Another reason the dogma of the GI is retarded

[5151]

In an earlier thread me and a couple other members discussed carbohydrate and food choices in general. My contention throughout the entire thread was that if calories and macros are controlled you can eat pretty much whatever the hell you want. I think a balanced approach is best however and that eating for micronutrition can be a rewarding practice. Anyway I see tons of bodybuilders basing their diets solely around the GI which as stated in the thread title is retarded. The reasons for eating based on the GI are pretty much always insulin based. So...



Research Review

Schenk S et. al. Different glycemic indexes of breakfast cereals are not due to glucose entry into blood but to glucose removal by tissue. Am J Clin Nutr. (2003) 78(4):742-8.

BACKGROUND: The glycemic index (GI) of a food is thought to directly reflect the rate of digestion and entry of glucose into the systemic circulation. The blood glucose concentration, however, represents a balance of both the entry and the removal of glucose into and from the blood, respectively. Such direct quantification of the postprandial glucose curve with respect to interpreting the GI is lacking in the literature. OBJECTIVE: We compared the plasma glucose kinetics of low- and high-GI breakfast cereals. DESIGN: On 2 occasions, plasma insulin concentrations and plasma glucose kinetics (by constant-rate infusion of [6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose) were measured in 6 healthy males for 180 min after they fasted overnight and then consumed an amount of corn flakes (CF) or bran cereal (BC) containing 50 g available carbohydrate. RESULTS: The GI of CF was more than twice that of BC (131.5 +/- 33.0 compared with 54.5 +/- 7.2; P < 0.05), despite no significant differences in the rate of appearance of glucose into the plasma during the 180-min period. Postprandial hyperinsulinemia occurred earlier with BC than with CF, resulting in a 76&#37; higher plasma insulin concentration at 20 min (20.4 +/- 4.5 compared with 11.6 +/- 2.1 micro U/mL; P < 0.05). This was associated with a 31% higher rate of disappearance of glucose with BC than with CF during the 30-60-min period (28.7 +/- 3.1 compared with 21.9 +/- 3.1 micro mol. kg(-)(1). min(-)(1); P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: The lower GI of BC than of CF was not due to a lower rate of appearance of glucose but instead to an earlier postprandial hyperinsulinemia and an earlier increase in the rate of disappearance of glucose, which attenuated the increase in the plasma glucose concentration.

[Ritch]

Then how would you explain this? Say I was to drink a shake. One had oats and whey the other grape juice and whey. The one with oats and whey will leave me feeling fuller longer, don`t forget the fiber which will slow digestion. I`m still not buying into this GI dosen`t matter thing. As far as I`m concerned there can be all kinds of data showing me it dosen`t matter, it just tells me there`s a piece of the puzzle we don`t understand. We have the answer, but just can`t explain why.

[5151]

Then how would you explain this? Say I was to drink a shake. One had oats and whey the other grape juice and whey. The one with oats and whey will leave me feeling fuller longer, don`t forget the fiber which will slow digestion. I`m still not buying into this GI dosen`t matter thing. As far as I`m concerned there can be all kinds of data showing me it dosen`t matter, it just tells me there`s a piece of the puzzle we don`t understand. We have the answer, but just can`t explain why.

Haha I almost titled this thread "hey Ritch I don't want to post in the old thread but look at this study"

I'm off to bed now but some quick comments would be that the amount of grape juice necessary to rival blended oats calorically would be quite substantial and probably keep you bloated a while solely from the amount of liquid necessary. The one thing I like about your post is it sort of relates to my message initially is that looking solely at GI and insulin is too shortsighted there are a whole other host of hormones at work that need to be considered. For example I believe leptin levels can change drastically from a single meal. Like I said I'll be in and out this week as I've got and exam to study for this weekend but hopefully we can come up with some interesting conversation.

[Ritch]

LOL! Sounds good, looking forward to this discussion as well, don`t forget to eat some complex carbs before studying...

[5151]

LOL! Sounds good, looking forward to this discussion as well, don`t forget to eat some complex carbs before studying...

Haha I ate a 1.5lb yam after my workout today...before the ice cream. I now base my produce purchases purely on size.

[Ritch]

Haha I ate a 1.5lb yam after my workout today...before the ice cream. I now base my produce purchases purely on size.

Any butter with the yam? Some protein with that?

[BDH]

I had a Quarter Pounder combo earlier, and just made myself bacon eggs and toast before bed... which do you think will make me fatter??? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

[Huitogi20]

xxx

[5151]

oh hi

[5151]

Then how would you explain this? Say I was to drink a shake. One had oats and whey the other grape juice and whey. The one with oats and whey will leave me feeling fuller longer, don`t forget the fiber which will slow digestion. I`m still not buying into this GI dosen`t matter thing. As far as I`m concerned there can be all kinds of data showing me it dosen`t matter, it just tells me there`s a piece of the puzzle we don`t understand. We have the answer, but just can`t explain why.

I'm chalking this up to the fiber as you mentioned and 300 cals(which is about a cup of oats) worth of grape juice is much larger than either of us are imagining I'm thinking as I don't know the last time I drank juice. Also ground up oats probably still have the same consistency as properly masticated oats. Meaning the stomach will still recognize it as food not liquid food. I can easily dig up some studies about liquid meals not be as satiating as whole food which is nothing to be surprised about.
I forget your reasoning for advocating lower GI still. Is it based on the it making you feel fuller longer right now? I think the diabetes thing is out the window at this point.

Insulin contributing to fatloss is still something I want to learn more about. I think it's highly misunderstood. I should be done with school until january after tomorrow so I'll probably be more actively reading the research then.

[5151]

I had a Quarter Pounder combo earlier, and just made myself bacon eggs and toast before bed... which do you think will make me fatter??? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

i didn't know increased testosterone lead to fat gain ;)

[Musclehead]

The GI is a very good tool for your diet whether it's off season or contest prep time.

[5151]

The GI is a very good tool for your diet whether it's off season or contest prep time.

why?

[Musclehead]

I find it to be helpfull to understand how foods affect your blood glucose levels. All in all though, it all comes down to calories in vs calories out.....so in the end I guess it doesn't matter all that much.

[5151]

I find it to be helpfull to understand how foods affect your blood glucose levels. All in all though, it all comes down to calories in vs calories out.....so in the end I guess it doesn't matter all that much.

That's a fair reason but don't most people who eat by the GI base their food choices around oats, whole wheat things, brown rice etc? This study is showing that these foods cause a greater spike in insulin than what are typically thought of as high GI foods. I suppose the question comes down to would you rather have a spike or prolonged elevated levels? We have been eating low GI to avoid spikes but it appears this is the opposite in what in what is happening. I couldn't agree more with calories in vs calories out.

[5151]

Still retarded:

Glycaemic index effects on fuel partitioning in humans.
Díaz EO, Galgani JE, Aguirre CA.

Laboratory of Energy Metabolism and Stable Isotopes, Institute of Nutrition and Food Technology (INTA), University of Chile, Ave. El Libano 5524, Macul, Santiago, Chile. ediaz@inta.cl

The purpose of this review was to examine the role of glycaemic index in fuel partitioning and body composition with emphasis on fat oxidation/storage in humans. This relationship is based on the hypothesis postulating that a higher serum glucose and insulin response induced by high-glycaemic carbohydrates promotes lower fat oxidation and higher fat storage in comparison with low-glycaemic carbohydrates. Thus, high-glycaemic index meals could contribute to the maintenance of excess weight in obese individuals and/or predispose obesity-prone subjects to weight gain. Several studies comparing the effects of meals with contrasting glycaemic carbohydrates for hours, days or weeks have failed to demonstrate any differential effect on fuel partitioning when either substrate oxidation or body composition measurements were performed. Apparently, the glycaemic index-induced serum insulin differences are not sufficient in magnitude and/or duration to modify fuel oxidation.

Man this board is dead lately.

[tiramisu]

I am positive that when I eat high gi crap that my blood sugar spikes and then it crashes and I am left confused, mean and generally eat like a starving retard shortly after.

I can't tell you whether there is a chemical relation between this and fat gain but there is definitely a behavioral one.

[5151]

I am positive that when I eat high gi crap that my blood sugar spikes and then it crashes and I am left confused, mean and generally eat like a starving retard shortly after.

I can't tell you whether there is a chemical relation between this and fat gain but there is definitely a behavioral one.

There is no doubt that simple sugars elevate blood sugar for a prolonged period. Chronically elevated insulin will lead to mood swings and hunger(I think this varies from person to person. Actually I don't think I know that different foods have a different GI in different people. But insulin sensitivity surely plays a role as well). But my arguement is always if you can control calories you are alright. I do this by eating my sweets prior to meals. I believe when looking at carb sources you should look for: shit you can eat on a regular basis and micronutrition.

[O-Train]

why?

If you don't know than maybe a good idea would be to not start threads regarding the subject.

I mean for starters look at the first line of your last post. "There is no doubt that simple sugars elevate blood sugar for a prolonged period." Where do I even start. Maybe consider getting an education on the subject before you start claiming a bunch of random things.

[5151]

If you don't know than maybe a good idea would be to not start threads regarding the subject.

I mean for starters look at the first line of your last post. "There is no doubt that simple sugars elevate blood sugar for a prolonged period." Where do I even start. Maybe consider getting an education on the subject before you start claiming a bunch of random things.

This thread would be a form of education, no?
I appreciate your comment which basically amounts to: "you're wrong because you're wrong." No real counter arguement. I'd love to hear your opinion on the subject.

Do simple sugars elevate blood sugar as much as whole wheat bread or potatoes? absolutely not. Potatoes and whole wheat bread are much worse. Other than hunger/mood issues, much of which I feel is invented by people to reinforce their old beliefs, why does it matter?

My thoughts on the subject are pretty obvious. So for your "where do I even start?" comment how about why elevated blood sugar in a calorie deficit is going to negatively affect fat loss?

As for "claiming a bunch of random things," if that's what you mean by making assumptions based on peer reviewed research to which NO ONE has presented anything to the contrary, yeah I guess that's random.

I'm glad this thread has sparked some interest again. I look forward to your retort as this is a subject I find particularly interesting. Hopefully you don't take the route so many others do on this board: "Yo bro you don't get it, I'm not going to waste my time."

[5151]

I hear crickets