Chest Progress

[skaffer]

I find my chest is lagging behind, most of the tension going to my anterior deltoid or my triceps. Any of you have a great isolating method or perhaps had this problem too?
my chest workout is usually
Barbell Flat 4 x 10 -12
Barbell Incline 4 x 10 -12
Incline Flies 4 x 10 -12
Hammer Strength (Lever machine bench) superset with seating flies 4 x 10 -12
Cable Flies 4 x 10 -12
E-Z Bar Tricep Extensions 3 x 10 -12
Behind The Head Tricep Extensions 3 x 10 -12

30 - 90 second rests, takes me about 70 minutes +/- 10 minutes.

[oharad]

when benching u put hands flat on top of bar.....rotate under bar.... this will put shoulders in proper position to nail chest.

keep shoulders back when pressing

[#8]

when benching u put hands flat on top of bar.....rotate under bar.... this will put shoulders in proper position to nail chest.

keep shoulders back when pressing

do you mean by rolling your wrists backward to tighten your forearm? does that make sense?

[skaffer]

The way he's suggesting really does help "tighten" everything, thanks for the help brah, gotta try it out next time I bench.

[buildinthaskinnys]

Just curious, but what are your stats? and weights used for exercises? and how long have you been training this way? pm me is you want

[nii]

Barbell Flat 4 x 10 -12
Barbell Incline 4 x 10 -12
Incline Flies 4 x 10 -12
Hammer Strength (Lever machine bench) superset with seating flies 4 x 10 -12
Cable Flies 4 x 10 -12


Is it just me or is 20 sets of chest a week a little much?

[natenator]

Is it just me or is 20 sets of chest a week a little much?
I train everything high volume. 20 sets is the norm for me.

[Big D]

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4014

read the replies they will help you out.

[nii]

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4014


a quote from that thread :

8 - Train with compensatory acceleration.

Push the bar with maximal force. Whatever weight you're trying to push,
be it 40% or 100% of your max, you must learn to apply 100% of the force
to the barbell. If you can bench 500 pounds and are training with 300
pounds, you must then apply 500 pounds of force to the 300-pound
barbell. This is known as compensatory acceleration and it can help you
break through sticking points.

These sticking points are known as your "mini maxes," or the points at
which you miss the lift or the barbell begins to slip out of the groove.
Many times I'm asked what to do if the barbell gets stuck four to five
inches off the chest. Everybody wants to know what exercise will help
them strengthen this area or what body part is holding them back. Many
times it isn't what you do to strengthen the area where it sticks, but
what you can do to build more acceleration in the area before the mini
max. If you can get the bar moving with more force then there won't be a
sticking point. Instead, you'll blast right through it. Compensatory
acceleration will help you do this.

I never understood this point. Isn't this almost exactly what you shouldn't do? Instead use more controlled motion? I mean if your constantly doing this, your essentially lifting nothing in the later part of the motion (basically using momentum to finish the motion).

[Praetorian]

I find my chest is lagging behind, most of the tension going to my anterior deltoid or my triceps. Any of you have a great isolating method or perhaps had this problem too?
my chest workout is usually
Barbell Flat 4 x 10 -12
Barbell Incline 4 x 10 -12
Incline Flies 4 x 10 -12
Hammer Strength (Lever machine bench) superset with seating flies 4 x 10 -12
Cable Flies 4 x 10 -12
E-Z Bar Tricep Extensions 3 x 10 -12
Behind The Head Tricep Extensions 3 x 10 -12

30 - 90 second rests, takes me about 70 minutes +/- 10 minutes.

Ok first off you need to learn to bench press properly. You want as little shoulder rotation as possible. The reason you are hitting anterior delts is mainly because you have way too much shoulder rotation and not enough arch in the back and you are probably flariing your elbows out instead of tucking them.
I have posted this many times before...and i will again. The bench press is probablythe most popular exercise and the one thats perform incorrectly the most.
You also are doing too many exercises per chest workout...pick 4 and do three working sets each ie flat bench, incline flyes, hammer strength, and cables.
read the article below and learn how to do the bench correctly. You will save your shoulders in the process...rotator cuff tears are not fun!!!
P

12 Steps to a Bigger Bench and chest-by Dave Tate

1 - Train the Triceps

Years ago, if you had asked Larry Pacifico how to get a big bench, he'd
have told you to train the triceps. This same advice applies today. This
doesn't mean doing set after set of pushdowns, kickbacks, and other
so-called "shaping" exercises. Training your triceps for a big bench has
to involve heavy extensions and close-grip pressing movements such as
close-grip flat and incline bench presses, close-grip board presses, and
JM presses.

Various barbell and dumbbell extensions should also be staples of your
training program. Don't let anyone try to tell you the bench press is
about pec strength. These people don't know the correct way to bench and
are setting you up for a short pressing career with sub-par weights. I
just read an article in one of the major muscle magazines by one of
these authors on how to increase your bench press. The advice given was
to train your pecs with crossovers and flies and your bench will go up!
This, along with many other points, made me wonder how this article ever
got published or better yet, how much the author himself could bench.

I believe articles should go under a peer review board before they get
printed. I'd like many of my peers to review these authors in the gym or
better yet on the bench to see how much they really know. Bottom line:
Train the triceps!

2 - Keep your shoulder blades pulled together and tight.

This is a very important and often overlooked aspect of great bench
pressing. While pressing you have to create the most stable environment
possible. This can't be done if most of your shoulder blades are off the
bench. The bench is only so wide and we can't change this, but we can
change how we position ourselves on the bench.

When you pull your shoulder blades together you're creating a tighter,
more stable surface from which to press. This is because more of your
body is in contact with the bench. The tightness of your upper back also
contributes. These techniques also change the distance the bar will have
to travel. The key to pressing big weight is to press the shortest
distance possible.

[b]3 - Keep the pressure on your upper back and traps.

This is another misunderstood aspect of pressing. You want the pressure
around the supporting muscles. This is accomplished by driving your feet
into the floor, thereby driving your body into the bench. Try this: Lie
on the bench and line up so your eyes are four inches in front of the
bar (toward your feet). Now using your legs, drive yourself into the
bench to put pressure on the upper back and traps. Your eyes should now
be even with the bar. This is the same pressure that needs to be applied
while pushing the barbell.

4 - Push the bar in a straight line.

Try to push the bar toward your feet. The shortest distance between two
points is a straight line, right? Then why in the world would some
coaches advocate pressing in a "J" line toward the rack? If I were to
bench the way most trainers are advocating (with my elbows out, bringing
the bar down to the chest and pressing toward the rack) my barbell
travel distance would be 16 inches. Now, if I pull my shoulder blades
together, tuck my chin and elbows, and bring the bar to my upper
abdominals or lower chest, then my pressing distance is only 6.5 inches.
Now which would you prefer? If you want to push up a bar-bending load of
plates, you'd choose the shorter distance.

Here's another important aspect of pressing in this style. By keeping
your shoulder blades together and your chin and elbows tucked, you'll
have less shoulder rotation when compared to the J-line method of
pressing. This is easy to see by watching how low the elbows drop in the
bottom part of the press when the barbell is on the chest. With the
elbows out, most everyone's elbows are far lower than the bench. This
creates a tremendous amount of shoulder rotation and strain.

Now try the same thing with the elbows tucked and shoulder blades
together while bringing the barbell to your upper abdominals. For most
people, the elbows are usually no lower than the bench. Less shoulder
rotation equals less strain on the shoulder joint. This means pressing
bigger weights for many more years. I've always been amazed at trainers
that suggest only doing the top half of the bench press, i.e. stopping
when the upper arms are parallel to the floor. This is done to avoid the
excess shoulder rotation. All they have to do is teach their clients the
proper way to bench in the first place!

5 - Keep the elbows tucked and the bar directly over the wrists and
elbows.

This is probably the most important aspect of great pressing technique.
The elbows must remain tucked to keep the bar in a straight line as
explained above. Keeping the elbows tucked will also allow lifters to
use their lats to drive the bar off the chest. Football players are
taught to drive their opponents with their elbows tucked, then explode
through. This is the same for bench pressing. Bench pressing is all
about generating force. You can generate far more force with your elbows
in a tucked position compared to an "elbows out" position.

The most important aspect of this is to keep the barbell in a direct
line with the elbow. If the barbell is behind the elbow toward the head,
then the arm position becomes similar to an extension, not a press.

6 - Bring the bar low on your chest or upper abdominals.

This is the only way you can maintain the "barbell to elbow" position as
described above. You may have heard the advice, "Bring it low" at almost
every powerlifting competition. This is the reason why. Once again, the
barbell must travel in a straight line.

7 - Fill your belly with air and hold it.

For maximum attempts and sets under three reps, you must try to hold
your air. Everyone must learn to breathe from their bellies and not
their chests. If you stand in front of the mirror and take a deep
breath, your shoulders shouldn't rise. If they do you're breathing the
air into your chest, not your belly. Greater stability can be achieved
in all the lifts when you learn how to pull air into the belly. Try to
expand and fill the belly with as much air as possible and hold it. If
you breathe out during a maximum attempt, the body structure will change
slightly, thus changing the groove in which the barbell is traveling.

8 - Train with compensatory acceleration.

Push the bar with maximal force. Whatever weight you're trying to push,
be it 40% or 100% of your max, you must learn to apply 100% of the force
to the barbell. If you can bench 500 pounds and are training with 300
pounds, you must then apply 500 pounds of force to the 300-pound
barbell. This is known as compensatory acceleration and it can help you
break through sticking points.

These sticking points are known as your "mini maxes," or the points at
which you miss the lift or the barbell begins to slip out of the groove.
Many times I'm asked what to do if the barbell gets stuck four to five
inches off the chest. Everybody wants to know what exercise will help
them strengthen this area or what body part is holding them back. Many
times it isn't what you do to strengthen the area where it sticks, but
what you can do to build more acceleration in the area before the mini
max. If you can get the bar moving with more force then there won't be a
sticking point. Instead, you'll blast right through it. Compensatory
acceleration will help you do this.

9 - Squeeze the barbell and try to pull the bar apart!

Regardless of the lift, you have to keep your body as tight as Monica
Brant's behind. You'll never lift big weights if you're in a relaxed
physical state while under the barbell. The best way to get the body
tight is by squeezing the bar. We've also found that if you try to pull
the bar apart or "break the bar," the triceps seem to become more
activated.

10 - Devote one day per week to dynamic-effort training.

According to Vladimir Zatsiorsinsky in his text Science and Practice of
Strength Training, there are three ways to increase muscle tension.
These three methods include the dynamic-effort method, the
maximal-effort method, and the repetition method. Most training programs
being practiced in the US today only utilize one or two of these
methods. It's important, however, to use all three.

The bench press should be trained using the dynamic-effort method. This
method is best defined as training with sub-maximal weights (45 to 60%)
at maximal velocities. The key to this method is bar speed. Percentage
training can be very deceiving. The reason for this is because lifters
at higher levels have better motor control and recruit more muscle than
a less experienced lifter.

For example, the maximal amount of muscle you could possibility recruit
is 100%. Now, the advanced lifter _ after years of teaching his nervous
system to be efficient _ may be able to recruit 70 to 80% of muscle
fibers, while the intermediate might be able to recruit only 50%. Thus,
the advanced lifter would need less percent weight than the
intermediate. This is one of the reasons why an advanced lifter
squatting 80% of his max for 10 reps would kill himself while a beginner
could do it all day long.

If you base the training on bar speed, then the percentages are no
longer an issue, only a guideline. So how do you know where to start? If
you're an intermediate lifter, I suggest you start at 50% of maximal and
see how fast you can make it move for three reps. If you can move 20
more pounds with the same speed then use the heavier weight.

Based on years of experience and Primlin's charts for optimal percent
training, we've found the best range to be eight sets of three reps.
Based on Primlin's research, the optimal range for 70% and less is 12 to
24 repetitions.

We've also found it very beneficial to train the bench using three
different grips, all of which are performed within the rings. This may
break down into two sets with the pinky fingers on the rings, three sets
with three fingers from the smooth area of the bar and three sets with
one finger from the smooth area.


11 - Devote one day per week to maximal-effort training.

For the second bench day of the week (72 hours after the dynamic day)
you should concentrate on the maximal-effort method. This is best
defined as lifting maximal weights (90% to 100%) for one to three reps.
This is one of the best methods to develop maximal strength. The key
here is to strain. The downfall is you can't train above 90% for longer
than three weeks without having adverse effects.

Try performing a max bench press every week for four or five weeks.
You'll see you may progress for the first two, maybe three weeks, then
your progress will halt and begin to work its way backward. We've
combated this by switching up the maximal-effort exercises. We rotate
maximal-effort movements such as the close-grip incline press, board
press, floor press, and close-grip flat press. These exercises are all
specific to bench pressing and all have a very high carryover value.

12 - Train the lats on the same plane as the bench.

I'm talking about the horizontal plane here. In other words, you must
perform rows, rows, and more rows. "If you want to bench big then you
need to train the lats." I've heard both George Hilbert and Kenny
Patterson say this for years when asked about increasing the bench
press. When you bench you're on a horizontal plane. So would it make
sense from a balance perspective to train the lats with pulldowns, which
are on a vertical plane? Nope. Stick to the barbell row if you want a
big bench.

[Ritch]

^^^ Some kick ass advice!

[skaffer]

that is a great article! thanks

[buildinthaskinnys]

a quote from that thread :


I never understood this point. Isn't this almost exactly what you shouldn't do? Instead use more controlled motion? I mean if your constantly doing this, your essentially lifting nothing in the later part of the motion (basically using momentum to finish the motion).

yeh and in another part he is basically saying you should use momentum to carry you through your weak points in the lift, I dont agree with this part, but I like the rest, Is there any videos representing the form explained in this?

[Praetorian]

a quote from that thread :


I never understood this point. Isn't this almost exactly what you shouldn't do? Instead use more controlled motion? I mean if your constantly doing this, your essentially lifting nothing in the later part of the motion (basically using momentum to finish the motion).

You dont understand it because youve never done it. This is exactly how you should train every muscle group. It is how you get stronger and put on thickness and density. There is NO momentum it is only used as an explanation to illustrate the point (its called bar speed). If youve done this before you would understand. Dave is talking serious weight here...try using compensatory acceleration on 300lbs on the bench and let me know how much momentum helps you out!!
P

[Praetorian]

yeh and in another part he is basically saying you should use momentum to carry you through your weak points in the lift, I dont agree with this part, but I like the rest, Is there any videos representing the form explained in this?

Please dont disagree without understanding the point. Before negating what the writer (Dave ) has to say...try the technique out for yourself. Compensatory acceleration is nothing new its been around for over 30 years.
P

[natenator]

You dont understand it because youve never done it. This is exactly how you should train every muscle group. It is how you get stronger and put on thickness and density. There is NO momentum it is only used as an explanation to illustrate the point (its called bar speed). If youve done this before you would understand. Dave is talking serious weight here...try using compensatory acceleration on 300lbs on the bench and let me know how much momentum helps you out!!
P
:D

[L3]

is there any merit to training in the low range of motion. for example, when i jump on a pressing machine for a strip set, i generally feel my chest engaging/"burning" more if i keep the range <6 inches out from my chest.
this is after i have competed my work sets on the regular bench press with full ROM

[nii]

You dont understand it because youve never done it. This is exactly how you should train every muscle group. It is how you get stronger and put on thickness and density. There is NO momentum it is only used as an explanation to illustrate the point (its called bar speed). If youve done this before you would understand. Dave is talking serious weight here...try using compensatory acceleration on 300lbs on the bench and let me know how much momentum helps you out!!
P

Not trying to discredit this point, just try to understand it mate. The only reason I don't get it is because it's exactly opposite to what HIT is all about.

[O-Train]

You guys gotta understand that the article is for someone trying to lift huge weights. The people with the largest most well developed chests are not the biggest benchers in the world.

Powerlifters are efficient, bodybuilders are inefficient. Different strokes (quite literally).

[buildinthaskinnys]

I understand the point completely, but to apply it to someone whos chest is lagging in size, I just dont agree with it sorry, compensatory acceleration is just a fancy term for an explosive concentric movement is it not? Seems to me this guy trains powerlifters.

[Praetorian]

Not trying to discredit this point, just try to understand it mate. The only reason I don't get it is because it's exactly opposite to what HIT is all about.

You mus not understand HIT then...HIT is all about getting stronger an pushing more each training session...ala DC training. Compensatory acceleration is what HIT is based on.
P

[Praetorian]

You guys gotta understand that the article is for someone trying to lift huge weights. The people with the largest most well developed chests are not the biggest benchers in the world.

Powerlifters are efficient, bodybuilders are inefficient. Different strokes (quite literally).

The article is written for those who are striving to increase their bench press and thus chest and overall upper body density and size. It doesnt matter how much you currently lift or if you are a powerlifter or a BB the article teaches correct technique on how to perform the exercise which leads to more strength, more growth, and less injuries. BB is not about being inefficient its about training a certain style to illicit muscular growth...ie rep ranges, sets, combinations etc. Powerlifting sets , reps , combos are different yes because the goal is pure strength but the exercise still requires correct technique. I hate to break to news to you guys but getting big...i mean "holy fu*k" big requires moving some serious weights...and that requires compensatory acceleration.
P

[Praetorian]

is there any merit to training in the low range of motion. for example, when i jump on a pressing machine for a strip set, i generally feel my chest engaging/"burning" more if i keep the range <6 inches out from my chest.
this is after i have competed my work sets on the regular bench press with full ROM

Yes there is merit to this...especially if you have shoulder issues. Shoulder rotation should be kept to a minimum on pressing exercises and some machines are poorly designed and force rotation this stopping a few inches off your chest is fine and prevents this rotation frfom happening.
P

[AlladdinSane]

(Directed @ skinnys) If you understood the point completely you would agree with it.
Spend more time thinking about it and realize that if you're exploding harder and faster you'll be training your nervous system to fire a higher percentage of fibers creating more overall stimulation resulting in a better setting for muscle growth.

I'm so sick of the smelly, skinny guy in the gym preaching "super-slow-motion training to feel the muscle is the way to growth" bullshit.

[Praetorian]

I understand the point completely, but to apply it to someone whos chest is lagging in size, I just dont agree with it sorry, compensatory acceleration is just a fancy term for an explosive concentric movement is it not? Seems to me this guy trains powerlifters.

Show me someone who can bench 500lbs and Ill show you someone with a huge chest. Show me someone who trains nice and slow with moderate weights on the cable crossover and ill show you the next beach wear model.
Its funny how the little guys always discount how the big guys train because what they know works so great...and yet they have trouble breaking 200lbs...in the offseason yet.
P

Like Ronnie said "everybody wants to be a bodybuilder but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights!!!"

[Praetorian]

If you understood the point completely you would agree with it.
Spend more time thinking about it and realize that if you're exploding harder and faster you'll be training your nervous system to fire a higher percentage of fibers creating more overall stimulation resulting in a better setting for muscle growth.

I'm so sick of the smelly, skinny guy in the gym preaching "super-slow-motion training to feel the muscle is the way to growth" bullshit.

Finally someone with some common sense...jeez!
P

[buildinthaskinnys]

I didnt know this was the secret the pros have been hiding for all of these years.... there it was all along Compensatory acceleration.

As for bringing up lagging bodyparts that way you are the few that would believe this would be the solution.

D.C. training emphasizes an explosive concentric, with a controlled negative about 4 to 5 seconds that might be SUPER SLOW TO SOME.

H.I.T. Training however has nothing to do with that term, its about time under tension, going to failure, and increasing resistance every session. And in a super slow fashion as prescribed by mike mentzer.



Get your shit straight before you start critizizing.

[buildinthaskinnys]

Show me someone who can bench 500lbs and Ill show you someone with a huge chest. Show me someone who trains nice and slow with moderate weights on the cable crossover and ill show you the next beach wear model.
Its funny how the little guys always discount how the big guys train because what they know works so great...and yet they have trouble breaking 200lbs...in the offseason yet.
P

Like Ronnie said "everybody wants to be a bodybuilder but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights!!!"


IM trying to find in my post before where I talked about super slow training or moderate weights, can you help me find it?

[Praetorian]

IM trying to find in my post before where I talked about super slow training or moderate weights, can you help me find it?

If you are not using CA...then please define your rep tempo...if its not explosive then what is it? Slow and controlled OH hmmmm....
And yes HIT is about CA....just like DC...no one is talking negatives or eccentric here. They may be one part of the system yes but so is CA....its not the be all end all of training it is one part of a system...but a necessary part.
Mike Mentzer had his own style which some people refer to as HIT...its not what HIT is defined as soley. HIT is basically one set to absolute failure trying to effectively utilize as many muscle fibres or force as possible....this requires CA as posted above by Aladdinsane.
As for a secret the pros have been hiding...lol nice try...the secret is busting your ass and moving some serious weights...ala Ronnie Coleman, Johnnie Jackson, Ben White, Chris Cormier, Dorian Yates...etc etc. The secret is actually simplicity...the problem is its very tough so many find an excuse not to do it.
P

[buildinthaskinnys]

Im not going to disagree with anyone, I am going to say this however, I trained explosively for a time and did make good gains, however my joints and connective tissure deteriorated rapidly in this form, now I train with a slow controlled negative with a just short of explosive rep on the concentric phase, however, on my last reps of the set I am pushing with the absolute force that I am able to perform. Along with a few all out rest pauses, Which I guess could be called CA.

I would like to state more clearly as a few misunderstood me before, I don't agree with using this technique to bring up lagging body parts only thats all I was trying to say. I could be steered in another direction with the proper argument and backing evidence. but as it stands I dont believe in that method of thought.

[tiramisu]

I think the thread got interesting but maybe mixes messages a bit. Dave Tate's advice is great for all of us and I think he has some other good pieces on EliteFTS.

Feel free to comment on this as, as always I may be wrong :)

DC or HIT Training except where used as plateau busters are almost certainly going to break most of us. If you don't haven't developed the prerequisite muscular and tendon strength I think either is a recipe for injury.

[natenator]

with DC the other factor involved is the quantity of food. You can't train like that and not eat the calories required for repair.

[Praetorian]

Im not going to disagree with anyone, I am going to say this however, I trained explosively for a time and did make good gains, however my joints and connective tissure deteriorated rapidly in this form, now I train with a slow controlled negative with a just short of explosive rep on the concentric phase, however, on my last reps of the set I am pushing with the absolute force that I am able to perform. Along with a few all out rest pauses, Which I guess could be called CA.

I would like to state more clearly as a few misunderstood me before, I don't agree with using this technique to bring up lagging body parts only thats all I was trying to say. I could be steered in another direction with the proper argument and backing evidence. but as it stands I dont believe in that method of thought.

The sole purpose of CA is not to bring up lagging body parts...it is but one tool in the BB arsenal. CA is something that should be utilized correctly and I can understand where you are coming from re: the joints and connective tissue. That is a problem associated with using any type of training and not cycling your methods. CA. HIT, DC are most effective when used correctly and that means cycling methods over time or using the conjugate method. The evidence is quite clear and there are many studies proving much more fibre stimulation with explosive training then with controlled moderate or slow tempo training. This is all fine and dandy and looks nice on paper...but all the evidence I need is the results I get with myself and all my clients using this method. From 5'11 and 170lbs to 285lbs offseason at approx 12&#37; BF I would have to say the evidence is more than substantial. As well all of my clients who have stalled in their progress have put on considerable muscle once incorporating CA into their training.
P

[Praetorian]

I think the thread got interesting but maybe mixes messages a bit. Dave Tate's advice is great for all of us and I think he has some other good pieces on EliteFTS.

Feel free to comment on this as, as always I may be wrong :)

DC or HIT Training except where used as plateau busters are almost certainly going to break most of us. If you don't haven't developed the prerequisite muscular and tendon strength I think either is a recipe for injury.

Agreed....some great articles on Elitefts as well.
HIT, DC etc all require cycling...you cannot train like that for much longer than 4-8 weeks without cycling.
P

[O-Train]

I guess I should clarify. What I meant when I was talking about efficiency is that having a well developed nervous system allows muscles to be more efficient. There are two ways of looking at it. A more efficient muscle can produce more force and so requires less growth to produce a given amount of force. Someone who's nervous system is not as well refined could have identical muscles, leverage etc... but can't move the same weight because their muscles arn't as efficient in terms of force output. So they would need larger muscles to produce the same force. Of course it works both ways in that a well developed nervous system allows more weight to be lifted and so the person puts on more size.

All I am saying is that well there is a direct correlation between size and strength that is not the whole picture. There are many ways to look at something. I personally train slow eccentric and faster concentric. My reasoning is that slow eccentric is easier on my joints and from my experience and reading it produces microtearing that helps a lot with hypertrophy. Also keeping a consistent negative phase allows me to know that any gains I am making in terms of weight/reps is not because of momentum or sloppy form. The fast concentric is to get the weight back up to start the eccentric again. Also, fast twitch muscle fibers respond the most to explosive movements.

I modified DC training so that I can sustain a high level of training over a longer period of time. In some ways I made it easier but my gains have been better.

[Praetorian]

I guess I should clarify. What I meant when I was talking about efficiency is that having a well developed nervous system allows muscles to be more efficient. There are two ways of looking at it. A more efficient muscle can produce more force and so requires less growth to produce a given amount of force. Someone who's nervous system is not as well refined could have identical muscles, leverage etc... but can't move the same weight because their muscles arn't as efficient in terms of force output. So they would need larger muscles to produce the same force. Of course it works both ways in that a well developed nervous system allows more weight to be lifted and so the person puts on more size.

All I am saying is that well there is a direct correlation between size and strength that is not the whole picture. There are many ways to look at something. I personally train slow eccentric and faster concentric. My reasoning is that slow eccentric is easier on my joints and from my experience and reading it produces microtearing that helps a lot with hypertrophy. Also keeping a consistent negative phase allows me to know that any gains I am making in terms of weight/reps is not because of momentum or sloppy form. The fast concentric is to get the weight back up to start the eccentric again. Also, fast twitch muscle fibers respond the most to explosive movements.

I modified DC training so that I can sustain a high level of training over a longer period of time. In some ways I made it easier but my gains have been better.

Your second paragraph right is on the money. Controlled eccentric effectively produces hypertropy. Explosive concentric effectively builds power and strength. The combination creates thick, dense, strong muscles. CA was never about dropping the weight quickly or sloppy form...thats just dangerous.
An efficient nervous system helps both the powerlifter and the BB. And yes muscle size is not directly proportionate to strength...but in general terms the larger the muscle the stronger it is. A powerlifter trains for pure strength so he utilizes different techniques and thus the proportion of size to power changes.
But the main idea to keep in mind especially for beginner to intermediate BB's is that you need to get stronger to get bigger.
P

[skaffer]

Well after reading the pages of replies about all of you arguing, I threw in some chest today with shoulders just because I was so anxious, I just went really light cause it was the end of my shoulder workout and just wanted to test form, and I felt it all in my chest, the shoulder blade pinch, "pulling the bar apart", breathing in through your stomach...all of it! It is great, anyone who doesn't understand it right now the only way I think you will (if you're like me) is trying it! I had no clue when I was reading it how different it would be, but it was.

Also Praetorian (and others who agreed) good replies and explanations.

[O-Train]

Your second paragraph right is on the money. Controlled eccentric effectively produces hypertropy. Explosive concentric effectively builds power and strength. The combination creates thick, dense, strong muscles. CA was never about dropping the weight quickly or sloppy form...thats just dangerous.
An efficient nervous system helps both the powerlifter and the BB. And yes muscle size is not directly proportionate to strength...but in general terms the larger the muscle the stronger it is. A powerlifter trains for pure strength so he utilizes different techniques and thus the proportion of size to power changes.
But the main idea to keep in mind especially for beginner to intermediate BB's is that you need to get stronger to get bigger.
P

I understand CA, not trying to argue it. I have that exact article saved on my computer somewhere from a while back. Dave Tate and also Louie Simmons are very knowledgable. I like to incorporate ideas from different people and mold the programs to my specific goals. In my personal experience I've found my body doesn't respond as well to strength/power programs in terms of hypertrophy. I've been tossing the idea around in my head of rotating back and forth between what I do now (similar to DC) and a Westside, 5x5 or similar type program. Obviously with rest/recovery in between. Strength being central to both programs but one focusing more on hypertrophy and one more focused around power. If my gains start to drop off than I think I will experiment with something like that.

How would you decide if a bodybuilder is a beginner, intermediate, advanced?

[juggybuggy]

I find my chest is lagging behind, most of the tension going to my anterior deltoid or my triceps. Any of you have a great isolating method or perhaps had this problem too?
my chest workout is usually
Barbell Flat 4 x 10 -12
Barbell Incline 4 x 10 -12
Incline Flies 4 x 10 -12
Hammer Strength (Lever machine bench) superset with seating flies 4 x 10 -12
Cable Flies 4 x 10 -12
E-Z Bar Tricep Extensions 3 x 10 -12
Behind The Head Tricep Extensions 3 x 10 -12

30 - 90 second rests, takes me about 70 minutes +/- 10 minutes.


weighted dips are an excellent chest exercise, you should throw them into the mix once in a while,

[BigDaddyFreak]

The article is written for those who are striving to increase their bench press and thus chest and overall upper body density and size. It doesnt matter how much you currently lift or if you are a powerlifter or a BB the article teaches correct technique on how to perform the exercise which leads to more strength, more growth, and less injuries. BB is not about being inefficient its about training a certain style to illicit muscular growth...ie rep ranges, sets, combinations etc. Powerlifting sets , reps , combos are different yes because the goal is pure strength but the exercise still requires correct technique. I hate to break to news to you guys but getting big...i mean "holy fu*k" big requires moving some serious weights...and that requires compensatory acceleration.
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I've been powerlifting for about 20 years and have used westside for the whole time; I even have Louie simmons original videos, have attended Elitefts seminars, etc. When benching with a tuck of the elbows, you are attempting to REMOVE the pecs from the movement. Just adding my 2 cents; powerlifting I know, bodybuilding I am new.

[BigDaddyFreak]

Bench presses to the neck (kinda dangerous, but works) with the elbows out, not tucked, is quite a good exercise for pec development. Really start with a light weight, though.

[Chaps]

Couple things:
1.stretch your chest, biceps and deltoids
2. incorporate more rows into your back routine and keep your shoulder blades down and back (retracted) during rows and pulldowns.
3. scapular stabilization exercises: Y's T's W's. look them up
4. Try doing rows while a week

Basically all of this will pull your shoulders back more, as you'll be targeting some weak links in your upper back, also consider stopping shoulder presses for a while to rest your anterior deltoids and balance things out a bit more. Doing this i've actually seen a change in the look of my ribcage, my shoulders are wayyyyy farther back and my chest sticks out, i keep my shoulder blades retracted throughout my presses and i notice wayyyyyyy more chest activation.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/top_priority_for_lower_traps

Check out that article, follow it to the letter and i have no doubt you'll notice a huge difference in a month or two.

[andymc]

Why should lats be trained on the same day as chest?