Tuna shakes and the versatility of tuna in general!

[waderow]

We all love tuna. Great for protein, great for lowering blood pressure, lowers cholesterol, high in Omega 3 fatty acids, which of course are great for the heart and could be a staple in all our diets. Also, it tastes goooood.

So I am sure we have all done it, popped a can open and ate it straight out of the can with a fork. Not bad, but there is so much more to offer with tuna.

First and foremost, is the TUNA SHAKE!

You will never be so happy to take your tuna in this method.

My recipe is:
One can of tuna in water (water drained of course because the water is gross)
2 scoops of your favorite whey protein
6-8 egg whites (pasteurised)
1 scoop progressive phytoberry http://www.progressivenutritional.com/phytoberry/research.htm
1 scoop progressive vegge greens http://www.progressivenutritional.com/veggies/?section=nutrients
1 teaspoon matcha green tea extract
1 table spoon ground flax seed
1 table spoon SALBA
handful of frozen blueberries
add enough water to make it all blend up nice and be swallowable

this will yield over 130 grams of protein and will taste very yummy.


================================================== ========

interesting tuna methods

add a can of tuna to kraft dinner. Yumm. and my personal fav.

add a can of tuna to salad, this is a given. very obvious a party pleaser and you get your greens!

add a can of tuna to your morning bowl of yogurt flax, salba and berries. get past the idea and its not so bad

tuna, with chopped celery, chopped onions, and 1 table spoon of low fat mayo.

soon to be a crowd favorite: tuna and low fat cottage cheese! my new vice. seems to be cottage cheeses completing addition.

Feel free to add your fav tuna recipes!

[champcar99]

"this will yield over 130 grams of protein and will taste very yummy"

isn't that too much protein for the body too handle at one time ?

[Drifter]

on my old computer I had 101 tuna recipes . the shake was in there , but I never could try that one . I will dig around the net to see if I can find it and post it here .

[waderow]

"this will yield over 130 grams of protein and will taste very yummy"

isn't that too much protein for the body too handle at one time ?

i don't think so. i know too much protein, and lack of carbs, fat etc, can be hard on kidneys, but when on 3000 calorie a day diets, I would think you are going to want at least 1000 calories of protein per day (250-300 grams).

It is recommended that the average person not exceed 30% of diet in protein as ketones develop, kidneys work to flush them, and ultimately dehydrate us and all kinds of bad shit.

but we're on roids, and lifting heavy 4 times a week or so. I do not know the ideal number, but I am thinking we should be about 40% protein, 40-50% carbs, and 10-20% fat as a percentage of calories

[bossman_1986]

i think i'd throw up from drinking a tuna shake

[waderow]

i think i'd throw up from drinking a tuna shake

bro, try it, you will love it. the little bits of tuna take on the taste of the shake, and become little tiny chewy shake flavored bits of goodness

[gordi]

Tuna Patties!

Drain two cans of flaked tuna. Mix in two or three omega 3 eggs and a little less than a cup of oatmeal. You can add some fresh ground black pepper, cayene, curry powder, chili powder, cumin, basil, or other herb or spice, if you'd like. You can mix some shredded cheddar in, too, if you don't mind the fat... You could also substitute a couple of tablespoons of flax (or salba) for some of the oatmeal.

Fry it in olive oil until the egg is cooked.

Easy, healthy, and delicious.

[5151]

i don't think so. i know too much protein, and lack of carbs, fat etc, can be hard on kidneys, but when on 3000 calorie a day diets, I would think you are going to want at least 1000 calories of protein per day (250-300 grams).

It is recommended that the average person not exceed 30% of diet in protein as ketones develop, kidneys work to flush them, and ultimately dehydrate us and all kinds of bad shit.

but we're on roids, and lifting heavy 4 times a week or so. I do not know the ideal number, but I am thinking we should be about 40% protein, 40-50% carbs, and 10-20% fat as a percentage of calories

Can you tell me where you're getting this info. I don't see ketones developing when carbs are present in the diet at anything over 50gs a day. There would be no use for them. There has been no link to high protein intake being detrimental to the kidneys where no pre-existing condition is found. I thought this myth was busted before I was born.


"this will yield over 130 grams of protein and will taste very yummy"

isn't that too much protein for the body too handle at one time ?

there is really no limit to how much your body can handle. the body seems to adapt to whatever you throw at it. what's best for protein synthesis is certainly debatable.

[5151]

Tuna Patties!

Drain two cans of flaked tuna. Mix in two or three omega 3 eggs and a little less than a cup of oatmeal. You can add some fresh ground black pepper, cayene, curry powder, chili powder, cumin, basil, or other herb or spice, if you'd like. You can mix some shredded cheddar in, too, if you don't mind the fat... You could also substitute a couple of tablespoons of flax (or salba) for some of the oatmeal.

Fry it in olive oil until the egg is cooked.

Easy, healthy, and delicious.

this actually sounds tasty and more importantly CHEAP!
thanks for the tip

[gordi]

this actually sounds tasty and more importantly CHEAP!
thanks for the tip

It totally is. I have this about six to eight times a week, I like that I can mix up the spices and cheese and stuff to keep it interesting.

[Gib]

Tuna Patties!

Drain two cans of flaked tuna. Mix in two or three omega 3 eggs and a little less than a cup of oatmeal. You can add some fresh ground black pepper, cayene, curry powder, chili powder, cumin, basil, or other herb or spice, if you'd like. You can mix some shredded cheddar in, too, if you don't mind the fat... You could also substitute a couple of tablespoons of flax (or salba) for some of the oatmeal.

Fry it in olive oil until the egg is cooked.

Easy, healthy, and delicious.

That goes WAY better with turkey than tuna. Tuna is gross

[5151]

That goes WAY better with turkey than tuna. Tuna is gross

but cheap! cumin is the key to turkey burgers. according to my taste buds

[#8]

I once made a salmon milkshake because I ran out of protein powder and I wasnt in the mood to make a sandwich so.........

1 can canned salmon
2 cups milk
2 teaspoons chocolate syrup
handful of ice

In retrospect this was a HORRIBLE idea, and I almost puked trying to drink it. I did drink it and I feel manlier for having done so. Try it.....I DARE you....

[gordi]

That goes WAY better with turkey than tuna.

I love tuna, but turkey patties sound really good, too. Do you use ground turkey? Do you cook it first? The big advantage of tuna is ease of use. Just open the can and you're good to go.

I agree with 5151 that cumin is a great seasoning. Works great for tuna patties and I'm sure it would be great with turkey. Sesame seeds work great in those tuna patties, too.

[O-Train]

there is really no limit to how much your body can handle. the body seems to adapt to whatever you throw at it. what's best for protein synthesis is certainly debatable.[/QUOTE]

Where do you find this stuff? I have at least 2-3 textbooks that disagree. The body adapts but not to anything and everything. If you eat nails your body probably won't adapt to them very well...

There are actually upper limits on macronutrient uptake. They vary from person to person obviously but they exist. Eating 130g of protein in a shake isn't a great idea.

[waderow]

why, what could happen if you eat 130 grams of protein?

[O-Train]

why, what could happen if you eat 130 grams of protein?

Probably nothing, maybe constipation though. What I was trying to get at is it would be preferable to eat smaller amounts of protein more frequently.

I'm sure 5151 will argue this but eating 6 small meals is beneficial compared to 3 large meals. For starters. Large meals slow digestion. Also if you think about it. Food can only be absorbed through the walls of your intestines. There are also various transporters for different macronutrients but a smaller volume of food mixes better with the gastrointestinal juices and is more readily broken down and absorbed. So if you were to eat 6 meals containing 30g of protein (assuming the total volume is comparitively small) vs 1 meal containing 180g of protein. There is a good chance your body would be able to more readily utilize the protein from the smaller meals.

Now, getting back to the maximum protein per meal issue. As was previously mentioned, the body can adapt to intake and demand. So it is very likely that the intestines of a bodybuilder are capable of absorbing more protein than an average person. I guess a lot of it would depend on the source of the protein. 130g of whey protein would be much easier to digest and absorb than the large amount of meat you would need to yield the same amount of protein. Also the total volume of the meal is a factor, as is the fat content and the amount of fiber is also important.

So maybe it would work ok although the other thing you have to think about is daily protein requirement. (I can already tell 5151 is going to have a field day with this.) I've done some research previously. From what I gathered for a high-level natural athlete you need approximately 2g/kg of lean mass/day. So 1g/lb of lean mass is a safe estimate. So lets use Jonnyo as an example 240lbs 10%bf = 216g/day. The issue of course is that studies are not done using competitive bodybuilders. However, the discrepancy between what science believes is necessary to maintain a positive nitrogen balance and what someone eats in a day is quite large. So do you really need 130g of protein in one meal and can your body effectively utilize it? Maybe, but I wouldn't do it.

[5151]

there is really no limit to how much your body can handle. the body seems to adapt to whatever you throw at it. what's best for protein synthesis is certainly debatable.

Where do you find this stuff? I have at least 2-3 textbooks that disagree. The body adapts but not to anything and everything. If you eat nails your body probably won't adapt to them very well...

There are actually upper limits on macronutrient uptake. They vary from person to person obviously but they exist. Eating 130g of protein in a shake isn't a great idea.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I'm not saying 130g of protein in a shake is a good idea. In fact the shake posted in this thread is something I would consider a joke, bbers seem to have this weird idea that the harder things are the better. MY only issue with text books is they are often based on the RDA which let's face it is retarded.

I've got a longer response to your above post that I'll be back with. Some interesting abstracts/studies. Weird thing is I agree with most of it :O. I'll be sure to pick a few small points and argue semantics or something of the sort to inflate my e-ego, don't worry!

Off to the gym.

[JonnyO]

i don't think so. i know too much protein, and lack of carbs, fat etc, can be hard on kidneys, but when on 3000 calorie a day diets, I would think you are going to want at least 1000 calories of protein per day (250-300 grams).

It is recommended that the average person not exceed 30% of diet in protein as ketones develop, kidneys work to flush them, and ultimately dehydrate us and all kinds of bad shit.

but we're on roids, and lifting heavy 4 times a week or so. I do not know the ideal number, but I am thinking we should be about 40% protein, 40-50% carbs, and 10-20% fat as a percentage of calories

High protein being hard on the kidneys is an old wifes tale.

And an abundance of protein will prevent your body from producing ketones! And its impossible to get into ketosis with carbs in there.

[O-Train]

MY only issue with text books is they are often based on the RDA which let's face it is retarded.

I'm not sure how the numbers were measured and I'd have to search to find them. It was a medical physiology text and the numbers were maximum macronutient absorption/day. So I think protein was something like 600g, althogh apparently you can absorb literally kilograms of carbohydrates.

[5151]

I'm not sure how the numbers were measured and I'd have to search to find them. It was a medical physiology text and the numbers were maximum macronutient absorption/day. So I think protein was something like 600g, althogh apparently you can absorb literally kilograms of carbohydrates.

Oh ok that seems more than a fair assumption. I thought it was one of those textbooks that state more than 40gs of protein a day and your dick and kidneys evaporate.

Out of curiosity what is your educational background?

[O-Train]

Out of curiosity what is your educational background?

Not much. Hon B.Sc in Bio Sci. Spent most of my time at university in HK.

[Boulderer77]

.

[5151]

Not much. Hon B.Sc in Bio Sci. Spent most of my time at university in HK.

HK?
Interesting stuff. I am starting my B.Sc in January and am very excited for formal education on the topic. I have a feeling I will be a pain in the ass to many of my profs.

Funny enough I'm reading a paper that applies very well here. I'm going to post a few things up hopefully tomorrow.

[St]

High protein being hard on the kidneys is an old wifes tale.

And an abundance of protein will prevent your body from producing ketones! And its impossible to get into ketosis with carbs in there.



Ya this for only people with one kidney,and lack of water intake,when i did my Nutritionist.

[Descimus]

I once did a recipe of shake with tuna and some diet coke and something else that i dont remember that somebody posted from another board.. I sipped it and figured out that i was a retard for doing so. As for the tuna patty i might try it sound good thank for the idea.

[broken7]

I blended tuna with some water once, it tasted like acid. Not recommended.

[5151]

Probably nothing, maybe constipation though. What I was trying to get at is it would be preferable to eat smaller amounts of protein more frequently.

I'm sure 5151 will argue this but eating 6 small meals is beneficial compared to 3 large meals. For starters. Large meals slow digestion. Also if you think about it. Food can only be absorbed through the walls of your intestines. There are also various transporters for different macronutrients but a smaller volume of food mixes better with the gastrointestinal juices and is more readily broken down and absorbed. So if you were to eat 6 meals containing 30g of protein (assuming the total volume is comparitively small) vs 1 meal containing 180g of protein. There is a good chance your body would be able to more readily utilize the protein from the smaller meals.
Everyone argues lower meal frequency slowing digestion is a bad thing which I really don't understand. The meals, which tends to be larger, have more time spaced between. Your body can only digest protein so quickly depending on source so force feeding more ever 2-3 hours isn't helping in many cases you have not digested the previous meal. In fact I haven't see any concrete evidence digestion does increase with frequent feedings. If you have some please share. I came across this abstract that states digestion increases with increased calorie intake but nothing about meal frequency

Rapid orocecal transit in chronically active persons with high energy intake

A. Harris, A. K. Lindeman and B. J. Martin
Medical Sciences Program, Indiana University, Bloomington 47405.

Although chronic physical activity by humans can raise energy requirements and energy intake severalfold above sedentary levels, whether these increases alter digestive strategy remains unknown. To investigate this possibility, food passage rate (mouth-to-large intestinal lactulose transit) and absorption (xylose) were compared in a cross section of young men chosen to represent a wide range of daily physical activity and food intake. In 20 men (energy intake 1,272-5,342 kcal/day), resting mouth-to-cecum transit was faster in high caloric consumers (r = -0.69, P less than 0.01). In contrast, xylose absorption (n = 26; measured either as urinary xylose excretion or integrated breath H2 production from the sugar) was unrelated to food intake. Dietary fiber intake was uncorrelated with energy intake. This apparent human digestive strategy of rapid transit across the gut absorptive surface, without a sacrifice in absorption, parallels the adaptations made by several animal species similarly faced with increased energy demand at constant fiber intake. We therefore conclude that the hyperphagia of chronic exercise in humans may be linked with significant gastrointestinal adaptations.. Side note: If any one as the full text I'd appreciate it.

Now, getting back to the maximum protein per meal issue. As was previously mentioned, the body can adapt to intake and demand. So it is very likely that the intestines of a bodybuilder are capable of absorbing more protein than an average person. I guess a lot of it would depend on the source of the protein. 130g of whey protein would be much easier to digest and absorb than the large amount of meat you would need to yield the same amount of protein. Also the total volume of the meal is a factor, as is the fat content and the amount of fiber is also important.
Would whey protein be easier? I don't think there are any concrete numbers on speed of digestion for meats. The numbers on whey are slightly increased but they are often over exaggerated. Here are the only numbers I could find:
(They are grams per hour)
Raw egg protein-->1.4g
Cooked egg protein-->2.9g
Pea protein-->3.5g
Milk protein-->3.5g
Soy protein isolate--3.9g
Casein isolate--6.1g
Whey isolate--8-10g
So what a 2g difference between whey and casein?
These are from this source: http://www.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf
Note: They include pork tenderloin at <10g an hour but if someone actually bothers to read it I think you'll understand why I don't include that in my list.

Let's also keep in mind speed of digestion and % of digestion are two different things. Lyle McDonald just started an article series and the first installment was protein digestability:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/what-are-good-sources-of-protein-digestibility.html
Note: look how high the numbers are do you really think whey digests any better? quicker perhaps but more completely to an extent it will change anything? me thinks not.
So maybe it would work ok although the other thing you have to think about is daily protein requirement. (I can already tell 5151 is going to have a field day with this.) I've done some research previously. From what I gathered for a high-level natural athlete you need approximately 2g/kg of lean mass/day. So 1g/lb of lean mass is a safe estimate. So lets use Jonnyo as an example 240lbs 10%bf = 216g/day. The issue of course is that studies are not done using competitive bodybuilders. However, the discrepancy between what science believes is necessary to maintain a positive nitrogen balance and what someone eats in a day is quite large. So do you really need 130g of protein in one meal and can your body effectively utilize it? Maybe, but I wouldn't do it. I like what you say here. There are some upper limits introduced in the paper I linked above which are probably at the higher end of what is often recommended. 1-1.5g/lb is good by me if natural. Obviously this depends on the diet. In times of low carb or dieting your protein intake needs to be HIGHER despite lower overall calorie totals. Eating retardely high amounts of protein is expensive, unnecessary and just more work.

In bold.

[Ritch]

Man is this ever getting complicated. I say **** all this text stuff. Let`s look at the anecdotal evidence. Bodybuilders who eat smaller and more frequent meals do better than the ones who eat 2 or 3 big meals. Why does it have to be more complex than that? We can take all kinds of litterature and try to interpertrate things to what we want them to be, but it`s just not so. The person who chooses to beleive 3 meals a day is good is missing out on the post workout phenomenon. So what, this person would eat breakfast, lunch, then train and have one more meal. End of caloric intake for the day? Please tell me you`re joking. I only wish it were this simple in fact. No amount of arguing will ever convince me this is ideal. At least 2 should be eaten after training. Lets say a guy trains after breakfast. There is a post workout meal, then say 2 hours later one more meal, some people even eat sooner. What about the rest of the day? I must be missing something here 5151 with your saying that 3 meals is all bodybuilers need.

This is in no way an attack at you 5151. I really think you`re a smart guy and asset to this forum. At times I almost think you bring up topics to see how people will bebate you with them. Same goes for the whole glycemic thing. Screw all this medical text crap. I don`t care for it. All that matters to me is real life experience and the difference it has made with me and the people I`ve helped with it. The timing of high glycemic carbs and keeping them low at other times has made for better natural and juiced bodybuilders and saying this dosen`t matter is just horse shit. So let`s cut the text book quotes saying otherwise. No it`s not me refusing to see enlightment it`s quotes of literature that has zero application to bodybuilders which we all are.

[Ritch]

I just realized I responded in the tuna shake recipie thread and this response is off topic, it was when reading the back and forths between O Hurley and 5151 that made me respond as I did. But in regards to tuna shakes... Gross, just very, very, gross!

[O-Train]

I have an idea. Your challenge for the day 5151: I once heard that the physical structure of Waxy Maize Starch helps to shuttle other nutrients from the intestines into the blood stream. Due to this you could hypothetically consume WMS with protein powder and creatine and so increase absorption (or perhaps decrease transit time from mouth to blood stream). Try to find an article or some credible source that talks about that.

There are a lot of reasons for eating frequently. Unless you live a sedentary lifestyle I can't think of any negatives. I'll look over some of the links but I don't think you have a very solid argument.

[5151]

Man is this ever getting complicated. I say **** all this text stuff. Let`s look at the anecdotal evidence. Bodybuilders who eat smaller and more frequent meals do better than the ones who eat 2 or 3 big meals. Why does it have to be more complex than that? We can take all kinds of litterature and try to interpertrate things to what we want them to be, but it`s just not so. The person who chooses to beleive 3 meals a day is good is missing out on the post workout phenomenon. So what, this person would eat breakfast, lunch, then train and have one more meal. End of caloric intake for the day? Please tell me you`re joking. I only wish it were this simple in fact. No amount of arguing will ever convince me this is ideal. At least 2 should be eaten after training. Lets say a guy trains after breakfast. There is a post workout meal, then say 2 hours later one more meal, some people even eat sooner. What about the rest of the day? I must be missing something here 5151 with your saying that 3 meals is all bodybuilers need.

This is in no way an attack at you 5151. I really think you`re a smart guy and asset to this forum. At times I almost think you bring up topics to see how people will bebate you with them. Same goes for the whole glycemic thing. Screw all this medical text crap. I don`t care for it. All that matters to me is real life experience and the difference it has made with me and the people I`ve helped with it. The timing of high glycemic carbs and keeping them low at other times has made for better natural and juiced bodybuilders and saying this dosen`t matter is just horse shit. So let`s cut the text book quotes saying otherwise. No it`s not me refusing to see enlightment it`s quotes of literature that has zero application to bodybuilders which we all are.
I'm not saying 3 meals is better than 6. I just don't think there is any evidence that 6 is better than 3. I guess if I would have to make a recommendation(which I don't really like to do) I would say it really depends on the diet and how easy it is for people to stick to it. A 5000 calorie diet would probably be easiest spread over 6 meals. A woman cutting at 1500 would probably rather eat 3 meals. The guys fooling around with intermittent fasting are having some pretty interesting results.

Ha I think you may be onto me playing devils advocate.

I just realized I responded in the tuna shake recipie thread and this response is off topic, it was when reading the back and forths between O Hurley and 5151 that made me respond as I did. But in regards to tuna shakes... Gross, just very, very, gross!
Yeah I'm with you on that one.

I have an idea. Your challenge for the day 5151: I once heard that the physical structure of Waxy Maize Starch helps to shuttle other nutrients from the intestines into the blood stream. Due to this you could hypothetically consume WMS with protein powder and creatine and so increase absorption (or perhaps decrease transit time from mouth to blood stream). Try to find an article or some credible source that talks about that.

There are a lot of reasons for eating frequently. Unless you live a sedentary lifestyle I can't think of any negatives. I'll look over some of the links but I don't think you have a very solid argument.
Like I say I'm not sure I'm making an arguement for fewer meals I'm just not convinced there are inherent benefits in eating every 2-3 hours.

I'll look into the WMS thing. There is a difference between actual Vitagro(which just came out with v2 i believe) and just bulk WMS, correct? I've never really looked into it. I will throw out that creatine mono needs no help in absorption and I'm unsure why so many companies keep trying to improve something that already works. I'lll see what I can find on WMS though. Not having a job or going to school has really increased my google skills.

[Ritch]

When you say there is no evidence that 6 meals is better than 3... What about the hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders who do this to gain superior results? Surely this is enough. Not until recently there was no proof of steroids building muscle mass. But it`s something that bodybuilders knew for decades, some things just don`t need proof, is that enought proof? Most likely these people when they first started out were eating 3 meals a day. Then as time goes and knowledge abroadens we eat more and more often. No, I haven`t talked to these hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders, but we all know this is the case. There are a few gifted ones who don`t need to follow these methods. That`s fine, but I guarantee you that if we were to conduct a worldwide survey on bodybuilders the end result would be what I just said. Why is this not done? Because there is nothing to gain and besides nobody fills out surveys to begin with.

I tried vitargo. Nothing to get a hard on over. One of the selling points is that it gets in the bloodstream faster than dextrose. I say so what. For the price it`s just not worth it. One advantage is that it won`t bloat you as much as dextrose does, but that effect is only temporary. The way I used maxy maize was some during my training with some gartorade about 1/1 ratio total 70 grams of carbs with 15 grams or so of BCAA. Then after training the same ratio but 100 grams total of carbs with creatine and about 15 grams of BCAA. I would have tried this stuff without the gatorade but it tastes like you`re drinking a candle that`s been powdered down, hence the name waxy maize. I`m interested to see what will become of this supplement.

I bet you the supplement companies are just pissed off that a product like creatine came and worked so well from the very start. Not knowing that anything they could ever think of would make it better. I bet you if they knew this they would have purposely made a version that would not work as good as the one they first came out with. This way they could have made the improvements with the product and truely putting better versions (at least 5 to cash in...) on the market to arrive what we have today being the best creatine product which was the very first: monohydrate.

[waderow]

they eat 6 meals because they are taking in 7000 calories....or more

[O-Train]

http://www.humankinetics.com/eJourna.../pdfs/5642.pdf (This is a really good article. Did you read through the whole thing?)

"Rapidly absorbed amino acids despite stimulating greater protein synthesis, also stimulate greater amino acid oxidation, and hence results in a lower net protein gain, than slowly absorbed protein (54). Leucine balance, a measurable endpoint for protein balance, is indicated in Figure 1, which shows slowly absorbed amino acids (~ 6 to 7 g/h), such as CAS and 2.3 g of WP repeatedly taken orally every 20 min (RPT-WP), provide significantly better protein balance than rapidly absorbed amino acids (39, 54)".

So I'm going to blow the whole meal frequency thing wide open right now. Conveniently I can do it with the article you posted 5151. So they used Leucine balance as a measure of protein balance. Leucine is the most abundant AA found in skeletal muscle so it makes sense. From what they wrote ideally a person would eat a 4:1 ratio of casein protien to whey protein every 20 minutes. Yielding what looks to be a maximum protein absorption rate of 5-8g/hr. They actually found that casein protein mixed with whey protein (4:1) is significantly more effective than ingesting amino acids or just whey protein. So if you eat a large meal with a lot of protein some of it ends up in your poop. Also, a lot of the protein you do absorb (since you don't need/can't utilize a large amount at any one time) ends up being converted to sugar via gluconeogenesis. This starts happening shortly after the amino acids enter the blood stream. Or, if protein is consumed with a large amount of carbohydrates. (like in a large infrequent meal). The amino acids are instead used to form triglycerides and you get fat storage).

So, for a bodybuilder. Eating frequently. Especially protein. Yields optimal Leucine balance, a decrease in conversion of amino acids to glucose or triglycerides. Also there is a thermic effect that is particularly associated with protein breakdown. This helps you stay lean. Eating meals frequently is just fueling the furnace, the evidence is everywhere.

[O-Train]

Are there any protein supplements on the market right now that have a roughly 4:1 ratio of casein to whey. Really the ratio itself doesn't matter much. I'm just curious if there are any predominantly casein protein products that also have a smaller amount of whey protein.

Hmmm, would be easy enough to order on http://www.trueprotein.com/ Anyone else that wants to give it a try feel free to thank me by using my discount code: ONH179. Lol, now I feel like a salesman.

[5151]

Casein is not egg protein, it's the other part of milk. A 4:1 ratio of casein to whey would be Milk Protein. TP has a milk protein isolate that I have bought and use as my regular protein. Shit it's almost like nature knew what it was doing. Thanks for the code!

[O-Train]

Casein is not egg protein, it's the other part of milk. A 4:1 ratio of casein to whey would be Milk Protein. TP has a milk protein isolate that I have bought and use as my regular protein. Shit it's almost like nature knew what it was doing. Thanks for the code!

Lol, yeah. That was a total brain fart. I'll edit my posts.

[5151]

http://www.humankinetics.com/eJourna.../pdfs/5642.pdf (This is a really good article. Did you read through the whole thing?)
yup
"Rapidly absorbed amino acids despite stimulating greater protein synthesis, also stimulate greater amino acid oxidation, and hence results in a lower net protein gain, than slowly absorbed protein (54). Leucine balance, a measurable endpoint for protein balance, is indicated in Figure 1, which shows slowly absorbed amino acids (~ 6 to 7 g/h), such as CAS and 2.3 g of WP repeatedly taken orally every 20 min (RPT-WP), provide significantly better protein balance than rapidly absorbed amino acids (39, 54)".
Basically saying that ffaa may be useful for a quick spike and in certain situations but real food always kicks their ass.
So I'm going to blow the whole meal frequency thing wide open right now. Conveniently I can do it with the article you posted 5151. So they used Leucine balance as a measure of protein balance. Leucine is the most abundant AA found in skeletal muscle so it makes sense. From what they wrote ideally a person would eat a 4:1 ratio of casein protien to whey protein every 20 minutes. Yielding what looks to be a maximum protein absorption rate of 5-8g/hr. They actually found that casein protein mixed with whey protein (4:1) is significantly more effective than ingesting amino acids or just whey protein. So if you eat a large meal with a lot of protein some of it ends up in your poop. Also, a lot of the protein you do absorb (since you don't need/can't utilize a large amount at any one time) ends up being converted to sugar via gluconeogenesis. This starts happening shortly after the amino acids enter the blood stream. Or, if protein is consumed with a large amount of carbohydrates. (like in a large infrequent meal). The amino acids are instead used to form triglycerides and you get fat storage).
I think I understand what your saying but my arguement is that just because a maximal absorption rate of 5-8g/hr is found doesn't mean that's all that is absorbed. It just means the rest of the protein hangs out in your gut until it can be digested. 60g in one meal will just take longer to fully digest than 20g in another meal meaning the next meal doesn't have to come as soon. Looking at the absorption rates of pretty much anything we consider quality protein sources have digestion rates of over 90&#37; meaning it all gets digested. I think the most important of this article was the fact that most of these high protein intakes we see are retarded as we are just using them for energy anyway.
So, for a bodybuilder. Eating frequently. Especially protein. Yields optimal Leucine balance, a decrease in conversion of amino acids to glucose or triglycerides. Also there is a thermic effect that is particularly associated with protein breakdown. This helps you stay lean. Eating meals frequently is just fueling the furnace, the evidence is everywhere.
Eating large amounts of protein yields optimal leucine/protein balance. The thermic effect of protein is the same regardless of how many meals. Protein has the largest thermic effect which is why recommending it to any first time dieter who only eats a piece of meat with dinner is a great idea. If you ingest 100g in a meal or 100g in 10 meal the thermic effect will be the same.
Seriously, read that article, the whole thing. It's excellent. I learned something from it. Eggs (casein) are the way to go. Possibly the perfect bodybuilder food (aside from the gas), you even have the colesterol which acts as a precursor to testosterone.

Bolded.

Here's an abstract. I haven't read the full text:


Bellisle F et. al. Meal frequency and energy balance. Br J Nutr. (1997) 77 (Suppl 1):S57-70.
Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people’s habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a ‘nibbling’ meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship.

However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies

We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure.

Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.

[5151]

Lol, yeah. That was a total brain fart. I'll edit my posts.

Haha yeah that's what I figured. But seriously check out the MPI on TP. It's one of the cheaper protein on the site and offers pretty much the ideal ratio according to the paper.

[5151]

When you say there is no evidence that 6 meals is better than 3... What about the hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders who do this to gain superior results? Surely this is enough. Not until recently there was no proof of steroids building muscle mass. But it`s something that bodybuilders knew for decades, some things just don`t need proof, is that enought proof? Most likely these people when they first started out were eating 3 meals a day. Then as time goes and knowledge abroadens we eat more and more often. No, I haven`t talked to these hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders, but we all know this is the case. There are a few gifted ones who don`t need to follow these methods. That`s fine, but I guarantee you that if we were to conduct a worldwide survey on bodybuilders the end result would be what I just said. Why is this not done? Because there is nothing to gain and besides nobody fills out surveys to begin with.

I tried vitargo. Nothing to get a hard on over. One of the selling points is that it gets in the bloodstream faster than dextrose. I say so what. For the price it`s just not worth it. One advantage is that it won`t bloat you as much as dextrose does, but that effect is only temporary. The way I used maxy maize was some during my training with some gartorade about 1/1 ratio total 70 grams of carbs with 15 grams or so of BCAA. Then after training the same ratio but 100 grams total of carbs with creatine and about 15 grams of BCAA. I would have tried this stuff without the gatorade but it tastes like you`re drinking a candle that`s been powdered down, hence the name waxy maize. I`m interested to see what will become of this supplement.

I bet you the supplement companies are just pissed off that a product like creatine came and worked so well from the very start. Not knowing that anything they could ever think of would make it better. I bet you if they knew this they would have purposely made a version that would not work as good as the one they first came out with. This way they could have made the improvements with the product and truely putting better versions (at least 5 to cash in...) on the market to arrive what we have today being the best creatine product which was the very first: monohydrate.

I can't really argue anecdotal evidence. Like I said I don't think 6 meals is bad and many days it's the way I eat.

Well boys I have to go attend to that damn social life thing. I swear some days I would rather sit around reading. I'll have to suppress my inner nerdom for my pursuit of tail for tonight.

I'll see if I can find anything on WMS or Vitargo for you Hurley.

[O-Train]

Haha yeah that's what I figured. But seriously check out the MPI on TP. It's one of the cheaper protein on the site and offers pretty much the ideal ratio according to the paper.

Yeah it is a good deal. The problem is the exchange rate and the shipping. Maybe there is a similar bulk product in Canada.