Anti-Catabolics

[ezturbo]

Ive been trying to do more research lately on anti-catabolism and albuterol and clenbuterol. From first hand experience what do people think? Using these in your PCT, is it effective? Or as some are under the impression, using these compounds in PCT will accelerate muscle loss. Anyone got some input?

Maybe running lipoex in PCT would be beneficial?

[L3]

why do u consider albuterol and clenbuterol anti catabolic?

[ezturbo]

why do u consider albuterol and clenbuterol anti catabolic?

Ive heard that numerous places. Numerous articles. But have also heard it has a reverse effect and actually accelerates muscle loss. Just clarifiying bro.

[Iwant2Grow]

it seems to be pretty common to consider clen & albuterol anti-catobolic because its rumored to reduce cortisol levels although i have no studies to back that up just what i have read on the net ....

turbo i have never tried clen or albuterol although i have been doing research on them for this summer ... be interesting to hear from some people who have some experience with it ...

good thread

[nitrous]

i believe there are researches that have proven it but i dont know of any off the top of my head.. and from what i recal it was on clenbuterol and not albuterol..

its not good for building muscle though because it dehydrates you.. but a good idea to run it in pct from what i understand

[O-Train]

Ive heard that numerous places. Numerous articles. But have also heard it has a reverse effect and actually accelerates muscle loss. Just clarifiying bro.

Maybe for a cow, probably not for a human. Or maybe that's just why they have anabolic properties in animals but not humans. Something about Beta 3 receptors (which we don't have). I can't remember exactly.

If anything I think both compounds probably promote catabolism (in muscle also).

[ezturbo]

Maybe for a cow, probably not for a human. Or maybe that's just why they have anabolic properties in animals but not humans. Something about Beta 3 receptors (which we don't have). I can't remember exactly.

If anything I think both compounds probably promote catabolism (in muscle also).

Beta 3 receptors. I gotta get some of those!
haha.. Though, the debate still seems open.

Your apparently in favor that they are bad for PCT?

[giannos]

Maybe for a cow, probably not for a human. Or maybe that's just why they have anabolic properties in animals but not humans. Something about Beta 3 receptors (which we don't have). I can't remember exactly.

If anything I think both compounds probably promote catabolism (in muscle also).

I also read this.. It seems ( clen ) to be anti catabolic in animals but not humans. I vote no no for PCT

[rickyboy36]

I think it depends on the amount you use.From what ive heard(sorry i have no studies for this)25-50 mgs PCT is fine.Anything above that will make you lose muscle.Even when juicing ive heard that 150mgs plus can make you catabolic

[hyperlite32]

It is fairly common for people to run clen during PCT. I have yet to read it wastes muscle while NOT on PCT, so why would it during PCT? Makes no sense. I would say if you can handle the sides clen is great to use ant anytime in your training. PCT or not. And yes, it does have mild anti-catabolic effects.

[Adonis13]

Is Clen anti-catabolic?

Controversy still remains as to the capacity of Clen to mediate muscle growth, because of a strong anabolic or a potent anti-catabolic action. If Clen is not anabolic in humans, is it at least anti-catabolic? The answer is yes and no. Let me explain: if you are eating normally, I doubt that Clen exerts any significant anti-catabolic action. In fact, Clen is probably more catabolic than anti-catabolic at high dosages. However, when you’re on a low calorie diet, things are very different, and Clen is then truly an anti-catabolic drug. It may sound paradoxical but it is not at all.

When on a restrictive diet, the main problem for our body is to use the fat from the adipose tissue as energy in order to make up for the caloric deficit. In bodybuilders, this pathway is very inefficient. We eat a high carb diet all year long, which means we train our body to selectively use carbs at the expense of fat. On a diet, our body has not been trained to use fat instead of carbs. It is still good at using carbs and bad at burning fat. So, instead of using fat as energy our body uses a second best source of energy: proteins. And where are those proteins coming from, from our muscles, which are perceived as a protein reserve while we are on a diet. Our muscles shrink while fat remains stuck.

This is where Clen comes in. Clen is able to help our body uses its own fat as energy instead of muscle proteins. The fat burning process is accelerated which mechanically spares our muscles mass. At the end of the diet, thanks to a quicker and more efficient fat usage, we end up leaner and bigger. Not bigger compared to what we were before the diet but bigger compared to what we would have been at the end of the same diet without the Clen. It depends on the length and the severity of the diet, but Clen can make a difference of several kilograms, which is remarkable. Growth Hormone is popular before a competition for the very same reason: it renders the diet both easier and far more effective, preventing excessive muscle shrinkage. For those who still insist that it is possible to diet without sacrificing a significant amount of muscle mass, please take a long look at Dorian Yates' book "Blood and Guts". Before and after pictures are shown while he is on a diet. An expert eye will see that many pounds of pure beef were lost while the amount of fat he got rid of is limited. This is what happens when you get shredded, even if you’re the best in the world (Of course, by diet I don’t mean shedding five pounds before the holidays. I mean a real, shredding diet).

Please understand that this anti-catabolic action of Clen is indirect and will therefore not help you get bigger while you are NOT on a diet. This is why I say Clen can exert some anti-catabolic action or none at all.

Is Clen catabolic? Can this actually help us grow?

This may sound even stranger after what I just said but Clen can truly be a catabolic drug, too. At low dosage, it will go unnoticed. But past a certain amount (equivalent of 15-20 tablets of 20 mcg) chances are you are going to get sore by using Clen. Scientific research in humans demonstrates a potent catabolic effect of Clen as reflected by a rise of serum creatine kinase level. This means that Clen is attacking our muscle cells a bit like heavy training does.

Sound bad?

No!

Is it of any use for bodybuilders? Yes!

For "drug free" bodybuilders, it means that you have got to stay away from this high dosage of Clen. On the other hand, for steroid users, it is unfortunately a very interesting property. Ten years ago, I would not have made such a statement. Almost all the anabolic steroids were still available and one could choose the ones that suited him best. Saying that such a choice does not exist anymore would be an understatement. Prices and availability are inversely progressing. Testosterone is again the steroid of choice (because of a lack of choice). The main problem with testosterone is that after a while a user experiences more and more trouble getting sore while on it. Of course, it depends on the dosage and the capacity of the user to transform the male hormone into female hormones (aromatization).

You see, estrogens protect our muscles from damage. This is good in every sport except bodybuilding. Potent anti-aromatase drugs do exist but their prices prohibit their use. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) will exert an estrogen-like activity on muscle (and fat too) in many people, which is going to reduce their capacity for muscle growth while helping them to get fat.

Why do we want some muscle damage to occur because of training, simply, because our muscle cells are internally able to manufacture very potent growth factors such as IGF, FGF, Prostaglandins and probably GH too, in case of damage. The more steroids one uses, the higher this manufacturing capacity should be. Furthermore, steroids increase the muscle’s sensitivity to the anabolic actions of those growth factors. This is a shame, since most of those growth factors will only be released (and therefore become active) if the muscle membrane experiences some damage. Training acts like a robber who opens the vault where the growth factors are hidden. Because of the estrogens, this beneficial effect of training is attenuated. Clen can act like this robber to unleash the growth factors. How do we manage this?

Once all the growth factors are released, growth will take place, repairing the damage and inducing a hypertrophic response on top of this. On the other hand, the muscle capacities to reproduce extra amounts of growth factors will be impaired for a short while. Steroids will accelerate recovery from this shortage.

But it means that the high doses of Clen have to be used sporadically, I would say about once a week. It has to be coupled with a traumatic workout on a body part where you want to accelerate growth. You also need to rotate those body parts in order to make sure the restoration of the manufacturing capacities in one muscle is complete before triggering a new release. For example, one week you can train your back in a traumatic fashion (using heavy weights along with forced and negative reps in movements that end with a strong stretch). Next week, do the legs. The following week, it can be chest... The pain due to the soreness will be intense but it will be rewarded by rapid growth. Therefore, the catabolic actions of Clen can be used to trigger growth, but only in synergy with steroids. If you follow this procedure, make sure you use massive amounts of proteins and amino acids, especially BCAA and taurine. Clen will accelerate their destruction and you do not want to experience a shortage in either one.

[PJD]

great info....

[ezturbo]

Haha, the debate is getting heated.
We've got some nay-sayers, and some yay-sayers.

Im waiting for P or Gus to chime in :)

[ezturbo]

Is Clen anti-catabolic?

Controversy still remains as to the capacity of Clen to mediate muscle growth, because of a strong anabolic or a potent anti-catabolic action. If Clen is not anabolic in humans, is it at least anti-catabolic? The answer is yes and no. Let me explain: if you are eating normally, I doubt that Clen exerts any significant anti-catabolic action. In fact, Clen is probably more catabolic than anti-catabolic at high dosages. However, when you’re on a low calorie diet, things are very different, and Clen is then truly an anti-catabolic drug. It may sound paradoxical but it is not at all.

When on a restrictive diet, the main problem for our body is to use the fat from the adipose tissue as energy in order to make up for the caloric deficit. In bodybuilders, this pathway is very inefficient. We eat a high carb diet all year long, which means we train our body to selectively use carbs at the expense of fat. On a diet, our body has not been trained to use fat instead of carbs. It is still good at using carbs and bad at burning fat. So, instead of using fat as energy our body uses a second best source of energy: proteins. And where are those proteins coming from, from our muscles, which are perceived as a protein reserve while we are on a diet. Our muscles shrink while fat remains stuck.

This is where Clen comes in. Clen is able to help our body uses its own fat as energy instead of muscle proteins. The fat burning process is accelerated which mechanically spares our muscles mass. At the end of the diet, thanks to a quicker and more efficient fat usage, we end up leaner and bigger. Not bigger compared to what we were before the diet but bigger compared to what we would have been at the end of the same diet without the Clen. It depends on the length and the severity of the diet, but Clen can make a difference of several kilograms, which is remarkable. Growth Hormone is popular before a competition for the very same reason: it renders the diet both easier and far more effective, preventing excessive muscle shrinkage. For those who still insist that it is possible to diet without sacrificing a significant amount of muscle mass, please take a long look at Dorian Yates' book "Blood and Guts". Before and after pictures are shown while he is on a diet. An expert eye will see that many pounds of pure beef were lost while the amount of fat he got rid of is limited. This is what happens when you get shredded, even if you’re the best in the world (Of course, by diet I don’t mean shedding five pounds before the holidays. I mean a real, shredding diet).

Please understand that this anti-catabolic action of Clen is indirect and will therefore not help you get bigger while you are NOT on a diet. This is why I say Clen can exert some anti-catabolic action or none at all.

Is Clen catabolic? Can this actually help us grow?

This may sound even stranger after what I just said but Clen can truly be a catabolic drug, too. At low dosage, it will go unnoticed. But past a certain amount (equivalent of 15-20 tablets of 20 mcg) chances are you are going to get sore by using Clen. Scientific research in humans demonstrates a potent catabolic effect of Clen as reflected by a rise of serum creatine kinase level. This means that Clen is attacking our muscle cells a bit like heavy training does.

Sound bad?

No!

Is it of any use for bodybuilders? Yes!

For "drug free" bodybuilders, it means that you have got to stay away from this high dosage of Clen. On the other hand, for steroid users, it is unfortunately a very interesting property. Ten years ago, I would not have made such a statement. Almost all the anabolic steroids were still available and one could choose the ones that suited him best. Saying that such a choice does not exist anymore would be an understatement. Prices and availability are inversely progressing. Testosterone is again the steroid of choice (because of a lack of choice). The main problem with testosterone is that after a while a user experiences more and more trouble getting sore while on it. Of course, it depends on the dosage and the capacity of the user to transform the male hormone into female hormones (aromatization).

You see, estrogens protect our muscles from damage. This is good in every sport except bodybuilding. Potent anti-aromatase drugs do exist but their prices prohibit their use. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) will exert an estrogen-like activity on muscle (and fat too) in many people, which is going to reduce their capacity for muscle growth while helping them to get fat.

Why do we want some muscle damage to occur because of training, simply, because our muscle cells are internally able to manufacture very potent growth factors such as IGF, FGF, Prostaglandins and probably GH too, in case of damage. The more steroids one uses, the higher this manufacturing capacity should be. Furthermore, steroids increase the muscle’s sensitivity to the anabolic actions of those growth factors. This is a shame, since most of those growth factors will only be released (and therefore become active) if the muscle membrane experiences some damage. Training acts like a robber who opens the vault where the growth factors are hidden. Because of the estrogens, this beneficial effect of training is attenuated. Clen can act like this robber to unleash the growth factors. How do we manage this?

Once all the growth factors are released, growth will take place, repairing the damage and inducing a hypertrophic response on top of this. On the other hand, the muscle capacities to reproduce extra amounts of growth factors will be impaired for a short while. Steroids will accelerate recovery from this shortage.

But it means that the high doses of Clen have to be used sporadically, I would say about once a week. It has to be coupled with a traumatic workout on a body part where you want to accelerate growth. You also need to rotate those body parts in order to make sure the restoration of the manufacturing capacities in one muscle is complete before triggering a new release. For example, one week you can train your back in a traumatic fashion (using heavy weights along with forced and negative reps in movements that end with a strong stretch). Next week, do the legs. The following week, it can be chest... The pain due to the soreness will be intense but it will be rewarded by rapid growth. Therefore, the catabolic actions of Clen can be used to trigger growth, but only in synergy with steroids. If you follow this procedure, make sure you use massive amounts of proteins and amino acids, especially BCAA and taurine. Clen will accelerate their destruction and you do not want to experience a shortage in either one.


Wicked ****in info bro..

Rep points.

[ironwill]

rep me some while you are at it.......
i recvd this from a friend...

Let me just start by saying that this is the single most misunderstood compound in use for athletics and bodybuilding today. Most of the information out there is ½ truths and conjecture. Ok…having said that, I’m going to make an effort to dispel some myths and give everyone a better understanding of Clen.

First, lets plow quickly through some of the basics:

Clenbuterol (Clen) is a beta-2 agonist/antagonist bronchodialator. What this means, is that it stimulates your beta-2 receptors. And this in turn stimulates you (clen has stimulant effects which will make you feel….well…stimulated). All of this serves to increase your body temperature a bit, increase your basal metabolic rate, and decrease your appetite (Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1994 Jun;18(6):429-33.). Clen also can decrease insulin sensitivity (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Jul;283(1):E146-53.).

Clen is a very effective repartitioning agent, and this is what it’s most often used for. What this means is that it will increase your ratio of Fat Free Mass (FFM) to Fat Mass, by decreasing your Fat and possibly increasing your FFM (J Appl Physiol. 2001 Nov;91(5):2064-70). Want me to quantify that a bit? In one study, horses given a reasonable dose of clen (slightly over 1mcg/lb) and excercised for 20mins, 3x a week ( I suppose they were Mentzer disciples) had significant decreases in %fat (-17.6%) and fat mass (-19.5%) at week 2, which was similar to Clen given to horses who didn’t excretes; however, the exercised group had a different FFM response, which significantly increased (+4.4%) at week 6. Week 6! Clen and clen + exercise produce roughly the same results for the first 2 weeks! Remember the old 2 weeks-on/2weeks-off schedule? It’s officially dead and buried. If you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it’ll take more than 2weeks on (6 weeks apparently). And in fact, since clen alone is similar to clen + exercise for those first 2 weeks...why would you ever use a 2on/2off protocol? Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours…but you get the picture. 2on/2off? Ha ha...

Clen has a biphastic elimination, which means that it is technically reduced in your body in 2 different stages. This isn’t particularly important, as a recent study has shown that for most intents and purposes, clen concentrations in the body decline with a ½ life (approximately) equivalent to 7-9.2hours and again up to as much as 35 hours later(J Anal Toxicol. 2001 May-Jun;25(4):280-7. and J Vet Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Apr;27(2):71-7. and J Pharmacobiodyn. 1985 May;8(5):385-91. ). If you’re really interested, though, clen technically declines biphastically at 10 and then 36 hours. But really, in our little world, where we use ½ life to tell us when to take our next dose, who the hell is going to take clen, then a dose 10 hours later, then a dose 36 hours later. We’ll stick with the earlier 7-9 hour ½ life for dosing purposes, and take our clen every 3.5-4.5 hours that we’re awake, stopping early enough to still be able to get to bed. Clen can, in some people, cause insomnia (and as with all stimulants, can cause anxiety in some).

Clenbuterol can also cause a down-regulation in testicular androgen receptors and in pulmonary, cardiac and central nervous system beta-adrenergic receptors(J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2004 Apr;88(3-4):94-100.)…possibly making steroids less effective while you are on clen, but definitely making clen less effective as time goes on and you keep taking it. To counteract this, you can take some ketotifen or periactim every 3rd or 4th week that you remain on clen. Both of these are prescription anti-histimines, so they’ll make you drowsy (take before bedtime). Basically, the way both of these work is to reduce beta-2 receptor activity.

A lot of people claim that clen is quite anti-catabolic and/or anabolic. This hasn’t been confirmed in human studies (Ann Pharmacother. 1995 Jan;29(1):75-7.). And the doses given to the animals in these studies where clen is shown to be very anti catabolic or highly anabolic are so absurdly high that no human could ever take them (1mg/kg of bodyweight and higher). The best you can hope for is the very mild anabolic effects I cited earlier.

Oh yeah…I guess I should get around to the proper dosing of clen. My recommendations are the same for both men and women. You’ll need to take 20mcgs upon rising, and then repeat that same dose again later in the day, and then once again in that day (if you find you can tolerate the effects). So you’ll start with 20mcgs, and then repeat that dose 2 more times that same day if you can tolerate it (side effects will determine this…hand shaking, sweating, etc…classic stimulant sides). Then you can start increasing the dose gradually. Personally, I wouldn’t work my way up to more than 200mcg/day. 60-120mcg/day is an average dose.

Also, bear in mind that clen isn’t great for your heart, and can cause some issues there (enlargement of ventricles, etc…) but most studies showing clen to cause heart problems are with animals, and even though the dosing is similar to what humans take (in some studies) it’s important to remember that animals have more beta-2 receptors and they cause certain event chains that humans’ beta-2 receptors may not. Clen causes cardiac hypertrophy to some degree, in some cases. Again though, many studies showing more significant heart problems are with mg dosing. We humans take clen in mcg doses.

If we want to duplicate the “therapeutic” levels of clen in the more conservative studies, we’d be taking just over 1mcg/lb of bodyweight. I’d suggest a bit less, though.

Performance issues with clen also vary. Some studies show reduced exercise (cardiovascular) performance with clen (Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Dec;34(12):1976-85.), while some show that clen can alleviate exercise induced asthma (Respiration. 1987;51(3):205-13.)! Sometimes you feel like a nut…sometimes you don’t, I guess. What this means, to me, is that you’ll need to figure out how clen affects your performance individually.

Which brings me to the issue of cramps while on clen. I don’t get them. My friends don’t get them. Most of us are athletes who use clen during the season as well as the off season, and one of my friends even claims that it gives him more “wind” (cardiovascular stamina). Take on enough water every day and you should be fine. If you’re really concerned, you can take some extra minerals and taurine, since clen depletes taurine (Adv Exp Med Biol. 1996;403:233-45) as do most if not all beta-agonists. I don’t take anything more than my usual vitamins and minerals.

Well…there it is…pretty much all I know about clen. I hope this answers some questions and clears up some misconceptions.

Studies also state if you want to just stay on Clenbuterol, you can take 50mgs of Benadryl every night for a week (say...1 week per month), and you'll keep your beta-2 receptors fresh. Instead of coming off the clen, that is.
__________________