Squat Stance

[Josh]

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to figure out the best stance to use while squatting. When I use a wider stance (toes pointed out about 45 degrees, and almost touching the sides of the squat rack,) I find I can use more weight. By using this wide stance, am I neglecting to target necessary muscles? Basically I'm trying to figure out if it's better to use more weight with the wider stance, or less weight with the stance Rippetoe recommends (shoulder width, toes about 30 degrees out.) What will benefit me and help me progress more? The muscles targeted with the narrow stance, or the heavier weight with the wider stance? I know I'm asking the same thing a few different ways, but I'm just never sure if I'm being clear enough. With both stances, I am making sure to always go past parallel.

Thanks,
Josh

[MUSCULARMAYOR]

well that depends on what muscles you want to target. I personally like to take a wide stance and pile on the weight. If I want to target the quads more I'll do front squats. Narrow or wide they're both good, for me it's a comfort thing.

[Bowlcut]

Do all stances of squats with a variety of bars and placement.

Obviously deep close stance olympic squats work more erectors and quads, and the wide ones will hit your glutes and thighs more.

[Praetorian]

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to figure out the best stance to use while squatting. When I use a wider stance (toes pointed out about 45 degrees, and almost touching the sides of the squat rack,) I find I can use more weight. By using this wide stance, am I neglecting to target necessary muscles? Basically I'm trying to figure out if it's better to use more weight with the wider stance, or less weight with the stance Rippetoe recommends (shoulder width, toes about 30 degrees out.) What will benefit me and help me progress more? The muscles targeted with the narrow stance, or the heavier weight with the wider stance? I know I'm asking the same thing a few different ways, but I'm just never sure if I'm being clear enough. With both stances, I am making sure to always go past parallel.

Thanks,
Josh

The proper way to squat is a wide stance toes pointed sightly out and to concentrate on sitting back not going down when starting the movement. The intial breakpoint should be the hips NOT the knees. You need to practise this and gain some hip flexibility to do it correctly. A good technique to learn is the box squat West Side style...sitting back and popping straight up from the bottom. Remember the primary movers in teh squat are NOT the quads...they are the glutes and hamstrings. The quads obviously are involved and get great developement but without squatting correctly youl get very little glute and ham development which is very evident in many BB,s. But take a look at world class powerlifters...they all have relatively massive quads....but their hams have incredible development. Thats because the best ham exercise is the squat next to the Glute Ham raise. The idea that narrow stanced witll build more quad etc is outdated and archaic. Front squats are better at targetiing the quads and less stress on the lower back but they take some dexterity to perform.
P

[dku]

Check out this article for the pros and cons of both stances. I go in between.

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/olympic_vs_powerlifting_squats&cr=

[O-Train]

The proper way to squat is a wide stance toes pointed sightly out and to concentrate on sitting back not going down when starting the movement. The intial breakpoint should be the hips NOT the knees. You need to practise this and gain some hip flexibility to do it correctly. A good technique to learn is the box squat West Side style...sitting back and popping straight up from the bottom. Remember the primary movers in teh squat are NOT the quads...they are the glutes and hamstrings. The quads obviously are involved and get great developement but without squatting correctly youl get very little glute and ham development which is very evident in many BB,s. But take a look at world class powerlifters...they all have relatively massive quads....but their hams have incredible development. Thats because the best ham exercise is the squat next to the Glute Ham raise. The idea that narrow stanced witll build more quad etc is outdated and archaic. Front squats are better at targetiing the quads and less stress on the lower back but they take some dexterity to perform.
P

Great post. Although I disagree slightly on the hamstring part. From what I've read and personal experience from the gym the glutes and quads do most of the work. Probably because the hamstrings (aside from one small part) cross the hip and the knee. I would imagine there isn't enough tension on the hamstrings in a sqaut to produce significant activation.

Aside from having a shorter ROM the reason you can lift more with your legs way out and toes pointed outwards is the increased glute activation. It allows you to take more of the load in your hips. Couldn't agree more with the hip joint first part. The lady that runs the gym at the Uni here where I work and train was trying to get me to keep my glutes flexed through the whole squat. Try doing an anterior tilt of your pelvis and flexing your glutes at the same time, damn near impossible. Apparently it can be done though.

If you think of your pelvis like a bucket of water anterior tilt is dumping water out the front, posterior is dumping it out the back. Best way I've had it explained to me.

Usually the big problems people have with squats are allowing their knees to go too far forward and hamstring flexibility issues. If you can squat a lot of weight your ass should be big because like Praetorian said you should be sitting back into the squat. Although from what I've seen oly lifters do things a little different but they are usually extremely flexible. If your hams are tight they will pull your butt under and when you lose the anterior pelvic tilt it can cause back injuries.

Can you tell I love this stuff?

Stance is a personal thing but I would recommend a few inches wider than shoulder width w/ your toes pointed slightly outwards.

[Josh]

Thanks for all the info, guys. It's very helpful.

[natenator]

Great post. Although I disagree slightly on the hamstring part. From what I've read and personal experience from the gym the glutes and quads do most of the work. Probably because the hamstrings (aside from one small part) cross the hip and the knee. I would imagine there isn't enough tension on the hamstrings in a sqaut to produce significant activation.

Aside from having a shorter ROM the reason you can lift more with your legs way out and toes pointed outwards is the increased glute activation. It allows you to take more of the load in your hips. Couldn't agree more with the hip joint first part. The lady that runs the gym at the Uni here where I work and train was trying to get me to keep my glutes flexed through the whole squat. Try doing an anterior tilt of your pelvis and flexing your glutes at the same time, damn near impossible. Apparently it can be done though.

If you think of your pelvis like a bucket of water anterior tilt is dumping water out the front, posterior is dumping it out the back. Best way I've had it explained to me.

Usually the big problems people have with squats are allowing their knees to go too far forward and hamstring flexibility issues. If you can squat a lot of weight your ass should be big because like Praetorian said you should be sitting back into the squat. Although from what I've seen oly lifters do things a little different but they are usually extremely flexible. If your hams are tight they will pull your butt under and when you lose the anterior pelvic tilt it can cause back injuries.

Can you tell I love this stuff?

Stance is a personal thing but I would recommend a few inches wider than shoulder width w/ your toes pointed slightly outwards.
the only thing I'll say to backup P's comments is that to get out of the hole it's all about hams and gluts. Little to no quad involvement when getting out of the hole from an ATG squat.

[Praetorian]

the only thing I'll say to backup P's comments is that to get out of the hole it's all about hams and gluts. Little to no quad involvement when getting out of the hole from an ATG squat.

You hit the nail on the head. The glutes are the strongest muscle in the body and combined with the hams are the primary movers out of the hole. The quads really dont come into play until you are out of the hole. BUT and this is a big but...most guys dont squat near deep enough to even marginally get glute and ham development. If you dont believe me then go read a few articles by Louie Simmons or Dave Tate. Ive rarely seen a BB squat correctly not to mention have the correct stance. If you are doing the squat correctly its primarily these muscles...worrying about the knees travelling forward is a moot point if you are squatting correctly...which is back not down. The knees travel forward because of incorrect technique and improper stance. You cannot squat by leading with the knees...whcih most people start off doing. A wide stance enables you to squat heavier because yes you do get more glute and ham invlovement but also a wider base ie pyramid gives you more stability. Again the issue is hip flexibility...with it you wont get pelvic tilt and youll avoid injury. Its the same idea as in sprinting...the primary movers are the glutes and hams...you are not pushing (running) across the track (ground) what you are doing is pulling the ground (track) underneath you. The posterior chain is the least understood and least developed in most beginning and intermediate BB.
P

[faller]

If your hams are tight they will pull your butt under and when you lose the anterior pelvic tilt it can cause back injuries..

This is where i have trouble. I've been takeing stretching a lot more seriously in the last few months trying to loosen them up..

Great thread by the way.

[L3]

could someone please post a vid of a proper atg squat?

personally i preffer narrower stance just outside of shoulder width, ive tride a wide stance and for some reason i just cant get the same explosive power on the way up as compared to strictly trying to use my quads witha narrower stance.

[O-Train]

Believe what you want to believe, it won't change anatomy. Still though, some good points. Are you a bodybuilder?


You hit the nail on the head. The glutes are the strongest muscle in the body and combined with the hams are the primary movers out of the hole. The quads really dont come into play until you are out of the hole. BUT and this is a big but...most guys dont squat near deep enough to even marginally get glute and ham development. If you dont believe me then go read a few articles by Louie Simmons or Dave Tate. Ive rarely seen a BB squat correctly not to mention have the correct stance. If you are doing the squat correctly its primarily these muscles...worrying about the knees travelling forward is a moot point if you are squatting correctly...which is back not down. The knees travel forward because of incorrect technique and improper stance. You cannot squat by leading with the knees...whcih most people start off doing. A wide stance enables you to squat heavier because yes you do get more glute and ham invlovement but also a wider base ie pyramid gives you more stability. Again the issue is hip flexibility...with it you wont get pelvic tilt and youll avoid injury. Its the same idea as in sprinting...the primary movers are the glutes and hams...you are not pushing (running) across the track (ground) what you are doing is pulling the ground (track) underneath you. The posterior chain is the least understood and least developed in most beginning and intermediate BB.
P

[natenator]

Believe what you want to believe, it won't change anatomy. Still though, some good points. Are you a bodybuilder?
"The best combination i have found in the last 25 years is a keto diet+cardio+T3+gh+clen. Im talking striated glutes lean...ie 3% etc."

Yes he competes.

[ironwill]

For me my toes point out at the same direction as my knees do, it takes a lot of shear/twising stress direct off the knee...i just focus on going as deep as i can breaking paralell and let my muscles do the rest...I am going to try a few tricks Nicole Ball has taught CC to get a little more sweep in outer quads...not to complicated...lift rest eat repeat..

[O-Train]

"The best combination i have found in the last 25 years is a keto diet+cardio+T3+gh+clen. Im talking striated glutes lean...ie 3% etc."

Yes he competes.

I just meant that muscles are muscles. They are designed to do certain things because of the way human anatomy is set up. I'll do some research but I have a fairly good idea of what I'm talking about.

Found this journal article. It took literally 1 minute to find. It should answer the OP's question:

The effect of stance width on the electromyographical activity of eight superficial thigh muscles during back squat with different bar loads.Paoli A, Marcolin G, Petrone N.
Department of Human Anatomy and Physiology, Section of Physiology, University of Padova, Padova, Italy. antonio.paoli@unipd.it

Many strength trainers believe that varying the stance width during the back squat can target specific muscles of the thigh. The aim of the present work was to test this theory measuring the activation of 8 thigh muscles while performing back squats at 3 stance widths and with 3 different bar loads. Six experienced lifters performed 3 sets of 10 repetitions of squats, each one with a different stance width, using 3 resistances: no load, 30% of 1-repetition maximum (1RM), and 70% 1RM. Sets were separated by 6 minutes of rest. Electromyographic (EMG) surface electrodes were placed on the vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, rectus femoris, semitendinosus, biceps femoris, gluteus maximus, gluteus medium, and adductor maior. Analysis of variance and Scheffè post hoc tests indicated a significant difference in EMG activity only for the gluteus maximus; in particular, there was a higher electrical activity of this muscle when back squats were performed at the maximum stance widths at 0 and 70% 1RM. There were no significant differences concerning the EMG activity of the other analyzed muscles. These findings suggest that a large width is necessary for a greater activation of the gluteus maximus during back squats.

[O-Train]

Here is another one. Also interesting that it mentions Glute Max activity increasing at greater depths but nothing else...hmmm...

The effect of back squat depth on the EMG activity of 4 superficial hip and thigh muscles.Caterisano A, Moss RF, Pellinger TK, Woodruff K, Lewis VC, Booth W, Khadra T.
The Department of Health and Exercise Science, Furman University, 3300 Poinsett Highway, Greenville, South Carolina 29613, USA. tony.caterisano@furman.edu

The purpose of this study was to measure the relative contributions of 4 hip and thigh muscles while performing squats at 3 depths. Ten experienced lifters performed randomized trials of squats at partial, parallel, and full depths, using 100-125&#37; of body weight as resistance. Electromyographic (EMG) surface electrodes were placed on the vastus medialis (VMO), the vastus lateralis, (VL), the biceps femoris (BF), and the gluteus maximus (GM). EMG data were quantified by integration and expressed as a percentage of the total electrical activity of the 4 muscles. Analysis of variance (ANOVA) and Tukey post hoc tests indicated a significant difference (p < 0.001*, p = 0.056**) in the relative contribution of the GM during the concentric phases among the partial- (16.9%*), parallel- (28.0%**), and full-depth (35.4%*) squats. There were no significant differences between the relative contributions of the BF, the VMO, and the VL at different squatting depths during this phase. The results suggest that the GM, rather than the BF, the VMO, or the VL, becomes more active in concentric contraction as squat depth increases.

[O-Train]

Another article, this one looks at parallel squats. It does show that Biceps femoris activity is greater during the ascent phase however this is during a parallel squat. Based on what I know hamstring activity would increase as the knee is straightened because it would allow for increased tension on the muscle and so increased activity. Not sure how much the hamstrings can help "out of the hole" but I'll keep looking.

Stance width and bar load effects on leg muscle activity during the parallel squat.McCaw ST, Melrose DR.
Department of Health, Physical Education and Recreation, Illinois State University, Normal 61790-5120, USA. smccaw@ilstu.edu

PURPOSE: Altering foot stance is often prescribed as a method of isolating muscles during the parallel squat. The purpose of this study was to compare activity in six muscles crossing the hip and/or knee joints when the parallel squat is performed with different stances and bar loads. METHODS: Nine male lifters served as subjects. Within 7 d of determining IRM on the squat with shoulder width stance, surface EMG data were collected (800 Hz) from the rectus femoris, vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, adductor longus, gluteus maximus, and biceps femoris while subjects completed five nonconsecutive reps of the squat using shoulder width, narrow (75&#37; shoulder width), and wide (140% shoulder width) stances with low and high loads (60% and 75% 1RM, respectively). Rep time was controlled. A goniometer on the right knee was used to identify descent and ascent phases. Integrated EMG values were calculated for each muscle during phases of each rep, and the 5-rep means for each subject were used in a repeated measures ANOVA (phase x load x stance, alpha = 0.05). RESULTS: For rectus femoris, vastus medialis, and vastus lateralis, only the load effect was significant. Adductor longus exhibited a stance by phase interaction and a load effect. Gluteus maximus exhibited a load by stance interaction and a phase effect. Biceps femoris activity was highest during the ascent phase. CONCLUSION: The results suggest that stance width does not cause isolation within the quadriceps but does influence muscle activity on the medial thigh and buttocks.

[faller]

Here's a couple vids, just scroll down.. Hope that helps.

http://stronglifts.com/how-not-to-squat-the-2nd-biggest-mistake-you-must-avoid/


http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/exer.htm

[natenator]

you know dude, I love that you bring a scientific mind to your nutrition and training but as far as training goes I think you are trying make it complicated?

It's not rocket science. Train hard, train for progressive overload (either through poundages or time), rest and eat to support your goals.

I know you come at it a little bit difference due to being natural but maybe getting too caught up in the scientific details?

[O-Train]

you know dude, I love that you bring a scientific mind to your nutrition and training but as far as training goes I think you are trying make it complicated?

It's not rocket science. Train hard, train for progressive overload (either through poundages or time), rest and eat to support your goals.

I know you come at it a little bit difference due to being natural but maybe getting too caught up in the scientific details?

It's not because I'm natural. It's because I find it interesting, this is what I went to University for. It's important to know what you're doing in the gym, too many people waste so much time. Once you figure out how your body works you can sit down and create programs that you know will do exactly what they are supposed to do. I'll admit as a natural bodybuilder I can't rely on AAS as a crutch like a lot of people do but that's not why I look at things from a scientific perspective. I'll agree sometimes I get carried away but my work is boring. I need something to stimulate my mind otherwise I'd go crazy.

Almost everything I read talks about the hamstrings as an antagonist during the squat. Those muscles are being used but I wouldn't use the squat as a hamstring exercise. That's just my opinion.

[Josh]

Is this article saying that a wider stance uses the glutes more, and all of the other muscles are affected the same regardless of stance?


I just meant that muscles are muscles. They are designed to do certain things because of the way human anatomy is set up. I'll do some research but I have a fairly good idea of what I'm talking about.

Found this journal article. It took literally 1 minute to find. It should answer the OP's question:

The effect of stance width on the electromyographical activity of eight superficial thigh muscles during back squat with different bar loads.Paoli A, Marcolin G, Petrone N.
Department of Human Anatomy and Physiology, Section of Physiology, University of Padova, Padova, Italy. antonio.paoli@unipd.it

Many strength trainers believe that varying the stance width during the back squat can target specific muscles of the thigh. The aim of the present work was to test this theory measuring the activation of 8 thigh muscles while performing back squats at 3 stance widths and with 3 different bar loads. Six experienced lifters performed 3 sets of 10 repetitions of squats, each one with a different stance width, using 3 resistances: no load, 30% of 1-repetition maximum (1RM), and 70% 1RM. Sets were separated by 6 minutes of rest. Electromyographic (EMG) surface electrodes were placed on the vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, rectus femoris, semitendinosus, biceps femoris, gluteus maximus, gluteus medium, and adductor maior. Analysis of variance and Scheffè post hoc tests indicated a significant difference in EMG activity only for the gluteus maximus; in particular, there was a higher electrical activity of this muscle when back squats were performed at the maximum stance widths at 0 and 70% 1RM. There were no significant differences concerning the EMG activity of the other analyzed muscles. These findings suggest that a large width is necessary for a greater activation of the gluteus maximus during back squats.

[O-Train]

Is this article saying that a wider stance uses the glutes more, and all of the other muscles are affected the same regardless of stance?

Yes. The Gluteus maximus is an external rotator of the hip so it is activated more with a wider stance and also when you point your toes outwards. It is also activated more during deep squats. The other muscles of the theigh (aside from the adductors) don't seem to be significantly effected by stance. I have read some articles suggesting the VMO (tear drop) is activated more during deep knee flexion so a deep ROM may also be beneficial for this area.

Use whatever stance feels comfortable. I personally wouldn't use an extremely wide stance or a narrow stance although you will feel a narrow stance more in your quads and a wide stance more in your glutes (because less glute activation means more quad and you still have to lift the weight with something).

[Josh]

Cool. Thanks again.

[natenator]

It's not because I'm natural. It's because I find it interesting, this is what I went to University for. It's important to know what you're doing in the gym, too many people waste so much time. Once you figure out how your body works you can sit down and create programs that you know will do exactly what they are supposed to do. I'll admit as a natural bodybuilder I can't rely on AAS as a crutch like a lot of people do but that's not why I look at things from a scientific perspective. I'll agree sometimes I get carried away but my work is boring. I need something to stimulate my mind otherwise I'd go crazy.

Almost everything I read talks about the hamstrings as an antagonist during the squat. Those muscles are being used but I wouldn't use the squat as a hamstring exercise. That's just my opinion.
nobody would classify them as a hamstring exercise but the gluts and hams have more involvement in a back squat than the quads do.

I have no problem with stimulating the mind as I also enjoy breaking what we do down into science but it's not all about what a journal paper says. There are plenty of big guys out there that couldn't read a pubmed journal to save their lives but they sure know how to pound the weights.

Figuring out YOUR body you can't get from a study. Every one of us have different mechanics of our muscles and limbs and natural motion. For example, I have to bend over slightly when doing lateral raises to properly hit the medial deltoid whereas I know guys who can hit it just fine standing perfectly upright. Everyone is different and a journal trying to articulate proper mechanics for *all* simply fails on the individual level.

FYI: It wasn't a bash on you. I dig the fact you bring a scientific mind to your posts. I wish more people thought like you do in this manner. But, there is a fine line. That's all I am trying to say.

[Praetorian]

Believe what you want to believe, it won't change anatomy. Still though, some good points. Are you a bodybuilder?

I am top three at the National Level if that makes any difference. As far as Im concerned the real test is what you are actually squatting and your hamstring development. Scientfic articles relating &#37; of stimulation is fine and dandy but they dont mean much when you compare athletes one who squats deep and heavy with a correct stance and one who does not. After 25 years of hardcore training starting in powerlifting with a PR of 748lbs raw I think i just might know which muscles work the most and get the best development when squatting.
Every single athlete I have trained and helped perfect their squat technique has gone on to much better hamstring development...not to mention every lifter at Westside under Louie Simmons.
PS. Ive had chiropractors, medical doctors, and kinesiologists as clients...they all squatted incorrectly at the beginning.
Heres a great article.

Pay attention to the part explaining how to box squat...in essence its identical to the regualr squat as Louie explains.
P


Box Squatting
By: Louie Simmons
Box squatting is the most effective method to produce a first-rate squat. This is, in my opinion, the safest way to squat because you don't use as much weight as you would with a regular squat.
Let me say first that, no, they won't hurt your spine, you don't use1000 lbs. on a 25 inch tall box, you don't rock on the box, you don't touch and go, and there is no need to do regular power squats before a meet. No knee wraps are worn nor are the straps of the suit pulled up.
By doing sets of 2 reps for at least 8 sets with short rest periods, you will get about a 200 lb. carryover to your regular squat. Two of our lifters finished their lifting cycle before a meet with 8 sets of 2 reps with 505 lbs. off a slightly below parallel box, and both squatted 700 for a meet PR One was competing in the 242s and the other as a 275. Two years before, in his first meet, our 275 pounder squatted 465 - quite an improvement!
There are many advantages to box squatting. One of the most important is recuperation. You can train more often on a box than you can doing regular squats. The original Westside boys (Culver City, CA) did them three times a week, which I feel is a bit extreme, but they paved the way for this type of training. We do them for the squat part of our workout on Fridays and occasionally on Mondays to build hip and low back power for deadlifting. The NBA's Utah Jazz do box squats for the same reason - recuperation. Greg Shepherd, their strength coach, is a former member of the Culver City gym.
The second reason is equally important. It is generally accepted that you should keep your shins perpendicular to the floor when squatting. With box squatting, you can go past this point (that is, an imaginary line drawn from your ankle to your knee will point toward your body), which places all the stress on the major squatting muscles- hips, glutes, lower back, and hamstrings. This is a tremendous advantage.
Thirdly, you don't have to ask anyone if you were parallel. Once you establish a below parallel height, all of your squats will be just that -below parallel. I have seen it over and over. As the weights get heavier, the squats get higher. This can't happen with box squats.
If your hips are weak, use a below parallel box with a wide stance. If you need low back power, use a close stance, below parallel. If your quads are weak, work on a parallel box. If you have a sticking point about 2 inches above parallel, as is common, then work on a box that is 2 inches above parallel. Our advanced
Westside Barbell www.westside-barbell.com
squatters use all below parallel boxes. This builds so much power out of the hole that there will be no sticking points.
As an added bonus, box squats will build the deadlift as well by overloading the hips and lower back muscles. Your ability to explode off the floor will increase greatly. One of our 275 pounders, Jerry Obradovich, put 50 lbs. on his dead lift in 3 months by doing extra box squats during that time period, going from 672 to 722 at the 1994 APF Junior Nationals. Chuck Vogelpohl deadlifts only about once in 8 weeks yet pulls 793 in the 242s. Chuck relies on wide box squats on a low, 12-inch box and does a lot of reverse hypers&#174;5356,359 and 6,491,607b2 and chest-supported rows.
Now, how do you do a box squat? They are performed just like regular squats. Fill your abdomen with air, and push out against your belt. Push your knees out as far as possible to the sides and with a tightly arched back, squat back, not down, until you completely sit on the box. Every muscle is kept tight while on the box with the exception of the hip flexors. By releasing and then contracting the hip flexors and arching the upper back, you will jump off the box, building tremendous starting strength. Remember to sit back and down, not straight down. Your hamstrings will be strengthened to a high degree, which is essential. Many don't know this, but the hamstrings are hip extensors. Some great squatters have large quads and some do not, but they all have large hamstrings where they tie into the glutes. Remember to sit on the box completely and flex off.
Now, how do you know how much you can full squat if you box squat all the time? Well, let's say you have squatted 600 lbs. in a meet and decided to box squat. Let's say you can do 550 off a parallel box; that's a 50-lb. carry-over. Now you are doing only box squats and you take a weight 4-6 weeks into the cycle. You hit a 575 squat, a 25-lb. jump on that particular box. This will carry over to your 600 contest best. So now expect a 625 at your next meet.
I recommend that you train with 65-82% of your box record on each particular box height that you use. Change box heights every 3-4 weeks. Do not base the training weight on your full squat record! Box squats are much harder than full squats! Do 8-12 sets of 2 reps with 1 minute rest between sets. This is a tough workout! The week that you reach 82%, reduce the sets to 6. Don't train with more than 82%. You can try a max the after you train with 82%. If you are going to a meet, take a weight 2 weeks before the meet. The week before the meet use 70% for 6-8 sets.
This type of squatting is hard work, but each rep shouldn't be hard. Don't get psyched up to do your sets. We have found that 2 reps is ideal because any more may cause bicipital tendonitis and if you are doing 12 sets, you are doing 12 first reps per workout. After all, the first rep is the most important one. This will make your contest squat much better. Our most talented lifters will do best on
Westside Barbell www.westside-barbell.com
their first rep and then tire quickly whereas our lower skilled people will do better after the first rep is completed because they use the first rep as a body awareness tool. As they become more skilled, their first rep will be their best.
I know box squatting is not common, mostly because no one knows how do them. After reading this or watching my squat tape you should be fully aware of the benefits. Many great squatters have done box squats including Marv Phillips, Larry Kidney, Roger Estep, Matt Dimel, and of course George Fern, who did an 853 squat in track shorts in 1970. If box squats didn't work, we wouldn't do them. We have 20 lifters who have squatted over 700 lbs. in a meet including a 198 who has done 804. 1 hope this article clears up any misconceptions and leads to great success on the lifting platform.

[MAJIN VEGETA]

I dont like Dave Palumbo form personaly, seems to be leaning forward to much. http://transform.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/72/1/

But I do like How TOM PLATZ does his

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MAJIN VEGETA

[O-Train]

I still disagree. I don't doubt you know what you're talking about but to get out of the hole you need big time input from the quads. Nothing else extends the knee and at the bottom of a squat you are in deep knee flexion (which is one of the actions of the hamstrings). So how are the hamstrings causing extension at the hip while not also causing knee flexion? Yes hamstings work during a squat, but if they were contracting strongly out of the hole like you mentioned than how is a person able to get out of the hole at all. It would be like trying to do a bicep curl while trying to do a pressdown at the same time.

I know the hamstrings are used during a squat, but I think they are more heavily incorporated during the upper portion of the ascent not the bottom. Out of the hole is all quads and glutes. I enjoy these kind of discussions.

[Shortdave]

The hamstrings and glutes shoot you out of the hole because you are not so much trying to straighten your knees as you are trying to straighten up at the hips. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is the way I have always approached squats, lots and lots of hip drive.

[O-Train]

The hamstrings and glutes shoot you out of the hole because you are not so much trying to straighten your knees as you are trying to straighten up at the hips. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is the way I have always approached squats, lots and lots of hip drive.

Yeah, but the quads and hamstrings are antagonistic muscle groups so how does that work? If the hamstrings are involved in driving your hips upwards they would be keeping your knees flexed at the same time.

[Praetorian]

I still disagree. I don't doubt you know what you're talking about but to get out of the hole you need big time input from the quads. Nothing else extends the knee and at the bottom of a squat you are in deep knee flexion (which is one of the actions of the hamstrings). So how are the hamstrings causing extension at the hip while not also causing knee flexion? Yes hamstings work during a squat, but if they were contracting strongly out of the hole like you mentioned than how is a person able to get out of the hole at all. It would be like trying to do a bicep curl while trying to do a pressdown at the same time.

I know the hamstrings are used during a squat, but I think they are more heavily incorporated during the upper portion of the ascent not the bottom. Out of the hole is all quads and glutes. I enjoy these kind of discussions.

You are overanalyzing things and ignoring what hundreds if not thousands of athletes instinctively know without even understanding anatomy or physiology.
Sometimes its better to put down the book and get under the bar. I have posted articles by Louie Simmons and Dave Tate probably the worlds highest authority on lifting and both are saying the hamstrings are key muscles out of the hole and in the squat. Not to mention all you have to do is look at the overall hamstring development of these athletes who havent even seen a leg curl machine. This is the very reason why most people...including those very well schooled in anatomy, physiology, biomechanics etc still cannot squat correctly. According to what you are saying if these people undertand the function of the muscle and how it works ie flexion or extension as well as the plane of movement than logically they should have perfect squattting technique. But we all know this is not the case...why...because without time under the bar (ie experience) with significant weight and an experienced guide they start out learning incorrect form day one.
To make things very simple all you need to do is perform the squat as proposed by Louie, Dave, or myself and feel what muscles are involved and at what point in time. As i said look at those who squat correctly and at their hamstring development...ask them where it came from and inevitably they will tell you deep full squats with correct form. This is indisputable evidence that you can ignore if you like...but give me a reason to think otherwise and i may listen..until then your point falls on deaf ears.
P

[Praetorian]

The hamstrings and glutes shoot you out of the hole because you are not so much trying to straighten your knees as you are trying to straighten up at the hips. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is the way I have always approached squats, lots and lots of hip drive.

Well put...the hams are acting as hip extensors as stated in the article by Louie Simmons. Try doing box squats below parallel and using no hamsrings off the box...just glutes and quads...youll be stuck to the box like glue.
P

[Shortdave]

O_Hurley, are you doing a close stance, knees way in front front of your toes, bodybuilder type squat? Like this guy, especially at 24 seconds in
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I can see how squatting like that would take a lot of the emphasis off of the hams.
I am not saying you are squatting like that, but I am asking if you do.

[O-Train]

Well put...the hams are acting as hip extensors as stated in the article by Louie Simmons. Try doing box squats below parallel and using no hamsrings off the box...just glutes and quads...youll be stuck to the box like glue.
P

Muscles pull on both ends...ignoring what's going on at the knee is just dumb.

[O-Train]

O_Hurley, are you doing a close stance, knees way in front front of your toes, bodybuilder type squat? Like this guy, especially at 24 seconds in
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I can see how squatting like that would take a lot of the emphasis off of the hams.
I am not saying you are squatting like that, but I am asking if you do.

No, his form isn't very good. I sit back when I squat. It took me a while to develop enough flexibility in my hips and hamstrings. I don't go as low as you guys do probably. I go down until I feel myself start to lose an anterior pelvic tilt (butt tucking under). Still need to work on my flexibility.

When I was talking about coming out of the hole though I was assuming butt almost touching heels, so full ROM. I just don't think its right to ignore what the quads are doing. He mentioned not using the hamstrings but in actual fact all you need is quads for knee extension and glutes for hip flexion. Those are the key muscles. Hamstrings assist the glutes but actually impede the quads. Also one of the studies showed that hamstring activity decreased as people became better adapted to the squat. Maybe they were squatting incorrectly but regardless of form it's the same basic movement.

I'll stick to my Romanian deadlifts, good mornings and GHR. I'm done debating.

[AlladdinSane]

I'm done debating.

Good.

[faller]

I've enjoyed the debate... I'm fairly new to squating even though i've been doing this for close to 30 years. Long story short i almost took my leg off at the knee with a chainsaw a few years back. I recovered and was able to work but was never able to work and squat, it just killed my knee. Now that i've changed job's i'm able to squat but i've found it's a huge learning curve, i think it's one of the most technical movement's in the compound lift's.

I read everything i can on squating, and i especially like hearing everyone's take on it. So thank's to everyone's input here, i got a lot out of it. :a+

[Praetorian]

No, his form isn't very good. I sit back when I squat. It took me a while to develop enough flexibility in my hips and hamstrings. I don't go as low as you guys do probably. I go down until I feel myself start to lose an anterior pelvic tilt (butt tucking under). Still need to work on my flexibility.

When I was talking about coming out of the hole though I was assuming butt almost touching heels, so full ROM. I just don't think its right to ignore what the quads are doing. He mentioned not using the hamstrings but in actual fact all you need is quads for knee extension and glutes for hip flexion. Those are the key muscles. Hamstrings assist the glutes but actually impede the quads. Also one of the studies showed that hamstring activity decreased as people became better adapted to the squat. Maybe they were squatting incorrectly but regardless of form it's the same basic movement.

I'll stick to my Romanian deadlifts, good mornings and GHR. I'm done debating.

O you must have missed the part where I said full deep squats are one of the best ham exercises next to the GHR...i think we are in agreement on that one.
P ;o)

[tex]

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[Praetorian]

Great post Tex!
P

[O-Train]

O you must have missed the part where I said full deep squats are one of the best ham exercises next to the GHR...i think we are in agreement on that one.
P ;o)

I think we're in agreement on a lot of things. Sorry AlladinSane, this will be my last post and no more debating. So we agree that good squat form involves deep ROM while sitting back into the squat. Having shins roughly perpendicular with the ground.

So when you sit back into a squat it loads the hips a lot more than the knees. Lets say hypothetically a 500lb squat puts 450lbs on the hips and 50lbs on the knee joint. We can both agree I think that the glute muscles are the most powerful hip extensors but because most of the load is applied to the hip joint the hamstrings have to help. I imagine the more you "sit back" and the heavier you go the more hamstring activation will occur. That being said the hamstings produce an opposing force to the quads at the knee joint. So even though the quads don't have to apply a great deal of force to extend the knee the force must increase as the hamstrings produce an opposing force.

I think hamstring activity during a squat allows the body to compensate for the large load applied to the hip joint which also forces the quads to compensate for the hamstings pulling on the knee. I would imagine the quads would always have to produce more force than the hamstrings (otherwise no knee extension could occur) but that doesn't mean squats arn't an effective hamstring exercise. This is especially true if the squats are done in the way you described and hamstring input would diminish with an increased demand for knee extension (like squats done with a lot of forward knee travel).

[Josh]

I used sort of an in-between stance today. Wider than shoulders, but not as far as what power lifters might do. I went super deep, and felt pretty good about my form. It could still be better though.

[Bowlcut]

I used sort of an in-between stance today. Wider than shoulders, but not as far as what power lifters might do. I went super deep, and felt pretty good about my form. It could still be better though.

Super wide can get tough on your hips and groin and the only way PLers get away with it is most use a set of briefs on their squat days.

[O-Train]

I thought this was a good video. I'm not sure if I'm driving w/ my hips properly out of the bottom. Going to try and figure it out next time I squat.

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[faller]

Man i don't know about that. Look down?, first time i ever heard of that. It didn't look right to me, sure would be interested in hearing some opinions on this vid.

o_Hurley isn't this exercise a pain in the ass to figure out, lol.

[O-Train]

Man i don't know about that. Look down?, first time i ever heard of that. It didn't look right to me, sure would be interested in hearing some opinions on this vid.

o_Hurley isn't this exercise a pain in the ass to figure out, lol.

I think he talks about looking down more as a learning tool to put the emphasis on the hip drive out of the hole. What he's saying is that if you keep your head up and lead with your chest you won't be able to drive with your hips (glutes/hamstrings) properly.

Keeping your head up is also a learning tool to keep people from rounding their back. Once you figure out how to drive w/ your hips and keep a proper curvature of your spine you can look wherever you want and it shouldn't matter.

[monkey]

This thread has obviously gotten scientific at some point, but my personal experience with squat kinda supports the fact that a PROPER squat will target the harmstring and glutes.

I am tall and have long legs and all that stuff. I do squat wide for several reasons, but the major one simply being that it allows me to go deep without "breaking" in on my back. The moment I go closer, I loose the ability to sit back properly and reach a deep squat ( just the way I am built maybe).

Back then when i sqatted I probably did it wrong but still saw some pretty nice development in my quads. Over the past few years, I have improved my squat significantly. I simply realized that I had overdeveloped quads when compared to everything else. I had to go the hard way and drop a lot of weight and simply work my way up with a proper form and ROM.
This enabled me to develop the best gluts and harmstrings I ever had. Even now, a heavy and proper squat will hit my glutes harder then it will hit my quads, as long as I sit back properly and go nice and low.

Most people that I see load up the bar and dont go deep enough and dont sit back...

Anyways, thats just my experience... obviously I am still working on evening my quad and harmstring proportions out..


.****, I love squats!

[Lifter24]

Great thread guys! Learnin lots...

[O-Train]

I would like to add that when a squat is done properly the glute and hamstring muscles most influence hip drive which is the most important aspect of a squat. I noticed this the most when sitting back during a box squat which I think is helping my squat form a lot and I would recommend this exercise to anyone.

So yeah...I was wrong...

[Praetorian]

I would have to disagree with the video...it is contrary to everything taught about proper box squatting and carrying that over to the regular squat.
Add any signficant weight and youll be kissing the floor. The head and traps drive first upward into the bar initiating the hip drive etc.
P

[tex]

^^ drive into the bar and try to pull is apart with your hands....i agree....

[RagingRandy]

The trainer is the video is quite a character. Here is a sample of his wisdom....There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy.

You can find more here....http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Wit_and_Wisdom_of_Mark_Rippetoe