Possible fat burning combo

[kloan]

How does this look for a fat burning combo?
Anyone know a one-stop shop that sells everything in the list?

BREAKFAST
Caffeine Anhydrous 200mg
Green Tea Extract (standardized) 500mg
Forskolin 20-50mg
Carnitine 1-3grms
Calcium 1000mg
Selenium 200mcg
CLA 2-3grms
Fish Oil 1-2grms

PRE WORKOUT OR OFF DAYS WITH LUNCH
Caffeine Anhydrous 200mg
Green Tea Extract (standardized) 500mg
Forskolin 20-50mg
Carnitine 1-3grms
CLA 2-3grms
Fish Oil 1-2grms

DINNER
Forskolin 20-50mg
Carnitine 1-3grms
CLA 2-3grms
Fish Oil 1-2grms

BEFORE BED
Zinc 30mg

...

[big_luse]

For what its worth I really think your overcomplicating the shit out of things if you want to individually buy all that stuff. The results these supplements will bring could probably be accomplished with modest improvements in your current diet and cardio. Fish oil and a caffeine based otc fat burner is probably all you should need.

Or you could be a real man and start tossing back the DNP like its your day job - kidding.

[Rhinobolt10]

I don't know what half the stuff on there is, or what it's supposed to do.

[tyler_durden]

There's a health food store on Charles St. W. just around the corner from Popeyes.
They should have everything.

[vazsek]

thats an impressive list. the caffiene and green tea are good and calcium and fish oil are never a bad thing.

i think the benefits of CLA are minimal though.

i just use fish oil, an ECA stack and cardio and a carb reduced diet.

[kloan]

Just came back from the Vitamin Shoppe.. was that the store you were thinking of td?

They had most items, but were missing a couple key supps.

I got caffeine, calcium (with magnesium), selenium, fish oil and zinc. From what I've read, the forskolin is really good, helps with the thyroid I believe, which I would benefit from, so I'm going to try to find it elsewhere. I'm also going to try to find green tea extract. They had it, but it was only 400mg and for the price it wasn't worth it. What I got ended up costing around $80.

I decided to skip the carnitine because it was bloody expensive. $77 for a bottle that would last a month tops. Not worth it.

So once I get the forskolin and green tea, I think I'll be working with an effective stack. I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to start taking what I have though.

I opted out of the classic ECA stack because I don't respond well to ephedrine, and I'm not keen on taking aspirin every day.

I've got a question though regarding the effectiveness of doing this. Is it still possible to burn fat without going into a caloric deficit? I'm hoping I can start to shed some fat, but I want to do it so that I don't loose any LMM, if that's possible.

[Thechamp]

Has anyone heard of or used burner max?

[5151]

I wouldn't bank on caffeine doing anything for bodycomp however if you're in a calorie deficit the wake up may be inviting and I sure can't argue with a cup of joe in the morning. 400mcg of selenium is way too much to be messing with. I wouldn't take more than 200mcg. Selenium is a bitch in the sense that the level it is beneficial at is quite close to the level it is dangerous at especially in the athlete. I'm amazed a store in Canada is allowed to sell carnitine, we are not allowed to import it in a supplement. I also can't believe that calcium/magnesium supplements exist. Calcium will bully magnesium I would supplement the two separately or in amino chelate form.

[kloan]

Thanks for the post.

It's always good to know if there are potentially harmful doses in things I'm taking. I got these supps from a post on the anabolic reviews forum. Sorta mix n match.

The selenium I have is 200mcg, so one of those a day is safe to take? What happens if I take too much?

Also, what do you mean by calcium will bully magnesium? They only had calcium with magnesium, I wanted calcium only but there weren't any.

You say caffeine won't do much but provide a boost in energy.. how about if it's combined with green tea extract, same thing? Cuz I don't fare well with caffeine anyway, I hate the edginess I feel.. but everything I read always suggests caffeine in a fat burning stack.. so that's why I went with it.

I still really want to pick up the forskolin. Everything I've read about it indicates that it could be very beneficial for me to take.

[5151]

Thanks for the post.

It's always good to know if there are potentially harmful doses in things I'm taking. I got these supps from a post on the anabolic reviews forum. Sorta mix n match.

The selenium I have is 200mcg, so one of those a day is safe to take? What happens if I take too much?

Also, what do you mean by calcium will bully magnesium? They only had calcium with magnesium, I wanted calcium only but there weren't any.

You say caffeine won't do much but provide a boost in energy.. how about if it's combined with green tea extract, same thing? Cuz I don't fare well with caffeine anyway, I hate the edginess I feel.. but everything I read always suggests caffeine in a fat burning stack.. so that's why I went with it.

I still really want to pick up the forskolin. Everything I've read about it indicates that it could be very beneficial for me to take.

200mcg is about as high as I would dose, maybe even half a cap if possible. To avoid toxicity try a 5on2 off pattern or 3on1 off pattern. Calcium taken with magnesium will essentially mean the magnesium isn't used.
The theory for caffeine just never panned out from what I can tell:

J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Nov;20(4):751-5.

Effects of eight weeks of caffeine supplementation and endurance training on aerobic fitness and body composition.

Malek MH, Housh TJ, Coburn JW, Beck TW, Schmidt RJ, Housh DJ, Johnson GO.
University of Nebraska-Lincoln Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Nutrition and Health Sciences, Lincoln, NE 68583, USA. mmalek@unlserve.unl.edu

The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of daily administration of a supplement that contained caffeine in conjunction with 8 weeks of aerobic training on VO(2)peak, time to running exhaustion at 90% VO(2)peak, body weight, and body composition. Thirty-six college students (14 men and 22 women; mean +/- SD, age 22.4 +/- 2.9 years) volunteered for this investigation and were randomized into either a placebo (n = 18 ) or supplement group (n = 18 ). The subjects ingested 1 dose (3 pills = 201 mg of caffeine) of the placebo or supplement per day during the study period. In addition, the subjects performed treadmill running for 45 minutes at 75% of the heart rate at VO(2)peak, three times per week for 8 weeks. All subjects were tested pretraining and posttraining for VO(2)peak, time to running exhaustion (TRE) at 90% VO(2)peak, body weight (BW), percentage body fat (%FAT), fat weight (FW), and fat-free weight (FFW). The results indicated that there were equivalent training-induced increases (p < 0.05) in VO(2)peak and TRE for the supplement and placebo groups, but no changes (p > 0.05) in BW, %FAT, FW, or FFW for either group. These findings indicated that chronic use of the caffeine-containing supplement in the present study, in conjunction with aerobic training, provided no ergogenic effects as measured by VO(2)peak and TRE, and the supplement was of no benefit for altering body weight or body composition.

PMID: 17149989

Lyle Mcdonald wrote this fairly thorough review:

Greenberg JA et. al. Coffee, diabetes, and weight control. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Oct;84(4):682-93. Links

Several prospective epidemiologic studies over the past 4 y concluded that ingestion of caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee can reduce the risk of diabetes. This finding is at odds with the results of trials in humans showing that glucose tolerance is reduced shortly after ingestion of caffeine or caffeinated coffee and suggesting that coffee consumption could increase the risk of diabetes. This review discusses epidemiologic and laboratory studies of the effects of coffee and its constituents, with a focus on diabetes risk. Weight loss may be an explanatory factor, because one prospective epidemiologic study found that consumption of coffee was followed by lower diabetes risk but only in participants who had lost weight. A second such study found that both caffeine and coffee intakes were modestly and inversely associated with weight gain. It is possible that caffeine and other constituents of coffee, such as chlorogenic acid and quinides, are involved in causing weight loss. Caffeine and caffeinated coffee have been shown to acutely increase blood pressure and thereby to pose a health threat to persons with cardiovascular disease risk. One short-term study found that ground decaffeinated coffee did not increase blood pressure. Decaffeinated coffee, therefore, may be the type of coffee that can safely help persons decrease diabetes risk. However, the ability of decaffeinated coffee to achieve these effects is based on a limited number of studies, and the underlying biological mechanisms have yet to be elucidated.

My comments: This was a full scale review looking at the effects of coffee and caffeine (and please note that there may be differences) on both diabetes and bodyweight.

I bring this up because a lot of people have a fairly negative opinion about caffeine. It's been claimed that caffeine raises insulin, causes insulin resistance and deteriorates blood glucose control.

And there is some truth to this, at least if you're looking at high doses of caffeine right before a meal. Typically doses of 5 mg/kg are given which is 500 mg of caffeine for a 100kg (220 lb) person. Contrast this to a typical soda or cup of coffee which might have 60-100 mg of caffeine. Of coure, if you drink the whole pot, to the tune of 8 cups of coffee, then you might be getting close to the doses used in the studies.

At the same time, as this paper mentions above, epidemiological studies suggest that regular caffeine/coffee intake may actually be beneficial in terms of limiting the incidence of diabetes and may play a role in weight loss.

So clearly it's a bit more complicated than it looks and this paper set out to uncomplicate things.

The first data set the review looked at was epidemiological data. Now, I'm no fan of epidemiology in general, there can be a lot of confounding factors when you're trying to determine what causes what. At best, that kind of data gives a starting point and some possible correlational data to do direct work; at worst it's useless.

In any event, looking at 20 studies on the topic, they found that 17 of the 20 showed a beneficial effect of habitual coffee/caffeine intake on diabetes and glucose metabolism, 3 found no effect and none showed a negative effect. Four of the studies suggested that non-caffeine components of coffee were involved (that is, pure caffeine and coffee per se may have different effects) and four studies found an effect of decaf coffee (suggesting that non-caffeine components are playing a role here). One study suggested that the impact of coffee was due to an effect on bodyweight (weight loss) which was the next topic of the paper.

Looking first at rat data, the paper examines data showing that caffeine can reduce bodyweight, fat pad weight and even fat cell number. However, humans aren't rats and human data on this topic is mixed at best. One human study found no impact of caffeine on weight loss but it may be that coffee and other non-caffeine components explains the epidemiological data.

Next up, the paper looked at the impact of caffeine on thermogenesis (calorie burning) and lipolysis (fat mobilization). It comments that a habitual caffeine of 600 mg/day (~6 strong cups of coffee) could lead to an extra caloric expenditure of 100 cal/day (equivalent to walking about 1 mile for a 150 lb person). This effect also occurs with ground and instant coffee, but not decaf so the effect is probably mediated via the caffeine itself. Do note that the body can develop tolerance to these effects so any effect might not be very long lasting.

Related to this, caffeine has also been shown to increase lipolysis (fat mobilization) and fat oxidation and both caffeine and coffee have this effect; decaf does not. Again, the effect is most likely related to the caffeine content per se. Interestingly, both the impact on lipolysis and fat oxidation is more pronounced in non-obese than obese individuals; leaner individuals, probably due to a greater sensitivity to lipolytic stimuli, get a larger effect.

The paper also mentions that caffeine may increase energy expenditure. Doses of 3-30 mg/kg in rats increase spontaneous activity and this type of activity (called NEAT or non-exercise activity thermogenesis in humans) can amount to a fairly considerable energy expenditure. Basically, caffeine may help with weight loss by making you move around more. Again, decaf does not have this effect.

Additionally, a very well known effect of caffeine is improved exercise performance. Caffeine pre workout decreases fatigue, causes more fat to be used (sparing glycogen) and has a host of other effects. By allowing exercisers to work harder, caloric expenditure can be increased.

The next topic discussed has to do with the direct impact of caffeine/coffee on insulin and blood glucose tolerance with a majority of short-term studies showing a negative impact of coffee/caffeine on glucose tolerance when given right before a carbohydrate containing meal. Note that caffeine was not found to raise insulin or blood glucose when not given with a carbohydrate meal; the fear of caffeine on low-carb diets (it's often claimed that caffeine will raise insulin and should be avoided) appears to be unfounded. However, this data is at odds with the epidemiological data suggesting that chronic caffeine/coffee intake decreases diabetes risk.

Data comparing the effects of decaf to caffeinated coffee suggests a possible explanation; decaf coffee tends to lower blood glucose, suggesting the presence of non-caffeine compounds in coffee that may beneficially impact on blood glucose levels.

Note also that animal research suggests a tolerance to any impact of caffeine on blood glucose levels although this has not been studied in humans. However, humans are known to develop a tolerance to the stimulant, thermogenic and other effects of caffeine, it may be that chronic intake of caffeine has a very different effect on blood glucose levels that studies looking at single dose intakes.

Mechanistically, caffeine probably impacts on blood glucose tolerance by raising blood fatty acids and catecholamine levels, both of which impair skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity.

Additionally, the potential impact of coffee/caffeine on fullness was noted but this has not been well researched in humans, some studies indicate higher satiety in folks using coffee/caffeine habitually.

Next the paper delved into other potential health effects. Acutely, caffeine/coffee can raise blood pressure a bit but the body develops partial tolerance rapidly. High caffeine intakes have been found, in animal studies, to cause problems with pregnancy; as well, it may potentiate the negative effects of alcohol and tobacco in this regards. Intakes of >3 cups/day of coffee can decrease fetal birth weight.

Additionally, caffeine withdrawal can cause headaches, irritability, anxiety, depression, drowsiness and fatigue. Folks wanting to reduce their caffeine/coffee intake (for whatever reason) should do so gradually to avoid problems.

High doses of caffeine can also contribute to the risk of kidney stones in elderly individuals and could cause problems with osteoporosis; this is mainly seen with daily calcium intake is low to begin with.

Early research suggested a link between coffee and an elevation of blood lipids but this turns out to only hold for boiled coffee, not brewed.

Finally, the paper discussed the issue of non-caffeine compounds in coffee that might have additional effects on the body. One (I'll spare you the name) has been shown to decrease glucose uptake from the intestine, this might offset negative potential effects of caffeine on blood glucose levels (caffeine alone accelerates glucose uptake from the gut).

Another compound (called a quinide) was shown to enhance glucose uptake and insulin sensitivity in rats, and both the high antioxidant content of coffee along with the magnesium intake may improve insulin sensitivity in the long-term; this might explain the discrepancy in the short-term and epidemiological data.

More research into the non-caffeine components of coffee still needs to be done.

Whew, ok, that was a long one and I was wordy even for me. What's the take home in this? Caffeine/coffee intake appears to have different effects when looked at in the short and long term. In the short-term, caffeine can impact positively on a number of factors (such as delaying fatigue during exercise, increasing lipolysis, and increasing fat oxidation and caloric expenditure) but negatively on others (decreased glucose tolerance/increased insulin response, slight increase in blood pressure). However, longer term studies suggest that habitual caffeine/coffee intake is, overall, beneficial: it decreases the risk of diabetes and may contribute to preventing weight gain Tangentially, of course, any benefit of coffee/caffeine itself is going to be more than outweighed if you fill it up with sugar, cream and other high calorie goodies.

Whether this is due to the body developing tolerance to the short-term effects (wrt: caffeine) or to the presence of non-caffeine compounds in coffee that have additional benefits still awaits further research.

If caffeine bothers you I would just drop it. I don't think it is necessary or really that beneficial for weightloss. I take it because I enjoy the boosts and there is something inherently academic about a cup of black coffee and a thick text book.

[5151]

Also never tried forskolin or looked into it much but it seems to be getting more popular.

[kloan]

Thanks man, informative.

At least the caffeine was the cheapest of the bunch. I'll continue to take it before workouts because it helps with that at least.. otherwise I get too strung out, and my adrenals take a beating from too much caffeine. I'll drop it altogether when I pick up a tub of NO Shotgun since that has caffeine in it.

I can't really half cap the selenium, so I'll stick to the 200mcg/day and keep an eye out for any negative sides.

[5151]

Thanks man, informative.

At least the caffeine was the cheapest of the bunch. I'll continue to take it before workouts because it helps with that at least.. otherwise I get too strung out, and my adrenals take a beating from too much caffeine. I'll drop it altogether when I pick up a tub of NO Shotgun since that has caffeine in it.

I can't really half cap the selenium, so I'll stick to the 200mcg/day and keep an eye out for any negative sides.

Caffeine is cheap and I love it. I would honestly probably stick with caffeine pills over NO Shotgun unless they changed the formula as I have a beef with the BAEE content(check my "Sifting Through the Shit" thread for more info on that). 200mcg should be ok, but I would still recommend taking a couple days a week off from it is a good idea as would be with any fat soluble vitamins you are taking.

[kloan]

Ok, will do.

I was interested in the Shotgun because it was recommended to me and people seem to really like it. I like having a creatine drink before my workouts, so that was suggested as an alternative to Krush.

What are considered fat soluble vitamins?

[5151]

just type in the vitamin you want to know into wikipedia or some other source and it will tell you.

[kloan]

okey doke.. thanks man

[BAM]

I'd drop the 50mg of foreskin.

[kloan]

hahaha.... it's a funny name for sure.. i felt retarded asking for it in the health store.

[muscleshark]

Or you could be a real man and start tossing back the DNP like its your day job - kidding.

I actually trained with a guy a coupla years back who was a big advocate for that shit and was on it the few times I was in the gym with him. He literally radiated heat off of him to a point where it made you uncomfortable to be next to him. Imagine raising you body's thermogenic rate by 50 ****ing %?

[kloan]

I read up on that stuff. What it is, what's involved preparing it and what you have to do when you're on it.

I think it's retarded people actually use that disgusting and dangerous shit.

[fourarms]

I just got some Coleus Forskholli (20% forskolin) from Bulk Nutrition.com and it came through customs no problem. Haven't tried it yet though. I'm just finishing up four weeks of ECY, green tea extract, and carnitine and I'm happy with the results.

[kloan]

Carnitine huh.. Was it expensive? I couldn't find anything reasonably priced...

[fourarms]

Last time I was in the states I stopped at Walgreens and picked up a bunch of Walgreens Finest L-Carnitine 500mg caps. They're cheap down there, $15/60 caps and often on sale 2 for one. In Canada its available on a few of the online stores but its ridiculously expensive and I don't think its worth it. I can't honestly tell how much the carnitine helps, because I've never used it solo. I'd have to say it doesn't live up to the hype I've seen on some sites, its definitely not a "magic bullet".

[kloan]

Yeah, that's the feeling I had... not worth the price. If it was cheap, why not.. but at the prices up here, not worth it.

Let me know how that forskolin product works for you.

[fourarms]

will do

[L3]

forskoli worked very well for me, kept me very lean even with a sub par diet... carnitine was a waste of $$$

[kloan]

where'd you get it? i still can't find it locally.. think i might just order it online.

[fourarms]

Passing through customs takes quite a while lately, expect as much as a 3 wk wait.

[kloan]

it's a legal product... man i hate customs.

i'd much prefer to find it locally... it's the last thing missing in my list..