BCAA vs L-leucine

[Ritch]

Which do you guys feel would be best to use pre, during and post workout. It seems companies are favoring leucine pre workout. Some even say the other bcaa`s compete with the leucine for absorption making pure leucine the better choice. From what I know the BCAA`s recuce post workout soreness and delay fatigue during training, but the leucine exerts the greatest anabolic effects it seems. Any thoughts, experience between the two?

[natenator]

leucine is directly responsible for increased protein synthesis.

[icey_boi]

why not take both?

[natenator]

fyi: leucine is part of the BCAA profile. I believe its a 2:1:1 ratio.

[petem]

BCAA's come in a 2:1:1 ratio (leucine being the 2). There is some thought that doubling that ratio (4:1:1), would be benificial. Search around for some writing by Layne Norton - I seem to remember him writing about it.

[O-Train]

Best application for either that I can see is posworkout. In terms of anabolic effects. Not going to happen preworkout or during, at best maybe you would be slightly less catabolic. Did anything you read mention a very large insulin response to leucine because it is so readily oxidized? You probably wouldn't get a completely correct answer to your question no matter who you ask. Why the need for supplementation during the workout. I'm just curious why people do the things they do and what the reasoning is.

For me, ideally. I'd eat something like a peanut butter sandwich maybe 30-60 minutes before I workout. During is just water. Then after something like a whey protein shake with some simple sugars or WMS and some cottage cheese. Then go home and have a huge plate of pasta.

Can anyone say for certain that they used BCAA's and/or Leucine and it worked better than say a whey protein isolate or a milk protein isolate. Something along the lines of: "I started using BCAA's/Leucine and I gained more muscle without otherwise altering my diet." Arn't these supplements fairly expensive?

[Ritch]

I find your recommendation of eating a peanut butter sandwhich very strange as there is no protein and deliberatley going out of my way to have a fat+carb meal to me is not something I`d do, as your recommendation of having a big plate of pasta (carb only) after the post workout drink. But if it works for you, that`s cool.

As far as results, I can certainly vouch that BCAA 20 grams or so, taken pre during and post increased my ability to train, recover and made me leaner. At one point I was using 1000grams a month or so. Cost wise it`s not that bad, but now would want to use that much over a 3 month period. Was thinking only on training days. So 20 grams total used 4 days a week would last 12 weeks. 5grams pre workout, 5 grams during mixed in gatorade, 5 grams post workout with gatorade, creatine, then 20 mins later whey shake. 5 grams before next meal.

[O-Train]

I find your recommendation of eating a peanut butter sandwhich very strange as there is no protein and deliberatley going out of my way to have a fat+carb meal to me is not something I`d do, as your recommendation of having a big plate of pasta (carb only) after the post workout drink. But if it works for you, that`s cool.

As far as results, I can certainly vouch that BCAA 20 grams or so, taken pre during and post increased my ability to train, recover and made me leaner. At one point I was using 1000grams a month or so. Cost wise it`s not that bad, but now would want to use that much over a 3 month period. Was thinking only on training days. So 20 grams total used 4 days a week would last 12 weeks. 5grams pre workout, 5 grams during mixed in gatorade, 5 grams post workout with gatorade, creatine, then 20 mins later whey shake. 5 grams before next meal.

Yeah but you never mentioned muscle. Do you put on more muscle. Training is about blood glucose, glyocogen stores, creatine phosphate stores, how much sleep you got, mindset, cortisol levels etc etc...Why would eating some amino acids do anything unless you just think they do in which case you're mind is doing all the work anyways?

The pb sandwich has a good macro breakdown, and it does have protein. Keeps blood glucose levels steady so I don't get tired. Postworkout it's all about replenishing glyocogen stores. Who wants to stay lean, I want to get big :).

[Ritch]

True I never mentioned muscle. As a matter of fact I don`t know if using either of them would assist in doing so. So don`t think my mind was doing all the work Hurley because I never said it worked to gain muscle. I was cutting and it allowed me to keep my weights very close to what they were before cutting calories, muscles staying fuller and stomach getting flatter.

As far as discussing macro`s. I`m done with that. This is such an individual thing that is it works for you, it works for you. There is a really good thread my Gregg Valentino on MD talking about this right now. Every approach has it`s rights and wrongs, just a matter of finding what`s right for you. I apploligize if it sounded like I was attacking your views by saying I wouldn`t follow your nutritional beliefs.

[O-Train]

True I never mentioned muscle. As a matter of fact I don`t know if using either of them would assist in doing so. So don`t think my mind was doing all the work Hurley because I never said it worked to gain muscle. I was cutting and it allowed me to keep my weights very close to what they were before cutting calories, muscles staying fuller and stomach getting flatter.

As far as discussing macro`s. I`m done with that. This is such an individual thing that is it works for you, it works for you. There is a really good thread my Gregg Valentino on MD talking about this right now. Every approach has it`s rights and wrongs, just a matter of finding what`s right for you. I apploligize if it sounded like I was attacking your views by saying I wouldn`t follow your nutritional beliefs.

I come off as a jerk enough that you shouldn't feel the need to apologize to me. When you say do what works for you are you referring to heritage, lineage. ie. inuit eat one thing and people in the jungle eat something else and that's what works for them? There is something to that for sure. It's an interesting topic. I would have trouble believing anything Valentino says. I think he just talks so people will listen, he craves attention.

I don't think the other amino acids would interfer w/ the absorption of L-leucine but they would obviously compete, which may not matter. I suppose using BCAA's/leucine would be beneficial. They are readily absorbed and if catabolism were an issue they would help to spare muscle from degredation. I still don't know which one I'd pick, the more I read the less sure I am.

Did you read the thread where we were talking about milk protein being optimal for nitrogen balance? Some interesting stuff for sure.

[Ritch]

When I talk about what works for you, I mean everything as a whole that puts you in the direction you want to get big, strong, faster, leaner. Whether it`s liquid vs whole food, drinking chocolate milk pre workout... High carb vs low carb, different macro combinations... Which brings me to what Valentino is saying. He basically says you have to find your own way in this quest for muslce. I agree with this. No one person has all the answers. I used to read his column, but it gets old. I understand how many people can hate him. But not everything he says is off base. It`s hard to remember the good when he talks about sporting oil free arms.

Can`t agree more when you say the more I read the less sure I am. So much conflicting proof out there. That`s why I don`t read the mags anymore. At one point I found myselft questioning everything I thought I knew. The mags make you bounce between training, dieting theory`s too fast. There is always strong science to back what they say, but alot of it`s bullshit. Like lifting 3 seconds up and 3 seconds down being best for hypertrophy. Nobody does that shit, so **** those articles on superior ways to train. Or the food articles, one week fish is good the next, it`s not...

The milk protein read was very good. It`s something I will try soon. If anyone tries this, keep us posted!

[Descimus]

So true, it get soo confusing, reading mags so many contradiction, As for bcca and leucine, i orded a 2 pounds of leucine but it mix soo badly that i havent used it yet.. kinda taste bad also, i mean glutamine powder, creatine powder bcaa powder, then protein powder green + powder at one point i just dont feel i can stomach all this..

[Ritch]

So true, it get soo confusing, reading mags so many contradiction, As for bcca and leucine, i orded a 2 pounds of leucine but it mix soo badly that i havent used it yet.. kinda taste bad also, i mean glutamine powder, creatine powder bcaa powder, then protein powder green + powder at one point i just dont feel i can stomach all this..

Just throw the leucine in your mouth and wash it down brotha! No big deal. Some guys here drink tuna shakes, not that`s sick.

[O-Train]

When I talk about what works for you, I mean everything as a whole that puts you in the direction you want to get big, strong, faster, leaner. Whether it`s liquid vs whole food, drinking chocolate milk pre workout... High carb vs low carb, different macro combinations... Which brings me to what Valentino is saying. He basically says you have to find your own way in this quest for muslce. I agree with this. No one person has all the answers. I used to read his column, but it gets old. I understand how many people can hate him. But not everything he says is off base. It`s hard to remember the good when he talks about sporting oil free arms.

Can`t agree more when you say the more I read the less sure I am. So much conflicting proof out there. That`s why I don`t read the mags anymore. At one point I found myselft questioning everything I thought I knew. The mags make you bounce between training, dieting theory`s too fast. There is always strong science to back what they say, but alot of it`s bullshit. Like lifting 3 seconds up and 3 seconds down being best for hypertrophy. Nobody does that shit, so **** those articles on superior ways to train. Or the food articles, one week fish is good the next, it`s not...

The milk protein read was very good. It`s something I will try soon. If anyone tries this, keep us posted!

Yeah, I've never really read articles in magazines but I'd have to say I'm lucky. I've basically grown up in gyms. Either working at a gym or working out I've been a gym rat since I was old enough to sign up. I guess its impossible to say if anything is "optimal" or if a certain program is the "best" way to train. What I try to do is look at things from a scientific perspective and then apply the theory into practice. I kind of disagree that we are all so different. Perhaps slightly different, but for our purposes in weight training and nutrition everyone is quite similar. Certain things apply to everyone kind of like laws of weight lifting and/or nutrition.

Everyone will tell you different things and everyone and no one will be right. People will spend their entire lives trying to improve their physique and not even catch a glimpse of their true potential. Its amazing that considering how much I've learned how truely ignorant I actually am. What other people do is really not important. Almost all people don't know why they do the things they do and couldn't explain the reason correctly if you asked. Like most professional bodybuilders, don't have a clue.

The best advice I can give anyone should be the #1 law of weight lifting/bodybuilding: Specific adaptation to the imposed demand. It's so simple yet it explains everything. Or if you wanted to make it more general substitute stimulus for demand. If you think about it, we're trying to make our bodies do something it absolutely doesn't want to do. Although it will, if you provide the right stimulus.

[jsv22]

Which do you guys feel would be best to use pre, during and post workout. It seems companies are favoring leucine pre workout. Some even say the other bcaa`s compete with the leucine for absorption making pure leucine the better choice. From what I know the BCAA`s recuce post workout soreness and delay fatigue during training, but the leucine exerts the greatest anabolic effects it seems. Any thoughts, experience between the two?

Ya i agree that BCAAs will decrase fatigue. This could be caused by a decrease in the production of 5-HT thereby effecting 'central fatigue'. But this theory is based moreso for endurance exercise and the evidence isn't that strong IMO. Also, BCAAs are easily oxidized and therefore act similarly to a carbohydrate and act to spare muscle/liver glycogen. Exercise seems to enhance the muscles ability to metabolize BCAAs by activating BC keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH) possiblity because of an increased leucine availablility. I'm not sure how much this would contribute to metabolism since protein oxidation is probably much less then 10% of total energy oxidized (probably 5-8%).

Now my understanding of everything is that carbs increase the rate of protein synthesis ( when taken before and after exercise). The only proteins that are available are those that are in the free amino acid pools situated in the muscle and blood. Since, there is a very limited amount there will be a limited ammout of protein synthesis. Now if amino acids are ingested with carbs this will increase the levels of available amino acids to the muscle. therefore, the increased insulin levels will support the increased amino acid levels in the body leading to a heightened accreditation of protein (and glycogen).
Some proteins/amino acids are highly insulinotropic (slin stimulating) and probably augment protein synthesis via that mechamism (esp. the BCAAs). Proteins have also been shown to stimulate anabolism by directly acting on muscle as well. Interestingly, carbohydrate and protein have an additive positive effect on insulin secretion which will probably augment protein synthesis further.

Leucine has also been shown to act as a nutrient sensor which stimulates anabolism. It probably does so through an increase in insulin secretion (leucine is a potenet insulin secrelogogue). There also seems to be an insulin independent mechanism through which leucine works as well (activation of p70s6k, mTOR, ).

i think that it can be beneficial when taken before and after exercise. I personally prefer to drink only water during a weight training bout (endurance exercise i usually have sugar/salt solution). If you have something to eat or a shake, it takes about 15-30 minutes to really start seeing foodstuffs appear in the blood anyways. Then by the time the concentration starts to decrease in the body it will be time for post-exercise drink/food.
i have never tried leucine, but i think it has it's place when trying to maximize gains in fitness when everything is in place. that means a sound pre and post workout plan.

-jsv

[5151]

Ya i agree that BCAAs will decrase fatigue. This could be caused by a decrease in the production of 5-HT thereby effecting 'central fatigue'. But this theory is based moreso for endurance exercise and the evidence isn't that strong IMO. Also, BCAAs are easily oxidized and therefore act similarly to a carbohydrate and act to spare muscle/liver glycogen. Exercise seems to enhance the muscles ability to metabolize BCAAs by activating BC keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH) possiblity because of an increased leucine availablility. I'm not sure how much this would contribute to metabolism since protein oxidation is probably much less then 10% of total energy oxidized (probably 5-8%).

Now my understanding of everything is that carbs increase the rate of protein synthesis ( when taken before and after exercise). The only proteins that are available are those that are in the free amino acid pools situated in the muscle and blood. Since, there is a very limited amount there will be a limited ammout of protein synthesis. Now if amino acids are ingested with carbs this will increase the levels of available amino acids to the muscle. therefore, the increased insulin levels will support the increased amino acid levels in the body leading to a heightened accreditation of protein (and glycogen).
Some proteins/amino acids are highly insulinotropic (slin stimulating) and probably augment protein synthesis via that mechamism (esp. the BCAAs). Proteins have also been shown to stimulate anabolism by directly acting on muscle as well. Interestingly, carbohydrate and protein have an additive positive effect on insulin secretion which will probably augment protein synthesis further.

Leucine has also been shown to act as a nutrient sensor which stimulates anabolism. It probably does so through an increase in insulin secretion (leucine is a potenet insulin secrelogogue). There also seems to be an insulin independent mechanism through which leucine works as well (activation of p70s6k, mTOR, ).

i think that it can be beneficial when taken before and after exercise. I personally prefer to drink only water during a weight training bout (endurance exercise i usually have sugar/salt solution). If you have something to eat or a shake, it takes about 15-30 minutes to really start seeing foodstuffs appear in the blood anyways. Then by the time the concentration starts to decrease in the body it will be time for post-exercise drink/food.
i have never tried leucine, but i think it has it's place when trying to maximize gains in fitness when everything is in place. that means a sound pre and post workout plan.

-jsv

The BCAA reducing fatigue comes from the fact it competes with tryptophan to cross the BBB. Resulting in a lower Trp:BCAA ratio. Unfortunately it hasn't really panned out in the science. Fatigue in the athlete seems to be exponentially more complicated than 5-HT. The other thing to keep in mind is that by the time you work out most of us have eaten 100g+ of protein anyway so the amount of circulating of all aminos is already present and keeping everything in balance. To look at the 5-10g of aminos taken in the workout window and ignore the other 300gs taken throughout the day is essentially what we do when we base supplementation recommendations off of research based on fasted research.

I like this roundtable:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/jamie-hale/BCAA-roundtable

[Ritch]

Some good answers here. When I used bcaa it was when I was training 2 hours after breakfast. (Most of the time) So having had only one protein meal in me (40grams worth or so) and putting bcaa in my body with a stomach that dosen`t have much food in it maybe explains why I got good resulsts.

After reading the two posts above it once again has me saying the more I read, the more confused I get, in a good way. But even the pro`s have their diversed opinions (read the roundtable link) and views on their values. One does give a dumb answer saying "until I see scientifc proof saying with a hypercaloric diet these work"... Or something along the lines. Did he even try it? If everything he says to his clients is based on scientific proof, he must have some weird advice. Remember science once showed HMB worked... Anyway I give BCAA thumbs up. Go through a kilo in one month and see what it can do for you.

[O-Train]

Ok this is what I would do. I'm posting this more so I remember later, otherwise I'll forget.

Leucine preworkout. I would also include some EFA's and a carbohydrate source. Don't want a big insulin response but aparently Leucine can work somewhat independently of insulin so preworkout is perfect.

Postworkout BCAA's and WMS. You want a huge insulin response and rapid amino acid uptake. The specific carb source isn't important, whatever produces the biggest insulin response. The body is in supercompensation mode so increased protein synthesis can occur. Leucine could work here also but maybe there are unknown benefits from the other amino acids. If I had to pick between BCAA's and Leucine I think pure Leucine may be the best choice. Not sure though.

Throughout the rest of the day a milk protein source would be ideal, like the 4:1 casein:whey ratio that was discussed previously.

[nisser]

The other thing to keep in mind is that by the time you work out most of us have eaten 100g+ of protein anyway so the amount of circulating of all aminos is already present and keeping everything in balance. To look at the 5-10g of aminos taken in the workout window and ignore the other 300gs taken throughout the day is essentially what we do when we base supplementation recommendations off of research based on fasted research.
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I think this is really all that needs to be said. The truth of the matter is that there hasn't and probably never will be a proper clinical study done on the effect of BCAA on protein synthesis/muscle growth. Everything out there has a multitude of variables or is not even looking at the right question.


To me, it all seems like a large marketing scheme. How do we know that the 20g of BCAA someone intakes after workout isn't transaminated via glutamate/ketoglutarate to non-essential aa and is simply acting as regular ol' whey? These metabolic pathways exist for a reason and if you're flushing your system with a large proportion of 3 amino acids, the most logical thing for the body to do is to fix the imbalance. There's really no evidence out there that BCAAs are doing nothing more and when you consider that placebo effect on average has 30% effect (reference: a very smart lady friend who just got her MD, so don't ask for a reference), the benefits are all very likely in the head.

It may or may not have an effect, but until someone shows the effect to be real I'm gonna keep rolling with 2 scoops of whey and dex. Unfortunately, the more likely thing to happen is that someone will market methionine as the next greatest thing, but that's the sad reality.

[Ritch]

^^^ I agree with your 2 scoops of whey plus dex being a good post workout shake.

[jsv22]

I think this is really all that needs to be said. The truth of the matter is that there hasn't and probably never will be a proper clinical study done on the effect of BCAA on protein synthesis/muscle growth. Everything out there has a multitude of variables or is not even looking at the right question.


To me, it all seems like a large marketing scheme. How do we know that the 20g of BCAA someone intakes after workout isn't transaminated via glutamate/ketoglutarate to non-essential aa and is simply acting as regular ol' whey? These metabolic pathways exist for a reason and if you're flushing your system with a large proportion of 3 amino acids, the most logical thing for the body to do is to fix the imbalance. There's really no evidence out there that BCAAs are doing nothing more and when you consider that placebo effect on average has 30% effect (reference: a very smart lady friend who just got her MD, so don't ask for a reference), the benefits are all very likely in the head.

It may or may not have an effect, but until someone shows the effect to be real I'm gonna keep rolling with 2 scoops of whey and dex. Unfortunately, the more likely thing to happen is that someone will market methionine as the next greatest thing, but that's the sad reality.

Ya i agree, the effect seems weak in real life situations. The data that i see shows that leucine can decrease exercise-induced muscle damage and promote muscle protein synthesis but again, to what extent does this have on an extremely well fed person who has previously consumed and is still digesting carbs/protein? several recent studies provide evidence that leucine may aid in the retention of lean mass in a hypocaloric state..

I'm starting to lean toward it having a chronic effect since it seems to be able to activate mTOR. this may improve the ability of feeding to stimulate protein synthesis. but that's just IMO, there is a lot of data lacking in this area

-jsv

[JonnyO]

I think bodybuilders will get enough Leucine in our food and whey. I havent seen any real studies to prove to me it is worth adding as a whole supplement to make it worth while. Though for an athelete it has shown some benefits for power output and endurance, but for us wanting too add muscle there is no evidence adding it helps.

[Thorgrim]

I have been taking leucine for the past couple weeks as part of a cut I am doing and overall things seem to be going well. Problem is that it is hard to isolate any one thing I am doing as key since I have changed quite a few variables within a short time.

Just figure out what works best for you and keep doing it. Studies can sometimes be a good guide to help point you in the right direction but you still need to experiment on yourself.