Arimidex

[WORLD]

Surprisingly there aren't any good threads on this topic after I searched.

I'm planning my second cycle. Some of you may have seem me asking about it in a previous thread. This is what it consists of:

12 weeks Test E
4 weeks dbol @ 35mg (to start)

PCT:
HCG(first time using it) and Nolva

From what I'm reading, Arimidex is a great aromatase inhibitor. It is shown to decrease estrogen dramatically, which as we know can be beneficial on cycle. We also know that too little estrogen in the body can provide negative effects as far as achieving optimal muscle growth.

So, why doesn't everyone recommend this product during cycle?

What are the pros and cons?

[gustavo77]

I use adex on cycle and aromasin for pct. I like adex cause it has a slightly longer half life than aromasin. The thing is adex can negatively impact lipids while aromasin has no effect on lipids. Personally, i take adex on cycle cause i can dose it eod whereas aromasin needs to be dosed ed due to it's approx 24hr half life. So in the end i use adex cause it is more cost effective for me than aromasin on cycle...for pct though aromasin is far superior.

[Houstonbc]

arimidex is harder on your lipids than aromasin so if i was you for this cycle i would run 12.5mg of sin eod to keep estro at bay

[gicantor]

Pros:
Controls gyno symptoms
Reduces bloat
Reduces estrogen side effects

Cons:
If used improperly, can reduce gains while on cycle.

I'm on a similar cycle to yours right now. Test C and Dbol. I used .25mg adex everyday to keep gyno at bay and keep bloat down. Some guys will say not to use it unless you have to. Everyone has a different opinion.

[Houstonbc]

ok listen to what gustavo said disregard my post!
i just learned something too!

[WORLD]

no problem Houston.

Thanks guys.

As far as lipids goes, I also read that it has minimal effects on cholesterol levels. I read this at Steroid.com

So Gustav, you don't use Nolva at all? Instead you choose Aromasin?

[gustavo77]

no problem Houston.

Thanks guys.

As far as lipids goes, I also read that it has minimal effects on cholesterol levels. I read this at Steroid.com

So Gustav, you don't use Nolva at all? Instead you choose Aromasin?

I use aromasin and low dose clomid. Nolva lowers IGF-1 and GH in the body....

[muscleshark]

I use aromasin and low dose clomid. Nolva lowers IGF-1 and GH in the body....

To an extent that you don't even need to worry about. Unless you are running a crazy high dose for 2 or 3 months straight, then you might have to worry about it being a negative effect on IGF and GH levels. But for a simple run-of-the-mill pct, I wouldnt be a bit concerned.

[gustavo77]

To an extent that you don't even need to worry about.

This study says differently my friend:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/2/513?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=+tamoxifen+testosterone&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

[WORLD]

What would you recommend for Arimidex doses during cycle. How does .25mg/day sound?

[Big D]

I was wondering about aromasin, while your in cycle would 12.5 mg /day be enough ?

[gustavo77]

What would you recommend for Arimidex doses during cycle. How does .25mg/day sound?

That should be ok. It all depends on the individual. I run between 0.5-1mg eod, depending on the dose of test i am using. 750-1g of test per week, i would use 1mg eod. The best thing to do is start out at a low dose and go from there. If you start to retain water or your nips start to get puffy and or sore then you will need to increase the dose..

[gustavo77]

I was wondering about aromasin, while your in cycle would 12.5 mg /day be enough ?

Again, it really depends on the individual and the doses being used. 12.5mg/day is a good place to start. If, again water retention begins or gyno symptoms appear bump it up to 25mg/day.

[Big D]

Again, it really depends on the individual and the doses being used. 12.5mg/day is a good place to start. If, again water retention begins or gyno symptoms appear bump it up to 25mg/day.

thats exacly what i will do, thanks for the info bro.

[gustavo77]

thats exacly what i will do, thanks for the info bro.

No prob....always a pleasure to help out!

[Neavris]

Errmm Gus, do you realize the study is about estrogen receptor blockade affecting GH levels in male puberty? Meaning, clomid would probably reproduce the same results on adolescent males? And maybe the results wouldn't be the same on hypogonadal adult males? I just find it strange when keyboard athlete interpret results every which way. The full PDF dosen't even disclose the amount administered. It could be 100mg, it could be 10. But my point remain, the same GH modulation would happen with every other serm as far as we know.


Another thing that the study disclose which is interesting but irrelevent in the "to tamox or not" discussion is, they can't figure out if the increase in GH levels in hypogonadal male or constitutionally delayed boys when administered exogenous T (steroids, normal replacement therapy dosage) comes from the testosterone itself on the androgen receptor or from the estrogen receptor after aromatization. Meh, I'm a geek I guess to be interested in such useless shit. But at least a geek who can ****ING READ A STUDY CORRECTLY.

:D


Wait wait, if estrogen receptors play a stimulatory role in GH stimulation maybe the reason why most people keep saying they get better results on steroids with low to no AI in their cycle is because there is more growth hormone and better IGF-1 stimulation due to the elevated androgens and estrogens?

interesting... We'll probably never know for sure though, don't take this to the bank guys.

[gustavo77]

Errmm Gus, do you realize the study is about estrogen receptor blockade affecting GH levels in male puberty? Meaning, clomid would probably reproduce the same results on adolescent males? And maybe the results wouldn't be the same on hypogonadal adult males? I just find it strange when keyboard athlete interpret results every which way. The full PDF dosen't even disclose the amount administered. It could be 100mg, it could be 10. But my point remain, the same GH modulation would happen with every other serm as far as we know.


Another thing that the study disclose which is interesting but irrelevent in the "to tamox or not" discussion is, they can't figure out if the increase in GH levels in hypogonadal male or constitutionally delayed boys when administered exogenous T (steroids, normal replacement therapy dosage) comes from the testosterone itself on the androgen receptor or from the estrogen receptor after aromatization. Meh, I'm a geek I guess to be interested in such useless shit. But at least a geek who can ****ING READ A STUDY CORRECTLY.

:D


Wait wait, if estrogen receptors play a stimulatory role in GH stimulation maybe the reason why most people keep saying they get better results on steroids with low to no AI in their cycle is because there is more growth hormone and better IGF-1 stimulation due to the elevated androgens and estrogens?

interesting... We'll probably never know for sure though, don't take this to the bank guys.


Well i have to say if you can find a clinical study on nolva's effects on hypogonadal males i would love to see it. Seriously...

Now i may not be as smart in this area as you but my thinking is that if nolva can lower GH and IGF-1 in male puberty, there is no reason to suspect that there would not be a similar negative effect on hypogonadol males.

Just so you know, AI's do not block the estrogen receptor they decrease the production of estrogen directly.... Since you can read studies so well, check this one out:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/12/5951?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=estrogen+male+muscle+metabolism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=70&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

[gustavo77]

Errmm Gus, do you realize the study is about estrogen receptor blockade affecting GH levels in male puberty? Meaning, clomid would probably reproduce the same results on adolescent males? And maybe the results wouldn't be the same on hypogonadal adult males? I just find it strange when keyboard athlete interpret results every which way....

By the way, love the keyboard athlete comment...lol...i have to remember that one...:puff

[Neavris]

The main point I was making is that the estrogen receptor blockade is what affect GH and IGF-1. There is no reason to believe tamoxifene is worst in this area than clomid and/or foreston simply from reading that study.

The rest is just speculation derived from the full study not the excerpt, which you can get by clicking "full text" in the upper right corner.

[gustavo77]

The main point I was making is that the estrogen receptor blockade is what affect GH and IGF-1. There is no reason to believe tamoxifene is worst in this area than clomid and/or foreston simply from reading that study.


I see your point...