Are gains more difficult to achieve naturally after using AAS?

[WORLD]

Is this fact or fiction:

After using AAS, your training will never be the same. It is harder to put on muscle naturally and gains will be slower.

To clarify with an example:

Someone goes through a few cycles and decides to stop using AAS. Will his gains be much slower than they were before he ever used steroids? Same goes for someone who is off cycle but plans to go back on.

If you argue its true, can you provide some support to back up your answer? :D

[Seth]

I think people come to that conclusion for 2 reasons. For starters, the perception of gains will obviously be very different. Gaining 2 pounds per month after have gained 5/months in the past will seem less than when you don't have that comparison reference. And second, after doing cycles, the person will most likely be either closer or past their natural limit, which naturally makes gains slow down(or stop). I'm not saying they do not slow down, I just think that even if they do, its not as dramatic as some people say

[Lukin2grow]

IMO I highly doubt it. I have never seen anything suggesting that on any BB site I've frequented. I've also never seen any physician notes on certain legal steroids like Anadrol that intimate such a thing. Muscle cells are muscle cells. They aren't going to change the way they break down and hypertrophy. Test and it's derivatives mainly work by makeing the conditions of growth unbelievably favourable. At least that's the general idea I've gotten...

[Dk]

as long as your bodys levels return the normal, nothing can possibly have changed from when you were natural as far as your bodys development goes.

and to go along with that, Exactly what seth said

[JonnyO]

I'd say naturally it's feasible to accumulate around 5lbs tops of LBM, as to enhanced a good 10-12lbs of LBM is quite attainable for some a year. If you can put on 5lbs of LBM naturally a year thats really f'ing good and youd have to have everything down perfectly nutrition wise and training wise and be very diligent and dedicated. Hell anything more than 10lbs of pure LBM when enhanced is very very good and you have good genetics for putting on muscle.

[Kronis]

Yes, but only because he's now at, above, or closer to his natural limit.

[Lukin2grow]

"I'd say naturally it's feasible to accumulate around 5lbs tops of LBM, as to enhanced a good 10-12lbs of LBM is quite attainable for some a year. If you can put on 5lbs of LBM naturally a year thats really f'ing good and youd have to have everything down perfectly nutrition wise and training wise and be very diligent and dedicated. Hell anything more than 10lbs of pure LBM when enhanced is very very good and you have good genetics for putting on muscle."

Really? Wow. So obviously when you have someone with my kind of body type, (5'9 ...currently about 145 lbs on a small frame..I look muscular but a small, slim kind of swimmer's body)....It's completely unrealistic to start hitting the weights and expecting to put on 20 to 30 lbs of weight in 6 months? See everyone else can just eat extra food....but I eat at least 3000 calories a day normally. While some are envious and hate me for being able to eat whatever I want and remain slim, I hate it. I'd rather be average size and weight in at at least 165. *sigh*. We're never satisfied with our bodies, are we? :)

[Dk]

"I'd say naturally it's feasible to accumulate around 5lbs tops of LBM, as to enhanced a good 10-12lbs of LBM is quite attainable for some a year. If you can put on 5lbs of LBM naturally a year thats really f'ing good and youd have to have everything down perfectly nutrition wise and training wise and be very diligent and dedicated. Hell anything more than 10lbs of pure LBM when enhanced is very very good and you have good genetics for putting on muscle."

Really? Wow. So obviously when you have someone with my kind of body type, (5'9 ...currently about 145 lbs on a small frame..I look muscular but a small, slim kind of swimmer's body)....It's completely unrealistic to start hitting the weights and expecting to put on 20 to 30 lbs of weight in 6 months? See everyone else can just eat extra food....but I eat at least 3000 calories a day normally. While some are envious and hate me for being able to eat whatever I want and remain slim, I hate it. I'd rather be average size and weight in at at least 165. *sigh*. We're never satisfied with our bodies, are we? :)


Not sure who told you 3000 calories a day was alot bro, but when i was on cycle i was clearing 5000

Im cutting now at about 2500-3000

[O-Train]

I think he means natural before vs. natural afterwards. If everything is the same then gains should be the same but who knows.

I know what you're saying Jonnyo. My first show vs. the second one 2 years later I was only 5lbs heavier. Better conditioning but still probably only maintained 10 more pounds of lean muscle after cutting. Man I hope it's not going to be like that this year. I went from 160@ ~5% to 220 at maybe 18-20% (not sure) in about 12 months. That's more than 20lbs LBM does that make sense?

[BAM]

Yes, but only because he's now at, above, or closer to his natural limit.

yup

[Felinecougar]

IMO I have maintained. Not gained.

[nisser]

Assuming you recover to your normal hormonal state and didn't use AAS to cover up shitty diet/workout routine/sleeping habits, it should make no difference at all.

[Thorgrim]

Yes, but only because he's now at, above, or closer to his natural limit.

Seth said it first but this is the shorter simpler version. I think the rumor gets started by people who never got their diet and training in order before they started AAS. When they go back to un-enhanced they just don't know what they are doing and think their bodies don't work. The same training methods and eating habits that produce gains while on often don't work when clean.

[Thorgrim]

It's completely unrealistic to start hitting the weights and expecting to put on 20 to 30 lbs of weight in 6 months? See everyone else can just eat extra food....but I eat at least 3000 calories a day normally. While some are envious and hate me for being able to eat whatever I want and remain slim, I hate it. I'd rather be average size and weight in at at least 165. *sigh*. We're never satisfied with our bodies, are we? :)

When I first started training I was 16 and 130. 3 months later I was 150. I was a bit fatter but not much. I probably gained 15 pounds of muscle in those first 3 months. After that gains slowed significantly. I don't think it is impossible for some people to gain 20-30 pounds in 6 months if they have never trained before and eat properly. I probably gained 20 or very close to it in the first 6 months.

[JonnyO]

I probably gained 20 or very close to it in the first 6 months.

Are you sure it was muscle? Just bec its not visible fat gains doesnt mean it was LBM. Best way is to keep track by getting tested regularly, hydro is best.

[JonnyO]

I think he means natural before vs. natural afterwards. If everything is the same then gains should be the same but who knows.

I know what you're saying Jonnyo. My first show vs. the second one 2 years later I was only 5lbs heavier. Better conditioning but still probably only maintained 10 more pounds of lean muscle after cutting. Man I hope it's not going to be like that this year. I went from 160@ ~5% to 220 at maybe 18-20% (not sure) in about 12 months. That's more than 20lbs LBM does that make sense?

Coming in 10-12lbs heavier in a years span is great gains. Also the longer you are able to maintain that higher body weight the better chance it will be permanent. Alot of people will bulk up to a certain weight and not hold it for very long and go right into prep expecting to come in that much heavier, so longer you can sustain those gains more chance of solidifying it.

[Lukin2grow]

"Not sure who told you 3000 calories a day was alot bro, but when i was on cycle i was clearing 5000"

Oh I strive to eat 5000, but I meant just on average when I wasn't even working out properly. Most people I know seem to eat 2 meals a day and half what I eat and they complain they can't lose weight. I've got the metabolism of a hummingbird. It's annoying when you're trying to bulk up.

[rated_rko]

my honest personal opinion on the fact...is once off the best thing i think is to work ur ass off...maintain or reach the limits ur body got to while on...and be as lean as possible....for me..when on im thick as hell...but when off i like to have a nice lean look...sure it might be huge but the leaner the meaner you look :P

[kloan]

Not sure who told you 3000 calories a day was alot bro, but when i was on cycle i was clearing 5000

Im cutting now at about 2500-3000

depends on height and weight as well tho... if i consumed 5000 calories/day i'd be a fat mofo.. i'm struggling as it is right now to keep the fat gain minimal, and i'm eating around 2500-3000 calories/day. but i'm 5'6.5", 183lbs.

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

As for me if im bulking up i need 6000+ calories a day in order to see gains when i cut i start with 4000 calories and work my way down to 3000. I have stopped anabolics for quite a while now and have maintained my weight maybe gained a couple extra pounds this winter LBM.

[bluenose]

I think at best a 5-7 pound gain per year could be achieved. Like JonnyO was saying everything has to be in check for this to happen and most people won't eat that clean. It also depends on your genetics and how well you respond to weight training.

[Ritch]

I think at best a 5-7 pound gain per year could be achieved. Like JonnyO was saying everything has to be in check for this to happen and most people won't eat that clean. It also depends on your genetics and how well you respond to weight training.

I can`t resist this one... And the most important factor would be the MUSCLE TECH supplements. Ah, ha, ha... Just kidding dude, if that`s you in the avatar, that`s a very well developped body. Seriously good work and welcome to CBB. Just be prepared for some ball busting with the muscle tech stuff.

[natenator]

Not sure who told you 3000 calories a day was alot bro, but when i was on cycle i was clearing 5000

Im cutting now at about 2500-3000
everyone is different. Some people can bulk on 3000 calories whereas some may need 5000 or 6000. To paint everyone with the same brush is foolish.

[Kronis]

I can`t resist this one... And the most important factor would be the MUSCLE TECH supplements. Ah, ha, ha... Just kidding dude, if that`s you in the avatar, that`s a very well developped body. Seriously good work and welcome to CBB. Just be prepared for some ball busting with the muscle tech stuff.

Haha, muscletech is fun to make fun of because their ads can be ridiculous but you know we'd all love to be sponsored by them.


everyone is different. Some people can bulk on 3000 calories whereas some may need 5000 or 6000. To paint everyone with the same brush is foolish.
I fully agree.

[bluenose]

I can`t resist this one... And the most important factor would be the MUSCLE TECH supplements. Ah, ha, ha... Just kidding dude, if that`s you in the avatar, that`s a very well developped body. Seriously good work and welcome to CBB. Just be prepared for some ball busting with the muscle tech stuff.

Maybe people would like them better if they got them for free! LOL Not here to pimp MT but they have treated me great and I have no complaints. Also, been here for a bit I lust been lurking more than anything.

Yes, that is me!

[Thorgrim]

Are you sure it was muscle? Just bec its not visible fat gains doesnt mean it was LBM. Best way is to keep track by getting tested regularly, hydro is best.

I am not 100% sure but I think this is a good estimate. I was only 16 so didn't really think to test body composition. I was stronger pound for pound and all my measurements went up quite a bit except waist. Visually I wasn't fatter either so I think saying 3/4 of the gained weight was muscle is a safe bet.

I use calipers now along with the scale and mirror to get a good idea if things are working or not. I don't really have any desire to compete on stage I like powerlifting and MMA more so this is accurate enough for me.

[bigben]

The next question I'd like to throw out to debate, is whether using anabolics can increase your otherwise natural limits. Ie, does the former user of AAS hold an unfair advantage? If so, for how long?

[Dk]

everyone is different. Some people can bulk on 3000 calories whereas some may need 5000 or 6000. To paint everyone with the same brush is foolish.

i know its different for people.

But the way it was put was that he was eating 3000 calories a day but not gettin bigger, so he DOES fall into the category where he needs more, he implied he thought 3000 was more then enough, so i was just pointing out its not actually that much, and since hes not growing on it, bump it up.


edit: posted above before readin the updated thread, just noticed his post at post #17, guess he does plan on eating more haha

[WORLD]

The next question I'd like to throw out to debate, is whether using anabolics can increase your otherwise natural limits. Ie, does the former user of AAS hold an unfair advantage? If so, for how long?

That's also a good one.

[O-Train]

The next question I'd like to throw out to debate, is whether using anabolics can increase your otherwise natural limits. Ie, does the former user of AAS hold an unfair advantage? If so, for how long?

I think so. While on you could get yourself to a point where you could never get naturally (at least not as quickly anyways). Then come off and maintain it. So yeah, it would be a huge advantage. A lot of natural bb federations consider "natural" as being 5 years drug free. Although I still think building a base while on would give you a big headstart.

[tiramisu]

At a 500 calorie a day surplus a young healthy male novice can put on weight and strength that would make most people believe they were on steroids especially if they start small good genes. Football coaches have been putting on 30-50 pounds on juniors for a lot of years with not much more than the basic lifts three times a week and a gallon of milk a day.

[O-Train]

Coming in 10-12lbs heavier in a years span is great gains. Also the longer you are able to maintain that higher body weight the better chance it will be permanent. Alot of people will bulk up to a certain weight and not hold it for very long and go right into prep expecting to come in that much heavier, so longer you can sustain those gains more chance of solidifying it.

Yeah I agree. I've found that just walking around at a heavier weight has helped me put on muscle in my legs. The big issue I think is maintaining weight while dieting down. It's really hard to figure out how much muscle you put on if you arn't at the same low bf%. Although by cutting down to the low bf% you lose some muscle. I have to lose weight really slowly and use cardio sparingly.

This is off topic but did you notice from DC style training your triceps got a lot bigger? Granted I'm fatter but my arms grew 2 1/2'' in about 12 months and most of it was triceps. That's the biggest change I've noticed.