Protein hydrolysates are overpriced and offer no benefit compared to whey protein

[5151]

I posted this on another "bigger" board but thought some of you guys that don't travel there might be interested in it:


With hydrolyzed milk proteins being the popular supplement of late and appearing in more products I figured the research must be looking more and more promising and not a bunch of companies playing follow the leader. After going through the descriptions of some of the products available I saw their benefits are based around two general claims:

1. Hydrolyzed protein is pre-digested and therefore enters the blood stream more quickly than whey.
2. There exists a correlation between the speed of amino acids appearing in the blood stream and the rate of muscle growth.

So being the pubmed ninja I am I decided to look at the legitimacy of these claims. Hopefully this can spur some discussion.

Claim 1
As far as I can tell the notion that the amino acids from hydrolyzed whey protein reach the blood stream faster and in higher concentrations than those from intact whey protein stems from a study published in 1991 by Moughan et al (1). This study was performed on piglets and showed quicker gastric emptying and intestinal absorption of amino acids of bovine-milk hydrolysate versus intact bovine-milk. Obviously this has little application to humans because it was done on piglets and the confounding variable of intact milk protein being used rather than just whey.
Fast forward to 2004 when Calbet and Holst publish a study comparing the gastric emptying times and increase in plasma amino acid concentrations of whey and casein compared to their hydrolysate counterparts (2). The strengths of this study include the use of humans and the inclusion of the extent of hydrolysis (94% of the whey was in the form of oligopeptide with an average chain length of 3.7, 93% of the casein was in the form of oligopeptide with an average chain length of 3.8). This is important because at least two products available on the market highlight their chain length as a benefit: one boasts an average chain length of 4 and the other boasts di- and tri- peptides. The results of the study showed no significant differences between whey protein and the two hydrolysates in the rate of plasma increases in BCAA, EAA and TAA(total amino acids). All four solutions had similar gastric emptying times.
A more recent study showed similar results of hydrolysis not affecting the estimated rate of gastric emptying when compared to whey isolate (3). The whey hydrolysate used in that particular study was Optipep80 with a 30% degree of hydrolysis and did not specify the di- and tri- peptide amount or average chain length. Interestingly there was no difference in the rate of BCAAs appearing in the plasma in the first 40 minutes and the whey isolate outperformed the whey hydrolysate in BCAA mean peak concentration, area under the curve and maximum plasma concentration. The only other amino acid observed was phenylalanine and a significant difference was seen between the 30 and 60 minute mark though within the fist 15 minutes no difference was seen.
The claim of hydrolyzed protein entering the blood stream faster than whey protein is without basis.

Claim 2
This claim seems to be based on a study by Cribb et al. that compared hydrolyzed whey isolate to casein?s impact on body composition(among other things but for the scope of this post I just planned on discussing body composition) (4). The study used recreational bodybuilders that consumed 1.5g/kg of either hydrolyzed whey or casein during a 12-week Max-OT resistance training program in addition to their habitual daily diet. The results were a statistically significant increase in lean body mass and decrease in fat mass in the hydrolyzed whey group compared to the casein group.
This obviously means chronic supplementation of whey hydrolysate will result in more muscle and less fat correct? One issue is that the previous section showed there was no difference in speed of amino acids appearing in the blood stream compared to intact whey protein therefore it can be speculated a much cheaper intact whey protein could have been substituted with similar results. This speculation is supported by a study done by Dangin et al. where a single meal of casein was compared to several small feedings of whey to mimic slow digestion (5). Despite equal grams of protein the whey outperformed the casein in postprandial leucine balance indicating it was the amino acid component or some other property inherent to whey that provided the benefit and not speed of digestion as a single meal of whey compared to casein has been shown to be inferior for postprandial leucine balance (5,6).
This sort of leads to a discussion of whether fast or slow proteins are superior for muscle growth in general and that?s not what I wanted to discuss with this post but rather I just wanted to keep it specific the WPH.

If I've missed the point completely or am grossly ignorant of some huge body of research just let me know.

References
1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2051276?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
2. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j812c0cabk3t2dm0/
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18679613
4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17240782
5. http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/280/2/E340
6. http://www.pnas.org/content/94/26/14930.full?ck=nck
7. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/10/3228S

[JonnyO]

I doubt many companies are putting it into their products because of it's price. Another thing to note even though its pricier, you dont need to use nearly as much as you would with a whey.

The difference may be only a few percent who knows but I like the convenience of it. I like its solubility as it mixes clear with water and a spoon, unlike any whey's. It doesnt fill me up or bloat me like some wheys tend to do. I dont need to buy bcaa's. It's easy on the stomach, doesnt froth or clump up or expand. I can take it pre/during/post workouts easily without having to drink so much volume as the tren is all these pre/dur/post shakes with waxy, bcaas, creatine, glut, etc, etc..those are big drinks and bloat the hell out of me. Its great for dieting as well if your on a low to no carb diet you can take this after your workout and by the time you get home you can prep and eat your next meal instead of waiting like I would if I had a whey shake.

These here are a few reasons I prefer the product, To each their own and you never know until you try it for yourself....no matter how many studies you have read and how much time you've put into research, personal experience means more to me in the end.

[rickyboy36]

Bro..there is nothing conclusive with this research.Well actually there is;Crilb et Al did show there was significant difference in muscle and fat loss.Why?cause they actually used bodybuilders compared to the other 2.The Dangun study does not state they used bodybuilders(from what i read).And even if the did..did they use ADVANCED bodybuilders???Newbies will respond well to ANYTHING bro where as advances athletes need that special advantage.I would agree like in the rat study that any protein source would act the same,but Crilb proved that wrong.There are times of the day where you need a fast acting whey to get you out of catabolism(morning,PWO) and to promote healing and growth during that 1 hour opportunity window after your workout.The douglas study didnt say anyting about bodybuilders or workouts..

[5151]

I doubt many companies are putting it into their products because of it's price. Another thing to note even though its pricier, you dont need to use nearly as much as you would with a whey.

The difference may be only a few percent who knows but I like the convenience of it. I like its solubility as it mixes clear with water and a spoon, unlike any whey's. It doesnt fill me up or bloat me like some wheys tend to do. I dont need to buy bcaa's. It's easy on the stomach, doesnt froth or clump up or expand. I can take it pre/during/post workouts easily without having to drink so much volume as the tren is all these pre/dur/post shakes with waxy, bcaas, creatine, glut, etc, etc..those are big drinks and bloat the hell out of me. Its great for dieting as well if your on a low to no carb diet you can take this after your workout and by the time you get home you can prep and eat your next meal instead of waiting like I would if I had a whey shake.

These here are a few reasons I prefer the product, To each their own and you never know until you try it for yourself....no matter how many studies you have read and how much time you've put into research, personal experience means more to me in the end.

Most companies probably include it because of the inflated margins. I highly doubt the adding of a proteolytic enzyme is so expensive it can justify 5-10x price increases. When you say you don't need to use as much I have to disagree. Your body needs a certain amount of protein and even if it's digested quicker(which it isn't) it doesn't make more aminos available. If you have issues with bloating etc I urge you to take an equal amount of protein from a high quality isolate and tell me if you notice a difference. I'm not saying a 30g from whey isolate and 5g of whey hydro I'm saying 5g of whey hydro and 5g of whey isolate.

Also I remember us discussing this earlier and you mentioned you had part of your digestive tract removed? The research looking at patients with similar conditions found that nitrogen retention was still sufficient even with people with seriously reduced digestive tracts. However I will concede that just because nitrogen retention was the same it doesn't mean it is being absorbed as quickly. So in your case, which you have to admit is more of an exception, I could see a case for a pre digested whey hydrolysate.


Bro..there is nothing conclusive with this research.Well actually there is;Crilb et Al did show there was significant difference in muscle and fat loss.Why?cause they actually used bodybuilders compared to the other 2.The Dangun study does not state they used bodybuilders(from what i read).And even if the did..did they use ADVANCED bodybuilders???Newbies will respond well to ANYTHING bro where as advances athletes need that special advantage.I would agree like in the rat study that any protein source would act the same,but Crilb proved that wrong.There are times of the day where you need a fast acting whey to get you out of catabolism(morning,PWO) and to promote healing and growth during that 1 hour opportunity window after your workout.The douglas study didnt say anyting about bodybuilders or workouts..

I agree the Cribb study looked promising but as Cribb readily admits the major caveat was comparing two proteins with different amino acid profiles. Neither the Cribb or the Dangin study were comparing proteins in the post-workout window. What I'm stating is there is no evidence to whey hydrolysate being superior over whey isolate. If you want to interpret the Cribb study as supplementing whey throughout the day versus casein I think that's a fair assumption.

I entirely agree with you that there are times when a faster digesting protein may be of benefit but as I've proved above whey isolate digests just as quickly as whey hydrolysate so there is no need for the exceptionally more expensive product.

Rickyboy I haven't seen you around here much before glad there are some new people contributing to this section of the forum with analytic minds.

[JonnyO]

When you say you don't need to use as much I have to disagree. Your body needs a certain amount of protein and even if it's digested quicker(which it isn't) it doesn't make more aminos available. If you have issues with bloating etc I urge you to take an equal amount of protein from a high quality isolate and tell me if you notice a difference. I'm not saying a 30g from whey isolate and 5g of whey hydro I'm saying 5g of whey hydro and 5g of whey isolate.



Yes you do need a certain amount of protein but this isnt about net protein here. We would be taking pre/dur/post w/o and the amounts are sufficient at these times.

I think that with a whey some of the aminos and protein would be wasted in the process as to hydro this would not occur in the body it would be absorbed and delivered.

[5151]

Yes you do need a certain amount of protein but this isnt about net protein here. We would be taking pre/dur/post w/o and the amounts are sufficient at these times.

I think that with a whey some of the aminos and protein would be wasted in the process as to hydro this would not occur in the body it would be absorbed and delivered.

Cool. I wasn't sure which part you were talking about as the first part was about around the workout window and the second part was about supplementation throughout the the day.


That is the logical assumption because hydrolysis does not need to take place in the body with hydro. However logic and science don't necessarily go hand in hand. Both proteins hit the stomach and then advance to the small intestine where absorption actually takes place. It seems that hydrolysis is so rapid within in the stomach and the entrance of the gut that it doesn't matter. It was a good theory but it has been tested in three different trials(I'll post the abstract of the other one below) and it simply isn't true. I spent money on this horseshit as well.
A hypothesis only has merit if you are willing to reject it.



Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2008 May 8:1-11. [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Plasma amino acid response after ingestion of different whey protein fractions.
Farnfield MM, Trenerry C, Carey KA, Cameron-Smith D.

School of Exercise and Nutrition Sciences, Deakin University, Burwood, Victoria, Australia.

Background and objectives The digestion rate of proteins and subsequent absorption of amino acids can independently modulate protein metabolism. The objective of the present study was to examine the blood amino acid response to whey protein isolate (WPI), beta-lactoglobulin-enriched WPI, hydrolysed WPI and a flavour-identical control. Methods Eight healthy adults (four female, four male) were recruited (mean+/-standard error of the mean: age, 27.0+/-0.76 years; body mass index, 23.2+/-0.8 kg/cm(2)) and after an overnight fast consumed 500 ml of each drink, each containing 25g protein, in a cross-over design. Blood was taken at rest and then every 15 min for 2 h post ingestion. Results Ingesting the beta-lactoglobulin-enriched WPI drink resulted in significantly greater plasma leucine concentrations at 45-120 min and significantly greater branched-chain amino acid concentrations at 60-105 min post ingestion compared with hydrolysed WPI. No differences were observed between WPI and beta-lactoglobulin-enriched WPI, and all protein drinks resulted in elevated blood amino acids compared with flavour-identical control. Conclusions In conclusion, whole proteins resulted in a more rapid absorption of leucine and branched-chain amino acid into the blood compared with the hydrolysed molecular form of whey protein.

[JonnyO]

Thats a good study. I do use an Isolate for one of my meals (I'm dieting now :( ) Iso GOld and its always been good to me.

As for the hydrolysed WPI, is there a difference between this and the Peptopro product itself? I use a pure Peptopto powder.

[Ritch]

Whether it`s better or not dosen`t make a difference to me, because they are so damn expensive and won`t be using them anytime soon.

[Gettin'r'round]

Do you really think all of this means anything when it comes to putting on muscle? Train hard, eat right, and get lot's of sleep.

Would anyone here say I didn't put on 2lbs of muscle because I used casein instead of whey?

[rickyboy36]

Do you really think all of this means anything when it comes to putting on muscle? Train hard, eat right, and get lot's of sleep.

Would anyone here say I didn't put on 2lbs of muscle because I used casein instead of whey?

Probabaly not.But i do think there comes a time when one becomes really advanced and needs to take advantage of every single opportunity.Muscle gains dont come that easy after a while.Someone who wants to compete and wants to put on that extra 1- 2lbs in year will have to resort to this type of fine tuning in my opinion.Add up all these SMALL things one does after 10 yrs of training..and the results will be bigger than you think!

[Ritch]

Would anyone here say I didn't put on 2lbs of muscle because I used casein instead of whey?

I also say this when people tell me that concentrate is crap and isolate is a must. The casein protein seems interesting however, but to me the cost just dosen`t justify the product yet.

[Ritch]

Probabaly not.But i do think there comes a time when one becomes really advanced and needs to take advantage of every single opportunity.Muscle gains dont come that easy after a while.Someone who wants to compete and wants to put on that extra 1- 2lbs in year will have to resort to this type of fine tuning in my opinion.Add up all these SMALL things one does after 10 yrs of training..and the results will be bigger than you think!

I still stand by what I say in my previous post, but there is some truth here as well. It`s just when something costs way more and delivers such a tiny difference is terms of results, is where I draw the line.

[rickyboy36]

I also say this when people tell me that concentrate is crap and isolate is a must. The casein protein seems interesting however, but to me the cost just dosen`t justify the product yet.

Yes,casein will give yo that long lasting delivery to your body when you are sleeping.But like Ritch says,its expensive.What one can do is add flax/olive oil to their whey and presto the long lasting effect will be the same(or just about).

[Ritch]

Yes,casein will give yo that long lasting delivery to your body when you are sleeping.But like Ritch says,its expensive.What one can do is add flax/olive oil to their whey and presto the long lasting effect will be the same(or just about).

And besides adding flax oil or even natural peanut butter is something you should be doing anyways. Plain protein by itself is a major waste is cutting or bulking.

[natenator]

Probabaly not.But i do think there comes a time when one becomes really advanced and needs to take advantage of every single opportunity.Muscle gains dont come that easy after a while.Someone who wants to compete and wants to put on that extra 1- 2lbs in year will have to resort to this type of fine tuning in my opinion.Add up all these SMALL things one does after 10 yrs of training..and the results will be bigger than you think!
There might be 1 or 2 people here that fall into the really advance category and 1 or 2 is being generous!