe yams... I'm just looking for a carb sources with slow release times/moderate GI and GL as I think I've screwed up my glucose tolerance from eating like an idiot for too long.

Oatmeal shoudl be fine ...white rice and cream of wheat are pretty high GI....if you are carb sensitive avoid them..use sweet potatoe, oats, brown rice.
P

[Vitamin S]

p,

in addition to oatmeal for breakfast as a carb source how does sprouted grain bread rank. i was told it has a gi of 45 and no flour 2 slices have 37 carbs and 5g of fiber and 9 g of protein and 4g of sugar total 200 calories?

thx

[Praetorian]

p,

in addition to oatmeal for breakfast as a carb source how does sprouted grain bread rank. i was told it has a gi of 45 and no flour 2 slices have 37 carbs and 5g of fiber and 9 g of protein and 4g of sugar total 200 calories?

thx

Ezekiel bread is a better alternative...if you can handle the texture and taste.
P

[Mastagon]

I think I just need to go see a doctor to figure out what's wrong. The only carb sources I've been using are oatmeal, cream of wheat, basmati rice, whole grain rice, whole grain pasta, but even with these I feel hypoglycemic within an hour of the meal, and intolerably hungry, tired, headaches, fatigue, shakey after 2 hours. I know next to nothing about this sort of thing, but to me it feels like my blood sugar spikes after a meal, then rockets into the ground because my pancreas goes overboard with insulin production due to years of overeating. It just really floors me that this is happening with even slow digesting complex carbs.

I hope something can be done, but I haven't been able to find much information for dealing with excessive insulin production outside of diet modification. So I'll just to have to go back on my keto diet until I can see someone.

[Praetorian]

I think I just need to go see a doctor to figure out what's wrong. The only carb sources I've been using are oatmeal, cream of wheat, basmati rice, whole grain rice, whole grain pasta, but even with these I feel hypoglycemic within an hour of the meal, and intolerably hungry, tired, headaches, fatigue, shakey after 2 hours. I know next to nothing about this sort of thing, but to me it feels like my blood sugar spikes after a meal, then rockets into the ground because my pancreas goes overboard with insulin production due to years of overeating. It just really floors me that this is happening with even slow digesting complex carbs.

I hope something can be done, but I haven't been able to find much information for dealing with excessive insulin production outside of diet modification. So I'll just to have to go back on my keto diet until I can see someone.

Are you having fats with those meals? How much?
P

[Mastagon]

Here is what I was doing for a few days before the hypoglycemia became intolerable:


MEAL 1

2 whole eggs
1 cup egg whites
40g cream of wheat
1/4 cup blue berries
spoon of metamucil

MIRCO BREAKDOWN (protien/carb/fat):42/33/12

TOTAL CALORIES:408

MEAL 2

1.5 scoop whey
1 1/4 tbsp PB
40g oatmeal
1/4 cup blueberries

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:46/36/17.8

TOTAL CALORIES:488

MEAL 3

150g chicken
1/3 cup almonds
1/2 cup brown rice
1/2 cup snap peas

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:49/33/27.2

TOTAL CALORIES:613

MEAL 4

1.5 scoop whey
1 1/4 tbsp PB
40g oatmeal
1/4 cup blue berries
spoon of metamucil

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:46/36/17.8

TOTAL CALORIES:488

MEAL 5

chicken breast
1/2 cup brown rice
1/3 cup cashews

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:49/35/20ish

TOTAL CALORIES:311

MEAL 6

200g steak
2 tbsp herb dressing
340 gram bag salad
1/2 cup brown rice
1/4 cup raisins

48/35/16

TOTAL CALORIES: 478

MEAL 7

1.5 scoop whey
1 1/4 tbsp PB

MICRO BREAKDOWN: 40/9/15
TOTAL CALORIES: 277

--------


MEAL TOTALS

MIRCO Percentages 41/26/33
MICRO TOTALS 301/185/108

MICRO CALORY TOTAL: 1286/864/913

TOTAL CALORIES: 3063

--------------

So I think about 20-22 grams of fat per meal. I was wondering if it could be the shakes? Outside of that, I have no clue.

I have been training for 4 years, am about 190 at 14% bf. My training and diet have never been on the ball. I'm pretty sure my system is messed up from years of overeating carbs. I'm committed to putting out some serious effort now, so I'd love if I could fix whatever's wrong with me.

[Praetorian]

Here is what I was doing for a few days before the hypoglycemia became intolerable:


MEAL 1

2 whole eggs
1 cup egg whites
40g cream of wheat
1/4 cup blue berries
spoon of metamucil

MIRCO BREAKDOWN (protien/carb/fat):42/33/12

TOTAL CALORIES:408

MEAL 2

1.5 scoop whey
1 1/4 tbsp PB
40g oatmeal
1/4 cup blueberries

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:46/36/17.8

TOTAL CALORIES:488

MEAL 3

150g chicken
1/3 cup almonds
1/2 cup brown rice
1/2 cup snap peas

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:49/33/27.2

TOTAL CALORIES:613

MEAL 4

1.5 scoop whey
1 1/4 tbsp PB
40g oatmeal
1/4 cup blue berries
spoon of metamucil

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:46/36/17.8

TOTAL CALORIES:488

MEAL 5

chicken breast
1/2 cup brown rice
1/3 cup cashews

MIRCO BREAKDOWN:49/35/20ish

TOTAL CALORIES:311

MEAL 6

200g steak
2 tbsp herb dressing
340 gram bag salad
1/2 cup brown rice
1/4 cup raisins

48/35/16

TOTAL CALORIES: 478

MEAL 7

1.5 scoop whey
1 1/4 tbsp PB

MICRO BREAKDOWN: 40/9/15
TOTAL CALORIES: 277

--------


MEAL TOTALS

MIRCO Percentages 41/26/33
MICRO TOTALS 301/185/108

MICRO CALORY TOTAL: 1286/864/913

TOTAL CALORIES: 3063

--------------

So I think about 20-22 grams of fat per meal. I was wondering if it could be the shakes? Outside of that, I have no clue.

I have been training for 4 years, am about 190 at 14% bf. My training and diet have never been on the ball. I'm pretty sure my system is messed up from years of overeating carbs. I'm committed to putting out some serious effort now, so I'd love if I could fix whatever's wrong with me.

Meal one I'd up to 4 whole eggs plus 4 whites and cream of wheat is pretty high GI...maybe oats instead, shakes make it 1.5-2 Tbsp PB, chicken steak etc should be 200g not 150...other than that looks ok...when you do blood work you should have your fasting glucose checked.

P

[Kaly11]

Hey P,

What do you recommend for dosage of combining clen/T3? Thanks

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

What do you recommend for dosage of combining clen/T3? Thanks

Clen start at 20mcg twice daily and raise by 20mcg every two weeks until you hit 120mcg ...leave it there until finished the diet then taper down. T3 start at 25mcg daily and raise by 12.5 mcg every two weeks until you hit 75mcg daily....leave it there until finished the diet...then taper down.
P

[Kaly11]

Clen start at 20mcg twice daily and raise by 20mcg every two weeks until you hit 120mcg ...leave it there until finished the diet then taper down. T3 start at 25mcg daily and raise by 12.5 mcg every two weeks until you hit 75mcg daily....leave it there until finished the diet...then taper down.
P

thanks P

[natenator]

Hey P,

What do you recommend for dosage of combining clen/T3? Thanks
not to be a dick but you could have found this info if you searched a bit for it. He's told it numerous times in this thread (and others) and I've repeated it a few times myself.

[Descimus]

Hello Prae i would like to thank you for your time, read the whole treads and changed my view on alot of thing in my nutrition and cycling, i wanted to know if there would be any benefit to add green + to a palumbo diet i think there is like 3 g of carbs (1 is sugar) per tbsp and i would also like to know your view on acidity of the food we eat do you think it as an impact on the fat lost and health ? ( i read somewhere that candida was forming in a very acidic environment ex bloodstream and that it was feasting on your energy)
Thank you!

[btufts]

hey p, would taking clen while just trying to keep lean make a big diff? aka not on keto

[natenator]

hey p, would taking clen while just trying to keep lean make a big diff? aka not on keto
do some cardio. It's cheaper and has other benefits as well above clen.

use drugs for specific reasons/purpose.

[btufts]

do some cardio. It's cheaper and has other benefits as well above clen.

use drugs for specific reasons/purpose.

well cardio too lol, my buddy just gave me half a bottle so i figured i might be able to lose some fat while i'm at it while keeping my cals just below maintenance

[Praetorian]

Hello Prae i would like to thank you for your time, read the whole treads and changed my view on alot of thing in my nutrition and cycling, i wanted to know if there would be any benefit to add green + to a palumbo diet i think there is like 3 g of carbs (1 is sugar) per tbsp and i would also like to know your view on acidity of the food we eat do you think it as an impact on the fat lost and health ? ( i read somewhere that candida was forming in a very acidic environment ex bloodstream and that it was feasting on your energy)
Thank you!

A decent greens plus supp is very beneficial...you can start the diet with it but because of the carbs it may have to be removed later on. A pill version woudl be better than the powder as there would be much less carbs...Dave recommends Juice+. Protein makes our body acidic...gree veggies are alkalizing...thus adding green veggies to out diets is beneficial. On keto you just have to be aware of the quantity. I doubt candida is "feasting " on our energy...i dont buy that.
P

[Praetorian]

well cardio too lol, my buddy just gave me half a bottle so i figured i might be able to lose some fat while i'm at it while keeping my cals just below maintenance

Clen would not help significantly...GH would be better.
P

[Mastagon]

If you could recommend one book on nutrition -bodybuilding centered or not- what would it be?

[Memo]

If you could recommend one book on nutrition -bodybuilding centered or not- what would it be?
I have Advanced Nutrition & Human metabolism and its great by gropper smith

everything by lyle mcdonald is good

Praetorian might have some good he think we should buy...

[Praetorian]

If you could recommend one book on nutrition -bodybuilding centered or not- what would it be?

Fat Wars by Brad King...one of the very best!!
P

[Kaly11]

not to be a dick but you could have found this info if you searched a bit for it. He's told it numerous times in this thread (and others) and I've repeated it a few times myself.

I have heard of different dosages and did search for abit so therefore I straight up asked the question to get his response.

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae!

What's your thoughts on a.m. training. Like wake up, take a piss and start lifting; no food?

Thanks!

Always have some type of meal prior to training.....an empy stomach before cardio is fine...training not so good.
P

[ubcpower]

Hey Prae,
Currently doing 30mins/day of Low Intensity (130bpm) cardio, either first thing a.m. or pworkout. Starting June 1st looking to increase it. Would adding 5 mins to each day (35mins/day) be a significant amount of change to notice results or will I have to go by the mirror/scale to assess this?

[Praetorian]

Hey Prae,
Currently doing 30mins/day of Low Intensity (130bpm) cardio, either first thing a.m. or pworkout. Starting June 1st looking to increase it. Would adding 5 mins to each day (35mins/day) be a significant amount of change to notice results or will I have to go by the mirror/scale to assess this?

Up the daily sessions by 5-10 min each week...depending on how much weight you are dropping.
P

[Skyblob]

Hey prae, im competing in less than one year, what you think about gh for fatloss at 19 years old? Should I or shouldn't I. I can stick with diet and clen and other stuff, but was just wondering! Thanks bro ;)

[btufts]

Hey prae, im competing in less than one year, what you think about gh for fatloss at 19 years old? Should I or shouldn't I. I can stick with diet and clen and other stuff, but was just wondering! Thanks bro ;)

way too expensive and not going to do much for someone your/ our age.

[Praetorian]

Hey prae, im competing in less than one year, what you think about gh for fatloss at 19 years old? Should I or shouldn't I. I can stick with diet and clen and other stuff, but was just wondering! Thanks bro ;)

Not necessary!
P

[natenator]

Not necessary!
P
I bet some serious cash he'll do it anyway.

[btufts]

I bet some serious cash he'll do it anyway.

lol if he does i want to know where he's getting 700 bucks a month to blow on gh and enough test to run it properly

[natenator]

lol if he does i want to know where he's getting 700 bucks a month to blow on gh and enough test to run it properly
Kai Greene comes to mind.

[Mastagon]

Kai Greene comes to mind.

what was that about blowing? :)

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

if one is not concerned about estrogen related water retention and not prone to gyno from the stack he is using is there still any benefit from using an AI. i was told an AI will increase IGF-1 levels by lowering estrogen is this true?

i am just coasting on test enanthate and dont' get gyno from it at the dosage im taking and dont care about little water retntion should i still be taking arimidex or aromasin?

thanks.

[Praetorian]

hey p,

if one is not concerned about estrogen related water retention and not prone to gyno from the stack he is using is there still any benefit from using an AI. i was told an AI will increase IGF-1 levels by lowering estrogen is this true?

i am just coasting on test enanthate and dont' get gyno from it at the dosage im taking and dont care about little water retntion should i still be taking arimidex or aromasin?

thanks.

Taking an AI when not required during a cycle is unnecessary and will reduce overall gains. Why would you want to reduce a hormone in your body that is not higher than normal....that is taking the body out of homeostasis and will undoubtedly cause issues.
P

[Adonis13]

would you run clen on comp day P?

[Praetorian]

would you run clen on comp day P?

Yes of course you never stop anything cold turkey before a comp..youll get rebound effects. Clen, T3, GH are all use right up to the comp...aas you can take the last inject 2 days before for long esters and orals right up to the comp.
P

[Adonis13]

thanx P.

[japh]

Hey P, I was wondering if you could take the time to take a look at my thoughts on a possible muscle gain diet for myself this september.

Your thoughts on whether or not it has potential would be appreciated.

The thread is entitled "outside the box diet plan advice needed" in the mens diet and nutrition section. Thanks

[benP]

hey p, when dieting do you count calories from vegetables or a natural salsa?

[Praetorian]

hey p, when dieting do you count calories from vegetables or a natural salsa?

If you are counting calories then I would say yes...however I dont count calories.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P, I was wondering if you could take the time to take a look at my thoughts on a possible muscle gain diet for myself this september.

Your thoughts on whether or not it has potential would be appreciated.

The thread is entitled "outside the box diet plan advice needed" in the mens diet and nutrition section. Thanks

I saw it...I dont like it....that much fat will basically kill your appetite completely.
You need a structured approach based on constant and variable macros....protein is constant...fats are semi constant and carbs are variable.
P

[japh]

OK thanks P

[Dragon1911]

Hey P,

When running 2 compounds ie test and deca would you always run the base at a higher dose than the complimentary or does it matter as long as they are close.

For example would running running 500mg TestE and 600mg Deca a week on a bulk cycle be ok or should the test be bumped up even with the Deca if not higher.

Or would you play it by ear and adjust accordingly based on gains or sides.

[Vitamin S]

hey p, what u think of this routine i might try for a little while. goal to lose body fat and mantain muscle.

wake up take an ephedra free fat burner 30 mins later do low intensity cardio keep heart rate under 145bpm. right after have 30-45g of whey isolate with bcaas and hit a body part.

after weights slam another dextrose/isolate shake and go home and have a solid meal and then all other remaining meals will be solid meals consisting of protein/fats/carbs.

thx

i would normally do cardio in morning and weights in evening but i can only go once now, so i don't wanna wake up eat a meal go train and then go do cardio after i feel like i lose muscle if i hit cardio right away from weights. i'd rather do cardio burn some fat rev the metabolism and take in enough protein after so ican hit a body part. if u suggest i take something else after cardio please let me know. i just thought protin alone would be good so i don't break down my own bodys prottein for workout and wanna stay away from carbs as i wanna keep the effect of fat loss going thruout my weights.

what u think P

[Praetorian]

hey p, what u think of this routine i might try for a little while. goal to lose body fat and mantain muscle.

wake up take an ephedra free fat burner 30 mins later do low intensity cardio keep heart rate under 145bpm. right after have 30-45g of whey isolate with bcaas and hit a body part.

after weights slam another dextrose/isolate shake and go home and have a solid meal and then all other remaining meals will be solid meals consisting of protein/fats/carbs.

thx

i would normally do cardio in morning and weights in evening but i can only go once now, so i don't wanna wake up eat a meal go train and then go do cardio after i feel like i lose muscle if i hit cardio right away from weights. i'd rather do cardio burn some fat rev the metabolism and take in enough protein after so ican hit a body part. if u suggest i take something else after cardio please let me know. i just thought protin alone would be good so i don't break down my own bodys prottein for workout and wanna stay away from carbs as i wanna keep the effect of fat loss going thruout my weights.

what u think P

Never do cardio before training...if you want to maintain muscle do this...get up have a shake with a fat source...ie nuts, nut butter etc....wait 30 minutes then train...immediatley after training do cardio then have your next shake with a fat source again...3 hours later have a solid meal. Cardio after training will NOT make you lose muscle if you are eating correctly!
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

When running 2 compounds ie test and deca would you always run the base at a higher dose than the complimentary or does it matter as long as they are close.

For example would running running 500mg TestE and 600mg Deca a week on a bulk cycle be ok or should the test be bumped up even with the Deca if not higher.

Or would you play it by ear and adjust accordingly based on gains or sides.

Test as a base should always be higher...this way you avoid the sides from the anabolic compound.
P

[Vitamin S]

k p,

where does the carbs fit in then?? don't i need to replisnh glycogen stores after doing weights?

[Praetorian]

k p,

where does the carbs fit in then?? don't i need to replisnh glycogen stores after doing weights?

I thought you wanted to lose fat and maintain muscle..if so you dont need carbs.
P

[Vitamin S]

ok gotcha,

also i wanna know if hot water will destroy or make the protein powder go rancid. i have a recipe for protein puddding involving protein powder of ur choice, hot water and natty peanut butter. u mix it all togethor and get a nice pudding.

thx

[Praetorian]

ok gotcha,

also i wanna know if hot water will destroy or make the protein powder go rancid. i have a recipe for protein puddding involving protein powder of ur choice, hot water and natty peanut butter. u mix it all togethor and get a nice pudding.

thx

No
P

[Andre Gregoire]

Praetorian, I saw that you recently posted your opinion on Ephedrine and that you don't recommend it because of its negative affect on the adrenals, cortisol, blood pressure, heart rate, etc...

I assume that most of those problems are due to the fact that it's a non-selective beta agonist that binds poorly to adrenoreceptors and stimulates the beta-1 receptors in the heart. I guess for enhanced guys they can get around some of these problems by using clen which is a beta-2 agonist as oposed to non-selective.

What about naturals what do you recommend for them as far as fat loss supplements?

What do you think of caffeine, green tea, yohimbine?

Thanks,

Andre

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, I saw that you recently posted your opinion on Ephedrine and that you don't recommend it because of its negative affect on the adrenals, cortisol, blood pressure, heart rate, etc...

I assume that most of those problems are due to the fact that it's a non-selective beta agonist that binds poorly to adrenoreceptors and stimulates the beta-1 receptors in the heart. I guess for enhanced guys they can get around some of these problems by using clen which is a beta-2 agonist as oposed to non-selective.

What about naturals what do you recommend for them as far as fat loss supplements?

What do you think of caffeine, green tea, yohimbine?

Thanks,

Andre

Andre you are correct, ephedrine is a non specific beta agonist whereas clen is a specific beta 2 agonist. This makes clen much more potent at fat burning and results in much less side effects. For natural athletes (not sure they are natural if they are using ephedrine or caffeine as both are drugs not supplements) anyway...caffeine works very well...200mg prior to training or cardio will increase fat loss dramatically...green tea...its ok nothing fantastic...yohimbe is usually too harsh on most people...Lipolyze and Somalyze by Species are both non stimulant fat burners and work very well.
P

[Andre Gregoire]

Andre you are correct, ephedrine is a non specific beta agonist whereas clen is a specific beta 2 agonist. This makes clen much more potent at fat burning and results in much less side effects. For natural athletes (not sure they are natural if they are using ephedrine or caffeine as both are drugs not supplements) anyway...caffeine works very well...200mg prior to training or cardio will increase fat loss dramatically...green tea...its ok nothing fantastic...yohimbe is usually too harsh on most people...Lipolyze and Somalyze by Species are both non stimulant fat burners by Species and work very well.
P

Thanks for your quick and thorough reply P!

Those Species products contain usnic acid that at high dosages (350mg+/day) are associated with Hepatoxicity. I know Palumbo only recommends taking 36mg per day so I am left wondering if at such a small dose it is effective and/or hepatoxic.

Thanks for the heads up I will check supplement reviews and decide if I will buy it.

[nii]

Do you think it would be irresponsible for someone to go on HRT (125mg test) if say in five years they wanted to have children. From all that I've read, it seems that men who've been on HRT for long periods of time can start producing test with a very vigorous prescribed 'PCT'. Im not sure if they returned to normal production permanently, or just temporarily during the prescribed 'PCT'. Or is this very dependent on the individual, and kind of hit/miss.

The safest route is obviously just waiting til after you've had children. But was just curious about this.

[Praetorian]

Do you think it would be irresponsible for someone to go on HRT (125mg test) if say in five years they wanted to have children. From all that I've read, it seems that men who've been on HRT for long periods of time can start producing test with a very vigorous prescribed 'PCT'. Im not sure if they returned to normal production permanently, or just temporarily during the prescribed 'PCT'. Or is this very dependent on the individual, and kind of hit/miss.

The safest route is obviously just waiting til after you've had children. But was just curious about this.

You have already answered your own question. The best route is to wait until after you have children...patience is a virtue.
P

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

i have this problem on and off for 4 years, gets worse when i train more intense. the problem is in my right shoulder/pec region like where they meet. it burns out so badly like if i do shoulder press first then i have a hard time doing laterals or front raises, esp front raises it kills and i have to sop my workout. i am not sure if its a not doesn't seem to be it is tender then left region after workout though. it actually doesn't matter what order i do my exercises in actually eventually it burns out mid way.

im going to go to see my chiro tomorrow who also does art and trigger therapy any thing i should suggest to him? i really want this fixed asap it bothersome and i cant complete my movements etc.

pleae see my album under profile to see what i mean i put a pic of ronnie coleman circling in black where the pain is. thx

[Praetorian]

Thanks for your quick and thorough reply P!

Those Species products contain usnic acid that at high dosages (350mg+/day) are associated with Hepatoxicity. I know Palumbo only recommends taking 36mg per day so I am left wondering if at such a small dose it is effective and/or hepatoxic.

Thanks for the heads up I will check supplement reviews and decide if I will buy it.

Theyare very effective...everyone who searches the internet finds the issuethat happended with lipokinetix by Syntrax. The product contained 150mg usnic acid per capsule....way over dosed. Lipolyze and Somalyze caontain 11mg per capsule and you never go over 5 caps per day. Thus you would never see adverse reactions and it is perfectly safe. Put it this way...you dont see people getting all bent out of shape because someone took half a bottle of asprin and burnt a hole through their stomach lining...most semi intelligent people take 2 aspirins for a headache and call it a day. Its called media fear mongering and ignorance on the part of the consumer.
P

[Andre Gregoire]

Theyare very effective...everyone who searches the internet finds the issuethat happended with lipokinetix by Syntrax. The product contained 150mg usnic acid per capsule....way over dosed. Lipolyze and Somalyze caontain 11mg per capsule and you never go over 5 caps per day. Thus you would never see adverse reactions and it is perfectly safe. Put it this way...you dont see people getting all bent out of shape because someone took half a bottle of asprin and burnt a hole through their stomach lining...most semi intelligent people take 2 aspirins for a headache and call it a day. Its called media fear mongering and ignorance on the part of the consumer.
P

I know, I know... I think I may give them a try. For the record I used the Lipok about 6-7 yrs ago and it was the most effective fat burner that I had ever used.

[Praetorian]

hey p,

i have this problem on and off for 4 years, gets worse when i train more intense. the problem is in my right shoulder/pec region like where they meet. it burns out so badly like if i do shoulder press first then i have a hard time doing laterals or front raises, esp front raises it kills and i have to sop my workout. i am not sure if its a not doesn't seem to be it is tender then left region after workout though. it actually doesn't matter what order i do my exercises in actually eventually it burns out mid way.

im going to go to see my chiro tomorrow who also does art and trigger therapy any thing i should suggest to him? i really want this fixed asap it bothersome and i cant complete my movements etc.

pleae see my album under profile to see what i mean i put a pic of ronnie coleman circling in black where the pain is. thx

An ART specialist would be a good start...also a correct diagnosis would help in targeting the ART.
P

[69challenger]

........

[fathead]

Theyare very effective...everyone who searches the internet finds the issuethat happended with lipokinetix by Syntrax. The product contained 150mg usnic acid per capsule....way over dosed. Lipolyze and Somalyze caontain 11mg per capsule and you never go over 5 caps per day. Thus you would never see adverse reactions and it is perfectly safe. Put it this way...you dont see people getting all bent out of shape because someone took half a bottle of asprin and burnt a hole through their stomach lining...most semi intelligent people take 2 aspirins for a headache and call it a day. Its called media fear mongering and ignorance on the part of the consumer.
P

praetorian are these 2 species products used together? or you use one or the other? could you explain? thanks

[Praetorian]

praetorian are these 2 species products used together? or you use one or the other? could you explain? thanks

Lipolyze is used during the day ...taken with meals. Somalyze is taken before bed and along with burning fat while you sleep it deepens and extends your sleep as well.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Hello Praetorian! I just finished reading the entire thread and I must say, you are very well educated! Everyone appreciates all that you've done so far!

I do have a question, I have a friend that thinks that keto diets aren't as efficient as assessing one's insulin/carb sensitivity and using a carb amount that bests suits them. What can you say to rebut this?

[Praetorian]

Hello Praetorian! I just finished reading the entire thread and I must say, you are very well educated! Everyone appreciates all that you've done so far!

I do have a question, I have a friend that thinks that keto diets aren't as efficient as assessing one's insulin/carb sensitivity and using a carb amount that bests suits them. What can you say to rebut this?

Im glad its been informative for you. Keto diets are so efficient at improving insulin sensitivity that they have been used very successfully for many decades at controlling type 2 diabetes to the point that patients no longer require medication. Show me any carb diet that does this better. Furthermore ask your friend how he will quantify what constitutes a "best" amount that"suits" them. Sounds like very little quatitative specifics and alot of hokey pokey.
P

[FitnessModel45]

LOL I asked him today what you told me and he had nothing much to say!

Praetorian I have another question to ask you. I've been following the diet and training advice of a close friend of mine for about 10 weeks now.

I began at 11% bodyfat: 3027 calories (317g of Pro, 238g of Carb, 79g of Fat)
And am currently sitting at 9% bodyfat: 2414 cal (287g of Pro, 134g of Carb, 75g of Fat)

Mon: Shoulders+Triceps, then 40mins of walking cardio
Tues: Back+Biceps
Wed: HIIT cardio
Thurs: Legs
Fri: HIIT cardio
Sat: Chest+Abs, then HIIT cardio
Sun: OFF DAY

My original goal was to be contest ready by July 1st but it doesn't look like that is going to happen, so now I am aiming for Aug 1st. Do you think I should switch to a keto diet from now till Aug 1st? Or do you think I should stick with what I am doing? Thank you in advance!

[Praetorian]

LOL I asked him today what you told me and he had nothing much to say!

Praetorian I have another question to ask you. I've been following the diet and training advice of a close friend of mine for about 10 weeks now.

I began at 11% bodyfat: 3027 calories (317g of Pro, 238g of Carb, 79g of Fat)
And am currently sitting at 9% bodyfat: 2414 cal (287g of Pro, 134g of Carb, 75g of Fat)

Mon: Shoulders+Triceps, then 40mins of walking cardio
Tues: Back+Biceps
Wed: HIIT cardio
Thurs: Legs
Fri: HIIT cardio
Sat: Chest+Abs, then HIIT cardio
Sun: OFF DAY

My original goal was to be contest ready by July 1st but it doesn't look like that is going to happen, so now I am aiming for Aug 1st. Do you think I should switch to a keto diet from now till Aug 1st? Or do you think I should stick with what I am doing? Thank you in advance!

Well it doesnt appear that what you are doing is working all too well...if it were you would have been ready July 1. You may want to try keto...the Palumbo diet for a 200lb males is available all over the boards. You also need to up cardio to every day and increase it in duration every week or two so your body doesnt apapt...if you decide to do keto no HIIT cardio..just a fast walk is fine. I would also suggest 5 days per week in the gym...one muscle group per day plus abs or calves...your energy stores will be low so trainig two groups is very difficult as well the moe times in the gym equals more calories burned.
P

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

i always boil my red potoates, but in case we need to microwave them , i heard that will change the glycemic index of it, is this true? if so is it still acceptable.

and how long is the max anabolic window for post workout nutrition is it 30 mins or so to consume the dextrose/protein shake ? (assuming no insulin is being used)

thx

[Praetorian]

hey p,

i always boil my red potoates, but in case we need to microwave them , i heard that will change the glycemic index of it, is this true? if so is it still acceptable.

and how long is the max anabolic window for post workout nutrition is it 30 mins or so to consume the dextrose/protein shake ? (assuming no insulin is being used)

thx

There is no significant change,,,either cooking method is fine. 30 minutes is fine..you have at least an hour.
P

[Aaron_37]

I have a fairly unusual question, P:

What are the 1/3/5/10 things you wished you knew about diet and training at age 20 that you know now? Gimme as many as you feel like, it's all good.

[Praetorian]

I have a fairly unusual question, P:

What are the 1/3/5/10 things you wished you knew about diet and training at age 20 that you know now? Gimme as many as you feel like, it's all good.

A few things I wish i knew when i was younger....

You dont need carbs when dieting
You wont lose muscle by eliminating carbs
You wont lose muscle by doing 1-2 hrs cardio...everyday
Eat every three hours, on or off season
6 balanced meals is enough while dieting
Counting calories is unnecessary
Dont train past failure very often
4-5 days per week training is enough
Training should be HIT limited to 1.5 hrs max
Take at least 1 week off training every 4 months
Stay away from ECA
Diet, training and recovery mean much more than any aas cycle ever will
Go by the mirror not by the scale
BF % means nothing
Get regular chiro tune-ups every 6 weeks to avoid injuries
Get regular blood work done every few months
Keep an open mind, listen to those who have been there
Be prepared to read......ALOT!
Periodize your training...dont train heavy all the time, deloading is necessary
P

PS oh yeah..forgot this one...if you are still not dry and shredded a few weeks out...you ARENT holding water...you are FAT!

[ubcpower]

Great advice above P.

[Aaron_37]

Fantastic... without sounding like too much of a fanboy/groupie, I'm printing that out and putting it on my wall. Thanks so much!

[FitnessModel45]

Thanks Praetorian, I'm going to take your advice and switch to a keto diet this Sunday. I've tailored the diet to suit me (158 lbs, 9% bf) and this is what it looks like:
meal 1: 3 whole eggs
meal 2: 2 scoops of whey protein + 1 tbsp of natty pb
meal 3: 5 oz of chicken breast + 15 raw almonds
meal 4: 1.5 scoops of whey protein + 1 tbsp of natty pb
meal 5: 5 oz of salmon + 3.2 oz of broccoli
meal 6: 1.5 scoops of whey protein + 1 tbsp of natty pb

It works out to: 1660 calories -> 213g of Protein, 30.5g of Carbs, 74.7g of Fats

Does that sound about right?

Also, I will take your advice on doing a 5 day split, how does this sound?
Mon: Chest
Tues: Back
Wed: OFF
Thurs: Legs
Fri: Shoulders
Sat: Arms
Sun: OFF

[Andre Gregoire]

A few things I wish i knew when i was younger....

You dont need carbs when dieting
You wont lose muscle by eliminating carbs
You wont lose muscle by doing 1-2 hrs cardio...everyday
Eat every three hours, on or off season
6 balanced meals is enough while dieting
Counting calories is unnecessary
Dont train past failure very often
4-5 days per week training is enough
Training should be HIT limited to 1.5 hrs max
Take at least 1 week off training every 4 months
Stay away from ECA
Diet, training and recovery mean much more than any aas cycle ever will
Go by the mirror not by the scale
BF % means nothing
Get regular chiro tune-ups every 6 weeks to avoid injuries
Get regular blood work done every few months
Keep an open mind, listen to those who have been there
Be prepared to read......ALOT!
Periodize your training...dont train heavy all the time, deloading is necessary
P

PS oh yeah..forgot this one...if you are still not dry and shredded a few weeks out...you ARENT holding water...you are FAT!

Great tips, I also saved this one.

Do you think a natural BB can get away with doing 2hrs of low intensity cardio per day?

Thanks!

[Ritch]

Great tips, I also saved this one.

Do you think a natural BB can get away with doing 2hrs of low intensity cardio per day?

Thanks!

2 hours of cardio natural will have you looking like a toothpick.

[natenator]

2 hours of cardio natural will have you looking like a toothpick.
why don't you let the guy who ACTUALLY knows where he's talking about answer this question.

Not saying you are right or wrong but suffice to say I'm willing to bet you've not dieted down as many competitors as P has therefore he's probably most qualified to answer this specific question?

[Ritch]

Point taken, it was however a partly humerous/real answer.

[natenator]

Point taken, it was however a partly humerous/real answer.
As a natty, perhaps that is true. I wouldn't know.

But I do know P had me doing upwards of 2.5 hrs/day last summer and I most definitely was not turning into a stick.

[bossman_1986]

should i supplement with omega-3 fish oil while on the keto diet?? what about during bulking when im eating a variety of foods??

how many grams of omega-3's should you be getting a day?

[steve_d]

2 hours of cardio natural will have you looking like a toothpick.

I've done countless shows natural, and only 1 of them I looked like a toothpick...A very ripped toothpick. But it wasn't because of 2 hours a day of cardio. It was because of 6 weeks too much dieting.

Then you can go back further to when I was a competitive cyclist / swimmer. I did WAY more than 2 hours cardio per day. And this wasn't your 2 hour low intensity treadmill cardio. I am talking heart rate at 180+ for 3 hours straight. Never would anyone have considered me a toothpick.

[Ritch]

A swimmer or cyclist who dosen`t look like a toothpick? That`s a rarety. But all the power to you if it works out in your favor!

I really could get into this discussion, but it`s Prae`s thread...

[Praetorian]

Great tips, I also saved this one.

Do you think a natural BB can get away with doing 2hrs of low intensity cardio per day?

Thanks!

Yes without an issue!
P

[Praetorian]

should i supplement with omega-3 fish oil while on the keto diet?? what about during bulking when im eating a variety of foods??

how many grams of omega-3's should you be getting a day?

Yes, 2000g twice daily both dieting and off season.
P

[Praetorian]

Thanks Praetorian, I'm going to take your advice and switch to a keto diet this Sunday. I've tailored the diet to suit me (158 lbs, 9% bf) and this is what it looks like:
meal 1: 3 whole eggs +6 whites
meal 2: 1.5 scoops of whey protein + 1 tbsp of natty pb
meal 3: 6.5 oz of chicken breast + 1/3 cup
meal 4: 1.5 scoops of whey protein + 1 tbsp of natty pb
meal 5: 6.5 oz of salmon + 3.2 oz of broccoli + 1 Tbsp olive oil
meal 6: 1.5 scoops of whey protein + 1 tbsp of natty pb

It works out to: 1660 calories -> 213g of Protein, 30.5g of Carbs, 74.7g of Fats

Does that sound about right?

Also, I will take your advice on doing a 5 day split, how does this sound?
Mon: Chest
Tues: Back
Wed: OFF
Thurs: Legs
Fri: Shoulders
Sat: Arms
Sun: OFF

I revised the diet above slightly...training looks good.
P

[Praetorian]

I've done countless shows natural, and only 1 of them I looked like a toothpick...A very ripped toothpick. But it wasn't because of 2 hours a day of cardio. It was because of 6 weeks too much dieting.

Then you can go back further to when I was a competitive cyclist / swimmer. I did WAY more than 2 hours cardio per day. And this wasn't your 2 hour low intensity treadmill cardio. I am talking heart rate at 180+ for 3 hours straight. Never would anyone have considered me a toothpick.

99% of the people who have an excuse for why they cant,wont, shouldnt etc do cardio come into a show fat. Most people fear cardio for losing muscle etc...that fear keeps them smooth and prevents them from ever coming in shape. Its also an ego thing....most guys dont want to see what the scale says when they are actually lean because 200lbs drops to 155 pretty damn quickly.
P

[FitnessModel45]

I cannot thank you enough Praetorian! I suppose this is a weird question to ask, but I'm always eager to learn, why did you choose to increase the fat and protein intake?

[Dragon1911]

Hey P,

Just curious as to how long it takes for a 1ml total 1/2cc each of TestE and Deca to dispurse into the muscle?

I am pinning EOD using 4 sites and was wondering if there would be any issues with oil pooling with 8 days between shots and the longer esters?

[natenator]

A swimmer or cyclist who dosen`t look like a toothpick? That`s a rarety. But all the power to you if it works out in your favor!

I really could get into this discussion, but it`s Prae`s thread...
Start the thread Ritch! We need some new discussion around here...

[Praetorian]

I cannot thank you enough Praetorian! I suppose this is a weird question to ask, but I'm always eager to learn, why did you choose to increase the fat and protein intake?

Because you had amounts that would be decent for a female not a male...adequate protein and fat = no muscle loss.
P

[Praetorian]

Hey P,

Just curious as to how long it takes for a 1ml total 1/2cc each of TestE and Deca to dispurse into the muscle?

I am pinning EOD using 4 sites and was wondering if there would be any issues with oil pooling with 8 days between shots and the longer esters?

One shot every 8 days you should be fine...however there are many sites to use so really that shouldnt be an issue at all.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Ah I see! Thank you! I hate to rag on the topic but how did you determine that? When I calculated it originally I used the 1.5g protein/lb of lean bodyweight, and 0.5g fat/lb of bodyweight. From what I can see you used 1.7 for protein, and 0.7 for fat instead.

[Praetorian]

Ah I see! Thank you! I hate to rag on the topic but how did you determine that? When I calculated it originally I used the 1.5g protein/lb of lean bodyweight, and 0.5g fat/lb of bodyweight. From what I can see you used 1.7 for protein, and 0.7 for fat instead.

I didnt calculate it...as I said I dont count calories I just use the diet that works for my clients...so i pulled it from there.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Oh I see! So what you're saying is that the diet is standard, and would work for anyone no matter what their starting weight is? Thank you again.

[Praetorian]

Oh I see! So what you're saying is that the diet is standard, and would work for anyone no matter what their starting weight is? Thank you again.

Not standard but it is dependant on lean mass...so for someone at your level that is what is necessary...for someone who carries more lean mass it would be different.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Thanks bro! I have another 2 questions for you.
1. Are you going to Ontario Bodybuilding Championships in London, Ontario this Saturday?
2. I read earlier in this thread that you advocate using clen+t3 during contest prep. Won't using clen risk heart cell damage? It's shown in the study with the rats that high dosages cause heart cell damage but there aren't any studies done using lower dosages; thus isn't it a 'gray area' in terms of whether it's damaging or not?

[Praetorian]

Thanks bro! I have another 2 questions for you.
1. Are you going to Ontario Bodybuilding Championships in London, Ontario this Saturday?
2. I read earlier in this thread that you advocate using clen+t3 during contest prep. Won't using clen risk heart cell damage? It's shown in the study with the rats that high dosages cause heart cell damage but there aren't any studies done using lower dosages; thus isn't it a 'gray area' in terms of whether it's damaging or not?

No I wont be going to the Ontarios...most of my competitive clients at the moment are doing the Nationals or Pro shows. Clen and T3 work very well on a precontest diet. I dont advocate any type of drug use I leave that totally up to the client...but if they decide to use stuff I will provide the safest direction possible and obviously inform them of the potential risks. Used correctly and in the proper dosages clen and T3 are safe...abused both can cause issues. If you extrapolate the dosage used on rats in the sudy and apply it to humans you would be shocked...of course that would cause issues.
P

[6pack]

A few things I wish i knew when i was younger....

You dont need carbs when dieting
You wont lose muscle by eliminating carbs
You wont lose muscle by doing 1-2 hrs cardio...everyday
Eat every three hours, on or off season
6 balanced meals is enough while dieting
Counting calories is unnecessary
Dont train past failure very often
4-5 days per week training is enough
Training should be HIT limited to 1.5 hrs max
Take at least 1 week off training every 4 months
Stay away from ECA
Diet, training and recovery mean much more than any aas cycle ever will
Go by the mirror not by the scale
BF % means nothing
Get regular chiro tune-ups every 6 weeks to avoid injuries
Get regular blood work done every few months
Keep an open mind, listen to those who have been there
Be prepared to read......ALOT!
Periodize your training...dont train heavy all the time, deloading is necessary
P

PS oh yeah..forgot this one...if you are still not dry and shredded a few weeks out...you ARENT holding water...you are FAT!

Wow Praetorian... Thanks, these tips are awesome... I have been working out less than a year and am really confused with the rep range for periodizing... I do 4 weeks of 10 reps, 4 weeks of 8 reps and 4 weeks of 6 reps... Then I take a week off and repeat the cycle again for 12 weeks... Is this good or should I do 8/6/4... My goal is to gain lean muscle without adding bulk... What do you recommend for Novice bodybuilders?

[FitnessModel45]

That makes a lot of sense P! Thanks! I was just reading an article by Dave Palumbo and he was saying that during a keto diet you should keep your heart rate at less than 120bpm when doing cardio because if you go higher than 120 then you run the risk of your body wanting to use carbs (which they will get by breaking down amino acids); but earlier in this thread I noticed you suggested a heart rate of 120-130bpm; what do you think?

Also, he stated that when doing the cardio, don't worry about using an incline. Do you agree with this? If so, what speed would you recommend?

[Vitamin S]

p,,

what is the best excercise or exercises sets and reps for tarrgeting the upper inner pecs, like cleavage area where the two upper pecs meet. i have put on some size but not sure if i doing all that i can or should be. i have a broader chest so its hard to fill out esp the upper inner pecs.

and when would u double up on certain body parts like under what conditions is it okay to do so, most say off season, what about while dieting ??

thx

[Praetorian]

That makes a lot of sense P! Thanks! I was just reading an article by Dave Palumbo and he was saying that during a keto diet you should keep your heart rate at less than 120bpm when doing cardio because if you go higher than 120 then you run the risk of your body wanting to use carbs (which they will get by breaking down amino acids); but earlier in this thread I noticed you suggested a heart rate of 120-130bpm; what do you think?

Also, he stated that when doing the cardio, don't worry about using an incline. Do you agree with this? If so, what speed would you recommend?

An incline isnt necessary...12-130 bps is fine...Dave has stated that this range is fine.
P

[Praetorian]

p,,

what is the best excercise or exercises sets and reps for tarrgeting the upper inner pecs, like cleavage area where the two upper pecs meet. i have put on some size but not sure if i doing all that i can or should be. i have a broader chest so its hard to fill out esp the upper inner pecs.

and when would u double up on certain body parts like under what conditions is it okay to do so, most say off season, what about while dieting ??

thx

You cannot specifically targetthe upper inner pecs...you must increase the overall size of the muscle thus increasing the upper pec region. Bench press, inlcines, dumbbells etc will all work. You dont build muscle while dieting....so there is no reason to double up on muscle groups that would only make recovery much more difficult...you would have to do it offseason.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Praetorian I was doing cardio earlier today at the gym and I couldn't seem to find a treadmill that gave me a correct heart rate reading. I was walking at a speed of 3.5mph with an incline of zero. One treadmill said that my heart rate was 84 bpm, and another treadmill said it was 125 bpm. Is there a way to determine my heart rate accurately? Is a speed of 3.5 mph sufficient or is it too fast?

[natenator]

Praetorian I was doing cardio earlier today at the gym and I couldn't seem to find a treadmill that gave me a correct heart rate reading. I was walking at a speed of 3.5mph with an incline of zero. One treadmill said that my heart rate was 84 bpm, and another treadmill said it was 125 bpm. Is there a way to determine my heart rate accurately? Is a speed of 3.5 mph sufficient or is it too fast?
no cardio machine will give a correct heart rate reading.

use an HRT monitor that you wear.

[z83]

Praetorian I was doing cardio earlier today at the gym and I couldn't seem to find a treadmill that gave me a correct heart rate reading. I was walking at a speed of 3.5mph with an incline of zero. One treadmill said that my heart rate was 84 bpm, and another treadmill said it was 125 bpm. Is there a way to determine my heart rate accurately? Is a speed of 3.5 mph sufficient or is it too fast?

POLAR watch

[Praetorian]

Praetorian I was doing cardio earlier today at the gym and I couldn't seem to find a treadmill that gave me a correct heart rate reading. I was walking at a speed of 3.5mph with an incline of zero. One treadmill said that my heart rate was 84 bpm, and another treadmill said it was 125 bpm. Is there a way to determine my heart rate accurately? Is a speed of 3.5 mph sufficient or is it too fast?

3.5mph is most likely fast enough and im sure the 125bpm is more accurate. If you really want to know take your pulse in 15 sec increments and times by 4.
at the moment I am using the treadmill at 2.7mph and my heart rate is 125bpm...but im sitting at 260lbs approx.
P

[JonnyO]

Jeez on the treadmill I need to put it on an incline of at least 7 and set it at well over 3mph to even get close to 120bpm and thats after 20 minutes I might reach that, according to the machines monitor anyways...Ill try that advice of taking pulse in 15 sec increments and x by 4...thanks!

[fathead]

according to those machines my heart rate is like 160 and im burning 1200 calories/hour in a low intensity session on a life fitness elliptical. i dont trust those things at all particularly cause the rolling death stair gauntlet (rotating stepper) which i find way more challenging says my output is about half that.

i also have never been able to use a heart rate monitor. they throw off crazy #'s on every model ive tried... i have to just take my pulse and guestimate

[Vitamin S]

hey p,

when doing front double bicep pose what exercises can be done to really get a bigger drop in the tricep area. like that part that drops during that pose. mines flat, what kind of sets and reps would u say to mass up?

thx

[Doryphorus]

Wow, great thread P! I just finished reading it, and had a question I didn't see answered along the way:

Have you noticed in yourself, or had your clients mention any mental side-effects of being on a keto diet? I've been told time and again by my professors that in spite of the brain enzymes that should in theory be able to deal with non-glucose energy sources, glucose is still the sole metabolic fuel for the brain (although they never mention how MUCH glucose is needed). I've also had a few friends who tried a keto diet and complained that they were having trouble concentrating and retaining new knowledge, but this was within the first week or two and they didn't stick it out.
I ask because I'm a student who doesn't compete, and have always shyed away from going keto for the reasons outlined above (my studies have to take top priority for the time being).

Thanks P!

[z83]

Hi P,

I've been on clen + T3 for 12 weeks now. Is that a problem if I keep T3 an other 6 weeks (50mcg)? Clen is great but the cramps/shake are almost problematic. Harmstring cramps mostly... or I can't contract a muscle without cramping.

Any benefit adding Anavar for the final 6-7 weeks of a keto diet ?

Thanks !

[natenator]

Z83: get some taurine for the cramps or increase sodium but if they are from clen alone then taurine should correct the problem

[z83]

Z83: get some taurine for the cramps or increase sodium but if they are from clen alone then taurine should correct the problem

sodium and water are high but haven't tried the taurine
the chiro told me magnesium

harmstring cramps...they last like 4-5 minutes and i'd like to have the leg removed during this time

[Praetorian]

hey p,

when doing front double bicep pose what exercises can be done to really get a bigger drop in the tricep area. like that part that drops during that pose. mines flat, what kind of sets and reps would u say to mass up?

thx

Close grip bench presses or dips with added weight. Three sets, 5-6, 7-8, 8-10 reps...not including warm ups.
P

[fathead]

Close grip bench presses or dips with added weight. Three sets, 5-6, 7-8, 8-10 reps...not including warm ups.
P

do you normally recommend the heaviest sets first followed by the lighter sets? for all exercises?

i have always gone progressively heavier each set with reps coming lower. i recently tried the opposite approach (as outlined above) and found it much less taxing... which is maybe a good thing?

[Praetorian]

Wow, great thread P! I just finished reading it, and had a question I didn't see answered along the way:

Have you noticed in yourself, or had your clients mention any mental side-effects of being on a keto diet? I've been told time and again by my professors that in spite of the brain enzymes that should in theory be able to deal with non-glucose energy sources, glucose is still the sole metabolic fuel for the brain (although they never mention how MUCH glucose is needed). I've also had a few friends who tried a keto diet and complained that they were having trouble concentrating and retaining new knowledge, but this was within the first week or two and they didn't stick it out.
I ask because I'm a student who doesn't compete, and have always shyed away from going keto for the reasons outlined above (my studies have to take top priority for the time being).

Thanks P!

Mental clarity for myself and my clients while in ketosis seems to be quite improved compared to off season eating. I know for myself my thinking is much much better and my study habits improve while in ketosis. A question you may want to pose to your professors is if glucose is the still the primary fuel source for the brain even when in ketosis where is it coming from? If we have reduced our carbohydrate inake drastically enough to shift the body into ketosis then the only way the brain could get glucose is through gluconeogenesis. However with the shift into ketosis the concentration of ketone bodies in the blood overcomes that of glucose and thus the brain and other tissues start to use the more readily available fuel source. As well with another readily available fuel source gluconegenesis is drastically reduced because glucose is no longer the primary fuel. See below an exerpt from the Keto Bible by Lyle Macdonald.

Most tissues of the body can use FFA for fuel if it is available. This includes skeletal muscle, the heart, and most organs. However, there are other tissues such as the brain, red blood cells, the renal medulla, bone marrow and Type II muscle fibers which cannot use FFA and require glucose (2).
The fact that the brain is incapable of using FFA for fuel has led to one of the biggest misconceptions about human physiology: that the brain can only use glucose for fuel. While it is true that the brain normally runs on glucose, the brain will readily use ketones for fuel if they are available (4-6).
Arguably the most important tissue in terms of ketone utilization is the brain which can derive up to 75% of its total energy requirements from ketones after adaptation (4-6). In all likelihood, ketones exist primarily to provide a fat-derived fuel for the brain during periods when carbohydrates are unavailable (2,7). As with glucose and FFA, the utilization of ketones is related to their availability (7). Under normal dietary conditions, ketone concentrations are so low that ketones provide a negligible amount of energy to the tissues of the body (5,8). If ketone concentrations increase, most tissues in the body will begin to derive some portion of their energy equirements from ketones (9). Some research also suggests that ketones are the preferred fuel of many tissues (9).One exception is the liver which does not use ketones for fuel, relying instead on FFA (7,10,11).By the third day of ketosis, all of the non-protein fuel is derived from the oxidation of FFA
and ketones (12,13). As ketosis develops, most tissues which can use ketones for fuel will stop using them to a significant degree by the third week (7,9). This decrease in ketone utilization occurs due to a down regulation of the enzymes responsible for ketone use and occurs in all tissues except the brain (7). After three weeks, most tissues will meet their energy requirements
almost exclusively through the breakdown of FFA (9). This is thought to be an adaptation to ensure adequate ketone levels for the brain.

P

[Praetorian]

sodium and water are high but haven't tried the taurine
the chiro told me magnesium

harmstring cramps...they last like 4-5 minutes and i'd like to have the leg removed during this time

Nate is correct clen leaches taurine from the body..magnesium does relax the muscles and most people are magnesium deficient to begin with. However if Taurine levels are still low this will not prevent cramping. Start with the Taurine and see how it goes.
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[ubcpower]

do you normally recommend the heaviest sets first followed by the lighter sets? for all exercises?

i have always gone progressively heavier each set with reps coming lower. i recently tried the opposite approach (as outlined above) and found it much less taxing... which is maybe a good thing?

bump, and do you advise only going to failure on the first heaviest set (ie. the 5-6 rep set)

[Praetorian]

bump, and do you advise only going to failure on the first heaviest set (ie. the 5-6 rep set)

The heaviest set is the set that makes the most difference ie the most important set...therefore logic dictates it should be first when you are fully warmed up and yet have the most strength and energy. I usually train to failure on all two or three sets depending how many I do.
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[japh]

I've been doing my heaviest sets first for a long time now.

I start from a single which is 90% max and move down from there.

Learning how to warm-up properly when lifting like this is imperative. My warm-up takes approximately 15-20 minutes on bench press and squat.

I only do the single on my first set of my first exercise prepping the nervous system for my first working set.

It always pains me when guys wonder why they are not getting stronger and are following a pyramiding template.

l

[Mastagon]

I've been doing my heaviest sets first for a long time now.

I start from a single which is 90% max and move down from there.

Learning how to warm-up properly when lifting like this is imperative. My warm-up takes approximately 15-20 minutes on bench press and squat.

I only do the single on my first set of my first exercise prepping the nervous system for my first working set.

It always pains me when guys wonder why they are not getting stronger and are following a pyramiding template.

l

I've been doing this 5-6 reps, 7-8 reps, 9-10 reps scheme for 2 months now, and its worked great for me. I usually warm up about 20 min, with three different exercises. My warm ups use the reverse of this scheme (not sure if this is Prae's suggestion, or something I dreamed up myself). Aka, I start with 10 reps, then 8, then 5, increasing the weight as I go up, till I hit 5 reps at about 75-85% of my heaviest 5 rep max. Then I go into the 3-4 sets of 5-6, 7-8, 9-10. I've been getting great, consistent strength gains from this. It makes for a quick, but effective and streamlined training.

[Praetorian]

I've been doing this 5-6 reps, 7-8 reps, 9-10 reps scheme for 2 months now, and its worked great for me. I usually warm up about 20 min, with three different exercises. My warm ups use the reverse of this scheme (not sure if this is Prae's suggestion, or something I dreamed up myself). Aka, I start with 10 reps, then 8, then 5, increasing the weight as I go up, till I hit 5 reps at about 75-85% of my heaviest 5 rep max. Then I go into the 3-4 sets of 5-6, 7-8, 9-10. I've been getting great, consistent strength gains from this. It makes for a quick, but effective and streamlined training.

Thats basically it...the warmup is a pyramid in weights and lowering reps but you dont go to failure and you dont tire yourself out...its just there to prepare the body and mind for the heavy weight to come. Because the focus is BB and not powerliting the rep range starts around 5-6...singles and triples focus primarily on building strength...not hypertrophy. Its ok as a BB to test yourself now and then but not too frequently.
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