Keto Diet - how many carbs/day?

[kloan]

On the Keto diet.. we're still ok to eat some carbs every day, aren't we?

How do you guys go about it?

With breakfast, or does it matter? I've seen some say before 6pm..

I find this all really confusing.

I've got as far as 1gram protein per 1lb lmm... and I'm supposed to cut carbs out almost completely, but fibrous vegetables such as broccoli or asparagus is ok... but how much of that is ok to eat, and when during the day?

Is oatmeal ok in the morning? We still need fiber every day... so I'm kinda lost with this. I've read the how-to over and over, but I'm still not making sense of it.

My source of fats is from nuts and olive oil, as well as cheese/cottage cheese.

Protein is coming from eggs, chicken, lamb, lean beef once or twice a week, cottage cheese, whey.

Carbs... absolutely clueless on...

[The Brick]

For a true keto diet you should only be consuming trace carbs. That means only small amounts that are found in proteins and fats. You can't take in any direct carb sources (ie oatmeal).

[The Brick]

Check out my diet in the journal and logs section to see the low carb diet I follow.

[kloan]

oh crap. so i shouldn't be eating any carbs at all... damn, and i just bought broccoli and asparagus... but i can eat them friday/saturday for carb loading, right? oats, i can keep in the cupboard.

post workout, dextrose i see is recommended in a shake.. is frozen concentrated orange juice in the shake ok, or should i nix that?

so... is there a rebound effect when people start eating carbs again?


Check out my diet in the journal and logs section to see the low carb diet I follow.

yep, read that earlier... i've seen some people say they eat some veggies with 2 of their meals.. so that's where the confusion came from. i saw you eat green salads with your meal.. is that just so that it's easier to get the oil in ya? cuz that's what i've been doing... baby spinach with feta, olive oil and lemon.. dash of salt.

[gsxr750]

I did 0 carbs for 2 weeks to get into deep ketosis and now I just try and consume less than 20g a day ( from walnuts, asparagus, broccoli, salads )

At less than 20g carbs a day I still show high levels of ketones in my urine according to the keto-stix.

[The Brick]

Is there a particular diet plan you are following Kloan? or are you just trying to do a low carb diet for fat loss?

If you want to do a true "keto" diet it's very restrictive, it's called "keto" because it's meant to bring your body into Ketosis (a state in which your metabolism uses fat for energy due to a absence of carbs). If you just want to do a "low carb" diet, depending on the degree you want to go to vegetables can be ok. The dextrose is probably a no go though.

[The Brick]

I agree that aiming for less than 20-30 grams of carbs is more reasonable and works better for me too.

[kloan]

I want to do the Keto diet. I want to drop my bf significantly.

I've never, ever been on a diet before so it's going to be extremely difficult for me.. but I think I'm up for the challenge. I want to see what I'm working with without the damn layer of fat hiding what I've gained in the last 6 months.

I'm also doing it to prep for my first cycle.. so I'd like to lose the fat as quickly as possible, so Keto seems to be the way to go.

Alright, so for 2 weeks NO CARBS (except trace amounts from the protein and fat sources).

As far as the dextrose, that's from the keto info I read.. it basically said that right after a workout, it's ok because the body is going to burn it off instead of store it.

Since this is so new to me, I should go pick up some of those ketostix I've read about, to know I'm actually doing it right... can they be bought at any drug store?

Also, what about fiber intake? For someone who has a sluggish digestive system, is it going to be detrimental to not have any significant sources of fiber for 2 weeks? I know for some, that can potentially cause hemorrhoids.

[The Brick]

Sure, you can do carbs in the post work out meal. I used to do that as well. It's not going to be a true keto diet, and you won't go into ketosis for sure with the dextrose, but that's not saying it still wont be an effective diet.

If you get time, post up your diet and stats.

[gsxr750]

I'd say skip the post workout carbs too man. This diet is for cutting BF and PWO carbs aren't gonna make much difference for that.

If anything - Have your whey shake and consider adding some Benefibre to your PWO shake. This will keep everything moving ( and avoid blood in stool ask me how I know ) and will be about 5-10g of carbs PWO.

Other than that, I would avoid the carbs. The first 2 weeks will be tough, you will feel very sluggish and hungry, but after that you're gravy.. it gets alot easier.

Keep your cardio around 130BPM and no higher, and do steady state cardio in Keto not HIIT.

Your strength will also go down considerably but do your best to keep your weight higher and your reps lower. Drink alot of water! Keep us updated!

[The Brick]

Also, what about fiber intake? For someone who has a sluggish digestive system, is it going to be detrimental to not have any significant sources of fiber for 2 weeks? I know for some, that can potentially cause hemorrhoids.

for fiber, Metamucil or a similar fiber supp will keep things going lol

[The Brick]

lol seems like me and gsxr are on the same page here...

[kloan]

Heh, alright guys... thanks!

I still need to get a multi vitamin and fiber supp, then I'm all set. Damn, I was hoping today was the first day.... oh well guess tomorrow will be my official beginning. :)

[The Brick]

Good luck man, the first weeks can be very trying. Trust me, after week 2 its way easier.

Like I said, post you diet when you get time, and we will double check it if you like.

[gsxr750]

Cook a bunch of stuff and freeze it so you're never without meals.. BBQ 24+ sausages and freeze them and take a few out the night before etc.

I buy eye of round roasts and slice them up into like 20 steaks and freeze them too.

Will help you if you're ever in a pinch! That and having a few extra baggies of whey available at all times :) Good luck !

[kloan]

I got laid off recently, so at least I won't be working during this stage...

I just went grocery shopping, bought eggs, full fat cottage cheese, cheese, nuts, peanut butter, chicken breasts, sausages (lamb and pork), olive oil, canned tuna, canned turkey. So, I'll basically be eating this and the whey for the next two weeks.

[L3]

wow this does not sound fun at all...

[liquidfire]

Hey bro, check this out:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/

I've got both The Ketogenic Diet book and the Ultimate Diet 2.0 book. Both are very informative reads even if you don't follow the diets he lays out exactly. When I say he lays out a diet I don't mean exactly what food you should eat in a given day but what amount of calories, protein, fat, and carb you should have...

[Ritch]

Well good luck man, wish you all the best given the fact this has to be the most difficult diet to follow especially as you say it`s the first dieting. You seem set on doing it and that is good. The priming the body theory is logical but just don`t think you need to do keto to prime the body. I don`t want to discourage you but I have only known one person who ever succeeded doing a keto diet natural. If he was indeed natural but whatever. I hope this dosen`t sound negative, just stating what I`ve noticed over the years. Your plan is good for someone doing keto and it`s a big plus you`re not working now. Defenitely eat as much real food as possible. Keep us posted bro I hope it works out.

[trykillthis]

I got laid off recently, so at least I won't be working during this stage...

I just went grocery shopping, bought eggs, full fat cottage cheese, cheese, nuts, peanut butter, chicken breasts, sausages (lamb and pork), olive oil, canned tuna, canned turkey. So, I'll basically be eating this and the whey for the next two weeks.

Don't include either of these in your diet. You'll just make it harder on yourself with the carbs in them.

[kloan]

I think part of the problem is that I was reading up on the CKD not the full Keto diet... so that's why I had the impression some carbs were still ok.

I need to figure out which is better for me.

[trykillthis]

You won't avoid carbs completely. Your diet kinda looks like a palumbo style diet. You are gonna get some carbs from your protein shakes, PB, and nuts but you want to keep it to just that. Only from the whole foods you're eating. Palumbo is pretty firm on no cheeses and NO post workout carbs. Once you switch your body over to using fats for your primary source of energy if you give yourself some carbs it makes it really hard on you for cravings.

Sorry, hope that all made sense. Been doing a lot of reading on Palumbo this week.

[kloan]

I think I'm leaning towards the CKD. Where on Fridays 3 hours before my last workout of the week, I have some fruit.. do my workout, follow with a shake with high liquid carbs then do the carb load from Friday night to Saturday night. Then back to fat/protein for the week.

Without the help of any test. and because I'm still weight training, I think doing no carbs for two weeks straight might cause muscle loss.

I read up on the CKD from here:
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/nutrition/2156-cdk-cyclical.html

[Ritch]

Don`t forget all of Palumbo`s clients are pro`s who are on gear. I strongly advise not doing that type of diet natural. Your strength will go to shits, having no carbs postworkout will leave you beyond flat and will just feel tired. Honestly you can get lean doing something a little more normal, this is way extreme it`s for people who compete. Just my take.

[JonnyO]

I think I'm leaning towards the CKD. Where on Fridays 3 hours before my last workout of the week, I have some fruit.. do my workout, follow with a shake with high liquid carbs then do the carb load from Friday night to Saturday night. Then back to fat/protein for the week.

Without the help of any test. and because I'm still weight training, I think doing no carbs for two weeks straight might cause muscle loss.

I read up on the CKD from here:
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/nutrition/2156-cdk-cyclical.html

This would be more a keto diet and youd have to be in ketosis for it to work. The fruit before the depletion workout, such as an apple of banana pulls you out of ketosis for the workout. Then load after the workout, if you want to supercompensate, liquid carbs for the first 6 meals like waxy maize would be best followed by higher gi whole foods like bagels and cereals. After the first 24-36hrs go to more complex carbs and use for GDA at this time as well. Oh man I think this is too much for me to type out here and going into supercompensation, and I dont think you really want that for yourself.

If youve never dieted before I'd go with a low carb diet, keto takes some planning...maint cals minus 10%. 30% protein 70% fats....going into ketosis is a bitch this is why I think youd be better off with a lower carb diet at first to get the feel of dieting.

[JonnyO]

Don`t forget all of Palumbo`s clients are pro`s who are on gear. I strongly advise not doing that type of diet natural. Your strength will go to shits, having no carbs postworkout will leave you beyond flat and will just feel tired. Honestly you can get lean doing something a little more normal, this is way extreme it`s for people who compete. Just my take.


TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU THERE.

Bodyopus was originally designed for those who were not enhanced.

[Ritch]

No problem with that could you tell me which parts, why?

[kloan]

This would be more a keto diet and youd have to be in ketosis for it to work. The fruit before the depletion workout, such as an apple of banana pulls you out of ketosis for the workout. Then load after the workout, if you want to supercompensate, liquid carbs for the first 6 meals like waxy maize would be best followed by higher gi whole foods like bagels and cereals. After the first 24-36hrs go to more complex carbs and use for GDA at this time as well. Oh man I think this is too much for me to type out here and going into supercompensation, and I dont think you really want that for yourself.

If youve never dieted before I'd go with a low carb diet, keto takes some planning...maint cals minus 10%. 30% protein 70% fats....going into ketosis is a bitch this is why I think youd be better off with a lower carb diet at first to get the feel of dieting.
So far, it's what I'm following. I haven't quite hit the fat ratio I need though... I'm finding that difficult. As I increase them, I find I'm approaching my limit for calories.. which are pretty low at around 1500/day.

I'm 5'6.5", 168-170lbs. Bf% is around 18.

What is the difference between 'low carb' diet and the CKD?

[trykillthis]

Don`t forget all of Palumbo`s clients are pro`s who are on gear. I strongly advise not doing that type of diet natural. Your strength will go to shits, having no carbs postworkout will leave you beyond flat and will just feel tired. Honestly you can get lean doing something a little more normal, this is way extreme it`s for people who compete. Just my take.


He gives the exact same diet to natural guys too. The only thing that really gets tweaked for the individual is the portion sizes.

After the first couple of days you feel a lot better and have more energy. As for being flat, you're dieting, I don't see what the big deal is. Get the BF% down and you can start eating more normal and you'll be jacked all day.

[vazsek]

keto is the only diet i have ever had any success with, i find it very easy to follow. the first 3 or 4 days is a little tough but then its smooth sailing for me. everybody is different though and it is rough on some people, i have freinds that have horrible cravings when on and i find that once i am depleted i have zero cravings and i have to set the alarm on my phone so i remember to eat.

i do include some complex carbs, usauly around 25-30g pre workout.

for the low energy days coffee is your freind or if your braver an ECA stack is the ticket.

[kloan]

I've got caffeine.. but I want to get ephedrine. I had some, but can't seem to find it.

Shitty thing is right now I'm completely broke. So anything I'm missing has to wait. I'm trying to get my final pay from my work, but it's starting to seem like they're trying to **** me. Won't know til Friday.


Anyway, on this diet.. is it normal to be getting constant hot flashes?

[vazsek]

I've got caffeine.. but I want to get ephedrine. I had some, but can't seem to find it.

Shitty thing is right now I'm completely broke. So anything I'm missing has to wait. I'm trying to get my final pay from my work, but it's starting to seem like they're trying to **** me. Won't know til Friday.


Anyway, on this diet.. is it normal to be getting constant hot flashes?

never had hot flashes before, just a headache now and then if i let myself get dehydrated, get used to packing a water bottle around with you and stopping every 15 miles for a leak when your traveling lol.

[kloan]

Yeah, I've had a headache most of the day and feel like crap overall.. been drinking lots of water though.

[trykillthis]

Give it a few days and you'll feel fine. You're just like a crackhead coming off the high test shit right now. Your body will switch over and you'll feel normal again.

[kloan]

Found this site.. seems like a good resource to check how many carbs are in veggies:
http://www.carbohydrate-counter.org/veg/

[5151]

you can pretty much eat all the below at whatever rate you like:
Lettuce
Spinach
Rabe
Collard Greens
Escarole
Cucumbers
Celery

[trykillthis]

I make big ass salads with lettuce and cuke. Get a funny look when you got to pay for 9 cukes at once.

[gsxr750]

Next time ring through 9 cukes and 1 pack of condoms.

[kloan]

lol...

[Ritch]

I once saw a hot chick at the grocery store buying just one cucumber. I was thinking nasty things... Who buys just one cucumber?

[kloan]

i feel like crap.. todays workout is gonna be tough

[Ritch]

have another cucumber...

[gsxr750]

Up your EFAS, take in more fish oils and flax oils should help.. it gets easier in time.

[Praetorian]

For the keto diet you should still have approx 30-50g from carbs daily coming from trace carbs and veggies. Training still requires glycogen from carbs as ketone bodie will not do. Thus the carbs from egg yolks, nuts, and some veggie mainly green beans and spinach. High fatty foods are not good either or are dairy products...way too much fat and carbs (lactose). The fat intake should be approx 20-30g per meal depending on the individual BW etc.
P

PS it takes 3 full days to get into ketosis and 2 full weeks to fully adapt. After that time you can add a cheat meal once per week.

[kloan]

thanks for the input

ive been eating pork sausages with breakfast.. im eliminating that. i never ate pork normally, so i dont like eating it now.. it's not healthy, regardless of fat for the diet.

im going to pick up coconut and flax oil to start supplementing with, along with the olive oil and fish oils.

other than that, i've been eating baby spinach salads, and small portions of broccoli. i have been eating some dairy, mainly goat feta and havarti (both have no carbs).

i'm still adjusting the diet, and getting idea of what my body likes and doesn't like. right now, i feel much better than i did earlier in the day. i did take 400mg of caffeine today, so i'm sure that has something to do with it... hehe...

i'm in ketosis, no doubt about that. i've been pissing like a race horse.. and i have actually noticed a slight drop in bf already. though that could be attributed to stopping creatine (water weight). anyway, i'm lookin forward to the end result. :)

[gsxr750]

Excellent Kloan! Keep us updated on your progress please :) Stay focused i'm confident you'll be very happy with the results in a few weeks time!

If you're in Toronto I don't know if they have No Frills there or not but they do here in the GTA..

Sale on Striploin Roasts.. $1.99/LB. I got $100 worth. One $12 chunk of meat gets you a good 18+ striploin steaks :D Stock up!

[kloan]

good deal! is it quality meat? i generally try to stick to naturally raised meats.. but given the amount i'm eating with this diet, i think i can bend the rules a bit....

[trykillthis]

No processed meats. Once your body switches to fats for energy you will feel better. I would cut the dairy. Unnecessary carbs from the lactose. The more stuff like that you leave in the diet the harder you'll make it on yourself.

I just ****ed up 3 weeks of dieting because I didn't realize that splenda counts as a carb and I was using it lots. I thought it was like diet pop and I could go nuts. Then weight loss stopped and cravings started to get really really bad which lead to a couple cheats. Not to mention just being miserable.

Looking back it all makes sense but I wish I noticed earlier. Just enough carbs to stay outta ketosis and keep my brain hurtin for more.

Hope that helps.

Go nuts with the salads. I have a big ass one with my meals. Just watch what you put on it.

[gsxr750]

Good info!

Aspartame and sucralose are fine. EQUAL and SPLENDA are not because they contain maltodextrin.

[kloan]

I would cut the dairy. Unnecessary carbs from the lactose.

They both have 0 carbs according to the nutritional facts labels. I like to use the goat feta on salad for flavouring, and a chunk of havarti with nuts.

I just noticed my protein powder has 5 grams of carbs per scoop. That can add up fast. I wonder if there are any with fewer carbs.. aside from plain whey.

edit: oh, the feta has 1gr per 3cmx3cm serving.. i use 1/2 that... i wonder if there's lactose reduced or free cheese..

[gsxr750]

I am using Ultimate Nutrition Whey Sensation 81. 2 grams carbs per scoup and 24g protein.

It is also only $85 for 10 pounds.

[kloan]

I am using Ultimate Nutrition Whey Sensation 81. 2 grams carbs per scoup and 24g protein.

It is also only $85 for 10 pounds.
Cool.. I'll order some of that if/when I get my money... so far it looks like my work is trying to **** me over. All calls and emails have gone unanswered...

[Praetorian]

There are many keto type diets out there but when it comes to BB there are certain things to keep in mind.
1. NO dairy...it contains lactose ie sugar...its gotta go!
2. Nothing processed. Deli meats and processed meats are CRAP literally there is no place for them in BB diet.
3. Use omega 3 fish oils, nut oils, and olive oil...flax is secondary.
4. The darker the veggie ie spinach the better
5. Weight loss during the first two weeks is 90% water.
6. Ketostix are not accurate on training athletes so dont use them
7. Stay below 50 but above 30g carbs...you still need them to train (trace only and veggies)
8. Eat 6 evenly spaced out meals per day
9.Have veggies in two of the meals
10. Watch for trace carbs in protein powder etc...whole foods are better


P

[kloan]

Some great info, thanks man. I'll ditch the dairy, and skip the flax. Is coconut oil good?

[Praetorian]

I would limit coconut oil as it is primarily saturated fat and predominantly medium chain triglycerides. Omega 3's (nut and fish oil) are much better for dieting and a small amount of olive oil.
P

[kloan]

Oh, ok.. good to know, thanks. I'll skip that too then.

I'm just trying to find a liquid oil so that I can put it in my shakes. At this point, I'm consuming too much olive oil.. and it tastes gross (and giving me heartburn).

I have fish oils in pills, but they're only 1gr each.

I'll hunt for some liquid omega oils that aren't too expensive.

[5151]

Oh, ok.. good to know, thanks. I'll skip that too then.

I'm just trying to find a liquid oil so that I can put it in my shakes. At this point, I'm consuming too much olive oil.. and it takes gross (and giving me heartburn).

I have fish oils in pills, but they're only 1gr each.

I'll hunt for some liquid omega oils that aren't too expensive.

check out walnut oil for some variety. It's probably also the most beneficial nut going.

[5151]

There are many keto type diets out there but when it comes to BB there are certain things to keep in mind.
1. NO dairy...it contains lactose ie sugar...its gotta go!
2. Nothing processed. Deli meats and processed meats are CRAP literally there is no place for them in BB diet.
3. Use omega 3 fish oils, nut oils, and olive oil...flax is secondary.
4. The darker the veggie ie spinach the better
5. Weight loss during the first two weeks is 90% water.
6. Ketostix are not accurate on training athletes so dont use them
7. Stay below 50 but above 30g carbs...you still need them to train (trace only and veggies)
8. Eat 6 evenly spaced out meals per day
9.Have veggies in two of the meals
10. Watch for trace carbs in protein powder etc...whole foods are better


P

I agree with most of what you say I just have to ask what your issue with deli meats and why 6 meals a day are necessary.

[trykillthis]

check out walnut oil for some variety. It's probably also the most beneficial nut going.

Macadamia nut oil is the top of the heap. Just had a gallon and a bit show up here yesterday.:D

Try get a lower carb whey next time around.

[trykillthis]

I agree with most of what you say I just have to ask what your issue with deli meats and why 6 meals a day are necessary.



6 meals a day is better because if you went to 7 the meals would be too small and you wouldn't feel as satisfied. If you went to 5 your stomach won't shrink very much and there will be too long between meals. 6 six is just right.

Deli meats, I am not too sure, but I think it has to do with the smoking or curing, and the fact that you really don't know whats in there.

[trykillthis]

There are many keto type diets out there but when it comes to BB there are certain things to keep in mind.
1. NO dairy...it contains lactose ie sugar...its gotta go!
2. Nothing processed. Deli meats and processed meats are CRAP literally there is no place for them in BB diet.
3. Use omega 3 fish oils, nut oils, and olive oil...flax is secondary.
4. The darker the veggie ie spinach the better
5. Weight loss during the first two weeks is 90% water.
6. Ketostix are not accurate on training athletes so dont use them
7. Stay below 50 but above 30g carbs...you still need them to train (trace only and veggies)
8. Eat 6 evenly spaced out meals per day
9.Have veggies in two of the meals
10. Watch for trace carbs in protein powder etc...whole foods are better


P


Amen!

[kloan]

I agree with most of what you say I just have to ask what your issue with deli meats and why 6 meals a day are necessary.
Deli meats are highly processed. I try to avoid as much processed foods as possible. They have nitrites, preservatives and other nasty ingredients that aren't at all good for us.

I'll check out the macadamia and walnut oils.. I didn't know they made either of those! :)

[kloan]

I found a great website for looking up nutritional facts.

Found out cashews are high in carbs... I've been eating a fair amount, they're in a nut mixture I bought at No Frills. I'm gonna have to be more careful in the future.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/

oh man.. i'm gonna avoid nuts altogether now...

Nuts (serving size 1/2 cup) Carbs (g)
Almonds, dried 9g
Brazil nuts 9g
Cashew nuts, dry roasted 22g
Hazelnuts (3oz) 5g
Peanuts, roasted (3oz) 10g
Pecans, dry roasted (1oz) 6g
Pistachio nuts, dry roasted 16g
Walnuts 8g

[5151]

I found a great website for looking up nutritional facts.

Found out cashews are high in carbs... I've been eating a fair amount, they're in a nut mixture I bought at No Frills. I'm gonna have to be more careful in the future.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/

oh man.. i'm gonna avoid nuts altogether now...

Nuts (serving size 1/2 cup) Carbs (g)
Almonds, dried 9g
Brazil nuts 9g
Cashew nuts, dry roasted 22g
Hazelnuts (3oz) 5g
Peanuts, roasted (3oz) 10g
Pecans, dry roasted (1oz) 6g
Pistachio nuts, dry roasted 16g
Walnuts 8g

How much of the carb amount is fiber? Keep in mind you want to be getting adequate EFAs.


6 meals a day is better because if you went to 7 the meals would be too small and you wouldn't feel as satisfied. If you went to 5 your stomach won't shrink very much and there will be too long between meals. 6 six is just right.

Deli meats, I am not too sure, but I think it has to do with the smoking or curing, and the fact that you really don't know whats in there.

From what I understand the stomach doesn't actually shrink and expand. It is elastic and has a set size. It responds to the size of meal and how much of a stretch occurs which signals the brain indicating satiation. Intuitively that would mean 5 meals a day are more likely to stretch the stomach further and leave you feeling fuller.

With deli meats it is trusting the store like anything else you buy there. It comes with a label.

[trykillthis]

From what I understand the stomach doesn't actually shrink and expand. It is elastic and has a set size. It responds to the size of meal and how much of a stretch occurs which signals the brain indicating satiation. Intuitively that would mean 5 meals a day are more likely to stretch the stomach further and leave you feeling fuller.



It shrinks. Try eating a big cheat meal that you know you would have easily demolished before dieting. No where near the same amount of room.


And I wouldn't worry about the cashews. I have it listed in my diet as OK. One of the meals is 8 oz. chicken breast and 1/2 cup cashews, almonds or walnuts. I love cashews.

Nuts are OK just stick with those 3 and all natural PB.

[5151]

It shrinks. Try eating a big cheat meal that you know you would have easily demolished before dieting. No where near the same amount of room.


And I wouldn't worry about the cashews. I have it listed in my diet as OK. One of the meals is 8 oz. chicken breast and 1/2 cup cashews, almonds or walnuts. I love cashews.

Nuts are OK just stick with those 3 and all natural PB.

With regards to stomach size that's what I'm saying it really doesn't shrink or grow as I think of those as relatively permanent terms. After the food is digested it always returns back to it's original size which varies from person to person. I think it adapts to the size of average meals and signals the brain as to whether or not it's full based on that.
I'd put pecans ahead of cashews any day.

[trykillthis]

I agree with the stomach thing. I think if you average meals tend to be smaller it will not be able to just jump right back to where it used to be and you would have to work back up to it. Kinda like what those competitive eaters do.

[kloan]

Just hit the grocery store... man that was hard. Sooooooo many cravings!!!! I miss FRUIT dammit!! :D

Got me some turkey souvlaki, lamb souvlaki, chicken thighs, haddock, full fat renee's caesar dressing, cucumbers, more baby spinach and eggs.

They didn't have the roast though.. or any oils other than the usual canola, olive, vegetable :(

[kloan]

Strength is back! Had a good workout.... :)

Seeing some slight improvements in definition... the diet sucks, and I'm craving fruit like nothing else... but it's worth the hard work and sacrifice.. I'll have the body I've always wanted in no time. :)

Also, I think my testosterone is coming back to a normal level... I can feel a difference there as well.

[Praetorian]

I agree with most of what you say I just have to ask what your issue with deli meats and why 6 meals a day are necessary.

Deli meats are the cheapest sources of protein and full of nitrites....not good!! ^ meals to keep a good steady supply of amino acids to the body to preserve muscle while burning fat as fuel.
P

[Praetorian]

I found a great website for looking up nutritional facts.

Found out cashews are high in carbs... I've been eating a fair amount, they're in a nut mixture I bought at No Frills. I'm gonna have to be more careful in the future.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/

oh man.. i'm gonna avoid nuts altogether now...

Nuts (serving size 1/2 cup) Carbs (g)
Almonds, dried 9g
Brazil nuts 9g
Cashew nuts, dry roasted 22g
Hazelnuts (3oz) 5g
Peanuts, roasted (3oz) 10g
Pecans, dry roasted (1oz) 6g
Pistachio nuts, dry roasted 16g
Walnuts 8g

Cashews, walnuts, almonds are all fine...just limit to 1/3 cup per serving.
P

[Praetorian]

How much of the carb amount is fiber? Keep in mind you want to be getting adequate EFAs.



From what I understand the stomach doesn't actually shrink and expand. It is elastic and has a set size. It responds to the size of meal and how much of a stretch occurs which signals the brain indicating satiation. Intuitively that would mean 5 meals a day are more likely to stretch the stomach further and leave you feeling fuller.

With deli meats it is trusting the store like anything else you buy there. It comes with a label.

Ill make this simple...for BB dieting deli meats are SHIT! (ie lips and assholes) Preservatives, nitrites, saturated fat...just plain garbage...there is no room for them in BB.
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[trykillthis]

Good to here you made it over the bubble. Test shouldn't be an issue as its made from cholesterol in your body.

I think this is the only way I will diet in the future. Lock it down and get it off as soon as possible. Take pictures. Its nice to be able to look back and see where you came from.

[kloan]

Yup, taking pics with my crappy webcam and iPhone. I'll post results when I'm done.

Praetorian, thanks for clearing up which nuts are ok.

I've got some walnut oil on order too.

[5151]

Deli meats are the cheapest sources of protein and full of nitrites....not good!! ^ meals to keep a good steady supply of amino acids to the body to preserve muscle while burning fat as fuel.
P

I'll give you the deli meats though I think they are more than acceptable in a pinch. Though your saturated fat arguement is weak. Unfortunately health and bodybuilding don't always walk hand in hand:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3550-9. Epub 2005 Mar 1. Links

Comment in:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3802; author reply 3802.

Low-fat high-fiber diet decreased serum and urine androgens in men.

Department of Medicine and Pediatrics and the General Clinical Research Center, Harbor-University of California at Los Angeles Medical Center and Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute, Torrance, California 90509, USA. wang@labiomed.org

To validate our hypothesis that reduction in dietary fat may result in changes in androgen metabolism, 39 middle-aged, white, healthy men (50-60 yr of age) were studied while they were consuming their usual high-fat, low-fiber diet and after 8 wk modulation to an isocaloric low-fat, high-fiber diet. Mean body weight decreased by 1 kg, whereas total caloric intake, energy expenditure, and activity index were not changed. After diet modulation, mean serum testosterone (T) concentration fell (P < 0.0001), accompanied by small but significant decreases in serum free T (P = 0.0045), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (P = 0.0053), and adrenal androgens (androstendione, P = 0.0135; dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, P = 0.0011). Serum estradiol and SHBG showed smaller decreases. Parallel decreases in urinary excretion of some testicular and adrenal androgens were demonstrated. Metabolic clearance rates of T were not changed, and production rates for T showed a downward trend while on low-fat diet modulation. We conclude that reduction in dietary fat intake (and increase in fiber) results in 12&#37; consistent lowering of circulating androgen levels without changing the clearance.

The whole 6 meals to keep a steady supply of aminos is a cool idea but do you have any proof?
Do you really think in 2 hours you have digested an liberated all the aminos in a piece of steak?


Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people‘s habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a ’nibbling‘ meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship. However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies. We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure. Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.
An overview of the way your hypothalmus works

Let's look at basic pathways:

[1] Multiple small feedings q 2-3 hours ---> gastroneuronal communication senses consistent nutrient flow ---> increased GI transit to accomodate; allowance for greater metabolic efficiency

[2] Few feedings say q 6-8 hours (prototypical 3 square meals per day) ---> gastroneuronal communication senses pause in nutrient flow ---> decreased GI transit (slow progression through GI tract to allow for greater surface area contact with particulate manner for as best an absorption it can be offered

[kloan]

Just added Leans+ & Abs+ to my diet.... sweatin like a mutha..... 200mg caffeine, only take on workout days (3x week).

[gsxr750]

You should start a progress thread Kloan and keep us updated :)

[kloan]

k.. maybe i'll start a log

[deletedandgone]

I am basically running the low carb diet:
meal 1: 5g carbs
meal2,3,4 : 20g
meal 5: 0g
sometimes a whey shake in between some meals, if hungry.

So that's 65g of carbs a day, mostly from white rice, 5g are from ketchup. The rest are protein sources, apart from eggs everything is meat.

Is this considered ketogenic? Or just a low-carb diet?

[baza]

Some may be able to get into ketosis at 65g. You'd have to see for yourself. I'd say most probably wouldn't.

[Thorgrim]

I would either drop it under 50g or bump it up to 125-150g. Thats assuming you are an average sized man. The main idea with a regular low carb diet is that you don't spike your blood sugar and insulin up which shouldn't happen if you split the carbs up into 5-6 meals. At 65 you are sort of in a bad zone where you don't get the benefit of ketones or carbs.

[natenator]

I would either drop it under 50g or bump it up to 125-150g. Thats assuming you are an average sized man. The main idea with a regular low carb diet is that you don't spike your blood sugar and insulin up which shouldn't happen if you split the carbs up into 5-6 meals. At 65 you are sort of in a bad zone where you don't get the benefit of ketones or carbs.
umm do you want to rethink what you just wrote?

[Praetorian]

I'll give you the deli meats though I think they are more than acceptable in a pinch. Though your saturated fat arguement is weak. Unfortunately health and bodybuilding don't always walk hand in hand:


The whole 6 meals to keep a steady supply of aminos is a cool idea but do you have any proof?
Do you really think in 2 hours you have digested an liberated all the aminos in a piece of steak?


An overview of the way your hypothalmus works

Nothing is acceptable in a pinch if you are dieting for a contest...its called being organized...if you accept shitty substitutes then you will also accept lack of success.
Ill use my experience and clients over 14 years as proof...your studies lack validity without real world evidence.
P

[Praetorian]

I am basically running the low carb diet:
meal 1: 5g carbs
meal2,3,4 : 20g
meal 5: 0g
sometimes a whey shake in between some meals, if hungry.

So that's 65g of carbs a day, mostly from white rice, 5g are from ketchup. The rest are protein sources, apart from eggs everything is meat.

Is this considered ketogenic? Or just a low-carb diet?

White rice, ketchup?? If you are going to run low carb at least use low glycemic foods...a shake if u are hungry lol ....youve never dieted before have you?
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[deletedandgone]

youve never dieted before have you?
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lol, no. Yeah, I'll have to start with lower GI foods. Brown rice at least. I'm also adding 20 mins of cardio after workouts and a cardio day... ok, I'll have to write up this diet and training routine that I have and post it up, otherwise I'll end up wasting people's time doing this back and forth.

[Thorgrim]

umm do you want to rethink what you just wrote?

What exactly is wrong with that advice? 65g a day is likey too much to be in ketosis but it is still really low carb and would leave most people feeling like crap all day. He should either drop the carbs and get into ketosis or bump them up a bit so he has energy to train and isn't dragging ass all day.

Seems like a lot of people on this forum like to disagree but don't like to explain their reasoning. If I'm wrong on this I'll admit it but you are going to have to do more then just say I'm wrong to convince me.

[natenator]

What exactly is wrong with that advice? 65g a day is likey too much to be in ketosis but it is still really low carb and would leave most people feeling like crap all day. He should either drop the carbs and get into ketosis or bump them up a bit so he has energy to train and isn't dragging ass all day.

Seems like a lot of people on this forum like to disagree but don't like to explain their reasoning. If I'm wrong on this I'll admit it but you are going to have to do more then just say I'm wrong to convince me.
I didn't say you are wrong. I asked if you wanted to rethink it.

Low carb and keto diet really isn't the same thing. Keto diet - protein and fat with trace carbs coming from food sources - not the addition of carbs specifically.

Carbs unless trace are not part of a keto diet unless you are taking about a refeed meal (palumbo) or refeed day (CKD).

That's why I asked if you wanted to rethink what you just wrote. I thought you might have been confused on the thread that you were in?

[Thorgrim]

OK that makes sense. Of course I know the difference, I was just answering
prokyon's question specifically and not really addressing the rest of the thread. Maybe I should have been more clear.

Sorry if i seem snippy, I'm a bit over tired right now.

[natenator]

OK that makes sense. Of course I know the difference, I was just answering
prokyon's question specifically and not really addressing the rest of the thread. Maybe I should have been more clear.

Sorry if i seem snippy, I'm a bit over tired right now.
all good my man! cheers :)

[deletedandgone]

I'll try going below 50g of carbs first. Last time I tried that, on day 3 I lost the ability to think, literally. From what I understand the brain has to switch from using glucose to using ketones as an energy source (it actually functions better on ketones). I think if I increase the amount of meats that I consume, and 5-6 meals, then I should be able to break past the 3-day barrier. So I would go from 5-6 oz of meat per meal to 7 oz. And plenty of fish oil and metamucil.

[Praetorian]

I'll try going below 50g of carbs first. Last time I tried that, on day 3 I lost the ability to think, literally. From what I understand the brain has to switch from using glucose to using ketones as an energy source (it actually functions better on ketones). I think if I increase the amount of meats that I consume, and 5-6 meals, then I should be able to break past the 3-day barrier. So I would go from 5-6 oz of meat per meal to 7 oz. And plenty of fish oil and metamucil.

It takes 72 hours to get into ketosis...which means you wouldnt be in it until the end of day three...youll need 50g trace carbs daily in order to train...going below that will cause issues.
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[deletedandgone]

So I tried going ketogenic by bumping up the amount of meats to 7 oz per meal and after 4 days the ketosticks showed nothing. Which means that I got too much trace carbs probably. I'll just stick to low carb (120 g of carbs plus trace carbs) and cardio for now, when I get more free time I'll try going ketogenic again. Basically I have nothing to contribute to this thread so I'll shut up now.

[ta-kid]

Well i have read this whole thread.Took me almost an hour.Had to get up and eat some carbs.LOL
Anyways I am going to try the Ketois Diet after the holidays.I am already doing the low carb and watching my calories at the moment,something I never did over my 30 years of training.At 53 my metabolism is slowing down and the carbs are putting the fat on my waist.
But I do have a question.I was going to use MCT oil as a pre supplement for my workouts like I use to do cutting up.Is MCT oil ok to use on Ketois diet.ITS a Fat!