If test is test, why do long esters cause more bloat?

[trainharder]

If test is test, why do long esters such as Test-E or Test-Cyp cause more bloat than short esters such as prop?

Why would the ester have an effect on the amount of water retained by the body?

[liquidfire]

I have found the opposite of that to be true. I get WAY more bloat with fast acting esters. My guess would be that your test levels are more stable with longer esters so less side effects in general.

[Tballs]

its all in your head. an ester just dictates the release time. same drug regardless imo.

[Mr Ontario]

I find that some people are just more prone to bloat and some are not...same with bitch tits.

[natenator]

diet diet diet

ppl generally associate prop/suspension with cutting therefore their diet of more intune to not hold much water - less carbs, more cardio, decreased sodium, etc. When longer esters like enan and cyp people consider these bulking compounds therefore carbs are increased, cardio is decreased and sodium is generally higher from the occassional dirty cheats.

as Jean Cretien said, the proof is the proof is the proof. Meaning test is test is test and it's your diet which controls 95% of the bloat one will see.

[LIVEHARD]

diet diet diet

ppl generally associate prop/suspension with cutting therefore their diet of more intune to not hold much water - less carbs, more cardio, decreased sodium, etc. When longer esters like enan and cyp people consider these bulking compounds therefore carbs are increased, cardio is decreased and sodium is generally higher from the occassional dirty cheats.

as Jean Cretien said, the proof is the proof is the proof. Meaning test is test is test and it's your diet which controls 95% of the bloat one will see.

I got my diet in order except for my one bad day a week
D-bol // T/enth cycle no bloat infact the opposite thank to the guys at CBB

[trainharder]

Thanks for all the replies! Repped! :)

[Timbo89]

I think the reason is because people should Still inject long acting esters EOD or ED to keep blood levels more stable. The more stable your blood levels are, the less sides like bloating you get. atleast this is what I find to be true from my person experiences.

[HeavyD]

i think it is as nate said, most use E or cyp for bulking, and prop for cutting, with that alone i think you can see how one could assume that.

but like you said test is test, just some are released differently.

and i just thought of this, correct me if im wrong but test prop is approx 83% test where cyp is i think 68-70%test, so could not more test produce even better results, such as fat lose?

[nisser]

I think the reason is because people should Still inject long acting esters EOD or ED to keep blood levels more stable. The more stable your blood levels are, the less sides like bloating you get. atleast this is what I find to be true from my person experiences.

No. There's just no point. As long as you pin sooner than the drugs half life your levels will stabilize after a certain time threshold and you won't get any benefit from pinning sooner.

[Durk]

I dont notice anything with bloat, but I notice a HUGE difference in strength gains using prop over E or C

[tiramisu]

I think we have a winner right here. I started with test-e twice a week and got fairly significant bloat at 500 mg/week.

At 1750 mg/wk injecting daily I got no bloat whatsoever.

Even on Test-E blood levels peak within 12 hours. The half life doesn't tell the full story. Even with a long ester the blood levels jump very rapidly then fall rapidly at first and then more slowly over time. People seem to assume that by injecting at the "half-life" on an ester that this will result in an optimal injection timing and even blood levels. It really doesn't make much sense but that is the bro science that most seem to quote.

... I'm digging through pubmed to try to find substantiation for the 12 hour number. beware it may change :)


I think the reason is because people should Still inject long acting esters EOD or ED to keep blood levels more stable. The more stable your blood levels are, the less sides like bloating you get. atleast this is what I find to be true from my person experiences.

[tiramisu]

from pubmed http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/endocrj/53/3/305/_pdf
There some nice graphs of blood serum levels not broken down by 12 hour increments but certainly peaks in day 1.
If you chuck out the outliers on day 6 the graph is a nice smooth down trend to day 14 from day 1 on.

[Body By Balco]

I totally agree with Tiramisu. I'ts all about injection frequency not the ester. As was said, people mistakening have been lead to believe that for BODYBUILDING purposes, longer ester can allow for a greater period of time between injections. Wrong! Period. Post injection levels are greatest regardless of the ester in the first 24hrs (logarithmic ester decomposition, freeing the base hormone). By extending the period between injections, exogenous testosteorne levels begin to decline rapidly as a ratio (T:E) in comparison to the aromatization into estrogens (there is not any new exo Test beign administered during the intervals).

Longer injection intervals also forces the injections to be of greater dosage which further compounds the problem.

[Drummer]

Its all about the "peak". Peak levels of prop usually dont reach as high as peak levels of say, cyp or enth. Long esters have a chance to build up, and short esters decay quickly. The higher the peak, the more water retention. Your body reacts to higher test levels by pumping out more aromatase enzymes to make more estrogen to level the playing field. The estrogens help hold water, which for me is a desired effect when bulking.

~D~

[punkrock]

I dont notice anything with bloat, but I notice a HUGE difference in strength gains using prop over E or C

That may just be from dosing, I have found this sort of chart on several sites. May explain why you feel more gains from Prop....

Chemical = Formula = Molecular Weight = Mg of Testosterone
Testosterone (no ester) = C19 H28 O2 = 288.4mg = 100mg
Propionate = C3 H4 O = 56.1mg = 83.72mg
Cypionate = C8 H4 O = 124.2mg = 69.90mg

Better explain at
http://www.steroid.com/Testosterone-Propionate.php

[vegan_hunter]

Why do people over complicate such simple things?

I'm suprised that nobody has thrown out the good old: Cypionate is better than Enanthate or visa versa! In the end, its all the same hormone floating around in your blood.

[Solo59]

Interesting article here on testosterone esters:

Anabolic Steroid Esters - Much more than just Half Life! - Anthony Roberts Online (http://blog.anthonyrobertsonline.com/2009/02/anabolic-steroid-esters-much-more-than-just-half-life/)

I like this part:

"Have I mentioned that testosterone’s effect on Growth Hormone and IGF-I (two very anabolic hormones) are also dependant on aromatization to estrogen? Again, this is why we gain more muscle with the long estered tests. (3, 4, 5). This means that you actually get far more anabolism from the longer estered testosterones, because the increased conversion to estrogen will provide a greater elevation in your GH and IGF-1 levels. And many other positive effects of testosterone are actually dependent on it’s conversion to estrogen as well."

Longer esters retain more estrogen, apparently, so that may account for the water retention in some. (I never experience this since I use Adex.) But the estro actually allows for more muscle mass growth, apparently.

Solo

[trainharder]

Longer esters retain more estrogen, apparently, so that may account for the water retention in some. (I never experience this since I use Adex.) But the estro actually allows for more muscle mass growth, apparently.

Solo

That's what I used to think too but Gustavo suggested in another thread you only need a very small amount of estrogen to produce IGF-1.

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showpost.php?p=204869&postcount=6

[JonnyO]

diet diet diet

ppl generally associate prop/suspension with cutting therefore their diet of more intune to not hold much water - less carbs, more cardio, decreased sodium, etc. When longer esters like enan and cyp people consider these bulking compounds therefore carbs are increased, cardio is decreased and sodium is generally higher from the occassional dirty cheats.

as Jean Cretien said, the proof is the proof is the proof. Meaning test is test is test and it's your diet which controls 95% of the bloat one will see.

I agree here. I dont really bloat off certain types of test, but if Im offseason my face can get a little bit puffy whether Im on Prop or sust as it is diet related. Same with precontest I can get lean using sust or any type of test.

I also always run some Aromasin for all my cycles as well. You'd be amazed how well it works at keeping you look like your using tren or something like that when your not.