Shaping exercises?

[flapjack]

Is there any truth to this, or is it a myth? From my years in powerlifting I've found there are many "theories" on getting stronger. I have tried many of them and I found that some work and some not so much.

A buddy I often train with (former powerlifter and stongman) often heckles me for doing cable exercises. he says, "I don' need to do any shaping exercises..I stick the basics". Now, don't get me wrong, he is a strong mofo and big too.

I do the basic major 3... bench, squat and deadlift, but I also do the "bodybuilding type" excercises too. Is there any truth to the fact that there are "shaping" exercises, or is it just theory?

[HeavyD]

i would have to say that yes there are definetly, "shaping" exercises. but do they make you stronger... wouldn;t say so.

so what are you looking for to increase your bench or fully develope your chest?

i only did flat Bpress for years, and my lower chest is fairly wide, but last bit i have been focusing on inner/upper chest, my max bench has went down, but my chest looks bigger than befor

[O-Train]

I don't think there are. Your muscle is going to look the way it's going to look. Just like when people say they do certain exercises to add definition leading up to a show. That's BS too imo.

[natenator]

you cannot shape a muscle. You can only make it bigger. Genetics determines shape.

[ironwill]

you can change the size and number of cells in a muscle....you can only change shape via syntherol, etc....
The muscle will grow larger and basically keep the same shape....shape is more determined by muscle insertions, length of bellies etc..

[flapjack]

you cannot shape a muscle. You can only make it bigger. Genetics determines shape.


This was my thought to. I do feel that it is important to do more than the basic exercises though. I feel it will help stimulate the muscles to grow. It's kind of like cardio for me...if I do 30 min every day, eventually it stops producing results and I need to increase/derease it accordingly.

Change for your muscles is good.

Now if only I could change my buddy's mind...maybe he wouldn't be stuck in the rutt he is in. :P

[buildinthaskinnys]

While muscle shape is determined largely by genetics of course, there is a certain amount of shaping that can be done, what I am gathering from the posts here is one can do flatbench press and will develop the chest fully in every area upper/lower,side/inner, well I dont think any professional bodybuilder would agree with that you cannot shape a muscle. Although muscles have been likened to that of a rubber band this couldnt be farther from the truth, muscles are bundles of interwoven fibers, and the action of lifting a given weight is much like pulling on a chain, the links closest to the origin of tension move first and therefor are stressed first. Of course this all happens very fast inside a muscle, but my point is different exersizes effect different portions more.

[theboss]

you cannot shape a muscle. You can only make it bigger. Genetics determines shape.

:beer:tu

[rickyboy36]

you cannot shape a muscle. You can only make it bigger. Genetics determines shape.

agreed..

[HeavyD]

so you guys dont agree that doing incline presses will help with the upper part of the chest?

im not trying to beat a dead horse, but i would like to know if im wasting my time in the gym?

[natenator]

so you guys dont agree that doing incline presses will help with the upper part of the chest?
that's not shaping. That's growing.

Big difference.

[rickyboy36]

so you guys dont agree that doing incline presses will help with the upper part of the chest?

im not trying to beat a dead horse, but i would like to know if im wasting my time in the gym?

Yes cause the chest is comprised of two main muscle groups, the pectoralis major (upper chest) and the pectoralis minor (lower chest).So yes you can make make either one of them grow.What you cant do is make the upper middle grow..or the lower middle grow.When you hit THAT muscle(no matter where the stress is put) the whole muscle grows in accordance to your genetics and not that one spot you put stress on..

[O-Train]

Yes cause the chest is comprised of two main muscle groups, the pectoralis major (upper chest) and the pectoralis minor (lower chest).So yes you can make make either one of them grow.What you cant do is make the upper middle grow..or the lower middle grow.When you hit THAT muscle(no matter where the stress is put) the whole muscle grows in accordance to your genetics and not that one spot you put stress on..

Not quite. Pectoralis Major has a sternal (sternum) and clavicular (clavicle) attachment. Incline Bench works more the clavicular attachment and so builds more of the upper portion of the chest. Pec minor is a small muscle and probably isn't worth worrying about in the context of this discussion.

When I think of "shaping" I think of guys saying that certain exercises will give you a better peak to your bicep (which isn't exactly true). Although one exercise may work better for a particular person and so they build muscle more quickly the muscle will still look the same. When you look at muscles like pec major and latissimus dorsi than it becomes a matter of muscle fiber recruitment. Different exercises will hit a muscle in a different way and so growth can be targeted to particular areas. I guess this is also "shaping" but it isn't what I thought of when I read the original post.

So yes exercises can better recruit muscle fibers from specific areas of a muscle but no they won't make your muscles look different than if you used another exercise to achieve the same result. Make sense?

[Praetorian]

you cannot shape a muscle. You can only make it bigger. Genetics determines shape.

Bingo!! And if i hear another fuc*king idiot tell me hes lengthening his bis by doing preacher curls im gonna explode!
P

[rickyboy36]

Not quite. Pectoralis Major has a sternal (sternum) and clavicular (clavicle) attachment. Incline Bench works more the clavicular attachment and so builds more of the upper portion of the chest. Pec minor is a small muscle and probably isn't worth worrying about in the context of this discussion.

When I think of "shaping" I think of guys saying that certain exercises will give you a better peak to your bicep (which isn't exactly true). Although one exercise may work better for a particular person and so they build muscle more quickly the muscle will still look the same. When you look at muscles like pec major and latissimus dorsi than it becomes a matter of muscle fiber recruitment. Different exercises will hit a muscle in a different way and so growth can be targeted to particular areas. I guess this is also "shaping" but it isn't what I thought of when I read the original post.

So yes exercises can better recruit muscle fibers from specific areas of a muscle but no they won't make your muscles look different than if you used another exercise to achieve the same result. Make sense?

Im not sure i follow you here.Take the pec major for example:If I use cable flys and concentrate on the inner portion of it and put stress on both muscles you think i will grow more in that area?Cause if your saying you can,i disagree.Its either an ALL or NONE approach meaning the muscle either grows altogether,or it doesnt..If people could really do what i just said,dont you think there would be people going around with disproportionate muscles.Can you imagine some of the guys at my gym who have been training for 5 yrs and doing flys only how bad their chests would look?Unless you meant otherwise i dont agree you can shape..or make your muscle look differnet than from what your genetics gave you

[cog]

Not quite. Pectoralis Major has a sternal (sternum) and clavicular (clavicle) attachment. Incline Bench works more the clavicular attachment and so builds more of the upper portion of the chest. Pec minor is a small muscle and probably isn't worth worrying about in the context of this discussion.

When I think of "shaping" I think of guys saying that certain exercises will give you a better peak to your bicep (which isn't exactly true). Although one exercise may work better for a particular person and so they build muscle more quickly the muscle will still look the same. When you look at muscles like pec major and latissimus dorsi than it becomes a matter of muscle fiber recruitment. Different exercises will hit a muscle in a different way and so growth can be targeted to particular areas. I guess this is also "shaping" but it isn't what I thought of when I read the original post.

So yes exercises can better recruit muscle fibers from specific areas of a muscle but no they won't make your muscles look different than if you used another exercise to achieve the same result. Make sense?

I would disagree when it comes to biceps.A heavy regime of preachers would most definitely give you a different shape than just standing barbell curls.

[O-Train]

Im not sure i follow you here.Take the pec major for example:If I use cable flys and concentrate on the inner portion of it and put stress on both muscles you think i will grow more in that area?Cause if your saying you can,i disagree.Its either an ALL or NONE approach meaning the muscle either grows altogether,or it doesnt..If people could really do what i just said,dont you think there would be people going around with disproportionate muscles.Can you imagine some of the guys at my gym who have been training for 5 yrs and doing flys only how bad their chests would look?Unless you meant otherwise i dont agree you can shape..or make your muscle look differnet than from what your genetics gave you

For starters, you can't focus on inner (or outer) chest. That's just how anatomy works. I'll leave it at that. I think you need to read my post again. It may be a langauge issue.

[Praetorian]

I would disagree when it comes to biceps.A heavy regime of preachers would most definitely give you a different shape than just standing barbell curls.

No it wouldnt...you are not changing the insertion points so the shape will remain the same...maybe bigger or smaller but not a different shape.
P

[HeavyD]

that's not shaping. That's growing.

Big difference.

ok so if most of the growth from doing incline, is focused on the upper pec how is this not fully developing the chest?

and with a more developed chest, does it not look fuller, or increase its shape.


basically i think we need to define the term "shaping".

if buy shaping you mean fully developeing the chest from all angels, then yes.

but if you mean, developing new muscle tissue from a certain exercise, than no.(like the on post where he refered to preacher curls). this may target the growth, in a specic area.

am i way out to lunch....

[O-Train]

I would disagree when it comes to biceps.A heavy regime of preachers would most definitely give you a different shape than just standing barbell curls.

No, it may work the muscle more effectively but shape cannot be effected. I can't really explain it any better without going into more detail on skeletal muscle anatomy which I'd rather not do.

The muscle may look different but that's because of growth.

If you guys want to talk about what kind of stimulus better produces muscle fiber hypertrophy or splitting of muscle fibers or even the gradual and selective process by which muscle can change (within a limited degree) from slow twitch towards something more similar to fast twitch (or vice versa). Then we can talk about those things.

A muscle will grow the way it's going to grow. Nothing short of synthol or snapping a tendon whill change that.

[rickyboy36]

For starters, you can't focus on inner (or outer) chest. That's just how anatomy works. I'll leave it at that. I think you need to read my post again. It may be a langauge issue.

Bro..im agreeing here.If you read my post that what i said.But as you know..if you do a cable fly and squeeze yo feel a burn on the inner part wheres if you do a widegrip BB press you will feel it on the outer part.If you dont feel any differences then i dont know what to say.One may be a better exercise than the other and give you more growth but the fact remains you will grow equally everywhere in accordance to that exercise.Do you get me?

[rickyboy36]

You know what,i think we are saying the exact same thing..I just read another post you made and i agree with it totally

[O-Train]

This topic has too many problems with semantics. Cause I was just thinking that you can target one head of the bicep preferentially to the other. Just like you can use different exercises to target different heads of the triceps. Which some people will read as shaping and some will not. (Not what I thought of but I can see how it would be viewed as such). I can see myself getting frustrated with this so I'm not going to post in this thread anymore.

[HeavyD]

Different exercises will hit a muscle in a different way and so growth can be targeted to particular areas. I guess this is also "shaping" but it isn't what I thought of when I read the original post.

so is this a yes o hurley,

hey nevermind i just read your last post as i was posting

[flapjack]

What I meant was this...

By doingreverse curls, will you build long biceps like Sergio Oliva? or By doing concentration curls, will you build ultra peaked biceps like Robibe Robinson?

The obvious answer is no.

http://www.cuttingedgepersonaltraining.com/sergio_oliva.gif

http://www.musclenet.com/robinson.jpg

[natenator]

ok so if most of the growth from doing incline, is focused on the upper pec how is this not fully developing the chest?

and with a more developed chest, does it not look fuller, or increase its shape.


basically i think we need to define the term "shaping".

if buy shaping you mean fully developeing the chest from all angels, then yes.

but if you mean, developing new muscle tissue from a certain exercise, than no.(like the on post where he refered to preacher curls). this may target the growth, in a specic area.

am i way out to lunch....
you simply cannot change the shape of a muscle. It's just not possible without cosmetic enhancements (surgery or oil). The shape is the shape. All you can do is make the muscle itself is bigger.

[HeavyD]

you simply cannot change the shape of a muscle. It's just not possible without cosmetic enhancements (surgery or oil). The shape is the shape. All you can do is make the muscle itself is bigger.

yea i hear ya... the muscle your born with, is the muscle your born with.
there is **** all you can do to change that.

i was thinking of shaping, as in the example O hurley gave when he said that you can do different exercise to target different heads of the tri's.

i must not understand when you guys say "shaping" because i thought of doing strictly mass exercises for mass on the tri's, and then one could do exercises, to focus and bring out the horseshoe(long head).... if compared from before and after the overall shape would have changed....but its not actually changed only more developed.... i was thinking shaping in terms of visual difference...not changing the type of muscle...ie longer biceps.

[rickyboy36]

yea i hear ya... the muscle your born with, is the muscle your born with.
there is **** all you can do to change that.

i was thinking of shaping, as in the example O hurley gave when he said that you can do different exercise to target different heads of the tri's.

i must not understand when you guys say "shaping" because i thought of doing strictly mass exercises for mass on the tri's, and then one could do exercises, to focus and bring out the horseshoe(long head).... if compared from before and after the overall shape would have changed....but its not actually changed only more developed.... i was thinking shaping in terms of visual difference...not changing the type of muscle...ie longer biceps.

Bro,it seems like you cant--not even be able to target certain heads.I knew this was true,but wasnt sure anymore after hurley explained it last night

I posted this question at Pro muscle where all the top big dogs area and all of them came back including Dante himself(doggcrapp) telling me you cant target a specific head in a muscle.Its either an ALL OR NOTHING contraction.Even if some exercises you are using seem to target tha head much better,it doesnt matter cause they will all contract together anyways.So in the end,its all about genetics...

[HeavyD]

Bro,it seems like you cant--not even be able to target certain heads.I knew this was true,but wasnt sure anymore after hurley explained it last night

I posted this question at Pro muscle where all the top big dogs area and all of them came back including Dante himself(doggcrapp) telling me you cant target a specific head in a muscle.Its either an ALL OR NOTHING contraction.Even if some exercises you are using seem to target tha head much better,it doesnt matter cause they will all contract together anyways.So in the end,its all about genetics...

really..., and im not a pro, just trying to fully understand, for better results.

if that is the case, as to contraction on all or nothing, then it is a complete myth. but my question then is why do we do such a vast variety on different exercises.

i thought it was to fully develope a muscle from all angles, but as you stated this is not the case.

is it merely to change, due to the being bored with the same old routine?

[Ritch]

really..., and im not a pro, just trying to fully understand, for better results.

if that is the case, as to contraction on all or nothing, then it is a complete myth. but my question then is why do we do such a vast variety on different exercises.

i thought it was to fully develope a muscle from all angles, but as you stated this is not the case.

is it merely to change, due to the being bored with the same old routine?

I agree with what you said. Anyone who says you`ll get the same results doing flat bench than with inclines is insane. I don`t give a **** what Dante says...

[HeavyD]

I agree with what you said. Anyone who says you`ll get the same results doing flat bench than with inclines is insane. I don`t give a **** what Dante says...

thats what i thought... when someone was saying that from only one exercise, you can fully develope a muscle.

perfect example is chest, by this logic one could only do flat bench press and have a fully developed chest, including upper/lower/inner.

so if this is the case why do we do decline/incline/fly's/or cables?

but I obviously don't understand so like O hurley im giong to retir from this thread.

[rickyboy36]

I agree with what you said. Anyone who says you`ll get the same results doing flat bench than with inclines is insane. I don`t give a **** what Dante says...

Bro..as much as you dont give a shit about dante...you got to admit that dante knows his stuff.He has been training professionals for a while now and they keep coming back to him.And by the way,it wasnt only him who said this,but other big dogs as well

Some people do get better results with incline,not everyone though.Do a poll here and you will see the different responses people get.But in general people DO get better results with flat because they can go HEAVIER.Going heavy will make your muscle grow more.Plus...maybe the flat just targets that muscle better.

But i do understand your point.Ive tried leg extensions to bring my teardrop out more..and yes,i did feel it more there.But in reality i just made my whole leg bigger

[rickyboy36]

thats what i thought... when someone was saying that from only one exercise, you can fully develope a muscle.

perfect example is chest, by this logic one could only do flat bench press and have a fully developed chest, including upper/lower/inner.

so if this is the case why do we do decline/incline/fly's/or cables?

but I obviously don't understand so like O hurley im giong to retir from this thread.

Bro..its becasue you target different areas of your chest.It keeps your chest "occupied" so to speak.But it doesnt mean if you target a certain part that the rest of it doesnt get a beating as well.If this was the case then people would have perfect symetry within a muscle group.Anyways,i think we all have our own theories... which is ok... and therefore ill be doing like the rest of you and retiring from this thread as well:).

Cheers everyone

[ironwill]

I love Dante....:D this thread is funny....