Pec Flies not so good?

[Skyblob]

Guys im wondering if pectoral flies are kinda useless if you want to build a big and nice defined chest. Ive always done flies, cable crossovers, incline cable flies .. ive made all of them. I think its good to stretch and to pump the blood in the pecs, but is it good to build mass? How about those exercices to build a chest?

Incline Presses
Flat Presses
Decline Presses
Pullovers
and end of exercices fascia stretching.

Please give me your advices and please tell me if you know any studies done on this or w/e, or if any pros loves flies for mass or w/e, im hear to learn :) ty

[Ritch]

Guys im wondering if pectoral flies are kinda useless if you want to build a big and nice defined chest. Ive always done flies, cable crossovers, incline cable flies .. ive made all of them. I think its good to stretch and to pump the blood in the pecs, but is it good to build mass? How about those exercices to build a chest?

Incline Presses
Flat Presses
Decline Presses
Pullovers
and end of exercices fascia stretching.

Please give me your advices and please tell me if you know any studies done on this or w/e, or if any pros loves flies for mass or w/e, im hear to learn :) ty

I hope you`re not planning on doing all the incline, flat and decline presses in one workout. That`s overkill unless you`re only doing 2 sets per exercise.

[Skyblob]

I hope you`re not planning on doing all the incline, flat and decline presses in one workout. That`s overkill unless you`re only doing 2 sets per exercise.
No im doing 2 day split. Like monday im doing Incline smith press wide grip, partial reps... 2-3sec pause when im down, explosive movement for pushing... 4 reps 12-10-8-6, then doing 4 sets of cable incline flies , with slow eccentric movements. And on friday, still hitting chest, will be doing Flat DB press or Hammer Press machine, still going partial reps ... 4 sets 12-10-8-6 and then finishing with Decline BB bench wide grip partial reps 4 sets 12-10-8-6. Without forget fascia stretching in the end ...

[Ritch]

Personally would not do flat and decline in the same workout. Doing 2 incline movements is good, because the upper portion of the pecs is always what lacks. Your plan could work. Are the partial reps being done because you`re aiming to go ultra heavy here?

[Skyblob]

Well i thaught i would want to go heavy, but since i will be on tren, i will already be lifting heavy, and im already lifting heavy, so dont want to go too heavy soon, so ill put partial to garbage, but what im going to do is to not lock my elbows and put my muscles in constant tension. Doing slow negative movements. with explosive pushing.

[Skyblob]

why not for the flat and decline bro?

[Ritch]

why not for the flat and decline bro?

Personally find most guys lower pecs are way too big in comparision to the upper. I mean who has too much uppre pecks? I`d do either a decline press and an incline dumbell or flat press and inlcine dumbell press again, but that`s just me. If I were to do all those flat and lower presses I would literally look like I have a set of tits. Then I would have guys like DK saying "what are you doing later on..."

[JonnyO]

Incline, flat and decline in the same workout is fine IMHO.

But to your question about flies, they are a great exercise and can build the chest for sure. I prefer incline. You can go lighter for a full stretch or heavier with a bit of bend in the arms for sort of and press fly movement.

Also skip the partials if you want a good chest. Press just before lockout is fine and safe on your joints. You could do partials at the end of the set instead.

[waderow]

I do partials for last set often with a lighter weight, and it really pumps up the muscle, and end the lifting on a great note

[Andre]

I would skip the decline presses all together... start with incline and then go to flat... barbell and db's... at the end some fly type moves... the majority of the people I see have underdevolped upper pecs...

[Ritch]

I would skip the decline presses all together... start with incline and then go to flat... barbell and db's... at the end some fly type moves... the majority of the people I see have underdevolped upper pecs...

That`s exactly what I do exept no flat at all, I swear I get tits when I do flat presses. All incline. Decline to me is ego training, we all know why guys like the decline... But some like it because they don`t feel the shoulders in the movement. So it can be good for you...

[Skyblob]

The problem guys is that i have difficulty to build upper chest and bottom chest -_- well all my chest is hard to build, i need to workout it in all angles for it to become nice. Thats the prob, but im mainly concentrating in upper chest! So do you think if i toss decline bench, my lower chest will suffer? because im lacking lower chest i know it, i have gyno from puberty, and i know when ill get it off, ill have a kinda flat looking lower chest... or if i toss the flat ? will my middle suffer... like lets say i do Uper chest and Lower chest... lol ... But keep in mind im doing my all my chest in 2 days , cause im doing a 2day split program but like i said :
Monday Workout A1
Weds : Workout B1
Friday: Workout A2 ( same muscles as Monday just different exercices)
Sun: Workout B2
so goes on.

Thank you for all ur advices! :)

[Andre]

For starters, you only have 'one' chest... looking at it like upper, middle and lower is a mistake... scrap the decline and train your complete chest HARD once a week... I suggest that most people start with incline, however you can start with flat and then move on to incline... make sure your ROM is good as it's one of the keys to building a nice full chest... keep the rep range around 10-12... never go under 8 reps...

[Skyblob]

What is ROM bro? never knew lol, but yes i know there is 2 parts of pecs, Minor (upper) and major ( rest ) . Here what im planning for my split, srry but i wont do my muscles only once per week, ive done it for 2 years and half and i need a change.

Monday:Chest/Shoulders/Triceps/Calves
Incline Smith Bench ( wide grip )
Hammer strength press
Barbell Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Dips
Skullcrushers
Calves machine

Weds: Back/Bis/Quads/Hams
weighted pullups
barbell rows
Barbell Curls
Preacher curls
Squats
Leg curls

Friday: Same muscles as monday
Decline Bench
Flat DB press
DB shoulder press
Rear lateral raises
Incline smith close grip bench ( triceps )
Behind the neck dumbell extension
Calves machine

Sunday: Same muscles as Weds
Machine pulldown
Deadlifts
Hammer Curls
Concentrate DB curls
Legpress
Leg curls

For arms im only doing 3sets each, so total 6 sets.

[Andre]

ROM = Range Of Motion
The photos below are 6 months apart... so I am talking from experience in terms of what works...
http://solo2.abac.com/avigdor/fat2fit/Resize%20of%202003%20to%202004%20front.jpg

[JonnyO]

What is ROM bro? never knew lol, but yes i know there is 2 parts of pecs, Minor (upper) and major ( rest ) . Here what im planning for my split, srry but i wont do my muscles only once per week, ive done it for 2 years and half and i need a change.

Monday:Chest/Shoulders/Triceps/Calves
Incline Smith Bench ( wide grip )
Hammer strength press
Barbell Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Dips
Skullcrushers
Calves machine

Weds: Back/Bis/Quads/Hams
weighted pullups
barbell rows
Barbell Curls
Preacher curls
Squats
Leg curls

Friday: Same muscles as monday
Decline Bench
Flat DB press
DB shoulder press
Rear lateral raises
Incline smith close grip bench ( triceps )
Behind the neck dumbell extension
Calves machine

Sunday: Same muscles as Weds
Machine pulldown
Deadlifts
Hammer Curls
Concentrate DB curls
Legpress
Leg curls

For arms im only doing 3sets each, so total 6 sets.


Is this your own modified version of DC training?

[Skyblob]

SHit dude, nice progress !| Good job ;) Keep it up ! Thanks for advices :)

[Skyblob]

Yes it is bro, not wanting to test DC now, especially not on cycle while doing test n tren... will lift too heavy and i really dont want to injure myself, will do DC when natural for the simple reason that the workouts are short, about 1hour. And i will lift heavy but not too heavy since i will be natural. SO less chance of injury. And also i wont do as much as volume than i will be doing on cycle, so less chance of overtraining.

[Ritch]

Dude no offense you`re asking alot of questions about training you should already know considering you`re juicing...

[Skyblob]

Hehe, i know im asking alot of questions, just im used to 5day split, i know all on this, but its my 1st time im doing 2 day split and i just want others advices. :)

[Ritch]

Hehe, i know im asking alot of questions, just im used to 5day split, i know all on this, but its my 1st time im doing 2 day split and i just want others advices. :)

That`s good to hear. You had me puzzled because you don`t look like a newbie, but when asked about the word ROM and seing your split, it just didn`t make sense. But I did suspect it was a version you made for yourself of DC training as well. Glad you didn`t take offense to my post. As it`s been said before never be affraid to ask questions. I`ve asked the most basic and newbie questions on how to pin and even getting the freakin oil out of the vial! And it`s a good thing I asked and a good thing the bros`s helped me out.

[Skyblob]

That`s good to hear. You had me puzzled because you don`t look like a newbie, but when asked about the word ROM and seing your split, it just didn`t make sense. But I did suspect it was a version you made for yourself of DC training as well. Glad you didn`t take offense to my post. As it`s been said before never be affraid to ask questions. I`ve asked the most basic and newbie questions on how to pin and even getting the freakin oil out of the vial! And it`s a good thing I asked and a good thing the bros`s helped me out.
Hehe yep your right bro, you have to ask questions, wheter its stupid or not, because if you want to get an awnser and know how to do it, you need to ask. But, sometimes its better to shut it haha ! :P Not pointing you btw :lick :). But talking bout pinning, hmm, should i inject underground stuff in delts? or too risky for abcess?

[Andre]

Hehe yep your right bro, you have to ask questions, wheter its stupid or not, because if you want to get an awnser and know how to do it, you need to ask. But, sometimes its better to shut it haha ! :P Not pointing you btw :lick :). But talking bout pinning, hmm, should i inject underground stuff in delts? or too risky for abcess?

You look like a young guy... my advice would be stay off the sauce until you perfect your diet and training... I am not trying to be a smarta$$, I honestly mean it....

[Skyblob]

Yes i know, its a good advice you got, but ive made my decisions and i already have my gear at home, just taking 1 week off of training then next week will start the cycle and training, no way ill come back . But thanks for the advice bro :)

[Houstonbc]

**** decline do dips instead for lower chest

[Skyblob]

**** decline do dips instead for lower chest

Already doing dips on my upper chest day for triceps, guess it will hit lower too. :)

[Ritch]

Already doing dips on my upper chest day for triceps, guess it will hit lower too. :)

Depends on how you do them. Usuallly when you lean your body forward with the elbows flared out, you hit chest. When you keep your body straight, with the elbows together, it will work the tri`s. Doing both in the same workout will be rough on your shoulders. But they are a great exercise for either.

[Iwant2Grow]

.

[Skyblob]

Depends on how you do them. Usuallly when you lean your body forward with the elbows flared out, you hit chest. When you keep your body straight, with the elbows together, it will work the tri`s. Doing both in the same workout will be rough on your shoulders. But they are a great exercise for either.

Here is my workout :

Monday:Chest/Shoulders/Triceps/Calves
Incline Smith Bench ( wide grip )
Hammer strength press
Incline Flys (Cable) (3sets)
Barbell Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Dips
Skullcrushers
Calves machine

Weds: Back/Bis/Quads/Hams
weighted pullups
Staight Arm Pulldowns
barbell rows
Barbell Curls
Preacher curls
Squats
Leg curls

Friday: Same muscles as monday
Decline Bench
Flat DB press
Incline Flys (Dumbell) (3sets)
Front DB raises
Rear lateral raises
Incline smith close grip bench ( triceps )
Behind the neck dumbell extension
Calves machine

Sunday: Same muscles as Weds
Machine pulldown
T-bar Rows
Deadlifts
Hammer Curls
Concentrate DB curls
Legpress
Leg curls

[Drummer]

My chest is very tough to grow. The only successful way is for me to lift heavy, 2 sets per exercise, fail by 7. Get at least 4. I warm up for about 10 minutes with 50% for 10, 60% for 7, 70% for 4 and 90% for 1. Rest, stretch a bit (3 minutes) then i go all out. Inline bar, flat bar, weighted wide leaning dips. This had worked wonders for me. I dont bother with decline. Dips handle that. All the cables, flys, peck deck etc are for later if you like, but wont be nearly as effective at mass building compared to the major compound motions.

Lately, ive been doint opposing supersets (pull, push) and have gone to new levels almost immediately. Cable rows straight to incline. wide t bar rows straingt to flat (30 second rest). For someone who has a hard time building chest, these worked for me. Im currently doing incline bar at 245, flat bar at 295, dips at me+120lbs. This, for me, is excellent. Maybe it will work for you?

~D~

[Drummer]

**** decline do dips instead for lower chest

AMEN!! the most overlooked thing is weighted leaning wide grip dips for that WIDE chest!

~D~

[Skyblob]

Very nice Drummer, ive done what youve told me to do, but as you see, im doing dips ( leaning forward ) for the triceps exercise but it will mainly hit the lower chest. For my chest im doing 11 sets. for my back im doing 12 sets. :)

[rickyboy36]

You look like a young guy... my advice would be stay off the sauce until you perfect your diet and training... I am not trying to be a smarta$$, I honestly mean it....

I know skybob,and he's one to do alot of research.And dont forget,he's french also so there are some words(like ROM) he might not know.I find it funny how some people say to 18 yr olds not to juice but its ok for a 25 yr old to be on it.Dont you think no matter what age you are..if you have NO EXpiernece then you shouldnt be doing it.I see so many 22,23 yr olds with no expierience get away with this without anyone telling them not to juice .In skybobs case,he,s smart and does alot of researching.The reason for his multiple questions is that he's the perfectionist type.He wants to succeed and go very far!

And to answer your question SKY..do anything that you feel HITS your chest.You may have 2 parts...but they both grow at the same time..no matter if you do decline,incline,or flat.Its an ALL or nothing thing.I too thought you could,but after further research i came to the conclusion you cant.Theres a thread here that ohurley started which has info in there that states this truth.So in short..if you feel that FLYS hit you chest without any other muscles helping in then go for it.Also,if ever you give flat/decline/incline barbell a shot stop the bar about 4 inches from your chest so that the shoulders dont aid in you pushing up like Rich said

[Skyblob]

Good post rick ;) But i agree with you taht with any exercises you do hit all your chest, but u agree with me if you only do some decline bench, you will lack upper chest no? What i mean is that if you do incline chest, you mainly hit your upper chest for like 70% and 30% is the rest ( in example ) . So im mostly aiming upper chest workouts because thats the part im lacking bro. :) Thanks alot ;)

[rickyboy36]

Good post rick ;) But i agree with you taht with any exercises you do hit all your chest, but u agree with me if you only do some decline bench, you will lack upper chest no? What i mean is that if you do incline chest, you mainly hit your upper chest for like 70% and 30% is the rest ( in example ) . So im mostly aiming upper chest workouts because thats the part im lacking bro. :) Thanks alot ;)

Nope,its just like legs.You cant hit a particular "place" in either the top or bottom part just like you cant hit a certain place in the legs or bicep or tricep.Its all..or nothing.If people do incline and they feel the top part of the chest is harder its because first they are doing the exercise right AND BECAUSE THE STRESS is on the top part so therefore the blood rushes in to that particular spot.Its the same with decline.You FEEL IT MORE at the bottom cause the stress is there and the PUMP is there.But when it comes time to BUILD the muscle,the WHOLE lenght of that fibre from downwards and up GETS REPAIRED.So your whole chest is growing no matter what exercise you are doing bro.If you have a lagging chest part,whether thats at the bottom,side or upper chest..its because thats THE SHAPE OF YOUR MUSCLE and you cannot change that:)

[rickyboy36]

This in my opionion,is the biggest myth ever when it comes time to building muscle where one thinks he c an shape a muscle

Heres an article that explains what i mean go here and its at post number "16" in that thread i belive

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7320&highlight=anatomy+101

[Drummer]

I know skybob,and he's one to do alot of research.And dont forget,he's french also so there are some words(like ROM) he might not know.I find it funny how some people say to 18 yr olds not to juice but its ok for a 25 yr old to be on it.Dont you think no matter what age you are..if you have NO EXpiernece then you shouldnt be doing it.I see so many 22,23 yr olds with no expierience get away with this without anyone telling them not to juice .In skybobs case,he,s smart and does alot of researching.The reason for his multiple questions is that he's the perfectionist type.He wants to succeed and go very far!

And to answer your question SKY..do anything that you feel HITS your chest.You may have 2 parts...but they both grow at the same time..no matter if you do decline,incline,or flat.Its an ALL or nothing thing.I too thought you could,but after further research i came to the conclusion you cant.Theres a thread here that ohurley started which has info in there that states this truth.So in short..if you feel that FLYS hit you chest without any other muscles helping in then go for it.Also,if ever you give flat/decline/incline barbell a shot stop the bar about 4 inches from your chest so that the shoulders dont aid in you pushing up like Rich said

im only answering one part of this post : the reason you wait to juice is because your body is not really physiologically ready for it. it has nothing to do with experience. its just not wise, and you can do a lot more damage to yourself permanently the younger you start. That said, its still up to you. I started at 27.

~D~

[Drummer]

Good post rick ;) But i agree with you taht with any exercises you do hit all your chest, but u agree with me if you only do some decline bench, you will lack upper chest no? What i mean is that if you do incline chest, you mainly hit your upper chest for like 70% and 30% is the rest ( in example ) . So im mostly aiming upper chest workouts because thats the part im lacking bro. :) Thanks alot ;)

Pectorals are split into 2. I use ExRx.net for reference to body mechanics. I absolutely, positively know that without proper incline, you dont build that upper shelf for a nice full chest. You are correct..

~D~

[Skyblob]

im only answering one part of this post : the reason you wait to juice is because your body is not really physiologically ready for it. it has nothing to do with experience. its just not wise, and you can do a lot more damage to yourself permanently the younger you start. That said, its still up to you. I started at 27.

~D~

I do agree that the younger you start, the more chances you get unwanted side effects later. But, i do not understand your point that my body isnt ready... Even if it is in high production of testosterone, why would he be less ready than a x guy that is 35 years old, with a lower production of testosterone. Also, the younger you start roids, the younger you will have side effects according to what you say, if i read right. But, the fact is that if you start at 21 instead of 18, you will save 3 years of your life without side effects. What im trying to say is that when you chose to put AAS into your body, wheter your age or not... you should be know the side effects you are risking for and assuming them, doesnt matter your 18 or 27. Even if you are 27 you can do more damage to your body than me, depends on your body, everyone is different. So 18 or 27, if you put aas into your body, you should had assumed to consequences that may happen.

[Skyblob]

Also, you shouldnt be running any AAS imo if you are telling yourself, ahh i will take a chance with my body and i hope i wont get any unwanted side effects. You should be telling yourself, ok i made the choice of running AAS, now if i have any sides i will have to deal with them, i entirely assume the consequences.

[O-Train]

This in my opionion,is the biggest myth ever when it comes time to building muscle where one thinks he c an shape a muscle

Heres an article that explains what i mean go here and its at post number "16" in that thread i belive

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7320&highlight=anatomy+101

You picked the one part I didn't write :(. The posts I made afterwards explain my point of view.

It is true that the pectoralis major (pec minor isn't worth discussing) works as one functional unit. But I still don't think that means any and every exercise stimulates it in the same way. I think that way because I understand biomechanics and functional anatomy. And I can prove it by doing certain exercises in the gym that absolutely target specific areas of the body.

The reason pec flys are good is that you essentially take elbow extension out of play. So the triceps cannot assist the chest and the muscle is more isolated. By the same token you also do not stimulate as much muscle fiber because the weight is decreased and the number of muscle groups that act as prime movers also decreases.

I think they are best used as a finishing exercise. A lot of the time with pressing movements elbow extension (tricep strength) is a limiting factor. So doing pec flys immediately following a pressing movement is optimal for fatiguing the chest.

Just make sure you arn't going too deep or quickly because when you open up the shoulder joint (during a deep range of motion) with elbows out from the body it can cause injury.

[rickyboy36]

You picked the one part I didn't write :(. The posts I made afterwards explain my point of view.

It is true that the pectoralis major (pec minor isn't worth discussing) works as one functional unit. But I still don't think that means any and every exercise stimulates it in the same way. I think that way because I understand biomechanics and functional anatomy. And I can prove it by doing certain exercises in the gym that absolutely target specific areas of the body.

The reason pec flys are good is that you essentially take elbow extension out of play. So the triceps cannot assist the chest and the muscle is more isolated. By the same token you also do not stimulate as much muscle fiber because the weight is decreased and the number of muscle groups that act as prime movers also decreases.

I think they are best used as a finishing exercise. A lot of the time with pressing movements elbow extension (tricep strength) is a limiting factor. So doing pec flys immediately following a pressing movement is optimal for fatiguing the chest.

Just make sure you arn't going too deep or quickly because when you open up the shoulder joint (during a deep range of motion) with elbows out from the body it can cause injury.

I agree with your whole post.Different exercises will help stimulate the muscle in different ways.Like flys,you isolate the chest by taking out other muscles.But to let others know,you do agree that no matter where you hit the chest(upper,lower,inner,outer) with whatever exercise, the whole chest grows right?

[O-Train]

I agree with your whole post.Different exercises will help stimulate the muscle in different ways.Like flys,you isolate the chest by taking out other muscles.But to let others know,you do agree that no matter where you hit the chest(upper,lower,inner,outer) with whatever exercise, the whole chest grows right?

Absolutely, the whole chest grows. You can't turn on or off certain portions of a muscle. However I do believe that, for example, an incline press would produce more growth in the clavicular portion of the pec major as opposed to the areas with a sternal attachment. I think that areas of a muscle that are at a biomechanical advantage to contribute to force production incur more damage. I believe this cellular damage leads to more repair and growth. The reason these muscle fibers contribute more to force production is because of their origin and insertion point (orientation).

The best way to illustrate this is by looking at the trapezius muscle. Familiarize yourself with the anatomy of this muscle and you will see that different areas of the muscle contribute more to different movements. For example when you elevate your shoulders during a shrug. You are almost exclusively using the upper portion of the trapezius (what most people think of as traps). During a horizontal row with elbows out from the body you are using more of the lower fibers of the trapezius. (Assuming shoulder elevation is limited). It is the same muscle but because not all of the muscle fibers have the same origin and insertion point they do not all pull in the same direction. So different areas are responsible for slightly different movements because of the muscle fiber orientation. The pectoralis major works in much the same way.

In summary: Two muscle fibers that have identical origin and insertion points will pull in exactly the same direction and do exactly the same thing. Two muscle fibers (even within the same muscle) that do not share a common origin and insertion point will not pull in the same direction and so will produce slightly different actions.

I hope this makes sense. At least it's better than me saying "it's just the way it works".

[O-Train]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezius

Good old Wiki. The trapezius is really complicated. Within just this one muscle you have some fibers elevating and some fibers depressing the scapula. They actually oppose each other. It makes sense when you look at just how many different attachment points there are.

So if you have winged scapula (tits on your back). Working one aspect of the trapezius (scapula elevation and medial rotation with shrugs) will make it worse. Working another aspect (scapula retraction and depression) will make it better. All within one muscle. Pretty wild eh?

[Skyblob]

Excellent post guys. But something that im following is as simple as this : when you feel the pump and the pain in a certain muscle, it means that you are working it. So if you do incline press, you will feel all your chest engorged of blood, but you will mainly feel your minor chest part stretching and having more pump than the rest. Thats for me. Just listen to your body. But it's good to read all your posts, I love science :lick :) especially the human body anatomy.

[Drummer]

Absolutely, the whole chest grows. You can't turn on or off certain portions of a muscle. However I do believe that, for example, an incline press would produce more growth in the clavicular portion of the pec major as opposed to the areas with a sternal attachment. I think that areas of a muscle that are at a biomechanical advantage to contribute to force production incur more damage. I believe this cellular damage leads to more repair and growth. The reason these muscle fibers contribute more to force production is because of their origin and insertion point (orientation).

The best way to illustrate this is by looking at the trapezius muscle. Familiarize yourself with the anatomy of this muscle and you will see that different areas of the muscle contribute more to different movements. For example when you elevate your shoulders during a shrug. You are almost exclusively using the upper portion of the trapezius (what most people think of as traps). During a horizontal row with elbows out from the body you are using more of the lower fibers of the trapezius. (Assuming shoulder elevation is limited). It is the same muscle but because not all of the muscle fibers have the same origin and insertion point they do not all pull in the same direction. So different areas are responsible for slightly different movements because of the muscle fiber orientation. The pectoralis major works in much the same way.

In summary: Two muscle fibers that have identical origin and insertion points will pull in exactly the same direction and do exactly the same thing. Two muscle fibers (even within the same muscle) that do not share a common origin and insertion point will not pull in the same direction and so will produce slightly different actions.

I hope this makes sense. At least it's better than me saying "it's just the way it works".


:D

[rickyboy36]

im only answering one part of this post : the reason you wait to juice is because your body is not really physiologically ready for it. it has nothing to do with experience. its just not wise, and you can do a lot more damage to yourself permanently the younger you start. That said, its still up to you. I started at 27.

~D~

I still dont agree.Look at a WOMANS body for example.It is never ready for that no matter what age she is..but we still give her advice.Furthermore,most of them ask about doses and sides which clearly show they have no knowlegde.But we continue giving them advice and show them the way around and tell them to be careful.But we never tell them ""hey,this is not a wise choice,dont juice..im serious".To me it has nothing to do with age or sex(unless of course your young teen.We have to draw the line somewhere..).It has to do with prior expeirience as a natty and knowledge about steroids.

An 18 yr old may still have some growth,i agree,but the chances are SLIGHT that anything happens. Lots of kids are taking "shit" at my gym.You guys know how it is..d-bol,M1T,deca only cycles.They're still growing!!!
What im trying to say is if these guys want to juice and they are informed and did research(research can be done here asking questions too you know)and know about the consequences that "might"(did i say might) happen and know not to abuse them(which is funny cause we dont say a goddamn word to older guys here who do abuse) AND have prior expierience in the gym lifting and eating right,I say go for it.Who are we to tell them "hey kid,**** off with the juice--you're too young".In Skyblobs case he's been training for a couple of yrs now and know his diet as well...

[Drummer]

I still dont agree.Look at a WOMANS body for example.It is never ready for that no matter what age she is..but we still give her advice.Furthermore,most of them ask about doses and sides which clearly show they have no knowlegde.But we continue giving them advice and show them the way around and tell them to be careful.But we never tell them ""hey,this is not a wise choice,dont juice..im serious".To me it has nothing to do with age or sex(unless of course your young teen.We have to draw the line somewhere..).It has to do with prior expeirience as a natty and knowledge about steroids.

An 18 yr old may still have some growth,i agree,but the chances are SLIGHT that anything happens. Lots of kids are taking "shit" at my gym.You guys know how it is..d-bol,M1T,deca only cycles.They're still growing!!!
What im trying to say is if these guys want to juice and they are informed and did research(research can be done here asking questions too you know)and know about the consequences that "might"(did i say might) happen and know not to abuse them(which is funny cause we dont say a goddamn word to older guys here who do abuse) AND have prior expierience in the gym lifting and eating right,I say go for it.Who are we to tell them "hey kid,**** off with the juice--you're too young".In Skyblobs case he's been training for a couple of yrs now and know his diet as well...

Theres nothing to disagree with. Its just medical fact. Its not even my opinion. And yes, the older you are (starting at 18 and going UP) the less of a chance you have to stunt or permanently hurt your endorcrine system. And as you mentioned, there are all of the other factors that are important to avoid injury, and produce the most gains with the least juice. Is your : diet up to par, your nervous system, your connective tissue, your cardio system. Are you mature enough to handle the sides. Only experience and plenty (id say a year or 2 minimum training) can prepare you. These are just guidelines, and there is always a young guy who wants to argue that to justify his juicing. No one said "**** off your too young".

Thing is, there is nothing to argue. The above facts are simply true and not up for debate. That said, its STILL your choice, and yes, some ppl may be ready at 18. But id say most arent at that age, for one or more of the above reasons.

BTW, we are not talking about women, and using that as a comparison is not valid. Thats apples and oranges. Even if you were to compare, id still tell them to wait to start.

~D~

[Drummer]

oh yea, here is that link to the upper chest from exrx.net

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.html

[rickyboy36]

Theres nothing to disagree with. Its just medical fact. Its not even my opinion. And yes, the older you are (starting at 18 and going UP) the less of a chance you have to stunt or permanently hurt your endorcrine system. And as you mentioned, there are all of the other factors that are important to avoid injury, and produce the most gains with the least juice. Is your : diet up to par, your nervous system, your connective tissue, your cardio system. Are you mature enough to handle the sides. Only experience and plenty (id say a year or 2 minimum training) can prepare you. These are just guidelines, and there is always a young guy who wants to argue that to justify his juicing. No one said "**** off your too young".

Thing is, there is nothing to argue. The above facts are simply true and not up for debate. That said, its STILL your choice, and yes, some ppl may be ready at 18. But id say most arent at that age, for one or more of the above reasons.

BTW, we are not talking about women, and using that as a comparison is not valid. Thats apples and oranges. Even if you were to compare, id still tell them to wait to start.

~D~

I understand what you are saying Drummer and you right.You have to draw the line somewhere. MOST arent ready because they didnt train long enough or learn how to eat right.Physically,they are less prepared also(kinda)but you need to look at the over all statistics of people actually getting any damage to their growth plates at this age when aas was taken moderatley.With that being said Drummer I would say that age isnt an issue at all because NO ONE should be juicing.Everyone is prone to liver damage,****ed up sex lives and you name it.But we do it cause we studied it and we know if we are careful it can be done with little chances of anything happening.Same goes for the 18 yr old,even though his chances could be "slighty" higher

Actually what im trying to say is that i agree with you.And it may seem like im coming out on you,but actually im not.Im just tired of seeing people leave sarcastic and unecessary remarks to those who are 18 without even knowing who they are or what they did before.With that being said,if they have the expierience as a natty,and have done their research and have nailed their diet down,I really dont see any problem with them developing any type of physical problem if we go with what the statistics say.

And by the way i used WOMEN as an example just to show you how some of us can be hypicritical.Im saying this to the ones who are ready to help the women who did no research whatsoever(plus who has wayyyyyyyy more chances of ****eing herself up),but lashes out on the 18yr old who comes heres and asks questions.

[JonnyO]

Yes it is bro, not wanting to test DC now, especially not on cycle while doing test n tren... will lift too heavy and i really dont want to injure myself, will do DC when natural for the simple reason that the workouts are short, about 1hour. And i will lift heavy but not too heavy since i will be natural. SO less chance of injury. And also i wont do as much as volume than i will be doing on cycle, so less chance of overtraining.

This doesnt make any sense to me DC training is very hard on the CNS and it takes a while to recover...hence the way it is designed into a 3 or 4 way split. Doing it while on cycle would be the most beneficial because you will be able to recover from the workouts much faster. Please don tell me your strength goes up that much that your afraid of injuring yourself, you should know your limits and RP training is pretty safe as your not pushing 1RM's here.

[O-Train]

This doesnt make any sense to me DC training is very hard on the CNS and it takes a while to recover...hence the way it is designed into a 3 or 4 way split. Doing it while on cycle would be the most beneficial because you will be able to recover from the workouts much faster. Please don tell me your strength goes up that much that your afraid of injuring yourself, you should know your limits and RP training is pretty safe as your not pushing 1RM's here.

I agree, DC training works great for natural guys but even better for guys on cycle.

[Drummer]

Yep. Natural - take it easy so your immune system and every other system that needs recovery time gets it (not to mention nutrition). On cycle - i push a lot harder, listen to my body, and train according. Usually i can train almost 2x as hard while on. NOT 2x as heavy, or 2x as many reps, just 2x times the effort, and more often.

~D~

[Skyblob]

So what are your thoughts guys? Should i go on DC or with my 2 day split program? Which one you guys think i will grow the most .
Thanks for all advices btw.

[Drummer]

I think you may have the best idea of what works for you... if your making gains week after week, even 1 rep, its working.

~D~

[Skyblob]

Alright then, ill guess ill try the 2day split in first, to see how it will work for me ! :)

[sdonnell]

actually, my roommate has very topheavy pecs. Its hilarious and I always make fun of him for it, the main bulk of them is right beside his armpit and then they kind of flatten out at the bottom. He has resorted to doing lots of heavy decline, but they just dont seem to even out. I assume it just has something to do with his body and the way his pecs are. He also thinks its normal and that mine that are more defined on the bottom are weird. its an ongoing saga between us haha

[cog]

actually, my roommate has very topheavy pecs. Its hilarious and I always make fun of him for it, the main bulk of them is right beside his armpit and then they kind of flatten out at the bottom. He has resorted to doing lots of heavy decline, but they just dont seem to even out. I assume it just has something to do with his body and the way his pecs are. He also thinks its normal and that mine that are more defined on the bottom are weird. its an ongoing saga between us haha

A lot of people would like to know how your buddy managed to get stuck with his top heavy pecs,sdonnell.

[sdonnell]

haha as would I. We work out together and do the exact same routine, although he is taller and has about 30 pounds on me so does heavier weights. It must just be how his body forms the muscle? I know not another explanation

[Drummer]

genetics mostly