insulin observation

[waderow]

too much carbs makes you go hypoglycemic too....

i think you get a natural response which then get amplified up due to the increasing humalog strength....


i am new to this stuff.... but one thing i noticed is do not over do the carbs either.... just as bad

did 10iu today for first time, and had two scoops of waxymaize (72g carbs) and i was fine. did not require much more.


any of you guys notice this?

[dinosaur]

If my information is correct, the intake of 'too many carbs' while using insulin will also result in storage of fat. I think we all know the process, but I believe it is accelerated, or enhanced while using insulin.

In my experience, I don't believe I have been close to feeling the effects of hyperglycemia. However, I have forgotten to eat and almost gone (or at least felt the beginning stages) hypoglycemic.

[ZeOne]

i think you get a natural response which then get amplified up due to the increasing humalog strength....

Maybe I am mis-interpreting your statement, but the fact is that the natural body response (or insulin sensitivity) actually decreases with exogenous insulin, and not the opposite. So your body produces less and less of the hormone in the presence of the synthesized one, which is the reason why injecting insulin when not having a condition that requires it can actually lead to diabetes as your pancreas will become lazy or worst, stop functioning all together. So here dosage and cycling are of the essence.


too much carbs makes you go hypoglycemic too....

Too much carbohydrates consumption will more often than not trigger (in a non diabteic person) exaggerated response of insulin release from the pancreas defined at the speed which itself is determined by the type of carbs consumed.

Indeed, if you look at any of the more extreme keto diets manuals, they do suggest consuming a large portion of carbs prior to cessation in order to stimulate greater endogenous insulin secretion with the premise that it will help shuttle nutrients in at a greater speed and get your body sooner in the ketosis state.

That said, you seldom get hypoglycaemia from over consumption of carbs. Your body have naturally a chemical pathway it deploys to prevent that state. In fact once your body detects abnormally low blood glucose levels, the thyroid triggers the pancrea's alpha cells to produce glucagon which in itself trigger the conversion and release of glucose in the blood stream. So if your liver is malfunctioning your body will be less efficient in dealing with the hypoglycemic state. So a constant hypo state is often a signal that there are deficiencies with the pancreas, the liver or the thyroid gland, be it organ induced deficiencies or drug induced deficiencies (ie drugs side effects).

What you do feel however with excess carbs consumption if your system is operating under normal parameters are some of the sided effects but in a much smoother (and less dangerous) fashion.

But in your case, since you are just starting with insulin I would highly recommend starting at a lower UIs and *monitoring* your blood levels with a multi-meter until you know exactly how your body reacts to lower blood glucose levels.

That way your are being safe and smart about the way you inject your slin. Never underestimate the ravaging harm insulin can do to your body...but in the hands of a responsible and avid person, it then becomes one formidable tool to have in your arsenal.



-Z-

[O-Train]

Great post, I didn't know your bodies natural production of insulin responded similar to testosterone in the presence of an exogenous source. I guess that makes sense, hormones, negative feedback loops etc...

You should stop by more often if you can ZeOne.

[waderow]

Maybe I am mis-interpreting your statement, but the fact is that the natural body response (or insulin sensitivity) actually decreases with exogenous insulin, and not the opposite. So your body produces less and less of the hormone in the presence of the synthesized one, which is the reason why injecting insulin when not having a condition that requires it can actually lead to diabetes as your pancreas will become lazy or worst, stop functioning all together. So here dosage and cycling are of the essence.


that goes against everything I have ever read... do you have a source? I would like to read up further about this.




But in your case, since you are just starting with insulin I would highly recommend starting at a lower UIs and *monitoring* your blood levels with a multi-meter until you know exactly how your body reacts to lower blood glucose levels.-Z-

I started low, and worked my way up to 10iu. When first starting i consumed more carbs for 5iu then i do for 10iu, and i would feel hypo after doing so. now, I have lowered the carbs, and i feel quite normal at 10iu. The point I was making is too many carbs post insulin jab can possibly lead to a hypoglycemic state, as I think what happens is the body senses too many carbs, then secrete insulin, but the humalog kicks in on an upwards ramp, overdosing the slin... Get what i am saying??

I read up on slin for over a year, so I didnt just start wacking it recklessly

[INked]

Kinda intrested in the source myself on that info.Using insulin on and off 10 yrs and know what works for me.

[ZeOne]

that goes against everything I have ever read... do you have a source? I would like to read up further about this.

What would make you think otherwise? It is simple really. The pancreas beta cells will stop secreting insulin in the presence of exogenous insulin in sufficient amounts. It is only logical.

The synthesized hormone will be seen by your body as a sufficient amount and no signal will be triggered to produce more. Also in the same process, with incorrect dosage you might overtax your pancreas's alpha cells (the glucagon producing cells) and lead to said cells exhaustion and failure.

Now responsible usage (and cycling) will not necessarily lead to diabetes but prolonged and abusive usage will most certainly do.


As far as references, I don't have much time right now so I picked the first 2 google found:

http://www.musclenet.com/getbulky/Info/Steroid_Info/insulin.html by Dr William Bird. Quote is :"Some experts also warn that used over the long-term, it could ironically, lead to the development of diabetes, as the body’s own ability to produce the hormone falters."

And another http://www.musclesbodybuilding.com/bodybuilding-supplements/the-killing-insulin-and-bodybuilding "There are strict warnings by health experts against long term use of the insulin as it could also lead to diabetes, due to loss of body’s natural capacity to produce hormone."


I don't have the time to search for more or higher quality references right now, but I invite you to give the process a bit more thought, and if you're still not convinced, then post your concerns and your point of view and I will come back later to address them.

[ZeOne]

Kinda intrested in the source myself on that info.Using insulin on and off 10 yrs and know what works for me.

Btw Inked, maybe you mis-read my post. I never sad that insulin doesn't work or that it doesn't have it's purpose in mass building. Quite the opposite in fact.

What we are discussing here is the immediate and long term body response to exogenous insulin, and prolonged abuse thereof.

But from the looks of it, you seem to be doing it responsibly (on and off statement).

I have written in another thread a few pages long post on insulin and it's usage in bodybuilding. See if you can locate it. It goes a bit more in details on the subject of this fascinating hormone.

[INked]

Btw Inked, maybe you mis-read my post. I never sad that insulin doesn't work or that it doesn't have it's purpose in mass building. Quite the opposite in fact.

What we are discussing here is the immediate and long term body response to exogenous insulin, and prolonged abuse thereof.

But from the looks of it, you seem to be doing it responsibly (on and off statement).

I have written in another thread a few pages long post on insulin and it's usage in bodybuilding. See if you can locate it. It goes a bit more in details on the subject of this fascinating hormone.Fascinating........indeed!

[ironwill]

What would make you think otherwise? It is simple really. The pancreas beta cells will stop secreting insulin in the presence of exogenous insulin in sufficient amounts. It is only logical.

The synthesized hormone will be seen by your body as a sufficient amount and no signal will be triggered to produce more. Also in the same process, with incorrect dosage you might overtax your pancreas's alpha cells (the glucagon producing cells) and lead to said cells exhaustion and failure.

Now responsible usage (and cycling) will not necessarily lead to diabetes but prolonged and abusive usage will most certainly do.


As far as references, I don't have much time right now so I picked the first 2 google found:

http://www.musclenet.com/getbulky/Info/Steroid_Info/insulin.html by Dr William Bird. Quote is :"Some experts also warn that used over the long-term, it could ironically, lead to the development of diabetes, as the body’s own ability to produce the hormone falters."

And another http://www.musclesbodybuilding.com/bodybuilding-supplements/the-killing-insulin-and-bodybuilding "There are strict warnings by health experts against long term use of the insulin as it could also lead to diabetes, due to loss of body’s natural capacity to produce hormone."


I don't have the time to search for more or higher quality references right now, but I invite you to give the process a bit more thought, and if you're still not convinced, then post your concerns and your point of view and I will come back later to address them.
okay, i would imagine you are meaning whacking slin 4-5 times per day in large doses, as slin will not make you a diabetic by taking 2-10 ius post workout only, which is what many people typically use post workout...or some use am with gh or what have you...Im not buying it....lol...

[waderow]

those articles linked do not say much, nor do they have any clinical backup or "proof" so to speak. Not saying you are wrong zeone, but I need more.

The one article has one line "Some experts also warn that used over the long-term, it could ironically, lead to the development of diabetes, as the body’s own ability to produce the hormone falters."

that doesnt actually mean anything. Thats like saying 3 dentists out of 5 say crest will prevent tooth decay, but far less strength behind it then the crest reference.


Comparing insulin to androgens or whatever I dont think is valid.

we all know why and how our HPTA is affected by steroids. That doesnt mean that the pancreas is affected the same way by 3-4 hours of insulin 3-4 times per week.
I agree and will cycle the insulin I am taking for a precaution, but I would venture to say cycling isn't necessary.

Someone here commented in the past weeks that with our high carb diets, perhaps occasional insulin supplementation would be better for our pancreas....this argument makes more sense to me, as relieving the stress on the pancreas post workout seems like a logical argument.

I will spend a little time googling around for an actual study with back up, and will post if i find anything that can confirm either theory...

[Spartan]

New to the board - I was a regular on another - but Since I'm Canadian - this is a much better fit -

question - do any of you use dextrose post workout (either while using insulin, or not)?
also, with detrose is it 1gram of dextrose = 1 gram of carbs? seems logical but i want to make sure

I have been using it post workout - but adding 80grams on top of the 50grams of protein - makes for a very sweet shake

[waderow]

dextrose, if pure, is 1 gram = 1gram sugars = 1 gram carbs

[Ritch]

The more I keep reading about slin the more I seem to realize that it`s not dangerous. I`m not sure if this is a good thing.

[bigdaddydrew123]

back to start im one that can go hypo just from pwo carbs,i have to get that second meal into me most times,when i did slin i was going hypo 4 to 5 hours later at less than 10 ius,just was a pain id eat carbs to bring me back then go hypo again repeat cycle...

[dinosaur]

The more I keep reading about slin the more I seem to realize that it`s not dangerous. I`m not sure if this is a good thing.

Be careful! It can be quite useful when used properly, but don't ever forget that it IS dangerous when used incorrectly. The thing is, you'd have to be stupid to use it incorrectly... or careless.

Don't want to see any CBB guys going comatose!

[JonnyO]

we all know why and how our HPTA is affected by steroids. That doesnt mean that the pancreas is affected the same way by 3-4 hours of insulin 3-4 times per week.
I agree and will cycle the insulin I am taking for a precaution, but I would venture to say cycling isn't necessary.

Someone here commented in the past weeks that with our high carb diets, perhaps occasional insulin supplementation would be better for our pancreas....this argument makes more sense to me, as relieving the stress on the pancreas post workout seems like a logical argument.
.

Some will react differently to Insulin than the next person and all I think Zeone is really trying to say is to be responsible with the use of Insulin because it CAN kill you! And he is correct on his statements about the pancreas and all. In laymens terms is will sense the exogeneous Insulin and possible over time, and I sure this is dose/abuse depandant, will shut down on you. Now is there any clinical studies as to how much that would be...I highly doubt it and dont think anyone is willing to try and find out. Which leads to the smart idea of cycling this hormone as I know i wouldnt want to be on meds like Metformin for life for this or worse full blown. Another thing to add is this hormone will age you as well. It's not really a healthy drug and the average gym rat shouldnt be playing with it. If your a high level BBer and need to break a plateau it can work well for this. I also use in carb loads, and here and there for an offseason protocol for advanced competitive BBers.

As for the high carb diets causing stress on the pancrease....check your source of carbs. I'd say a natural spike is a ton healthier than thinking your giving your pancreas a break with the use of exo slin...no offense but thats almost humorous. I am eating eat in excess of 6-800g carbs per day and have NEVER had any hypo issues. I keep my sugars low except with breakfast and Powo. The rest come from whole grain cereals, breads and oats.

[waderow]

As for the high carb diets causing stress on the pancrease....check your source of carbs. I'd say a natural spike is a ton healthier than thinking your giving your pancreas a break with the use of exo slin...no offense but thats almost humorous. I am eating eat in excess of 6-800g carbs per day and have NEVER had any hypo issues. I keep my sugars low except with breakfast and Powo. The rest come from whole grain cereals, breads and oats.

you obviously didnt understand my point....

if youre taking 6-800 g carbs daily, do you think your pancreas is having a vacay? or working overtime?

complex carbs are still broken down to glucose are they not?

this is why i said slin could offer a reprieve to an overworked bodybuilders pancreas. I dont think it is humorous at all. Makes sense actually.

Am I right? who knows, but thats the point of the thread...not to amuse. I was hoping for some science.

[ZeOne]

okay, i would imagine you are meaning whacking slin 4-5 times per day in large doses, as slin will not make you a diabetic by taking 2-10 ius post workout only, which is what many people typically use post workout...or some use am with gh or what have you...Im not buying it....lol...

Sorry if I wasn't clear Will. When I say "abusive" usage is a when one basically substitute one's natural glucose blood regulation with exogenous insulin, thus under working or completely halting one own's natural body production.

I said it in my previous two post on more than one occasion, it will take a sustained period of abuse to damage the pancreas.


if youre taking 6-800 g carbs daily, do you think your pancreas is having a vacay? or working overtime?

complex carbs are still broken down to glucose are they not?

Just to be clear, the pancreas has absolutely no role in processing ingested sugars.

Sugars are broken down to glucose in the guts chiefly via the carbohydrases enzyme found in the digestive system. Once released into the blood stream, glucose will travel to the pancreas's beta cells where it will flow into the inner plasma membrane (channels) and cause the release of insulin. Once released in blood stream insulin will then stimulate the glucose uptake (stored as glycogen) and amino acid metabolisation by soft skeletal muscle. Unfortunately, it will also stimulate glucose and tri-glyceride synthesis in adipose tissue. While this is a simplified overview of what happens once glucose reaches the pancreas beta cell 'detectors', the point remains the same.

Let's pause and think about the following for a few seconds:

If you take exogenous insulin prior to carbs breakdown in sufficient quantity to burn (per se) all the digested glucose resulting from carbohydrases synthesis of ingested sugars, you will be effectively short-circuiting the transport of glucose to the pancreas...what would happen with the release of your body's own insulin?

Nothing.

So to answer your question if youre taking 6-800 g carbs daily AND taking ample amounts of exogenous insulin, then yes, your pancreas (at least the beta cells) is on vacation.

So by mimicking insulin's action via exogenous insulin, you just "forcefully" shuttled broken down carbs into your organism and will seldom reach the pancreas to trigger any significant insulin release. And thus day after day, you're working your pancreas less and less which leads to organ becoming somewhat less efficient and lazier (under-working an organ is as bad as overworking it, in general) which could eventually lead to type II diabetes.

Now, don't forget. The dosage have to be significant as to cover the whole meal. Dosage in the rage of 5 to 10 ui will mostly NOT cover your typical semi rich carb dinner.

As far as studies, this is a good question. I am not sure you will be easily able to find studies documenting the effects of exogenous insulin on healthy individuals as it is of very little interest to the scientific community, unless it is a study targeted specifically towards body builders as they are the only known group to promote and preach this practice.

So most of the information I got is with meetings with several highly regarded endocrinologists and from personal research. As I am a type I Diabetic myself, I put a lot of man hours studying how the insulin affected my body, and more importantly why my organism depended on it so much to exist...and to actually put all the points on my side in order to live a bit more healthier and hopefully longer life.


-Z-

[waderow]

Well then wouldn't a ketosis diet:
day after day, you're working your pancreas less and less which leads to organ becoming somewhat less efficient and lazier (under-working an organ is as bad as overworking it, in general) which could eventually lead to type II diabetes

[JonnyO]

Well then wouldn't a ketosis diet:

Possibly, but the re-feed day would prevent this from happening. And also be the reason why alot of guys on keto diets maintain a flat look.

[ZeOne]

Well then wouldn't a ketosis diet:

Good point waderow. I am glad you're thinking this through.

JonnyO is right. Re-feed will counter balance that effect.

But don't forget that almost everything you ingest have carbs in it. Even the lowest indexed (GI) carb nutriments have traces of carbs in it that will make sure your body's natural insulin product is never completely halted.

You would still be surprised that "low carbs" consumption still releases a relatively significant amount of carbs. Burning carbs of a 100g of cucumber for example will still require around 3 to 4 UI of insulin. Protein as well, when broken down to amino acids, will trigger insulin release by the pancreas although to a lesser extent.

Another point concerning the keto diet is that it is NOT a carb deprived diet, it is a low carb diet (20 to 50g a day). If Keto was a total insulin inhibitor, you would be losing muscle mass like snow in mid July. Do not forget that insulin is the main transport mechanism of glucose (and amino acids) into soft muscle tissue and is a mildly anti-catabolic agent.

So a no carb, no protein diet (both micros that trigger insulin response) would not only be counter-productive and dangerous on the long run, it will probably damage the pancreas and other body regulating organisms.




-Z-

[jsv22]

Great thread guys, lots of complex issues here. Much of which is unknown.




Sugars are broken down to glucose in the guts chiefly via the carbohydrases enzyme found in the digestive system. Once released into the blood stream, glucose will travel to the pancreas's beta cells where it will flow into the inner plasma membrane (channels) and cause the release of insulin. Once released in blood stream insulin will then stimulate the glucose uptake (stored as glycogen) and amino acid metabolisation by soft skeletal muscle. Unfortunately, it will also stimulate glucose and tri-glyceride synthesis in adipose tissue. While this is a simplified overview of what happens once glucose reaches the pancreas beta cell 'detectors', the point remains the same.

The majority of insulin release is caused by the gut derived incretin hormones (glucose-like peptide-1 and glucagon-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide). Without this incretin release, ie. in response to intravenous glucose administration, there is a significant decrease in total insulin secreted from the pancreas. The effect has been coined the 'incretin effect' and is thought to be responsible for 50-70% of insulin secreted in response to oral carbohydrate intake. These hormones don't only cause insulin release, they also increase insulin biosynthesis, promote proliferation, regeneration, and inhibit apoptosis in the beta cells....basically 'maintaining' them.



Let's pause and think about the following for a few seconds:

If you take exogenous insulin prior to carbs breakdown in sufficient quantity to burn (per se) all the digested glucose resulting from carbohydrases synthesis of ingested sugars, you will be effectively short-circuiting the transport of glucose to the pancreas...what would happen with the release of your body's own insulin?

Nothing.

So to answer your question if youre taking 6-800 g carbs daily AND taking ample amounts of exogenous insulin, then yes, your pancreas (at least the beta cells) is on vacation.

So by mimicking insulin's action via exogenous insulin, you just "forcefully" shuttled broken down carbs into your organism and will seldom reach the pancreas to trigger any significant insulin release. And thus day after day, you're working your pancreas less and less which leads to organ becoming somewhat less efficient and lazier (under-working an organ is as bad as overworking it, in general) which could eventually lead to type II diabetes.


I agree that your body will not secrete endogenous insulin if you have injected exogenous insulin. However, i'm not so certain that this decreased 'stress' on your pancrease will cause a problem with normal insulin release to a carbohydrate feeding. Obviously this probably wouldn't be the case if someone was abusing insulin chronically. As i mentioned earlier, oral consumption of CHOs cause an incretin release from the intestines. Assuming a person is healthy, with exogenous insulin use, the incretin effect of 'maintaining' the beta cells would still be conserved (just IMO, i have no data to support this and i don't think there will be much. It's possible you may see research with high risk or newly diagnosed individuals with Type II diabetes using small amounts of insulin as a palliative method to delay/prevent the onset/progression of the disease). However, if the pancreas isn't releasing insulin this could cause some sort of a down regulation of the incretin effect to maintain the pancreas.

One could argue that the effect of large amounts of CHO without exogenous insulin could be more harmful to the pancreas if consumed without it. I think that as long as this type of insulin use is only done on occasion and not chronically abused, it is fairly safe for healthy people who exercise regularly. However, you could still run into problems if you have a family history of type 2 diabetes..

there are LOTS of unknowns when it comes to this type of stuff.

[ZeOne]

One could argue that the effect of large amounts of CHO without exogenous insulin could be more harmful to the pancreas if consumed without it. I think that as long as this type of insulin use is only done on occasion and not chronically abused, it is fairly safe for healthy people who exercise regularly. However, you could still run into problems if you have a family history of type 2 diabetes..

there are LOTS of unknowns when it comes to this type of stuff.

Great response jsv22. Over taxation is seldom better then under utilization. In fact most things extreme are, and by far, not any shred of a healthy practice.

I fully agree with the above statement and I caution people on chronicle insulin abuse and to exercise common sens when injecting the hormone as it can be as dangerous (in more than one way) as it can be a formidable ally in the quest for the ultimate mass builder.



-Z-

[ironwill]

Someone here commented in the past weeks that with our high carb diets, perhaps occasional insulin supplementation would be better for our pancreas....this argument makes more sense to me, as relieving the stress on the pancreas post workout seems like a logical argument.

I will spend a little time googling around for an actual study with back up, and will post if i find anything that can confirm either theory...

that was me that has said that, and it comes from Dave Palumbo, and a few others....Many others actually believe this to be a fact, and i absolutely agree, we arent meant to eat this much carbohydrates, meaning us as in many bodybuilders...

[ironwill]

Great response jsv22. Over taxation is seldom better then under utilization. In fact most things extreme are, and by far, not any shred of a healthy practice.

I fully agree with the above statement and I caution people on chronicle insulin abuse and to exercise common sens when injecting the hormone as it can be as dangerous (in more than one way) as it can be a formidable ally in the quest for the ultimate mass builder.



-Z-
best statement of the whole thread, including jsv22 comment...No matter if only using 2-3 ius of slin, you can get going down a road you dont want to be on, always research and be prepared, on only 3 ius i have had issues and needed carbs quick, it was after an extremely tough, long workout, i did my normal pwo protocal and everything was different, i needed sugars bad and yet i took 60 grams prior to slin...crazy...I believe it had something to do with the extra workload prior to pwo supplementation..
I really do believe it can help as a supplement sometimes at certain points in our diet....USE, not ABUSE..and educate yourself prior to even purchasing..

[dinosaur]

Thanks for all these posts (everyone). I am currently using slin and there is a lot of information here that I did not have.

Your knowledge is very useful and appreciated.