First cycle! Winny, Test Prop, Deca.

[cuto85]

Hey guys! After alot of reading and researching I'm glad I found a good Canadian site that people seem to be avid on.

I'm 23 years old, almost 6'4.
As of new years '09 I weighed in at 280lbs, and was a fat mess. I'm working in the patch so I was pigging out on camp food, etc...

February I started Clen, RIGID dieting and 2hrs in the gym everyday.

I'm currently standing at 250lbs naked and LOVING how I'm starting to look.
I just got my hands on some winny and test prop, some deca as well. I was wondering if this sounds about right?

I'm still looking at losing another 10lbs of fat but I'd like to start shredding up and putting some more size on as well.

BIGGEST FEAR - I've had puffy nipples since I was a little kid, and I really don't want it to get worse. I've heard of about 5 or 6 good anti e's and was wondering if anyone could let me know which is the best and when / why I should take it.

Thanks alot guys, I hope to be frequent on here for a long time!

[icey_boi]

welcome to the board

[waderow]

keep losing fat before you get into the gear. you will balloon up like a stay puff marshmallow man if you are too chubby when you begin.

Get down to 12% body fat, and it seems you have a handle on losing weight, so should not be a problem for you.

You need to get a hold of some arimidex or aromasin for an an aromatase inhibitor, or of you want, you can just run a serm like nolvadex, however I would recommend the ai as it will also help with bloat. I am not a big deca guy, but you will need a prolactin antagonizer for possible prolactin sides form the nandrolone.

first cycle though,.,..... you should probably just run test

most importantly though, is you need to read up a bit on what you are doing.


you need to get your diet figured out

you need to understand what the gear is going to do to you

[ezturbo]

^ good shit waderow...

If you really wanna do some deca, run npp and prop for 8 weeks and see how it goes. If your planning on using decanoate ester, use a longer ester on your test. For your first cycle pinning can become overwhelming so I suggest cyp, jus for the tendency of giving less post injection pain. Remember, test is test is test. A long ester does the same shit, keep it simple and safe bro.

Not to be rude, but as a gauge for if you ready or not, If you don't know what I'm talking about, thats a good sign you got no business juicin.

[methadone]

so, are you actually lifting weigt bro? have you ever lifted weight? if so, for how long?
is the winny in pill or liquid form?

like mentioned before, your first cycle should really just be one compound....testosterone..so u can see how your body reacts to it on its own, then you can go from there.

I would of gone with test ethanate for the first time around bro...that's gonna be a lot of shots for you on your first time...like for the test alone, youre going to be taking 1 shot every other day, then 2 shots a week for the deca, and if the winny is injectable, thats 1 shot every day for that stuff...and its gonna hurt a lot...for the winny that is.

ah well, you got your stuff already it seems.....make sure u have some nolvadex on hand just in case, and as far as a AI, get some aromasin.

[natenator]

so, are you actually lifting weigt bro? have you ever lifted weight? if so, for how long?
is the winny in pill or liquid form?

Ummm????



February I started Clen, RIGID dieting and 2hrs in the gym everyday.

[methadone]

yeah ****

reading > me

scratch that question

[MAJIN VEGETA]

waderow has the right idea, lose more weight, get your body in the best shape you can naturaly before you strat to inhance it unnaturally. I also agree with waderow about deca, if you have fat on your body, deca can make things worse, developing of breast tissue is a huge problem from the estrogen progestogen sides. If you must use deca have some dostinex/cabergoline on hand as well as letrozole/femaral to deal with the possible breast growth issue. Lose the fat before possibly putting on more.
If your looking for the cut look once you get down in weight, avoid bulking compounds and stick with cutting cycles, as you will put on muscle and still lose fat. Winny, proviron, masteron, Anavar fat burners, ECA stacks, and of course testosterone, Problem with people with extra weight always using test is it can have many sides as well with estrogen progestogen and cause more of a bloated fat look, Keeping your diet in check will of course help this but, I am one of those guys that 100% disagrees that you have to have test in every cycle. Finaly make sure your post cycle is long and effective, make sure your 100% before you go back onto any compunds.

MAJIN VEGETA

MAJIN VEGETA

[natenator]

assuming he is in a caloric deficit, keeping carbs in check, doing cardio and training hard how is he going to be putting on fat with deca in his stack?

He's not stopping what he's currently doing (I don't think). He's just looking to recomp a bit with some LBM increase.

How is deca going to be a bad idea for him????

[cuto85]

Thanks for the advice so far guys!
Well I'm leaving the patch on Monday and I just told buddy to drop the Deca.

The Winny is injectable. Both products come from UGL's that are out of Western Canada I believe. I've seen pictures of one of them specifically on here. I'm not sure whether or not I'm allowed to drop names.

I've been working out on and off since I was 16 and my genetics are fantastic. I have a pre disposition to building EXCELLENT muscle... I come from eastern europe and growing up my parents would smack me upside the had if I had ever asked for Mcdonalds, or lunchables or any wack food for that matter. Everything was home cooked, beef, chicken, beef, chicken, beef, chicken, fish, fish, fish.

Right now I'm thinking I may go on another 3 week cycle of the Clen and then start the Winny and Test. I know it's alot of injections but no pain no gain right... I'm also having someone jab me because I'm still not at the point where I can jab myself. Don't laugh it's a serious phobia lol. When I say nothing scares me I mean it, I came from a war torn country and I've seen the worst of the worst. I've been stabbed, shot at etc... yet needles still ****ing irk me.

I'll give you guys my daily diet I've been adhering too.

5:30 AM - Muscle Milk, 2 Sunny Side up eggs, Oatmeal and raisin bran.

6:15 AM - Universal Animal Pak, 1 Grapefruit

9:30 AM - 6 egg whites, 1 multigrain bagel with 1 tablespoon of honey, 1 Orange, 1 Banana

12:00 PM - 4 egg whites, 1 Muscle Milk, 1 Diabetic Muffin, Assorted Fresh Veggies, 1 Banana, 1 Orange

3:00 PM - 4 egg whites, 1 BSN Syntha 6 shake, 1 diabetic muffin, Assorted fresh veggies, 1 banana, 1 orange

6:00 PM - N.0 EXPLODE

6:20 PM - BSN SYNTHA 6

7:00 PM - 1HR LIFTING, 30 Min Cardio, 30 Min Core

9:00 PM - 1 BSN Syntha 6 shake, 1 BSN Cell mass

TA DA

[MAJIN VEGETA]

Deca is bad at making fat worse, yes it has the abilty to store a lot of water and this can be a good thing, but also bad, at stretching fat cells, making them larger, the estrogen progestogen sides also make/give the appearance of more fat cells/estrogen yes the fat cells can make more of estrogen for your body, thus making your body a lesser anabolic fat buring muscle growing environment. Now you can get cut on deca, but % wise, peolple use it for bulking not cutting, and if not strict with your diet you will see a more bloated fat look. One pro that used deca to cut down was Tom Prince, but higher % of pros will not use deca because of the sides. Be lean first before getting involved in things that are just going to make it easier to hold weight/fat. Estrogen is good, yes but if he has fat on him he has enough estrogen stored in the fat, no real need to add more.

MAJIN VEGETA

[cuto85]

Also guys...

I've always hated the puffy nips and I DO NOT want it to get worse. I've been doing some reading and have seen that Letro and Nolva will/can reverse it?

You guys think some Arimidex or Aromasin while I'm on the gear is a good idea. Coupled with Nolva and Letro after comming off?

I'm really worried about gyno and/or my nipples getting worse, they're not hard or sore ever, just puffy. Some input on this would be wonderful guys.

[Dk]

Also guys...

I've always hated the puffy nips and I DO NOT want it to get worse. I've been doing some reading and have seen that Letro and Nolva will/can reverse it?

You guys think some Arimidex or Aromasin while I'm on the gear is a good idea. Coupled with Nolva and Letro after comming off?

I'm really worried about gyno and/or my nipples getting worse, they're not hard or sore ever, just puffy. Some input on this would be wonderful guys.

you sure its gyno or jsut fat? you said youve always been bigger, so it could just be fat nipples?

also, letro is a little extreme. with deca you might wanna have some dostinex on hand incase its prolactin buildup. cuz an AI wont help that sort of gyno. other then that, just arimidex or aromasin will be fine. no need for letro

[natenator]

Deca is bad at making fat worse, yes it has the abilty to store a lot of water and this can be a good thing, but also bad, at stretching fat cells, making them larger, the estrogen progestogen sides also make/give the appearance of more fat cells/estrogen yes the fat cells can make more of estrogen for your body, thus making your body a lesser anabolic fat buring muscle growing environment. Now you can get cut on deca, but % wise, peolple use it for bulking not cutting, and if not strict with your diet you will see a more bloated fat look. One pro that used deca to cut down was Tom Prince, but higher % of pros will not use deca because of the sides. Be lean first before getting involved in things that are just going to make it easier to hold weight/fat. Estrogen is good, yes but if he has fat on him he has enough estrogen stored in the fat, no real need to add more.

MAJIN VEGETA
please post studies. I really don't trust broscience when I hear someone says X is good at making fat worse. Mcdonalds is good at making fat worse.

[MAJIN VEGETA]

Just google, I always do :D there are many links, about estrogen progestrogen causing fat, specifically adipose fat cells.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Belly-Fat-and-Estrogen---Is-there-a-Link?...Yes&id=284186

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catdeca.htm

it does convert to a particularly powerful form of estrogen,since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia.

Lots of info in there. there is so much info out there, just takes some time gathering it.


http://www.thinnertimesforum.com/post-op-gastric-bypass/32681-estrogen-stored-fat-cells-mood.html

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/estrogen_reason_why_women_store_fat_more_efficient ly_men

there are so many links out there, many deal with women, but when you take high doses of gear, estrogenic/progesteronic gear your risk of stubburn fat goes up like a woman.

the studies are out there, just takes time looking for them.

MAJIN VEGETA

[natenator]

Just google, I always do :D there are many links, about estrogen progestrogen causing fat, specifically adipose fat cells.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Belly-Fat-and-Estrogen---Is-there-a-Link?...Yes&id=284186

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catdeca.htm

it does convert to a particularly powerful form of estrogen,since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia.

Lots of info in there. there is so much info out there, just takes some time gathering it.


http://www.thinnertimesforum.com/post-op-gastric-bypass/32681-estrogen-stored-fat-cells-mood.html

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/estrogen_reason_why_women_store_fat_more_efficient ly_men

there are so many links out there, many deal with women, but when you take high doses of gear, estrogenic/progesteronic gear your risk of stubburn fat goes up like a woman.

the studies are out there, just takes time looking for them.

MAJIN VEGETA
I';m not saying it is an ideal drug for dieting )obviously) but diet decides whether a person can cut up or not - not the compound(s) of choice.

As I said, calorie deficit, cardio, weights, AAS, clen... throw in an AI (or progesterone inhibitor) and he shouldn't have many issues recomping with some LMB increases and fat loss.

perhaps my thought process if flawed though?

[MAJIN VEGETA]

natenator, everything you just said sounds good to me.

In my earlyer post I listed off some compounds I felt would give him a better result, with cutting, its true you can cut on anything really, and very true diet comes into play first and foremost and truly he shouldnt need anything including clen to get cut, just hard work. But if your going to use, might as well use compounds that may work better, may. :D
Its all on him, and how hard hes willing to work for his goals.

MAJIN VEGETA

[tex]

npp melts fat off of me and its nandrolone......wtf is up with that......nandrolone is known for producing solid gains.....if he eats clean he should be fine......

[BritishColumbian]

Bottom Line, I honestly believe a test only cycle would be best for you. But thats just my opinion. I am on my 2nd cycle of test only and lovin the gains and lowering bf%!

[tex]

i agree with test only 1st cycle but i think nandy gets a bad rap from the eq lovin crowd....

[MAJIN VEGETA]

everyone needs to remember the difference between fast and slow esters, fast = most cases less water weight less weight gain less stubburn estrongenic/progestogenic sides, but the risks are still there, he wants to burn fat, I mentioned fast acting esters with less fat/gyno risks occurring.
As for test sure he could do that as well, but why use a long ester for most people when wanting to cut they will use a short ester test prop, I mention hormones that will have almost no issues with estrongenic/progestogenic sides. I am not in any way saying deca/npp is bad, just listing off compounds that will have more of a fat buring effect and less gaining Winny, proviron, masteron, Anavar fat burners, ECA stacks, t-bol. Npp/tren acetate even though there progesterone compounds they both have had good results with stripping fat, but also causeing higher estrongenic/progestogenic sides.

It comes down to diet.

MAJIN VEGETA

[DFA_DFA]

puffy nips proly isnt gyno related but just where fat is stored. I got the same thing always have.. im going to see how much BF I can lose before summer and see how it works out..but ya lower pecs and lower abs is the only place I hold fat its annoying as hell and gives me puffy nips

[MAJIN VEGETA]

Many guys have stubburn fat in certain locations, always recommended to try your hardest to strip that fat off of you, as adding bulking compounds most likely will make it worse. But when you have fat in specifically the breast area, you are more prone to estrongenic/progestogenic receptors latching onto that fat, making things worse.

MAJIN VEGETA

[HoliTheCat]

Hey guys! After alot of reading and researching I'm glad I found a good Canadian site that people seem to be avid on.

I'm 23 years old, almost 6'4.
As of new years '09 I weighed in at 280lbs, and was a fat mess. I'm working in the patch so I was pigging out on camp food, etc...

February I started Clen, RIGID dieting and 2hrs in the gym everyday.

I'm currently standing at 250lbs naked and LOVING how I'm starting to look.
I just got my hands on some winny and test prop, some deca as well. I was wondering if this sounds about right?

I'm still looking at losing another 10lbs of fat but I'd like to start shredding up and putting some more size on as well.

BIGGEST FEAR - I've had puffy nipples since I was a little kid, and I really don't want it to get worse. I've heard of about 5 or 6 good anti e's and was wondering if anyone could let me know which is the best and when / why I should take it.

Thanks alot guys, I hope to be frequent on here for a long time!

Hey bro, i'm sure you got some good advice from the rest of the guys here.

Just to chime in - I would personally recommend staying away from deca. and forever too. not a drug i would recommend using unless you are planning on going pro, etc. Other aas are jsut as good (imo) and won't stay in your system for 18months (or so). I feel that deca is just too risky and might even permanently shut you down - some guys try it once and are never the same after it...

keep that in mind.

[ezturbo]

puffy nips proly isnt gyno related but just where fat is stored. I got the same thing always have.. im going to see how much BF I can lose before summer and see how it works out..but ya lower pecs and lower abs is the only place I hold fat its annoying as hell and gives me puffy nips

Join the club. I love it when I'm cold, my body looks rock hard, then I'm warm, puffy nipples and a small belly. Woohoo.

[Kilburn]

why prop?

youre running a short ester with a long, imo it's stupid and if it's your first time you arnt going to wanna pin cushion yourself with prop.

i would use test e or test c, keeps things simple with the deca.

if youre going to do short ester with deca you should use NPP instead.

[cuto85]

Thanks for the post Kilburn

I was thinking of doing the winny at 50mg EOD and the test prop E3rdD? Like I said this is my first cycle and I've read tonnes of variations, so I greatly appreciate any input whatsoever.

I've heard that Winny injections hurt like a ****, is this so bad that I won't be able to sit down or perform my job? I'm climbing ladders all day, 200 feet of vertical ladder up and down 10 times a day.

I've also heard of just drinking the winny?

So far from the responses I'm thinking of running the test alone first then the winny eod?

UPDATE I'm taking aromasin while on this cycle. thoughts?

[cuto85]

lol

If it means anything... I've been doing digging on the site and I see we are not to discuss UGL's.

Well I won't use a name but whenever people typed it, it comes out as 5 *'s.

Any objections?

I also have the option of getting Universal.
http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6620&highlight=universal&page=2

[gustavo77]

Too many drugs for a first cycle...test and mabe some t-bol or winny to finish it up is all you need..

[tex]

you are over-thinking this......its giving me a headache.......test only.....add in the winny the last 4 weeks ( overlap it with the test clearing your system) if you must.......take the aromasin only if needed.......thank you, please drive thru

[Toxic411]

What Tex said.

[cuto85]

Hey guys!

Thanks a tonne for all the replies, it means alot.

I've decided that the coming Monday I'm starting my Test Cip, 2 x 10ml's EOD.

3 Weeks in I'm starting the Winny, I grabbed the bottle today and it had been sitting for like 5 weeks untouched and it looks like it had settled some. Grainy kind of, I gently shook it up a bit and it looks back to being like milk again. All thourough, is this normal?

I'll make sure to get some footage of my possibly fainting after my first jab. LOL thanks guys.

p.s don't worry i'll be ready to faint, lying down lol

[gustavo77]

I'll give you guys my daily diet I've been adhering too.

5:30 AM - Muscle Milk, 2 Sunny Side up eggs, Oatmeal and raisin bran.

6:15 AM - Universal Animal Pak, 1 Grapefruit

9:30 AM - 6 egg whites, 1 multigrain bagel with 1 tablespoon of honey, 1 Orange, 1 Banana

12:00 PM - 4 egg whites, 1 Muscle Milk, 1 Diabetic Muffin, Assorted Fresh Veggies, 1 Banana, 1 Orange

3:00 PM - 4 egg whites, 1 BSN Syntha 6 shake, 1 diabetic muffin, Assorted fresh veggies, 1 banana, 1 orange

6:00 PM - N.0 EXPLODE

6:20 PM - BSN SYNTHA 6

7:00 PM - 1HR LIFTING, 30 Min Cardio, 30 Min Core

9:00 PM - 1 BSN Syntha 6 shake, 1 BSN Cell mass

TA DA


You need to re-think your diet bro...too many shakes, not enough meat...you need some lean beef, chicken breast and fish in place of some of those shakes.

[MAJIN VEGETA]

20ml of test total at what 250mg/ml and how many bottles of winny?
Do the test 500mg a week for ten weeks and the winny at least 50mg a day for 30+ days, it would be better if you shot everyday.

I see you must have had a typo 2x10ml's EOD?

Explain the dosing and amounts of each test and winny please.

The winny is still good to go I am sure.

If you live near a costco you can join up and get nice deals on fish and chicken breast. Wal-mart now sells frozen chicken breast 2.5k for like 20$ only issue is to avoid salt from other products as the chicken has more then enough.

MAJIN VEGETA

[gustavo77]

Hey guys!

Thanks a tonne for all the replies, it means alot.

I've decided that the coming Monday I'm starting my Test Cip, 2 x 10ml's EOD.

3 Weeks in I'm starting the Winny, I grabbed the bottle today and it had been sitting for like 5 weeks untouched and it looks like it had settled some. Grainy kind of, I gently shook it up a bit and it looks back to being like milk again. All thourough, is this normal?

I'll make sure to get some footage of my possibly fainting after my first jab. LOL thanks guys.

p.s don't worry i'll be ready to faint, lying down lol

You do not need to run cyp eod..run it twice per week, ie mon/thurs. Your winny is fine...but save te winny for the last few weeks of the cycle...how many ml of winny do you have??

[gustavo77]

I almost forgot, what do you have lined up for PCT??

[rickyboy36]

Too many drugs for your first cycle indeed.First off i would go with 500mgs of Test E or C a week for 10-12 weeks along with some d-bol in the beginning to kick start things.Maybe 25mgs a day.Or like Gustav said some winny at the end before going on PCT

Plus even if you were advanced,that other cylce you proposed make little sense to me.First off why the prop with the deca?You need to run deca at least 10 weeks to see results from it cause it only kicks in 3-5 weeks after your first administartion.One is fast acting..the other slow acting.Second,if your taking prop and winny you dont want deca cause the later drys you up and the deca makes you retain water..unless of course you goal was not to dry up.

[Benny62]

I say stay away from the test and run a mild anabolic on its own like anavar or primo or both together and stick with you high endurance training and a high protien low carb diet. These drugs will help you retain what muscle you have also increase it a little too. They will help your workouts to lose the BF you need to without the sides you are concerned about...puffy nipples. You will most likely see a fat reduction in this area first, then your mid section and flanks.

Also they won't fully shut you down and you pct will be less aggressive. When you're happy with your body composition I would run the Test cycle with one anabolic to put on more size when you are leaner. I personally think if you ran just test right now you wouldn't get the results you are looking for. You sound like a big guy already and if you get leaner you will probably look bigger anyways. just my 2 cents.