Creatine Question

[Rick519]

I just bought this bottle of creatine ethyl ester,i'm taking half a tea spoon,along with one table spoon of glutamine peptides,and one full scoop of whey.

I was just wondering,is there something that i should add with the creatine ethyl ester?

Or am i getting enough with what i'm taking now?

[ironwill]

ummm, id add 1/2 gram of test that was derived from the testicles of a brahma bull, or those blue bulls that have the myostatin gene mutation thingy....
that will give you a bigger bang for your buck...

[RagingRandy]

Insulin aids in the effectiveness of creatine. For me, I have a couple pieces of toast and jam with my shake. This adds some glucose which will help raise your insulin levels. Also, I need to eat something or I get a tummy ache. However, I use creatine mono.

[The Terminator]

CEE was debunked years ago.


1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

There were also some studies that had been done back in the 40's that showed that it had no effect after it was originally discovered. It's only recently resurfaced. I bought a 2kg thing of CEE from BN a couple years ago, used it and nothing. Always responded to CM, but CEE was ineffective. I looked into it and found the info showing it was useless.

Matt

[L3]

creatine gave me ED :(

[5151]

CEE was debunked years ago.



There were also some studies that had been done back in the 40's that showed that it had no effect after it was originally discovered. It's only recently resurfaced. I bought a 2kg thing of CEE from BN a couple years ago, used it and nothing. Always responded to CM, but CEE was ineffective. I looked into it and found the info showing it was useless.

Matt

while that study was interesting and I am a supporter of CM over CEE any day, that study far from debunks CEE. First of all the pH of the stomach doesn't drop below 2. Secondly I'm not sure how long creatine spends in the stomach before uptake (I'm looking for a source now) but suspiciously the only note the differences at the 30 and 120 min mark in the abstract despite the fact they also measured it at the 5 min mark as well. I think Patrick Arnold commented on this as well when the study came out I'll see if I can find his comments.

[The Terminator]

I'd be interested to see as well. To the best of my knowledge (and now I cannot find my sources on it) it was fully debunked. But, I'll have to do some digging. Let's see what you and I can find and see if we can get this one nailed down.

Matt

[5151]

while that study was interesting and I am a supporter of CM over CEE any day, that study far from debunks CEE. First of all the pH of the stomach doesn't drop below 2. Secondly I'm not sure how long creatine spends in the stomach before uptake (I'm looking for a source now) but suspiciously the only note the differences at the 30 and 120 min mark in the abstract despite the fact they also measured it at the 5 min mark as well. I think Patrick Arnold commented on this as well when the study came out I'll see if I can find his comments.

meh, can't find the quote I was looking for but regardless there really is no reason to use any other type of creatine but CrM with the amount of research backing it and how the research is absent for all other types of creatine. However until the research is done in vivo to say it has been debunked isn't quite fair. I would say it is just as effective at a higher cost.

[5151]

I'd be interested to see as well. To the best of my knowledge (and now I cannot find my sources on it) it was fully debunked. But, I'll have to do some digging. Let's see what you and I can find and see if we can get this one nailed down.

Matt

pretty much all the info you could ask for with some great back and forth from the industries top minds in here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3209281

[faller]

creatine gave me ED :(

Seriously?? because i think the same thing happened to me!

[5151]

creatine gave me ED :(

sure she just wasn't a real ugo?

[L3]

faller - no, not seriously

5151 - its all the same when the lights are off

[Rick519]

creatine gave me ED


Dang,are you serious?

so then i should just throw the CEE in the garbage,and buy some CM?

[muscleshark]

Dang,are you serious?

so then i should just throw the CEE in the garbage,and buy some CM?

Yes, CEE, almost always turns to creatinine as soon as it reaches the digestive tract. It doesn't work. I found kre-alklyn worked well for me, having the creatine ph balanced to match your stomach for maximum absorption makes sense, and it increased my strength enough to notice, not just a placebo effect. But you can always rely on good ole monohydrate, as long as you can get it to absorb, and everybody has a method to the madness.

[Rick519]

Well,i went and bought the creatine monohydrate this morning,it says that i should take four teaspoons initally,and then take two teaspoons per day.

Do i really need to take the four teaspoons at first to get it into my system,as a loading up phase??

[L3]

Well,i went and bought the creatine monohydrate this morning,it says that i should take four teaspoons initally,and then take two teaspoons per day.

Do i really need to take the four teaspoons at first to get it into my system,as a loading up phase??

lots of debate on this... in the end you will see the same results...loading 4x/day MAY give you those results sooner...but in the end you just end up pissing more of it out due to the unfavorable absorbtion rate...

i personally dont load, nor do i cycle off


EDIT:

no creatine didnt really give me ED... it has no effect on your wee wee....it was a joke pertaining to an earlier thread....

[buffdaddy]

lots of debate on this... in the end you will see the same results...loading 4x/day MAY give you those results sooner...but in the end you just end up pissing more of it out due to the unfavorable absorbtion rate...

i personally dont load, nor do i cycle off


EDIT:

no creatine didnt really give me ED... it has no effect on your wee wee....it was a joke pertaining to an earlier thread....


Same, i don't load up at the front or cycle off creatine either. I only stop taking it when on gear.

[Ritch]

faller - no, not seriously

5151 - its all the same when the lights are off

Yeah, and were all pink inside!

[Rick519]

I was just wondering,is kre-alklyn available here in canada,or would i have to get it shipped in?

I also called the head office of Nutrex,and they told me that they could ship me a bottle of Lipo 6 X,i asked him if i should worry about canadian immigration taking my shipment,he told me that there's nothing to worry about.

Has anyone else here placed an order,and if you did,was it stopped at the border?

[5151]

I was just wondering,is kre-alklyn available here in canada,or would i have to get it shipped in?

I also called the head office of Nutrex,and they told me that they could ship me a bottle of Lipo 6 X,i asked him if i should worry about canadian immigration taking my shipment,he told me that there's nothing to worry about.

Has anyone else here placed an order,and if you did,was it stopped at the border?

you love commas, even more so than me, kre-alkalyn is readily available in Canada, in my opinion(which is always right) it is overpriced, the same results would be obtained through a slightly higher dose of monohydrate, Lipo6 is sold on Canadian sites, so i can't imagine any issues getting it in.

[Rick519]

LOL,well i know that it's sold here in canada,but i keep hearing about the american version,and the canadian version,and that the canadian version doesn't work.

So i was just wondering if anyone had purchased Lipo 6 X from Nutrex directly because the american version has yohimbe.

[5151]

LOL,well i know that it's sold here in canada,but i keep hearing about the american version,and the canadian version,and that the canadian version doesn't work.

So i was just wondering if anyone had purchased Lipo 6 X from Nutrex directly because the american version has yohimbe.

it technically shouldnt be allowed across the border but it's a crapshoot as to whether or not it will make it. probably a pretty good chance it will. I would question why not just use the EC stack as it's readily available here.

[Rick519]

The ECA Stack sounds interesting,but do you know what the price is,and who should i talk to about getting it?

And what product would you recommend?

[Amoral]

The ECA Stack sounds interesting,but do you know what the price is,and who should i talk to about getting it?

And what product would you recommend?

Check out our sponsors man, they should carry ephedrine and caffiene separately. Wikipedia has an article on the ECA stack, and the boards are full of info on it. A common dose is three doses at 24mg ephedrine and 200mg caffiene three times a day. Some choose to substitue the aspirin for yohimbine hcl as there's conflicting opinions on whether the aspirin works or not. Yohimbine HCL can also be found through the board sponsors.

Don't buy a premade formula - it's wayyyy cheaper to buy everything separately. Otherwise you're just paying for a name brotha

[kloan]

The ECA Stack sounds interesting,but do you know what the price is,and who should i talk to about getting it?

And what product would you recommend?

Any health or supplements shop has caffeine and ephedrine pills.

[Rick519]

Ok,i got it,thanks everyone for the help,and advice,i appreciate it

[fourarms]

I didn't see any Yohimbine HCL on the sponsor sites, only Yohimbe extract. From what I've read on other sites there can be a big difference. For what its worth, this is what was said.

Yohimbine vs. yohimbe

"Quite a bit of confusion seems to exist about the difference between Yohimbine and yohimbe. Yohimbine is the principal alkaloid from the herb P. yohimbe. However, there are 31 other yohimbane alkaloids that can be present in herbal yohimbe preparations. Some of these have different and unknown selectivities and potencies (and thus, effects) at the adrenergic receptors (8, 9) -- in addition, these preparations vary greatly from brand to brand and even from batch to batch, as no standardization for extraction exists. In fact, a recent investigation found that most over the counter preparations have little to no actual yohimbine (10). And, even in the more potent preparations, most people find a higher degree of undesirable effects with the herb vs. pure Yohimbine (due to the afore mentioned 31 other yohimbane alkaloids that can be present)."

[Amoral]

Touche...

The "Ultimate Nutrition Yohimbe Bark Extract" has this statement listed under its ingredients...

"Each tablet contains: 800 mg of Yohimbe Bark Extract. Standardized extract containing 1% Yohimbine"

But after reading what you posted under reference [10], that kinda blows sheep dags