Protein Uptake

[ezturbo]

I got in a heated arguement with a GNC employee today that claims someone at my size (210lbs, 9%bf, 6'0) can only absorb 30grams of protein at a single sitting. Now I know that's gotta be bullshit. I've read multiple articles claiming that false and the absorbtion is closer to 60grams every 2hours. That may be inncorrect aswell but do any of you guys have a more theoretical answer? And obviously it would be increased with AAS, but by how much? What's a solid size for a pwo shake while on cycle? Cheers.

[5151]

I got in a heated arguement with a GNC employee today that claims someone at my size (210lbs, 9%bf, 6'0) can only absorb 30grams of protein at a single sitting. Now I know that's gotta be bullshit. I've read multiple articles claiming that false and the absorbtion is closer to 60grams every 2hours. That may be inncorrect aswell but do any of you guys have a more theoretical answer? And obviously it would be increased with AAS, but by how much? What's a solid size for a pwo shake while on cycle? Cheers.

It doesn't really make sense to say how much can be digested in a single sitting. You have to look at the digestion rate of the protein. 95% of the proteins we consider a protein source have over 90% digestion. For example eating 90g of protein is just going to take a longer period of time to digest than 30g. As for when drugs are in use...who the **** knows? I've never seen any research in that domain.

[ezturbo]

It doesn't really make sense to say how much can be digested in a single sitting. You have to look at the digestion rate of the protein. 95% of the proteins we consider a protein source have over 90% digestion. For example eating 90g of protein is just going to take a longer period of time to digest than 30g. As for when drugs are in use...who the **** knows? I've never seen any research in that domain.

Sorry, I shoulda been more clear, I was under the impression after "X"grams of protein, the body just turns it into waste.

[Andre]

Why bother arguing with a guy at GNC :) I did recently read an interesting article regarding a protein absorbsion study that was done at U of T, according to the study the max amount per serving is 20G's, any more is wasted... very interesting article!

[ezturbo]

Why bother arguing with a guy at GNC :) I did recently read an interesting article regarding a protein absorbsion study that was done at U of T, according to the study the max amount per serving is 20G's, any more is wasted... very interesting article!

Have a link?

PS.. The guys working at GNC are queens. So are you if you like muscletech lol.

[Andre]

I will dig up the article...

[champcar99]

Why bother arguing with a guy at GNC :) I did recently read an interesting article regarding a protein absorbsion study that was done at U of T, according to the study the max amount per serving is 20G's, any more is wasted... very interesting article!

20 grams so if you need 2 grams per pound and you are 200 lbs that means you have too consume 400 grams so thats 20 times in a day you have to consume protein.....hmmmmm

[Andre]

It was actually McMaster, not U of T... the study was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition...

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/short/89/1/161

PROTEIN DOSE TO MAXIMIZE MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AFTER RESISTANCE TRAINING
This clinical study involving 6 healthy young men aimed to determine the dose of protein needed to maximize muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. On 5 separate occasions, participants performed an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, they consumed in random order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 gm of whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 hours after exercise using an isotope tracer technique. Results showed that both MPS and APS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and were maximally stimulated at 20 grams. The authors say eating more than 20 gm of protein after exercise will not increase MPS further, but will be irreversibly oxidized (used for energy or stored as fat) if it is in excess of what the body needs to repair or make muscle tissue. [Moore DR, et al., Am J Clin Nutr, 89: 1-8, 2009]

[nisser]

I'd have to look at the full manuscript but what they tested there was effect of protein AFTER exercise and it looks like they used a 4h pulse chase with c13-leucine.

It says nothing of protein absorption in the middle of the day when you have your meal 3.

[gustavo77]

It was actually McMaster, not U of T... the study was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition...

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/short/89/1/161

PROTEIN DOSE TO MAXIMIZE MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AFTER RESISTANCE TRAINING
This clinical study involving 6 healthy young men aimed to determine the dose of protein needed to maximize muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. On 5 separate occasions, participants performed an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, they consumed in random order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 gm of whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 hours after exercise using an isotope tracer technique. Results showed that both MPS and APS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and were maximally stimulated at 20 grams. The authors say eating more than 20 gm of protein after exercise will not increase MPS further, but will be irreversibly oxidized (used for energy or stored as fat) if it is in excess of what the body needs to repair or make muscle tissue. [Moore DR, et al., Am J Clin Nutr, 89: 1-8, 2009]

This does not even list the weight of the subjects or the amount of muscle mass these guys carry... they could be 170lb rugby players.

Shit like this makes me laugh...it's like saying Jay Cutler only really needs 100grams of protein per day to grow...lol..

[JonnyO]

This is only with whole egg protein though. Wonder if it were whey.

[tiramisu]

Super Human Radio Show - # 257 - More Than 20 Grams Of Protein Is A Waste...

A fairly interesting show on this study with the researcher being interviewed.

[Andre]

This is only with whole egg protein though. Wonder if it were whey.

Egg white (albumin) is as good of a protein as whey protein...

[Ritch]

I`ve actually been doing this lower protein diet as I heard the interview stating this whole 20 gram thing. This is about the third week into it and I`m down 3 pounds, there can be some other factors here, but I think we know this is bullshit. Say you`re a big dude and weight 250lbs, by what that author is saying you only need something like 120 grams a day. Whatever I`m sure all the top amateurs and pros are going to reduce their protein consumption down because of this new research. Not!

[kloan]

We need at least 1gram of protein per 1lb of lean muscle mass in order to sustain the muscle size, no? At least, that's what the Keto diet suggests, or else we start to lose muscle mass.

So in order to grow, we need more protein than our body needs to sustain the muscles. Just how much that is, I have yet to see a sure fire way to calculate for every individual. Most of it is just guessing.

I've heard before that we only utilize 30grams of protein per meal and the rest is wasted. If that's the case... we'd have to eat a lot more meals throughout the day.. and who the hell wants to be eating every hour?? I'm having a hard enough time getting 6 meals into me as it is....

[O-Train]

This is a short blurb from that huge review article I posted up a little while ago. The data suggesting lower protein requirements (0.8-1g/kg) is old. For myself I shoot for 2g/kg. You could change it a bit based on lean mass but I do it this way to make sure I'm getting enough protein. I havn't come across any data that suggest how AAS use alters protein requirements but you can bet it does in a big way.

There has been considerable debate
regarding protein needs of athletes 16-20.
Initially, it was recommended that athletes
do not need to ingest more than the RDA
for protein (i.e., 0.8 to 1.0 g/kg/d for
children, adolescents and adults). However,
research over the last decade has indicated
that athletes engaged in intense training
need to ingest about 1.5 – 2 times the RDA
of protein in their diet (1.5 to 2.0 g/kg/d) in
order to maintain protein balance 16-20. If an
insufficient amount of protein is obtained
from the diet, an athlete will maintain a
negative nitrogen balance which can
increase protein catabolism and slow
recovery. Over time, this may lead to lean
muscle wasting and training intolerance 1, 12.
For people involved in a general fitness
program, protein needs can generally be met
by ingesting 0.8 – 1.0 grams/kg/day of
protein. It is generally recommended that
athletes involved in moderate amounts of
intense training consume 1 – 1.5
grams/kg/day of protein (50 – 225
grams/day for a 50 – 150 kg athlete) while
athletes involved in high volume intense
Sports Nutrition Review Journal. 1 (1):1-44, 2004. (www.sportsnutritionsociety.org)
9
training consume 1.5 – 2.0 grams/kg/day of
protein (75 – 300 grams/day for a 50 – 150
kg athlete) 21. This protein need would be
equivalent to ingesting 3 – 11 servings of
chicken or fish per day for a 50 – 150 kg
athlete 21. Although smaller athletes
typically can ingest this amount of protein
in their normal diet, larger athletes often
have difficulty consuming this much dietary
protein. Additionally, a number of athletic
populations have been reported to be
susceptible to protein malnutrition (e.g.,
runners, cyclists, swimmers, triathletes,
gymnasts, dancers, skaters, wrestlers,
boxers, etc). Therefore, care should be
taken to ensure that athletes consume a
sufficient amount of quality protein in their
diet in order to maintain nitrogen balance
(e.g., 1.5 - 2 grams/kg/day).
However, it should be noted that not all
protein is the same. Proteins differ based on
the source that the protein was obtained, the
amino acid profile of the protein, and the
methods of processing or isolating the
protein 22. These differences influence
availability of amino acids and peptides that
have been reported to possess biological
activity (e.g., α-lactalbumin, ßlactoglobulin,
glycomacropeptides,
immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidases,
lactoferrin, etc). Additionally, the rate and
metabolic activity of the protein 22. For
example, different types of proteins (e.g.,
casein and whey) are digested at different
rates which directly affect catabolism and
anabolism 22-25. Therefore, care should be
taken not only to make sure the athlete
consumes enough protein in their diet but
also that the protein is high quality. The
best dietary sources of low fat and high
quality protein are light skinless chicken,
fish, egg white and skim milk (casein and
whey) 22. The best sources of high quality
protein found in nutritional supplements is
whey, colostrum, casein, milk proteins and
egg protein 21, 22. Although some athletes
may not need to supplement their diet with
protein and some sport nutrition specialists
may not think that protein supplements are
necessary, suggestions that it is unethical
for an sport nutrition specialist to
recommend that some athletes supplement
their diet with protein in order to meet
dietary protein needs and/or provide
essential amino acids following exercise in
order to optimize protein synthesis is clearly
not supported by the literature.

[jsv22]

hmm i'm going to give that article a read over when i have a chance. i actually know one of the authors (a friend dated them).
From what i can recall, Tarnopolsky (one of the coauthors of the paper) has done a lot of nitrogen balance stuff.

here's a good study from that group,

Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes.
Tarnopolsky MA, Atkinson SA, MacDougall JD, Chesley A, Phillips S, Schwarcz HP.

Department of Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

Leucine kinetic and nitrogen balance (NBAL) methods were used to determine the dietary protein requirements of strength athletes (SA) compared with sedentary subjects (S). Individual subjects were randomly assigned to one of three protein intakes: low protein (LP) = 0.86 g protein.kg-1.day-1, moderate protein (MP) = 1.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1, or high protein (HP) = 2.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1 for 13 days for each dietary treatment. NBAL was measured and whole body protein synthesis (WBPS) and leucine oxidation were determined from L-[1-13C]leucine turnover. NBAL data were used to determine that the protein intake for zero NBAL for S was 0.69 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.41 g.kg-1.day-1. A suggested recommended intake for S was 0.89 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.76 g.kg-1.day-1. For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS (vs. LP) and no change in leucine oxidation (vs. LP)]. The HP diet did not result in increased WBPS compared with the MP diet, but leucine oxidation did increase significantly, indicating a nutrient overload. For S the LP diet provided adequate protein, and increasing protein intake did not increase WBPS. On the HP diet leucine oxidation increased for S. These results indicated that the MP and HP diets were nutrient overloads for S. There were no effects of varying protein intake on indexes of lean body mass (creatinine excretion, body density) for either group. In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than for sedentary individuals and are above current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males.

[bigtavi8]

Currently taking a product called Animal Mstak that increaes your rate of protein synthesis and absorbtion of protein so you can absorb more protein at any time (apparently over 60g at one sitting can be absorbed by the muscles with it.) I believe these claims becuase as a natural this stuff is non hormonal but yet allows me to get more protein therefore more growth. Sorry to hijack the thread but it increases absorbtion greatly so its relevant to the thread.