DHT based AAS question.

[#8]

If a DHT blocker is used DURING cycle and you are running DHT based compounds like Tren, Var, Winny etc. does the DHT blocker reduce or block the effective avenue in which makes these compounds work?

Im still somewhat confused on this subject. I would love to run some Test / Tren but I dont wanna go bald young. Would a DHT blocker render the Tren wasted?

I also just realized that a DHT blocker is a 5-AR blocker and blocks the conversion to DHT via that enzyme. Same question applies though.

Please help.

[Blitz-Test]

If a DHT blocker is used DURING cycle and you are running DHT based compounds like Tren, Var, Winny etc. does the DHT blocker reduce or block the effective avenue in which makes these compounds work?

Im still somewhat confused on this subject. I would love to run some Test / Tren but I dont wanna go bald young. Would a DHT blocker render the Tren wasted?

I also just realized that a DHT blocker is a 5-AR blocker and blocks the conversion to DHT via that enzyme. Same question applies though.

Please help.

tren is a progestin, not a dht...

I have heard dht blockers hinder gains off of drugs converting to DHT in the body such as test and boldenone, have never heard much on the hindering of gains by already dht compounds such as var, win, mast, primo, drol...

[fathead]

dht blocker like proscar wont help your hair against winny, mastern etc

[Kiem]

IF the drug is already DHT based then finasteride won't have any effect since its job is only to block the conversion to DHT (test to DHT).

If you're planning to take Test+Tren then the DHT blocker would only be effective for the Test not for the Tren. I don't know the pathway from which Tren causes hairloss.

[#8]

thanks boys. looks like just test is what ill be running then.

[JonnyO]

My hair will thin out a little bit when I run all those compounds like Mast/tren/winny/Proviron etc and I'll run them all at once as it would be contest time. But soon as I stop my hair will thicken back to normal. I also take proscar daily, have been for many years. I also use Nioxin shampoo both as preventative measures.

But I think you will be fine with a run of tren, just keep it mild, 400mg per week and no longer than 6 weeks a run and no more than twice a year you'll be fine bro.

[#8]

Tren Ace or Tren E?

[JonnyO]

both, Im on TE right now and no issues.

[Praetorian]

If a DHT blocker is used DURING cycle and you are running DHT based compounds like Tren, Var, Winny etc. does the DHT blocker reduce or block the effective avenue in which makes these compounds work?

Im still somewhat confused on this subject. I would love to run some Test / Tren but I dont wanna go bald young. Would a DHT blocker render the Tren wasted?

I also just realized that a DHT blocker is a 5-AR blocker and blocks the conversion to DHT via that enzyme. Same question applies though.

Please help.

People tend to get really confused about things when talking DHT derivatives. Winny, Materon, Primo etc are DHT derivatives which means they are synthesized from DHT. Once this process is complete the final product does not contain DHT nor does it convert to DHT thus it does not have DHT properties or functionality. The same holds true for the nandrolones...they are chemically unable to convert to DHT so there are no issues there. The testosterones are your main culprit as they readily convert to DHT...Propecia can help in thi sregard as it blocks the conversion process.
P

[ultrasafe]

People tend to get really confused about things when talking DHT derivatives. Winny, Materon, Primo etc are DHT derivatives which means they are synthesized from DHT. Once this process is complete the final product does not contain DHT nor does it convert to DHT thus it does not have DHT properties or functionality. The same holds true for the nandrolones...they are chemically unable to convert to DHT so there are no issues there. The testosterones are your main culprit as they readily convert to DHT...Propecia can help in thi sregard as it blocks the conversion process.
P


So Praetorian, I know I could find this with some research but once again can you explain why do these AAS cause hair and prostate issues since they don't have DHT properties or functionalities?? Thanks

[#8]

People tend to get really confused about things when talking DHT derivatives. Winny, Materon, Primo etc are DHT derivatives which means they are synthesized from DHT. Once this process is complete the final product does not contain DHT nor does it convert to DHT thus it does not have DHT properties or functionality. The same holds true for the nandrolones...they are chemically unable to convert to DHT so there are no issues there. The testosterones are your main culprit as they readily convert to DHT...Propecia can help in thi sregard as it blocks the conversion process.
P

so a DHT based steroid will offer less in terms of DHT side effects than one that converts to DHT such as test?

[Kiem]

Im confused also, bump!

[Solo59]

People tend to get really confused about things when talking DHT derivatives. Winny, Materon, Primo etc are DHT derivatives which means they are synthesized from DHT. Once this process is complete the final product does not contain DHT nor does it convert to DHT thus it does not have DHT properties or functionality. The same holds true for the nandrolones...they are chemically unable to convert to DHT so there are no issues there. The testosterones are your main culprit as they readily convert to DHT...Propecia can help in thi sregard as it blocks the conversion process.
P
Question is: Does Propecia or Proscar block the full effect of Test or Tren?

Solo

[Praetorian]

Question is: Does Propecia or Proscar block the full effect of Test or Tren?

Solo

What effect are you referring to...the anabolic affect or the conversion to DHT?
By the way tren doesnt convert to DHT...its a nandrolone derivative. If it is the conversion process then it would be dose dependant.
P

[Praetorian]

so a DHT based steroid will offer less in terms of DHT side effects than one that converts to DHT such as test?

Yes ....they are synthesized from DHT ....they are not DHT....they do not have the funtionality of DHT any longer.
P

[Blitz-Test]

Question is: Does Propecia or Proscar block the full effect of Test or Tren?

Solo

They will effect overall anabolic effects of testosterone base steroids (testosterone, boldenone, methandrostenolone..) because some of the anabolism comes from the DHT counterpart to these steroids, without the conversion you are not getting the anabolic effects of these DHT derivatives... DHT is known to be more anabolic than testosterone based on a even ratio

[#8]

some excellent feedback. thanks guys. :)

[Solo59]

Originally Posted by Solo59
Question is: Does Propecia or Proscar block the full effect of Test or Tren?

Solo


What effect are you referring to...the anabolic affect or the conversion to DHT?
By the way tren doesnt convert to DHT...its a nandrolone derivative. If it is the conversion process then it would be dose dependant.
P

Does Propecia or Proscar block some of the anabolic or androgenic effects of Testosterone? I guess you're indicating that it blocks none of the anabolic/androgenic effects of Tren.

Solo

[Solo59]

They will effect overall anabolic effects of testosterone base steroids (testosterone, boldenone, methandrostenolone..) because some of the anabolism comes from the DHT counterpart to these steroids, without the conversion you are not getting the anabolic effects of these DHT derivatives... DHT is known to be more anabolic than testosterone based on a even ratio

This does not sound good. My doc wants to put me and my fat prostate on Proscar®, but I do not want to quit gear, lifting, & the lifestyle.:(

Solo

[#8]

^^I dont think taking proscar is gonna render your gear useless, thats not what the guys are saying. it might diminish the effects slightly, but if it prevents the associated risks and side effects, its well worth it.

[Blitz-Test]

This does not sound good. My doc wants to put me and my fat prostate on Proscar®, but I do not want to quit gear, lifting, & the lifestyle.:(

Solo

its not the entire compound just most of the effects coming from DHT, it may not even be noticable to some people, however if ou are having prostate issues, your body most likely converts a whole lot of test to dht and thys you may react different

[fathead]

praetorian, please explain why tren/winny cause hair loss dramatically in many users...

[Blitz-Test]

praetorian, please explain why tren/winny cause hair loss dramatically in many users...

Two different pathways of attack

[Praetorian]

They will effect overall anabolic effects of testosterone base steroids (testosterone, boldenone, methandrostenolone..) because some of the anabolism comes from the DHT counterpart to these steroids, without the conversion you are not getting the anabolic effects of these DHT derivatives... DHT is known to be more anabolic than testosterone based on a even ratio

This is not true...although some ergogenic effects may be lossed it is not due to a lowered anabolic activity. As well these products are not DHT derivatives. Testosterone is the basis for all derivation of aas we currently have today.

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol.

P

[#8]

This is not true...although some ergogenic effects may be lossed it is not due to a lowered anabolic activity. As well these products are not DHT derivatives. Testosterone is the basis for all derivation of aas we currently have today.

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol.

P

so is this basically saying that using something like proscar is a good idea for those who are prone to side effects? it wont matter THAT much in terms of gains right?

[nitrous]

this really has me curious about DHT now.. i mean if it is all derived from testosterone why do so many materials say it is from DHT? and why do so many people say that DHT derived products also have DHT related properties

[Praetorian]

so is this basically saying that using something like proscar is a good idea for those who are prone to side effects? it wont matter THAT much in terms of gains right?

Taking proscar will block any DHT no matter which aas is used. Will your gains be hindered...it may be possible but IMO negligible. DHT derivatives like winstrol, primo etc do not cause more hair loss as people would have you believe. If you are susceptible to male pattern baldness then any androgen will tend to cause hair loss...it is inevitable. Guys who have lost their hair and blame it on aas is just silly....aas may have sped up the process but it was going to happen anyway.
P

[Praetorian]

this really has me curious about DHT now.. i mean if it is all derived from testosterone why do so many materials say it is from DHT? and why do so many people say that DHT derived products also have DHT related properties

Because much of the information you hear is misinformation based on anecdotal evidence and passed from person to person until it is a complete distortion of the truth. As well not many people understand biochemistry or do a significant amount or research to find out how these compounds actually work.
Where do you think the "tren is bad for your kidneys" issue came from....same place misinformed people who pass on this incorrect info as if it were gospel.
P

[Praetorian]

its not the entire compound just most of the effects coming from DHT, it may not even be noticable to some people, however if ou are having prostate issues, your body most likely converts a whole lot of test to dht and thys you may react different

It has been shown that DHT is not the main culprit when it comes to prostate issues. If that were true then teenage males who have the highest levels of DHT would all be having prostate issues but this is just not happening. The issue stems from an imbalance of hormones mainly testosterone and estrogen. In men as they age their endo test levels drop and estrogen levels thus increase. Estrogen sensitizes the prostate to DHT and in essence the trouble begins.
P

[#8]

very helpful feedback. that cleared up several more questions i had coming as well. i have to spread some more reps around, but ill get back to you Praetorian. thanks bro.

:)

[nitrous]

yeah Praetorian i have seen you on here and other boards as well i believe and always extremely informative... cbb is lucky to have you here

[Gettin'r'round]

FINALLY! I thought the whole worrying about winny/primo converting to DHT and taking dosintex for tren was bullshit. Just because something is derived from test/dht/nandrolones does not mean they will reverse themselves into the parent chemical.
To note: Taking proscar will increase test as what normally would have been turned into DHT will not be converted and left floating around. Be thankful your doc didn't put you on duasteride, the ultimate DHT blocker (acually DHT enzyme inhibitor). Kiss your sex drive goodbye. I tried some when my hair got a little too thin and I panicked. Wife wasn't happy at all.

I also found out later that her progesterone cream was getting on me somehow and that kills DHT too. I've never had limp dick problems but did when I was unknowingly getting dosed up on progesterone. Found out later when I did a saliva hormone test and HIGHLIGHTED in the prognosis section was the possiblity that I was coming into contact with someone using progesterone, man did she ever feel bad. I was just happy that she didn't think I wasn't interested in her anymore.

Pretorinan was right that test/dht are not the main culprits when it comes to prostate issues. I'm going to post some articles about this....

[Gettin'r'round]

This is part of the thread in the articles thread "Optimizing Testosterone Levels in Aging Men"


A common misconception among physicians is that testosterone administration adversely affects the normal prostate. This idea is not supported by the medical literature. A 2002 study indicates that testosterone is actually beneficial for the prostate gland in the vast majority of cases. In this study, researchers looked at multiple parameters, including prostate volume, prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels, and lower urinary tract symptoms in a group of men with low or low-normal testosterone levels.22 Of the 207 men studied, 187 responded favorably to testosterone treatment. These positive responders all showed improvement in almost every parameter measured: their prostate glands all decreased in size, PSA was lower, and urinary symptoms such as frequency, urgency, dribbling, and getting up at night to urinate all improved.

In a separate recent study that looked at a similar group of men, the authors observed that “No treatment-related change was observed in prostate histology, tissue biomarkers, gene expression, or cancer incidence or severity. Treatment-related changes in prostate volume, serum PSA, voiding symptoms, and urinary flow were minor.”23

[bigben]

^^I dont think taking proscar is gonna render your gear useless, thats not what the guys are saying. it might diminish the effects slightly, but if it prevents the associated risks and side effects, its well worth it.

I agree through personal experience. It doesn't make added testosterone useless. Test will still be very strongly anabolic despite using a dht blocker. I can't quantitate what difference it makes, if any.

[gustavo77]

It has been shown that DHT is not the main culprit when it comes to prostate issues. If that were true then teenage males who have the highest levels of DHT would all be having prostate issues but this is just not happening. The issue stems from an imbalance of hormones mainly testosterone and estrogen. In men as they age their endo test levels drop and estrogen levels thus increase. Estrogen sensitizes the prostate to DHT and in essence the trouble begins.
P

This is extremely valuable info...and could also explain why my prostate swelled when i went off my AI recently...

[#8]

Praetorian for Prime Minister? :)

[Praetorian]

Ahh maybe Don Cherry!
;o)
P

[fathead]

so praetorian, your suggesting that test+proscar shouldnt equal any less hairloss than winny or tren + proscar?

ive read a million times (and i know that doesnt make it true) that "winny/tren burns the hair right off my head"... your saying this is hogwash?

i run test+proscar and my hair is fine... ive never touched tren/winny for fear of hair loss (i have thinner hair)

pls chime in again

[giannos]

Tren will cause some massive hair loss in individuals no doubt, while others will not be bothered as much. Tren doesnt convert to DHT, but its potent enough by itself to cause hair loss. This is achieved by the increased androgen receptor stimulation in hair follicles, since Tren is a potent androgen. If your worried about it, use an anti-androgen like Spironolactone 5% topical cream, and Nizoral to a lesser extent to combat Tren hair loss..Finasteride is useless against tren..

[Praetorian]

Exactly what Giannos said...tren is a nandrolone derivative so it doesnt convert to DHT, neither does winstrol. However some individuals hair loss is not completely related to DHT but to high androgens because thet are predisposed to male patter baldness. Thus any strong androgen will undoubtedly cause some hair loss. Taking proscar with tren will not help you.
My question to you would be...why do you want to run tren or winny? Are you competing? If not then they are unnecessary as you can get great growth as well as extreme hardness on a simple test and deca/eq cycle.
P

[Blitz-Test]

Exactly what Giannos said...tren is a nandrolone derivative so it doesnt convert to DHT, neither does winstrol. However some individuals hair loss is not completely related to DHT but to high androgens because thet are predisposed to male patter baldness. Thus any strong androgen will undoubtedly cause some hair loss. Taking proscar with tren will not help you.
My question to you would be...why do you want to run tren or winny? Are you competing? If not then they are unnecessary as you can get great growth as well as extreme hardness on a simple test and deca/eq cycle.
P

Maybe winny, but if you have tried both tren and nandrolone, tren beats it hands down on solid lbm gains... no comparison... plus price of tren is great

[fathead]

competing no... however i do train and diet hard and wish to acheive the best physique i can which means as close to contest shape as possible.

i use equipoise with good results, ive never touched tren/winny/masteron etc for fear of side effects effecting my skin and hair.

is there any other good compounds for hardening/cutting that arent bad for sides? ive toyed with the idea of primo but read its bad for the hair as well

[#8]

^^^ i can tell by your avi that you obv no how to diet and train

:P

i thought primo was virtually side free....?