Future of GM, Chrysler, and Ford

[Nemko_Distribution]

what do you think the future of the big 3 holds?

The first problem was the high canadian dollar and unfair trading. The Canadian dollar has subsided enough to no longer be an issue, but then the recession comes in and hardly anyone is buying their products. Then there are facts that Japanese cars being built better (no longer a stereotype since the CEOs of the big 3 admitted this) and better fuel economy. To add more misery, the threat of chinese imports are arriving to the Canadian market next year.

I'm sure most of you saw on youtube a crash test on a chinese car and laughed your asses off......i did :laugh. Chinese cars cannot enter the Canadian market until it passes Canadian safety standards. So once it does enter the market, rest assure they will meet the minimum safety standards. They will also be priced an average 30% less than its competitors. With the recession deepening in 2009, it gives the Chinese cars an advantage. Indian cars also have the ambition to enter the North American market.

So with problem after problem and no end in sight, what do you think will happen to the big 3? will they rebound or die?

[michealJ]

Let them close.... give the money to Honda Nissan Toyota.... ECT let them pick up the slack,
Right now they can be bought out for next to nothing compared to how much money it would take to actually bail the stupid ****s out as the billions there asking for is just the start. I say we take our bail out tax $ and buy the plants give them tooled and all to a someone that can think more then 5 min head and actually has plans for a future.

That’s just me

[Nemko_Distribution]

but what about the thousands of jobs that will be lost? im pretty sure everyone hates those fat cat CEOs who make millions a year, but what about all the families who depend on them to put a roof over their heads?

IMHO, I would of given a bailout to the auto sector over the banks. at least the banks are still making money.

[michealJ]

If Honda and Nissaan Toyota Kia Ect pick up the slack..... most people will just change employers...as for the branch off plants they may have to re tool but i think most would stay open.

[Bowlcut]

but what about the thousands of jobs that will be lost? im pretty sure everyone hates those fat cat CEOs who make millions a year, but what about all the families who depend on them to put a roof over their heads?

IMHO, I would of given a bailout to the auto sector over the banks. at least the banks are still making money.

Those jobs are going to be lost anyways until the unions take a pay cut.

There should be no government bailout of any private sector company.

You can complain about fat cat CEOs making money, but the best way to punish GM's management for making bad decisions is bankruptcy where they will all be fired.

[michealJ]

Those jobs are going to be lost anyways until the unions take a pay cut.

There should be no government bailout of any private sector company.

You can complain about fat cat CEOs making money, but the best way to punish GM's management for making bad decisions is bankruptcy where they will all be fired.
Well put

[waderow]

the only way to save them is to ban all imports. and tha will never happen, so let capitalism work, let them go into bankruptcy protection. they will need to get rid of their top heavy structure, and renegotiate with unions to be more competitive.
then they will reopen with a new gusto.

bailing them out WILL NEVER WORK

[Lykalotopus]

Letting them close will be the apocolypse of the financial sector.

What people fail to realize is that its not the car companies themselves, it's the spin off economics that would suffer the collapse of the modern world.

Parts, shipping, packaging, fueling, etc.

Between the supply chain & the end user delivery system, anyone who says '**** 'em, let em close' has no idea how much this will impact everyone, themselves included.

Think of it this way, yes, they build the cars, but how about the hundreds of thousands of other jobs that depend on those cars going out?

Trucking companies, cardboard & plastic companies, metal workers.

You name it, it's affected by the automotive industry.

[macka]

the only way to save them is to ban all imports. and tha will never happen, so let capitalism work, let them go into bankruptcy protection. they will need to get rid of their top heavy structure, and renegotiate with unions to be more competitive.
then they will reopen with a new gusto.

bailing them out WILL NEVER WORK

Exactly, **** those CEO's and Unions. CAW has become a dog of a union extorting retarded wages for easy work. 28 bucks an hour to work on an assembly line is BULLSHIT.

[Bowlcut]

the only way to save them is to ban all imports. and tha will never happen, so let capitalism work, let them go into bankruptcy protection. they will need to get rid of their top heavy structure, and renegotiate with unions to be more competitive.
then they will reopen with a new gusto.

bailing them out WILL NEVER WORK

Well the best way to save them would be for us to have less labor regulations that give the unions too much power.
I am for unions as long as they don't have more power than a free market would afford them.
The GM workers in the USA make $28/hour, but the Honda guys make $26. Not a big wage drop, but where GM gets hit is pension, health benefits, etc. They are spending millions of covering workers Viagra! Are you kidding me! My health plan won't cover that, but why should theirs?!

GM also has "job banks" where laid off workers essentially are paid to show up and do nothing for a few months.

You are so correct about them needing to get rid of their top heavy structure.

[waderow]

Letting them close will be the apocolypse of the financial sector.

What people fail to realize is that its not the car companies themselves, it's the spin off economics that would suffer the collapse of the modern world.

Parts, shipping, packaging, fueling, etc.

Between the supply chain & the end user delivery system, anyone who says '**** 'em, let em close' has no idea how much this will impact everyone, themselves included.

Think of it this way, yes, they build the cars, but how about the hundreds of thousands of other jobs that depend on those cars going out?

Trucking companies, cardboard & plastic companies, metal workers.

You name it, it's affected by the automotive industry.

well a bail out will only delay the inevitable. I know its a big deal, but the ONLY WAY to prevent is go into a nationalist/socialist type system, and ban all imports. No more Mexico. No more China, Japan, Korea.....nothing. As long as they can get away with paying their labour 1-5% of what we pay ours, we're doomed to fail. Heavy tariffs would work too, but to be quite honest....I and many others are tired of paying the top $$$ for shit vehicles that last 2-3 years.

Let them close.

[macka]

Letting them close will be the apocolypse of the financial sector.

What people fail to realize is that its not the car companies themselves, it's the spin off economics that would suffer the collapse of the modern world.

Parts, shipping, packaging, fueling, etc.

Between the supply chain & the end user delivery system, anyone who says '**** 'em, let em close' has no idea how much this will impact everyone, themselves included.

Think of it this way, yes, they build the cars, but how about the hundreds of thousands of other jobs that depend on those cars going out?

Trucking companies, cardboard & plastic companies, metal workers.

You name it, it's affected by the automotive industry.

IF they folded, yes there would be a short term crash, but you forget that a large part of our economy can adjust to not having them around. Right now, there is a shortage of drivers, and trucks to move the goods in this country. It'll free up a few more wagons so it won't park anybody due to that, it'll move them to different sectors.
Steel workers assemble industrial buildings so you know. If you are talking about the people who work punch presses, they are press operators, and in the short term they will be laid off, but when the other manufacturers pick up the slack so to speak, they will mostly be back to work.
Cardboard and plastic companies are able to retool and sell elsewhere, in fact they have already started doing that. DO you think they will sit and watch themselves go for a crap? No they are already planning and moving in new directions. They have been since the big 3 started moving stuff to mexico. Do you think they'd ship boxes all the way to Mexico when they already have plants in mexico that make them?
Yes the auto industry has a large impact, but you forget, that every sub contractor has been moving to retool or find a new niche to keep on making money. Nobody will sit still and watch themselves go bankrupt, those that do are bad business people. Also not every industry in Ontario is affected by the auto industry, although you'd like think it would be.

[waderow]

IF they folded, yes there would be a short term crash, but you forget that a large part of our economy can adjust to not having them around. Right now, there is a shortage of drivers, and trucks to move the goods in this country. It'll free up a few more wagons so it won't park anybody due to that, it'll move them to different sectors.
Steel workers assemble industrial buildings so you know. If you are talking about the people who work punch presses, they are press operators, and in the short term they will be laid off, but when the other manufacturers pick up the slack so to speak, they will mostly be back to work.
Cardboard and plastic companies are able to retool and sell elsewhere, in fact they have already started doing that. DO you think they will sit and watch themselves go for a crap? No they are already planning and moving in new directions. They have been since the big 3 started moving stuff to mexico. Do you think they'd ship boxes all the way to Mexico when they already have plants in mexico that make them?
Yes the auto industry has a large impact, but you forget, that every sub contractor has been moving to retool or find a new niche to keep on making money. Nobody will sit still and watch themselves go bankrupt, those that do are bad business people. Also not every industry in Ontario is affected by the auto industry, although you'd like think it would be.


good post bro.
thats capitalism. just don't **** with it and everyone will be okay

[wrought]

Propping up a failed business model won't eventually lead to its success. Either it fails now or it fails in 5 years when the cash is gone.

I could see supporting a transition and restructuring so that the infrastructure of these companies could be put to better use, but just throwing money at shit rarely solves anything.....but, if anybody wants to throw some money at me, I ain't gonna complain, daddy needs a new Z06.

[waderow]

Propping up a failed business model won't eventually lead to its success. Either it fails now or it fails in 5 years when the cash is gone.

I could see supporting a transition and restructuring so that the infrastructure of these companies could be put to better use, but just throwing money at shit rarely solves anything.....but, if anybody wants to throw some money at me, I ain't gonna complain, daddy needs a new Z06.

oh dude.... a Z06 is my desktop wallpaper
Within 2 years, one way or another I will have one.

[Bowlcut]

If the companies close down the plants and their capital are still there. There will still be the machines, presses, and equipment that can be bought by a firm who wants to start making cars again, profitably.

Why should tax dollars go to failing business? It is a misallocation of capital that will punish efficient firms and reward poor business models, and when the overall efficiency of the economy decreases so will standards of living for EVERYONE.

The market is the best place to determine where capital should be invested because governments have no clue about which firms deserve our society's finite resources. The Big 3 have been getting assistance for years as a way of vote buying but it has not changed the fact their business model is flawed.

[natenator]

but what about the thousands of jobs that will be lost? im pretty sure everyone hates those fat cat CEOs who make millions a year, but what about all the families who depend on them to put a roof over their heads?

IMHO, I would of given a bailout to the auto sector over the banks. at least the banks are still making money.
Fat cat CEOs? Granted I think they make way too much money but at least they have a marketable skill and could find a job tomorrow running another company or being very high up somewhere. What about the low level union ****s who make $70K/yr just to push a button with no marketable skill? Doubt they could even get Tim Horton jobs.

There are wayyyyy more of those people with no education and no skillset making wayyyyy more than the CEO is making

[Lykalotopus]

well a bail out will only delay the inevitable. I know its a big deal, but the ONLY WAY to prevent is go into a nationalist/socialist type system, and ban all imports. No more Mexico. No more China, Japan, Korea.....nothing. As long as they can get away with paying their labour 1-5% of what we pay ours, we're doomed to fail. Heavy tariffs would work too, but to be quite honest....I and many others are tired of paying the top $$$ for shit vehicles that last 2-3 years.

Let them close.

Ban all imports, eh? There's a good idea.

Might as well kiss anything you enjoy buying cheaply good buy.

No more WalMart, no more Coscto, essentially no more anything.

Once manufacturing companies have to set up shop here and pay north american wages, the price of everything would skyrocket.

You are passionate my friend, but cleary have no understanding of global economics.

The north american economy and the luxuries we enjoy are built off exploiting 3rd world countries. Enjoy it while you can.

[waderow]

With strong Unions, we cannot EVER compete with developing nations

[waderow]

Ban all imports, eh? There's a good idea.

Might as well kiss anything you enjoy buying cheaply good buy.

No more WalMart, no more Coscto, essentially no more anything.

Once manufacturing companies have to set up shop here and pay north american wages, the price of everything would skyrocket.

You are passionate my friend, but cleary have no understanding of global economics.

The north american economy and the luxuries we enjoy are built off exploiting 3rd world countries. Enjoy it while you can.


no shit. that's my point exactly
its not possible

[Lykalotopus]

There has to be a happy medium.

Just because you think an assembly line job is only worth $10/hour doesn't mean you'll be able to get anyone to staff it.

As costs of food, fuel & housing rise, people expect more pay even if they're not worth it.

Fact is that the auto industry is one of the few things still manufactured in north america & its future is not looking good.

[Bowlcut]

The reason that workers in these countries are paid less money is primarily because they are less productive.
The only way we can afford to compete is through increasing domestic productivity, which is a pipe dream because CDN manufacturers and their poor practices were masked by a low dollar.

Tariffs sound like a good idea, but the reality is that they are a regressive tax, meaning that low income people get hit the hardest because trade barriers will drive up the cost of basic necessities like food and fuel.
Look at the price of dairy where you live. There is little to no free trade in the dairy market that is controlled by powerful lobbies, and it shows. Now look at grains where prices have increased, but there is less trade barriers and you will see that consumers are getting shafted by paying higher prices.

The political elite make it sound like they want tariffs to help the masses, but the only people who get rich are the domestic producers connected to the politicians. If we put a tariff on imported cars to the benefit of GM's dealers this will come at the expense of a Honda dealer who will see their sales suffer. What would happen if the Honda dealer had friends in government? He would probably get his way.

All I know is anytime the government says they want to 'help us' that is code for they want to "help us make their friends rich"

[Nemko_Distribution]

$28/hr for standing on an assembly line turning screws all day is definitely wrong, expecialy when you're making more than someone who has several years of university education and the auto worker is a high school drop out. But the ripple effect when they go bankrupt really concerns me. Thousands of jobs that aren't even related to the auto industry will dissapear. Mom and pop stores and restaurants for example that are situated beside auto plants and rely on their business will dry up. They go bankrupt, lose their store. Now they cant get a business loan to start off fresh because they defaulted on their previous mortgage. Innocent hard working prople who don't make $28/hr will be affected. I totally disagree with it being a short term crash. Learning a new trade (ie. bricklaying, masonary, plumbing) takes 3-4 years to complete. And who is going to pay the bills while you're at school when you live alone? It's not going to be easy going to school full time, paying the bills and to put a roof over your head while making $15/hr.

[Bowlcut]

There has to be a happy medium.

Just because you think an assembly line job is only worth $10/hour doesn't mean you'll be able to get anyone to staff it.

As costs of food, fuel & housing rise, people expect more pay even if they're not worth it.

Fact is that the auto industry is one of the few things still manufactured in north america & its future is not looking good.

The reason food is going up is because of flawed monetary policy by the Bank of Canada that deliberately inflates the supply of money in order to "create economic activity".

This all comes back to the monetary policy of central banks and this idea that somehow governments can fix the problems that create.

[Shortdave]

I am okay with a bail out as long as it hinges on getting the unions out for good and renegotiating all workers contracts to a much more economically feasible plan.

I mean if it is the option of 12 bucks an hour to work the assembly line or go try and find a job elsewhere while the country is in a recession, I think most smart people would take the pay cut.

[physique]

well a bail out will only delay the inevitable. I know its a big deal, but the ONLY WAY to prevent is go into a nationalist/socialist type system, and ban all imports. No more Mexico. No more China, Japan, Korea.....nothing. As long as they can get away with paying their labour 1-5% of what we pay ours, we're doomed to fail. Heavy tariffs would work too, but to be quite honest....I and many others are tired of paying the top $$$ for shit vehicles that last 2-3 years.

Let them close.


took the words out of my mouth.

bailing them out is only delaying the INEVITABLE!

[#8]

well a bail out will only delay the inevitable. I know its a big deal, but the ONLY WAY to prevent is go into a nationalist/socialist type system, and ban all imports. No more Mexico. No more China, Japan, Korea.....nothing. As long as they can get away with paying their labour 1-5% of what we pay ours, we're doomed to fail. Heavy tariffs would work too, but to be quite honest....I and many others are tired of paying the top $$$ for shit vehicles that last 2-3 years.

Let them close.

yes this is a very accurate response. this all boils down to simple cost effectiveness of the products being produced. the big 3 companies choose to spend money on the grossly inflated salaries and pensions of the employees that work on the assembly line instead of investing it in engineering like the germans, japanese and more recent korean models that are making very high quality vehicles. i have never owned an american car, nor will i ever own an american car. let these companies die to make way for more fuel efficient, more reliable models built by whomever appeals to the consumer. gov't interference goes against the very essence of capitalism and letting the market (consumers) dictate what should happen. its inevitable. **** em.

[physique]

i dont understand how the big 3 are broke? does no one put money aside for a rainny day?

if i were to run my business the way the ceo's have run these car companies would i get a bail out? **** no! i would be told to stick it. yes there are thousands of jobs at stack here, but for christ sakes, eventually they will go bankrupt. whether we bail them out now then later they will be toast. bailouts are a farce, look back on this, 90% of business's bailed out, end up in the shit tank anyways!

sorry but i dont want my tax dollars going to bail these idiots out.
i also agree with the part on the unions, unions are ruining the world. they are too powerful and have overstepped their boundries. take forestry in Bc, some mills might still be around if employees and their unions didnt want the coat off the companies back.
now look where that has left them.

[macka]

Physique, same thing here in Northern Ontario. The wood industry workers basically milked the system dry. They didn't catch on that they were screwing themselves, and have sunk 5 mills in this region. That's 1100 or so jobs just in the mills, not including the businesses that went tits up when the workers migrated to Alberta. So in an area where there were 20,000 people, we lost 10,000 or so people in total to poor business practice and union wage bleeding.

[AlbertaBeef]

Dion is lookin for work, put him in charge of the 3 and form a coalition! Maybe you could get a hemi-sunfire or a viper V-10 Mustang???

[ironwill]

Physique, same thing here in Northern Ontario. The wood industry workers basically milked the system dry. They didn't catch on that they were screwing themselves, and have sunk 5 mills in this region. That's 1100 or so jobs just in the mills, not including the businesses that went tits up when the workers migrated to Alberta. So in an area where there were 20,000 people, we lost 10,000 or so people in total to poor business practice and union wage bleeding.


Not necessarily true......Not all true, some is....You can have the best management in the world and best in class for everything, but when the dollar is par, and fuel is high, and resources are getting further from the mills etc...It costs a f of a lot more to operate...I was in ontario and saw a few mills through their closures, i was becoming a specialist actually and recruited for my ability to make and manage change in industry....
Unions didnt help with costs in forestry, but power, and fuel were the 2 biggest costs at most places i have worked (forestry)uncontrolled costs, or fixed costs...not variables.......And wages are up there as well, but they werent making 38 bucks an hour and wasting time, trades were making 28 and happy with that...Many forestry industries have small lines of demarcation and will cross when required (Millwright will weld etc) and with a few meetings telling how it is , and being honest with the workers, they get it for the most part....
NOW, Automotive is a different beast, 38 bucks an hour and more, strict lines of demarcation that will not be crossed under any circumstances, very high grievance costs, rediculous benefits etc....bad attitudes, lazy non-performing management and union, no accountability, at all...all destructive for business...period, they wont change...CAW forever.....NOT
Forestry, and automotive are apples and condominiums bro...Not even the same species...I can go on, and on...Ive worked in many industries, all over this wonderful country, and automotive is EVIL....sick and crooked...OK, im done..
My vote would be no bailout at all....Someone will buy the businesses and hire people that are required to operate like a business should.

[waderow]

yup ^

let them fail. they need that. we need a recession to reset all the bad business and bad debt

[natenator]

yup ^

let them fail. they need that. we need a recession to reset all the bad business and bad debt
just don't let me hear you crying if your retail business fails because of it :P

[waderow]

the auto industry cant be saved. re tool the plants. train the workers to do something else or let someone buy the companies.

jst dont piss away tax dolllars on a bail out that will not work...

ps you will never hear me cry :) if my business fails, its my fault for not being diverse enough or smart enough,,.,,,,,, i wont fail

[natenator]

the auto industry cant be saved. re tool the plants. train the workers to do something else or let someone buy the companies.

jst dont piss away tax dolllars on a bail out that will not work...

ps you will never hear me cry :) if my business fails, its my fault for not being diverse enough or smart enough,,.,,,,,, i wont fail
didnt say I disagreed but I hear people so often say something then bitch once is has happened. Annoying.

[Felinecougar]

My husband works for a company with many large stamping plants in Canada, the US and Mexico.

For those of you that think your North American car is all American, ya LOL.

Guess again. I have barely seen my husband this year.. He is a new Project Engineer and is in the Orient 2-3 weeks a month for the last 18 months, working on new cars for Chrysler and GM.

What's he overseeing that is being made there? The damn dies that will build your North American cars!!! That's right..China, Korea, Japan and the Philippines. Yet here in Windsor Ontario, the tool and die capital of Canada, we see shops closing daily.

The lowest quote gets the job. In China if they make a bad die they argue with him and say it's his fault. If it's in Japan that has a problem, the die makers go home and cut off their hand out of shame. F..k China.

If he is not there then he is in Mexico getting his first offs with the dies he had built in the orient. The parts will run in Mexico, the US and Canada and make it into your North American cars.

He is now quoting on the next platform of cars that he will oversee the dies being made for. All foreign cars. If it pays our bills I'm for it.

And he gets paid in US dollars so let the US dollar go down IMO and keep the gas prices down too.

It's partly to be blamed on the greedy auto execs that want greater profits on the cars, that has lead them oversees and into Mexico.

PS..that's right..FC is home alone!!!!! :handsome

[Van Zan]

:sexy I love cougars

[faller]

**** i get tired of the auto industries whinning. The only reason is because it's in eastern Canada and when things don't go too well they think all of Canada is effected.

The forest industry is at a stand still in Canada and they employ more than the auto and banking industry combined. Course most of those jobs are out here in the west so i guess that doesn't really matter. I'm sick and tired of pumping money back east, **** the auto industry, **** bombardia (sp)..

Thats my rant for the day and i'm sticking to it :D

[420]

GM is gonna auction some vehicles to make some quick mone.

http://jalopnik.com/5113113/gm-to-auction-near+classics-from-corporate-museum

Im gonna buyt the 1998 Popemobile... hahah

[ironwill]

**** i get tired of the auto industries whinning. The only reason is because it's in eastern Canada and when things don't go too well they think all of Canada is effected.

The forest industry is at a stand still in Canada and they employ more than the auto and banking industry combined. Course most of those jobs are out here in the west so i guess that doesn't really matter. I'm sick and tired of pumping money back east, **** the auto industry, **** bombardia (sp)..

Thats my rant for the day and i'm sticking to it :D
very true, way more employed in forestry, but it doesnt seem to matter..???

[macka]

IW, I know you were in this region in ON, I did some asking around, I found out that the mill here was the highest paid in Canada. It used to be owned by KC, then Neenah and now Buchanon. A 4th yr apprentice pipefitter here used to make 35 an hour, yet down the road, they were making 28 an hour. KC dumped this mill because it was a nightmare, and as each new company bought it, thewages came back to reality. The saving grace of this mill is its high end pulp output. Photo paper and diapers are still in high demand.

[Felinecougar]

They were told the office and company were shutting down till Jan 18 to follow the big 3s shut downs.

The more you make the more you should fear he says because they start at the top too. They can hire 2 guys for his wages when the automotive industry is desperate come spring.

[ironwill]

IW, I know you were in this region in ON, I did some asking around, I found out that the mill here was the highest paid in Canada. It used to be owned by KC, then Neenah and now Buchanon. A 4th yr apprentice pipefitter here used to make 35 an hour, yet down the road, they were making 28 an hour. KC dumped this mill because it was a nightmare, and as each new company bought it, thewages came back to reality. The saving grace of this mill is its high end pulp output. Photo paper and diapers are still in high demand.

yes im familiar with the mill, i was recruited there, but balked at pulp industry..as i went through 2 mill closures at that point....But the keywords you said were, they got back to reality....Unfortunately, the big 3 doesnt think that way, they claw and will scarifice and in the end lose it all because they wont lose a penny and ask for more in the next breath....
I have just seen many a multitude of forestry people come together in an attempt to hold onto what they have in the tough times, with thoughts of regarnering profits when times are better...I really enjoyed seeing and feeling firsthand the team effort and thoughts that took place more times than not....In the end some mills still shut down, but they still attempted to be lean and efficient.

[Bowlcut]

Globe had a good article today about how the forestry malaise is mostly a result of provincial governments and their regulations and interference.
BC is actually the only province that receives more money from forestry royalties than what is paid fighting forest fires.

Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, and NB tax payers all pay more money to fight fires than their governments receive.

Oh well, votes have to be bought somehow.