Just putting this out there.

[Timbo89]

Natural bodybuilders who use Legal test boosters such as Zeus, Tribex, T-bol, Cryotest, Testostoro Grow, and all the other million and one of them that I can't think of at the moment, how do you consider this natural when youre seeking to do something that you hope will have the same effect as steroids, how can you justify that?

[MMASTAR]

They only use natural ingridients, not chemicaly engineered ones, pretty big diffrence. They are mostly to free up or help the testosterone you already have, not add more.

[O-Train]

I've taken Tribulus before. Although I consider amino acids and/or zinc to be more anabolic. When it comes to the prohormones/hormone anologs I think of them very much the same as I do regular steroid/peptide hormones. In my opinion if someone wants to go the hormone route they may as well do it right. Just like the Windsor System Saver Pellets commercial "You gotta get the good one" lol...someone will understand hopefully.

Natural "test boosters" don't do a whole lot. If they do, the government just hasn't gotten wise to them yet. Anything worth regulating eventually is.

[Timbo89]

They only use natural ingridients, not chemicaly engineered ones, pretty big diffrence. They are mostly to free up or help the testosterone you already have, not add more.

not chemically engineered? I beg to differ. Not all test boosters only use herbs. 6-oxo to name one.

[steve_d]

Are you asking if someone takes tribulus, we shouldn't be considered natural because we're hoping for the same effect as steroids?

First, tribulus is legal, can't argue that. Second, no one ever expects anywhere near the same effects as steroids. We'd just hope to get any little boost we can get. Just the same way as we would take creatine in the hopes of an extra boost there.

I am not 100% sure where you're going with the question as I can't imagine many people agreeing that it was difficult to justify a natural test booster as part of a nattys training regime.

A whole other question though if you're talking about those taking m1t and all the other wack of prohormones out there while they were coming out 1 by 1 each and every week a new one invented that would have been "legal" at the time. In that situation, there was a hope for steroid-like effects and it would be tough to consider yourself "natural" when these hormones were just going to be banned a year or 2 down the road. I guess in those cases, the justification is purely based on law:

If its legal now, "I can take it without being against the rules, therefore I am natural". Which to me kinda seems reasonable in terms of legality - maybe not as much when it comes to your health - "healthier" illegal options exist.

[Ritch]

The way I see it... If the supps you take bring you to the upper limit of what your body produces naturally it`s not cheating, and believe most these supps fall in that range. Shooting test brings you up and beyond those levels, at that moment, you are no longer in normal limits making it cheating if you will.

[marcman77]

this topic is a real "grey" area

[L3]

i belive if you're gonna be natural you have no place using supplements... food and water...thats what natural means to me...

also training w/out creatine sucks ass... props to all the guys who can do it

[Timbo89]

they might as well just call it "legal" bodybuilding. Because thats basically what most of them consider it. "if its legal im not cheating" like give me a break. LEGAL and NATURAL are totally different. and no im not talking about things like tribulus, im talking more along the lines of H-50, Superdrol... things like that.

[Ritch]

For sure stuff like halodrol and super drol are not natural!

[Ritch]

i belive if you're gonna be natural you have no place using supplements... food and water...thats what natural means to me...

also training w/out creatine sucks ass... props to all the guys who can do it

What? Only food and water? And yes training without creatine sucks ass...

[Dryvrgrl]

this kinda got me thinking...
I consider myself Natural, however, in a natural setting, giving my own devices, I would not look the way I do right now... I mean, doing 4 sets of 20 or anything is not NATURAL... know what I mean?... (nor is taking a jug of processed protein to mix a meal or two)

That being said, I would consider Natural and Legal to be pretty closely related. Taking CLA and L-glutamine might help my physique, but it's not going to put me in the same form as someone with the same genetic disposition as me, who is using banned substances... which is why I am a supporter of tested events... let me play on a level playing field... know what I mean?

The other thing that makes me consider myself "natural" is the fact that nothing I put into me has any proven health related side effects that I know of. my conditioning was all cardio, with a sodium /potassium load at the end.. it seemed to work fine...

"ahhh but dryvrgrl... you are not a bodybuilder"

Ms Manitoba is (imo) natural, as she does not use any banned substances either.. as a matter of fact, we were pretty much on the same diet/supps through the winter. There is always ALOT of pressure to "cross over", and I admire anyone who isn't afraid to compete with the "big guys" while being a natural athlete. As a trainer of professional athletes (who all have to sign a waiver that they are NOT using performance enhancing drugs) it would be pretty hypocritical to be using said drugs...

I guess it's boils down to what you feel comfortable with... I am comfortable taking creatine and calling myself natural... if someone else wants to say I am cheating because of my choice to take creatine or glutamine or processed whey. maybe they just have to do that to ease thier own conscience

[steve_d]

they might as well just call it "legal" bodybuilding. Because thats basically what most of them consider it. "if its legal im not cheating" like give me a break. LEGAL and NATURAL are totally different. and no im not talking about things like tribulus, im talking more along the lines of H-50, Superdrol... things like that.

I think most natural bodybuilders would agree with you here. Most natural bodybuilders (I would hope) consider prohormones and anything that has steroid like effects should be considered cheating.

If something can increase your bench by 50 pounds in a couple of weeks, it shouldn't be considered natural...Legal or not! Things like creatine and tribulus do not even come close to that effect. I just started taking creatine again after a long time without, and even that has only helped me 10 pounds at the most.

I like the term legal bodybuilding though....

[L3]

What? Only food and water? And yes training without creatine sucks ass...

yeah.,. you want your creatine fix?? go eat a ****ton of red meat

want some tribulus in your diet?? go put them roots there in your salad

i ****ing hate it when my friends say "man, im not like you, im all natural"... while they pound 2 scoops of NO explode and complain when their ears buzzz

[Ritch]

yeah.,. you want your creatine fix?? go eat a ****ton of red meat

want some tribulus in your diet?? go put them roots there in your salad

i ****ing hate it when my friends say "man, im not like you, im all natural"... while they pound 2 scoops of NO explode and complain when their ears buzzz

How much red meat does it take to get 5 grams?

[O-Train]

How much red meat does it take to get 5 grams?

Not sure. Maybe a couple pounds (but that's a total guess).

[MMASTAR]

agreed.. pro hormones are not natural..also not legal in canada... i beilive any test product sold otc in canada has to be herbal only..my sup shop doesnt even sell 6 oxo anymore.. lots of companies have diffrent recipes for canada as well.

[Dryvrgrl]

i think you can be considered Natural if you don't have a CLUE what most of the stuff you are talking about is!! never mind taking it!
;)

[Natty]

Natural bodybuilding is just that, natural to the human body or earth. Products like tribulus are plant extracts and therefore are natural. Products like 6-oxo are banned from natural competitions because they are just that not natural herbs or extracts. The idea of natural bodybuilding is to use what you body has (ie. making hormone levels optimal, not substituting then for chemicals) Products like creatine are considered natural because they are already in the whole foods we eat (ie beef).

[natenator]

Natural bodybuilding is just that, natural to the human body or earth. Products like tribulus are plant extracts and therefore are natural. Products like 6-oxo are banned from natural competitions because they are just that not natural herbs or extracts. The idea of natural bodybuilding is to use what you body has (ie. making hormone levels optimal, not substituting then for chemicals) Products like creatine are considered natural because they are already in the whole foods we eat (ie beef).
Testosterone is natural too...

[Natty]

Ya but isnt the test in juice chemically engineered? or is it just pulled from animals or synthesized. Oh and btw I have nothing against people who use, I just chose to compete natural myself. To eat his own..

[natenator]

Ya but isnt the test in juice chemically engineered? or is it just pulled from animals or synthesized. Oh and btw I have nothing against people who use, I just chose to compete natural myself. To eat his own..
Creatine is chemically engineered. Whey protein is chemically engineered. ALL Supplements are chemically engineered.

Natural to me as is LG3 defined it... nothing but gym and whole food. Anything that "enhances" your natural abilities which supplements do is to me not natural.

[Natty]

Creatine is chemically engineered. Whey protein is chemically engineered. ALL Supplements are chemically engineered.

Natural to me as is LG3 defined it... nothing but gym and whole food. Anything that "enhances" your natural abilities which supplements do is to me not natural.

Well there is very few if any of those in all the organizations I have competed with. Maybe they should call it something else? Like legal bodybuilding like someone else suggested? I dunno I just always thought if you werent using anything on the banned substance lists you are given as a natural competitior, you were a natural bodybuilder? Whatever I compete steriod, slin, diuretic, and gh free that to me is a natural bodybuilder.:beat

[natenator]

Well there is very few if any of those in all the organizations I have competed with. Maybe they should call it something else? Like legal bodybuilding like someone else suggested? I dunno I just always thought if you werent using anything on the banned substance lists you are given as a natural competitior, you were a natural bodybuilder? Whatever I compete steriod, slin, diuretic, and gh free that to me is a natural bodybuilder.:beat
Oh I am not talking specifically about what an organization deems "banned" or not. I am talking about what truly is natural bodybuilding which to me is nothing more than whole food, water and a gym membership.

[ironwill]

How much red meat does it take to get 5 grams?1lb

correction.....1 kg is equal to 3-5 grams of creatine, but most is destroyed through cooking....the body uses 2 grams per day.....stored in brain, testes, pancreas and other organs, we have about 120 grams stored in our bodies...thats what i found...sorry for stating wrong answer previous...

[physique]

How much red meat does it take to get 5 grams?

1 kilogram of uncooked meat is 4 grams. not sure how much is lost when u cook it.

[Ritch]

Thanks physique and ironwill. I knew it wasen`t a reasonable task to get your creatine from meat. That amount is just rediculous to have to pound in day day out...

[Timbo89]

Nate, you got a nice set of wheels going on haha. props.

[natenator]

Nate, you got a nice set of wheels going on haha. props.
lol thanks

better pic in my prep thread lol

[kloan]

Creatine is chemically engineered. Whey protein is chemically engineered. ALL Supplements are chemically engineered.

Natural to me as is LG3 defined it... nothing but gym and whole food. Anything that "enhances" your natural abilities which supplements do is to me not natural.

I agree most supplements are not food source, and are chemical by nature. Creatine, pre and post drink mixes, etc... but whey protein is not one of them. It is still derived from real dairy. It may be heavily refined and processed, but it still originates from natural food source ingredients.

[Bbuilder31]

I would have to agree with Kloan, as I have to be extremely careful as to what supplements I can and can't take. I am, as some of you nkow a competitive bodybuilder (I am a wannabe in my opinion lol) I have congenital heart disease, and have competed in 3 shows now. Bodybuilding is the best thing that could ever happen to me. I consider myself natural, however I do use supplements. I have used Creatine, Arginine, and of course TONS of Whey protien. Would you consider myself un-natural? I respect the dedication of those who use Steroids. I may not agree with the use of them, but their hard work in the gym doesn't change anything. They can just throw more weight than I could even fathom. That's my 2 cents worth.

Mike

[natenator]

I agree most supplements are not food source, and are chemical by nature. Creatine, pre and post drink mixes, etc... but whey protein is not one of them. It is still derived from real dairy. It may be heavily refined and processed, but it still originates from natural food source ingredients.
that's all I was referring to. Chemical processing to get a product that we consume today is not "natural". The ingredients may be natural but to get the end product requires a chemical altering of the original product. That's all I meant by it.

Of course I'm just being technical. Do I consider creatine, whey, etc natural means of bodybuilding? Sure I do but technically it is not "natural".

[CanadianIron]

I think "all natural" just means you have to pass a drug test before a comp. If a competitor stops taking hormones for the 2 months before a comp he can technically call himself natural at that given moment.

You have guys who use steroids most of the year, pass a drug test and call themselves natural because thats what the test says...

And then you have guys that wont even drink protein powder...

And then you have everyone in between...

Depending on what you accept for yourself, everyone is a cheat. The only governance is the drug testing... if you pass the test, you are natural... at least thats how the governing body sees it.

[tiramisu]

"Natural" means whatever the heck you want it to mean.

The last time i checked IGF-1, insulin, testosterone, and human growth hormone were natural.

[Shortdave]

Natural means no exogenous hormones. For the sake of argument lets assume supplements do what they claim to do, so take some trib and your test production will climb as high as your body can produce... and no higher. Take test and your body will effectively stop producing its own testosterone and rely on the product that you are taking.

Also weight lifting isn't a natural endeavor so if you want a truly natural competition it should just be a bunch of untanned, unshaven normal people and whoever has the best genetics wins.

[Vitamin S]

NATURALLY meaning they are natural if they were to be tested for that show that very day. ie they will stop their cycle way out or drop suspension a few days before the show etc or have been natural for a while.

if you look at some of the top naturals in the nation no way they did that without gear.

[nitrous]

NATURALLY meaning they are natural if they were to be tested for that show that very day. ie they will stop their cycle way out or drop suspension a few days before the show etc or have been natural for a while.

if you look at some of the top naturals in the nation no way they did that without gear.

that or they took a steroid designed to still pass the test which is also possible... most likely with some of them its both

[Andre]

"Natural" means whatever the heck you want it to mean.

The last time i checked IGF-1, insulin, testosterone, and human growth hormone were natural.

I agree...

[GYMBRAT]

I'm "natural" :)

[Drummer]

you cant even go natural with all the crap that is in food ;)

[kevin49]

i've never noticed any difference in training while taking tribulus other than libido.

[Andre Gregoire]

I totally agree with the original poster. Most pro-hormones are just half-assed versions of steroids anyway. They will cause you more side effects and problems than real gear. If you want to take that shit just take real gear and avoid many of the side effects and get real results. Then you have to compete with the big boys though.

Even d-aspartic acid is on my grey list right now. I have decided not to try it out even if it only raises natural test levels to high normal range.