Fatigue vs. Failure

[Drummer]

I had an educated trainer brief me on FATIGUE vs. FAILURE. he was telling me that you can fail without fatiguing, or vice versa. Failure was when you couldnt possibly lift another rep, fatigue is when the "burn" is what becomes to painful to lift reps (yes, you can fail because of fatigue, but thats not the point here... 20 rep sets dont apply to what he was saying).

Anyhow, he was explaining damaging muscle fibers for growth and sheath thickness (related to strenght and endurance, like in calves). He went on to tell me that a proper rep range (which may be different for me and for you) would give you a "good burn, and complete failure". Im going to talk to him more about this, and im going to look into it on the net if i can. Any opinions on the matter are welcome!

~DB~

[O-Train]

"Burn" refers to pH. Skeletal muscle contraction can only take place within a certain environment. So the burn is hydrogen ions (and also lactate) being released which inhibits muscle contraction. Although like you mentioned failure can also occur when energy stores are diminished and/or muscle force output does not meet/exceed demand. Failure vs. fatigure is too general/simplified...and it doesn't fit perfectly. I think I noticed something similar in another of your threads. I'll address it seperately.

[Drummer]

no prob, any input is welcome

[#8]

Failure is too negative. Training to SUCCESS is more appropriate, its all in your head right....?

[Drummer]

i mean complete concentric failure - cant lift another rep despite your best efforts.

[gordi]

I've found that, for me personally, training to relative failure works really really well but training to absolute failure tends to burn me out without producing a lot of gains.

Here's how Scott Abel defines relative and absolute failure: "Relative" failure means you can't complete another rep. It's different from "absolute" failure, in which the muscle can no longer contract. You achieve absolute failure using techniques like forced reps and heavy negatives, which I don't recommend. They fatigue not only the muscles, but the body as well, and I don't think they work for physique enhancement.

I'd say that what you have been told makes a lot of sense, and it's probably worthwhile to put conscious effort into finding a weight & rep-range combo that gets you a nice burn and a full pump around the same time that you get to the point where it takes max effort to keep moving the weight.

I'd guess that for some body parts it'd work best with moderately heavy weights and higher reps and for other parts you'd want to go nice and heavy with lower reps. I'm going to try messing around with this idea a bit.

[Drummer]

Yea i agree with that 100%. I never use forced reps, i just push to complete concentric (on the "push") failure, and it is kept below 8, or i up the weight. I have steadily increased my weight for a year using this - i was out of the gym for 3 years, now i feel really good and strong, training natural. Joints are good... nervous system good... cardio decent.

~DB~

[buildinthaskinnys]

I get it but really, the wording "complete failure" is very relative also, after lifting 150 lbs as many times as you can until you cant do one more would be complete, except the fact that you could drop 50 lbs immediately and countinue on, now as you do this you are fatigueing the muscle more and more and all the by products of contraction will be forming until you feel the "burn".

Training and especially with high reps your body will adapt to process the lactic acid buildup, so that you will be able to do more and more reps with the same weight without experiencing the burn.

In my opinion any amount of effort required to lift or move an object will in effect fatigue the muscle, and to a certain degree your central nervous system.

[Drummer]

^^

the point was not clear enough i guess... failure in the context that you could not lift 8 reps of a specific weight. Even 7 is good for me. For me that defines an intense set. Fatigue, as i think of it, is when im repping out 15 and the muscles are burning (refer to O hurly's post) and i stop because of that. Its just a matter of perspective. For me, heavy, low rep, low set count, high intensity has worked. Its probably not for everyone, thats why its a VS thread... to see what other ppl use.

~DB~

[buildinthaskinnys]

getting a burn is one thing but fatigue is another, from my point of view. calves are a unique part of anatomy because the seem to never pump up only burn, but i found for me when i started training with high reps 20 TO 25 and then going heavier with less reps, i didnt feel as much of a burn doing 12 reps to failure. It seems to me that my body adapted, and started to process these by-products of contraction more efficiently.

this is a very interesting topic!