sources of protein

[L3]

so recently ive noticed that i get about 80% of my daily protein from whey.. 30grams whey + whatever is in the food i eat, about 6-7 times a day, so thats around 6-7 shakes a day average

for some reason my stomach cant handle chicken in any form now, and i stay away from tuna, so steak and cheese and whey are pretty much the only viable sources

i guess i could always throw in more fish...

either way, my question is, am i losing out on just being lazy with the whey?

my current diet consists of pretty much anything i can fit in my mouth, i try not to go overboard with the junk food tho, im trying to keep my weight up since i think i got pnemonia and its taking forever to clear up and its a little tough to eat enough clean cals...

[Kilburn]

i'm somewhat the same way. i try to eat meat everyday but making an oats/milk/whey shake is just so much faster and convenient. i eat probably atleast 1/2 pound of meat a day but ideally you should be eatting atleast 1 pound or more. easiest way to eat lots of meat for me is pasta with meat sauce.

[Ritch]

I do the same. Use much more whey than real food, I just get better results and it keeps the grocery bill down. Oats+whey+an apple or whatever else is just so much easier and keeps the blood sugar under control. I gotta eat meat once a day but just couldn`t handle it any more than that. Although Matt`s recipie for those ground up chicken soups do seem very good.

So legaliz3 to answer your question no I don`t think you`re loosing out on being lazy with just the whey. I often wonder how they did it back in the day without it.

Actually wanted to add that I`ll be replacing the cup of mixed vegetables I eat mostly every day for a serving of progressvie greens. It costs slightly less and is loaded beyond what you`d get in a mere cup of vegetables.

[gsxr750]

Yea i'll agree, the most important thing is that you're getting those 200+grams of protein in you a day.

I eat alot of steak and whey, as posted before I purchase eye of round roasts for $1.99/LB, trim off the fat, and get about 17 steaks for $10, bag and freeze.

[fathead]

id like to see some pics of you guys claiming that a diet of almost all whey is a good one.

whole foods are superior to whey in so many ways. DO NOT rely on whey. whey should be reserved for specific purposes. whole foods 4x a day minimum. just cause you dont like chicken or tuna doesnt mean there arent a lot of other options

turkey/100 kinds of fish/eggs/beef/bison/etc

i know there are always exceptions, some guy who claims he eats nothing but whey for contest prep etc but every serious bodybuilder will laugh at you if you tell them you eat whey 6-7x a day

[L3]

i should have been more specific.. ill have whey WITH my meals... ie, 2x swiss cheese and whole wheat bread sandwiches + protein shake per meal

[Ritch]

id like to see some pics of you guys claiming that a diet of almost all whey is a good one.

whole foods are superior to whey in so many ways. DO NOT rely on whey. whey should be reserved for specific purposes. whole foods 4x a day minimum. just cause you dont like chicken or tuna doesnt mean there arent a lot of other options

turkey/100 kinds of fish/eggs/beef/bison/etc

i know there are always exceptions, some guy who claims he eats nothing but whey for contest prep etc but every serious bodybuilder will laugh at you if you tell them you eat whey 6-7x a day

Really, and what would you exept to see?

[kloan]

Personally, I don't feel like I get enough from whey shakes alone.. even tossing in peanut butter and frozen concentrate fruit, meal replacement mix, etc.. I still gotta eat other protein sources.. but I'm getting sick of the same thing day in day out..

Eggs, chicken, fish. Don't eat red meat so finding other iron sources is tough. Eat tofu occasionally, but not a fan.

Wish I was rich.. I'd hire a personal chef.

[gordi]

I love my protein shakes, but I agree with fathead: Whole food is almost always superior. There are so many clean sources of protein, and some of them (canned tuna, eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt...) are really quick and easy to prepare. Extra lean ground beef and chicken breasts are pretty affordable if you buy in large amounts then wrap and freeze them in single portions. gsxr750's steak plan works like a charm, and I'm pretty sure that he's the guy who recommended buying whole pork tenderloins and cutting them up, too. Cheap, clean, and easy to make. Whey should be a supplement to whole foods, not a total substitute for them. Also, you run the risk of developing allergies or intolerances if you eat the same thing day in and day out for too long. I don't like to go with shakes for more than one or two meals per day, unless I have no other healthy options.

[trykillthis]

I don't see how it can be any worse. Once its digested its amino's no matter what form it was before. The only real difference would be your absorbtion rates, whey being the fastest of course. Some pro's rely on whey more than whole foods. Unless you digestion problems with milk products, I would say to carry on. I have never seen a study that has proven otherwise. If anyone has one I would love to see it.

[Kilburn]

id like to see some pics of you guys claiming that a diet of almost all whey is a good one.

whole foods are superior to whey in so many ways. DO NOT rely on whey. whey should be reserved for specific purposes. whole foods 4x a day minimum. just cause you dont like chicken or tuna doesnt mean there arent a lot of other options

turkey/100 kinds of fish/eggs/beef/bison/etc

i know there are always exceptions, some guy who claims he eats nothing but whey for contest prep etc but every serious bodybuilder will laugh at you if you tell them you eat whey 6-7x a day

i agree. i eat 4 eggs and half a pound of meat a day minimum, usually more.

i dont have any science or studies to back this up but i think lots and lots of red meat and whole food is the absolute best way to grow. it's what weve been doing for hundreds of years. kill an animal, feast on it's flesh and get swole. those neanderthals were fuking big and ripped. you should see me eat a half chicken, i like eat all the cartilage and stuff, there's nothing left at the end cept a few bones. that's how you have to do it, eat like a beast to become a beast, there's a reason vegetarians all look like pencil neck f4gs.

[Gib]

"those neanderthals were fuking big and ripped."

Says who?

[Houstonbc]

wtf? 6-7 shakes a day man you gotta eat real food to grow. shakes are meant to be a supplement to your daily food intake not the other way around. by 12pm ive already taken down 2cups eggs/egg whites, 3 chicken breasts or equivalent of fish or red meat. you gotta eat real food to grow and supplement a shake or 2 in between as snacks imo. if it works for you thats great because eating so much can be a drag, i know i wouldnt be able to put on any muscle on a diet of one meal and 6-7 shakes a day

[gordi]

"those neanderthals were fuking big and ripped."

Says who?

Says Dr. John Berardi :D

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/built1.htm

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/built2.htm

(also, these are very good articles that are full of useful information)

[fathead]

your body is a furnace and you need to put fuel into it for it to function effectively. shakes arent real food. they are processed and your body doesnt have to work very hard to break them down. i dont know about you but if i eat shakes they go right through me, whole foods not so much, and this isnt unique to me. think about what that means. your metabolism will suffer if youre not constantly putting whole food into your system.

if you hired 10 guys who train bb'ers and compared all the diets they provided for clients, you wouldnt find a lot of whey on there.... in fact i would bet a few of them wouldnt have ANY whey AT ALL, or more likely would have whey as a second alternative to eggs/meat in a meal if in a bind but not to be relied on... "meal 6: 500ml egg whites and 1 cup veg OR 2 scoops whey with 1cup veg if NEED BE but no more than 1x a week"

whey protein is a protein SUPPLEMENT, not a replacement.

2 cheese sandwiches with a shake..... good luck buddy. youre not going to be big or lean let alone both

[nisser]

THat's true. if you're making any progress with that diet its purely because of your chemists.

you don't have to sit down and eat a steak to get your protein. There's other ways:

tuna fish sandwiches, egg sandwiches, chili, whole wheat pasta with ANY meat, pork chop sandwiches etc

And where are you getting 1.99$/lb steaks? That sounds incredibly cheap. Not even beef liver is that cheap. I live on ground beef, pork chops, chicken breast as that's the cheapest meat out there at 4-5$/lb

[gsxr750]

Eye of Round Roast on sale for $1.99/LB. Just trim the fat and then cut it up into steaks :) I got like 15 of them and froze them. Here's what $11 gets you, a good 5-6 pounds of steak end up with 15-17 of them.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3700/meatij5.jpg

[Kilburn]

your body is a furnace and you need to put fuel into it for it to function effectively. shakes arent real food. they are processed and your body doesnt have to work very hard to break them down. i dont know about you but if i eat shakes they go right through me, whole foods not so much, and this isnt unique to me. think about what that means. your metabolism will suffer if youre not constantly putting whole food into your system.

if you hired 10 guys who train bb'ers and compared all the diets they provided for clients, you wouldnt find a lot of whey on there.... in fact i would bet a few of them wouldnt have ANY whey AT ALL, or more likely would have whey as a second alternative to eggs/meat in a meal if in a bind but not to be relied on... "meal 6: 500ml egg whites and 1 cup veg OR 2 scoops whey with 1cup veg if NEED BE but no more than 1x a week"

whey protein is a protein SUPPLEMENT, not a replacement.

2 cheese sandwiches with a shake..... good luck buddy. youre not going to be big or lean let alone both

well the shakes you make suck then.

my bulking shake:

2 cups whole milk
1 cup large flake oats, powdered in coffee grinder
1.5 scoops of whey

mix it up and chug. 3 of those a day and then 2-3 whole food meals and you couldnt ask for a better diet.

[fathead]

well the shakes you make suck then.

my bulking shake:

2 cups whole milk
1 cup large flake oats, powdered in coffee grinder
1.5 scoops of whey

mix it up and chug. 3 of those a day and then 2-3 whole food meals and you couldnt ask for a better diet.

um.... yes i could.

[L3]

[/U][/B]

um.... yes i could.

ok so what does your typical bulk diet day look like?

[michealJ]

The new commercial says to drink chocolate milk for protein after your work out…..
That’s all you need
HA Ha kidding

[fathead]

ok so what does your typical bulk diet day look like?

the same as my cutting diet, just more food.

chicken/beef/fish/egg+ rice/potato/sweet potato/oats + veg.... repeat x5-6

buddies shake with the oats/milk/whey isnt the end of the world and its better than most... acceptable in a pinch, but still not nearly as ideal as eating cooked oats and whole food protein

[Houstonbc]

1)500ml eggs/egg whites + 1 cup oats
2) 1.5 chicken breasts + 1 cup brown rice 1/2 cup vegetable
3) same as 2
4) 1 banana 2 scoops whey + skim milk
5) same as 2
6) pwo shake
7) snack chicken or whatever meat is left over from my other meals in a wrap

this isnt the best diet i know but its what i eat everyday right now if i ate any less i would shrink

[Kilburn]

the same as my cutting diet, just more food.

chicken/beef/fish/egg+ rice/potato/sweet potato/oats + veg.... repeat x5-6

buddies shake with the oats/milk/whey isnt the end of the world and its better than most... acceptable in a pinch, but still not nearly as ideal as eating cooked oats and whole food protein

ive taked to many people about that, the consensus is that the oats are rolled (processed already) so what difference does it make if they are boiled or not?

[fathead]

grinding them up is going to make them pass through your system faster (educated guess) meaning your body doesnt have to work as much to break them down, more importantly eating some eggs/meat is superior to the whey. also, without starting a war, i dont think milk/dairy are very good for people in general, bodybuilders in particular. if bulking, less of a big deal, but most people whether they know it or not dont process dairy properly

[5151]

grinding them up is going to make them pass through your system faster (educated guess) meaning your body doesnt have to work as much to break them down, more importantly eating some eggs/meat is superior to the whey. also, without starting a war, i dont think milk/dairy are very good for people in general, bodybuilders in particular. if bulking, less of a big deal, but most people whether they know it or not dont process dairy properly

you think grinding oats affects their caloric total? this is almost as bad as the mantra that liquid calories don't count. With the exception of the vitamins/minerals that come with meat and eggs they are in no way different than whey. Rotating whole food with shake isn't going to cause any damage. At the end of the day let's remember the things of primary importance: total caloric intake, protein intake and EFA intake.

[kloan]

I think he's sayin by grinding them up it's possible the body will digest/process it quicker and won't provide as much sustained energy as it would if the body had to break it down on it's own..

But you're saying regardless of time it takes the body to process the food, it's the same calories no matter what so it shouldn't be a factor?

[Houstonbc]

rotating a shake for whole food isnt gonna do any damage?
its not gonna do any good for building huge muscles or every bodybuilder would be having 6 shakes and 1 meal a day!

[fathead]

you think grinding oats affects their caloric total? this is almost as bad as the mantra that liquid calories don't count. With the exception of the vitamins/minerals that come with meat and eggs they are in no way different than whey. Rotating whole food with shake isn't going to cause any damage. At the end of the day let's remember the things of primary importance: total caloric intake, protein intake and EFA intake.

i didnt say it would do damage. i said it wouldn't be as effective for bodybuilding goals. ill admit that realistically, for joe schmoe who has been max benching 185 5 days a week for the last year and eats subway cause its "healthy" drinking his food wont make that big of a difference for him, however im talking about real bodybuilders (and i assume you think you are too).
Just answer me this and then it will be the end of it... and if you answer "wrong" we will just have to agree to disagree

bodybuilder 1: eats large portions of chicken or steak with rice or cooked oatmeal accompnaied by broccoli 7x a day for 5 years.

bodybuilder 2: is bodybuilder 1's twin brother. he drinks whey and blended oats with milk 7x a day for 5 years.

training is constant, calories are equal. do they look the same and perform the same at the end of this period?

and by the way 5151, not all calories are created equal!

[5151]

the clean vs unclean debate! this is something I've been thinking about for a while and have been looking for a few other educated people to argue it out with. I have to work tomorrow morning and the large turkey dinner is weighing me down (because of the tryptophan of course ;)...ah media-science at it's best) however I will return tomorrow with counterpoints. I must be a nerd, nutritional debates excite me. For now, Happy Thanksgiving all

[Houstonbc]

i didnt say it would do damage. i said it wouldn't be as effective for bodybuilding goals. ill admit that realistically, for joe schmoe who has been max benching 185 5 days a week for the last year and eats subway cause its "healthy" drinking his food wont make that big of a difference for him, however im talking about real bodybuilders (and i assume you think you are too).
Just answer me this and then it will be the end of it... and if you answer "wrong" we will just have to agree to disagree

bodybuilder 1: eats large portions of chicken or steak with rice or cooked oatmeal accompnaied by broccoli 7x a day for 5 years.

bodybuilder 2: is bodybuilder 1's twin brother. he drinks whey and blended oats with milk 7x a day for 5 years.

training is constant, calories are equal. do they look the same and perform the same at the end of this period?

and by the way 5151, not all calories are created equal!

pretty sure this is what i was trying to say...im just not as intellectually gifted as fathead...good post

[5151]

rotating a shake for whole food isnt gonna do any damage?
its not gonna do any good for building huge muscles or every bodybuilder would be having 6 shakes and 1 meal a day!

I couldn't disagree more.


I think he's sayin by grinding them up it's possible the body will digest/process it quicker and won't provide as much sustained energy as it would if the body had to break it down on it's own..

But you're saying regardless of time it takes the body to process the food, it's the same calories no matter what so it shouldn't be a factor?

you don't chew?

anyway like I said I will be back

[Houstonbc]

5151 tell me then why do we as bodybuilders even eat whole food if shakes are just as good for building muscles?
if this was true every bodybuilder would rely on shakes for the majority of their protein and it would be great because its much cheaper than buying meat too.
unfortunately thats just not the case

[AlladdinSane]

I like masticating.

[5151]

i didnt say it would do damage. i said it wouldn't be as effective for bodybuilding goals. ill admit that realistically, for joe schmoe who has been max benching 185 5 days a week for the last year and eats subway cause its "healthy" drinking his food wont make that big of a difference for him, however im talking about real bodybuilders (and i assume you think you are too).
Just answer me this and then it will be the end of it... and if you answer "wrong" we will just have to agree to disagree

bodybuilder 1: eats large portions of chicken or steak with rice or cooked oatmeal accompnaied by broccoli 7x a day for 5 years.

bodybuilder 2: is bodybuilder 1's twin brother. he drinks whey and blended oats with milk 7x a day for 5 years.

training is constant, calories are equal. do they look the same and perform the same at the end of this period?

and by the way 5151, not all calories are created equal!

What is unhealthy about Subway? your whole wheat bread is better than theirs? your lettuce better than theirs?
Both bodybuilders have failed to consume sufficient EFAs and both suffer from lower serum testosterone levels had they consumed moderate amounts of saturated fat :).
Honestly if calories and macros are controlled I doubt there would be much of difference, assuming the fellow drinking shakes simulates chewing as to release the proper enzymes for digestion (a tip for those who pound a shake solo). For rhetoric's sake when do we grow most rapidly? During that time frame our diet consists of one thing and it's liquid. hint: it comes from your mothers tits. I don't see differences between the two diets other than whey replacing meat(both options offer the EAAs sufficiently) and milk replacing broccoli which was a weird choice but whatever. Taking proper vitamin supplementation will probably offer what is offered in the broccoli which is grown in nutrient depleted soil anyway and with the milk you get dietary calcium something lacking in the first diet. This might actually be preferable as supplementing calcium can be a bitch due to it's "bully" like characteristics, unless you splurge and pay for the amino chelates which ain't cheap.
The two diets offered look like the way I ate when I started reading about muscle building and they are terrible ways to live. Both lack variety and taste.

Please understand I am NOT advocating a diet consisting of shakes only but rather offering a suggestion of a balance lifestyle focusing on the more important things first: proper caloric total, adequate protein and adequate EFAs. I really don't understand what you think your body is going to do with the exact same macros from two different sources. In the domain of body comp macro>micro nutrition will always be rule. Whey protein has many benefits itself.

When you say not all calories are created equal, I'm not sure I can fully agree unless you get more specific. Do you believe eating 50g of carbs from ice cream is different than eating 50g from oats? Sure the oats might satiate you better and offer better micronutriton however if I already had a bowl of oats in the morning and I know I can control my hunger I'll take the ice cream and there won't be a difference.

[5151]

5151 tell me then why do we as bodybuilders even eat whole food if shakes are just as good for building muscles?
if this was true every bodybuilder would rely on shakes for the majority of their protein and it would be great because its much cheaper than buying meat too.
unfortunately thats just not the case

yup that's what I said have 6 shakes a day:rollseyes:. I offered a suggestion of rotation. That allows for 3-4 meat/egg/dairy meals. I don't understand what you think will happen to the calories from shakes? where do they go if they don't contribute to overall calorie balance?

[5151]

Lol if we want to look at the real nitty gritty the extra fiber from the broccoli may have pulled the other brother down by lowering the protein count and increased fiber may be counter productive to the bodybuilder.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3550-9. Epub 2005 Mar 1. Links

Comment in:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3802; author reply 3802.

Low-fat high-fiber diet decreased serum and urine androgens in men.

* Wang C,
* Catlin DH,
* Starcevic B,
* Heber D,
* Ambler C,
* Berman N,
* Lucas G,
* Leung A,
* Schramm K,
* Lee PW,
* Hull L,
* Swerdloff RS.

Department of Medicine and Pediatrics and the General Clinical Research Center, Harbor-University of California at Los Angeles Medical Center and Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute, Torrance, California 90509, USA. wang@labiomed.org

To validate our hypothesis that reduction in dietary fat may result in changes in androgen metabolism, 39 middle-aged, white, healthy men (50-60 yr of age) were studied while they were consuming their usual high-fat, low-fiber diet and after 8 wk modulation to an isocaloric low-fat, high-fiber diet. Mean body weight decreased by 1 kg, whereas total caloric intake, energy expenditure, and activity index were not changed. After diet modulation, mean serum testosterone (T) concentration fell (P < 0.0001), accompanied by small but significant decreases in serum free T (P = 0.0045), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (P = 0.0053), and adrenal androgens (androstendione, P = 0.0135; dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, P = 0.0011). Serum estradiol and SHBG showed smaller decreases. Parallel decreases in urinary excretion of some testicular and adrenal androgens were demonstrated. Metabolic clearance rates of T were not changed, and production rates for T showed a downward trend while on low-fat diet modulation. We conclude that reduction in dietary fat intake (and increase in fiber) results in 12&#37; consistent lowering of circulating androgen levels without changing the clearance.

I hope you understand I'm not saying to eat like shit and fiber is bad. What I'm saying is what the magazines and gurus are telling you isn't necessarily based on the science. Looking at opposing view points can be beneficial.

[Ritch]

What is unhealthy about Subway? your whole wheat bread is better than theirs? your lettuce better than theirs?
Both bodybuilders have failed to consume sufficient EFAs and both suffer from lower serum testosterone levels had they consumed moderate amounts of saturated fat :).
Honestly if calories and macros are controlled I doubt there would be much of difference, assuming the fellow drinking shakes simulates chewing as to release the proper enzymes for digestion (a tip for those who pound a shake solo). For rhetoric's sake when do we grow most rapidly? During that time frame our diet consists of one thing and it's liquid. hint: it comes from your mothers tits. I don't see differences between the two diets other than whey replacing meat(both options offer the EAAs sufficiently) and milk replacing broccoli which was a weird choice but whatever. Taking proper vitamin supplementation will probably offer what is offered in the broccoli which is grown in nutrient depleted soil anyway and with the milk you get dietary calcium something lacking in the first diet. This might actually be preferable as supplementing calcium can be a bitch due to it's "bully" like characteristics, unless you splurge and pay for the amino chelates which ain't cheap.
The two diets offered look like the way I ate when I started reading about muscle building and they are terrible ways to live. Both lack variety and taste.

Please understand I am NOT advocating a diet consisting of shakes only but rather offering a suggestion of a balance lifestyle focusing on the more important things first: proper caloric total, adequate protein and adequate EFAs. I really don't understand what you think your body is going to do with the exact same macros from two different sources. In the domain of body comp macro>micro nutrition will always be rule. Whey protein has many benefits itself.

When you say not all calories are created equal, I'm not sure I can fully agree unless you get more specific. Do you believe eating 50g of carbs from ice cream is different than eating 50g from oats? Sure the oats might satiate you better and offer better micronutriton however if I already had a bowl of oats in the morning and I know I can control my hunger I'll take the ice cream and there won't be a difference.

thumbs up to that man. Actually have something I want to add to this thread, but will post it later on tonight. Busy cooking meat right now...

[5151]

thumbs up to that man. Actually have something I want to add to this thread, but will post it later on tonight. Busy cooking meat right now...

I look forward to it, I am eating some eye of the round as we speak ;)

[fathead]

your subway comment kills any credibility i would otherwise lend you lol. and yes, the meat i eat is different/superior to their junk, and bread (whole wheat or their shit) is bad for you either way.

im with you on one thing. youre saying youre not advocating a diet of all shakes, that they are just an option in the rotation, which is fine, however if youre saying they shouldnt make up all your protein content there is a reason for that, and that will transfer across the spectrum from best to worst in terms of diet.

if 3 meals plus 3 shakes a day is better than 6 shakes a day (which you appear to be saying) than you should be able to state that 6 meals a day is better than 3 meals and 3 shakes.

will following a diet of 3 meals and 3 shakes a day result in failure to make gains? no. not at all. its just not ideal. not as ideal as more whole food. and thats what this thread discussion is about.

answer this... how come when i have oats blended with whey im hungry an hour later and have to take a dump but when i eat a bowl of cooked oatmeal and scrambled egg whites im satisfied for twice as long and havent hit the can yet.

and if youre telling me eating 50g carbs from ice cream and 50 grams protein from tofu 5x a day will result in the same physique as 50g carbs from oats and 50g pro from chicken/fish/egg/beef than im not even going to respond to this!!!

[kloan]

answer this... how come when i have oats blended with whey im hungry an hour later and have to take a dump but when i eat a bowl of cooked oatmeal and scrambled egg whites im satisfied for twice as long and havent hit the can yet.


proof is in the pudding :a+

[Houstonbc]

proof is in the pudding

exactly
more mastication the better

[Ritch]

I am acutally bigger now that I use more whey than whole food. It seemed for a long time I could not get over the 205-210lbs mark. Just want to note that I don`t expect everyone to agree with what I`m going to say, just writing some observations of what happened with me. I actually only eat one meal a day now with meat. No stinking fish or eggs anymore. Most the time the one whole food meal I eat consists of 1/3 kg of chicken with 2 cups of brown rice and serving of progressive green veges. Or as I was doing this summer 2 hamburgers on the BBQ. Would like to point out that Jeff Rodriguez a natural champion recently on No Bull Radio said he usually only gets one real meal in a day. The rest being oats and whey. How do you like that Fathead! I know there`s always exeptions... But don`t you think you`re one as well eating so much whole food?

Can actually say I weigh more now 225lbs today natural at 5`11 using more shakes than I did about 7 years ago when I did about 600mg test prop and 40mg of d bol a day eating 2 steaks a day (lunch and supper) with 2-3 yolks, 3-4 whites and 200-300 grams of ground beef before bed. Then shakes in between. So I`ve kinda done the example pointed out if you took 2 people and put them... Not to that extreem but it wouldn`t be necessary. Plus with more whole food I was on gear and the results were inferior. So what do you expect me to say?

The whole food debate I kinda think is like the machines vs freeweights debate. Go with what works for you. Not to open a big can of worms here... If I were on a low cal diet there`s no question I`d favor whole foods as they keep you fuller longer. But in the case of mass, the shakes I consume are very filling, get in more quality nutrients and allow me to repeat more often. Plus it`s easier to be consistent. I think in Fathead`s case he is just so used to whole food it`s odd for him to be satisfied with a shake. There is a huge difference how the both of us eat. My hat goes off to you Mr Fathead for the dicipline to consume that much whole food. And not just eating it, preparing it. Do you do this or do you have someone else do it, just curious. But I`d be shittin` all day if I were to eat that much whole food, it just wouldn`t go down. Either way let`s keep the debate rolling on this one!

[5151]

your subway comment kills any credibility i would otherwise lend you lol. and yes, the meat i eat is different/superior to their junk, and bread (whole wheat or their shit) is bad for you either way.
Really? What is bad for me the sodium? or cause it's sold by "fast food joint." Bread is bad for you? How? what in the bread is harmful to health or body comp goals? Please understand that the amount of calories taken in daily is probably more important to overall health than where they come from. You think a 180lb person eating 2500cals a day from subway is going to be less healthy than the same person eating 6000cals from nothing but rice, chicken or whatever is claimed to be "clean" foods these days?
im with you on one thing. youre saying youre not advocating a diet of all shakes, that they are just an option in the rotation, which is fine, however if youre saying they shouldnt make up all your protein content there is a reason for that, and that will transfer across the spectrum from best to worst in terms of diet.
What I am saying is that whey protein has it's own benefits beyond cost and convenience and I welcome it's inclusion. The reason I say it shouldn't make up your protein content is because I believe there are benefits from mirconutrition that can be had however after 3 meat/egg meals I believe those nutrient requirements would be more than satisfied. I also enjoy eating meat however I am unable/unwilling to do so 6 times a day. Eating chicken 6 times a day would be just as unbeneficial as eating protein powder 6 times a day.

if 3 meals plus 3 shakes a day is better than 6 shakes a day (which you appear to be saying) than you should be able to state that 6 meals a day is better than 3 meals and 3 shakes.
For reasons stated above I thoroughly don't believe it is. i eat 6 times a day however I don't believe that to be necessary either. Are you aware studies exist showing superior body comp (including lbm) changes when eating 3 meals vs 6 meals daily? I'll post one up tonight
will following a diet of 3 meals and 3 shakes a day result in failure to make gains? no. not at all. its just not ideal. not as ideal as more whole food. and thats what this thread discussion is about.
I do believe it to be just as ideal. Again I ask you to answer what you think the body is going to do differently with the same amount of calories and macros? Because of source it will opt to store one as body fat and the other as muscle?
answer this... how come when i have oats blended with whey im hungry an hour later and have to take a dump but when i eat a bowl of cooked oatmeal and scrambled egg whites im satisfied for twice as long and havent hit the can yet.
This is easily answered. It has never been a secret that we do not sense liquid food the same as solid, this is probably more psychological than anything else. Think you won't gain weight drinking soda all day? C'mon. Like I stated earlier if you are not simulating chewing when drinking shakes there shakes alone digestion issues may arise but these are easily remedied.
and if youre telling me eating 50g carbs from ice cream and 50 grams protein from tofu 5x a day will result in the same physique as 50g carbs from oats and 50g pro from chicken/fish/egg/beef than im not even going to respond to this!!!I never said shit about tofu. IT is well known the EAA component of tofu is far inferior to any meat or dairy based protein powder. I love how you return to the absolute arguement. The suggestion I made was if you have already eaten a bowl of oats and chicken for breakfast if your next meal is chicken and 50g of carbs from ice cream your results will be no different than 50gs from more oatmeal. What do you think is wrong with ice cream? is the insulin causing fat gain? the high GI? Pick one of these outdated narrow simplified concepts bodybuilders still cling to and I will evaluate it fairly.

I answered in bold

[fathead]

yes you did. you think subway is an ok part of a bodybuilding diet. i am done.

[Ritch]

proof is in the pudding :a+

Oh man I must be slow, didn`t get that one until now, sometimes I just try to read to fast :laugh

[AlladdinSane]

I am acutally bigger now that I use more whey than whole food. It seemed for a long time I could not get over the 205-210lbs mark. Just want to note that I don`t expect everyone to agree with what I`m going to say, just writing some observations of what happened with me. I actually only eat one meal a day now with meat. No stinking fish or eggs anymore. Most the time the one whole food meal I eat consists of 1/3 kg of chicken with 2 cups of brown rice and serving of progressive green veges. Or as I was doing this summer 2 hamburgers on the BBQ. Would like to point out that Jeff Rodriguez a natural champion recently on No Bull Radio said he usually only gets one real meal in a day. The rest being oats and whey. How do you like that Fathead! I know there`s always exeptions... But don`t you think you`re one as well eating so much whole food?

Can actually say I weigh more now 225lbs today natural at 5`11 using more shakes than I did about 7 years ago when I did about 600mg test prop and 40mg of d bol a day eating 2 steaks a day (lunch and supper) with 2-3 yolks, 3-4 whites and 200-300 grams of ground beef before bed. Then shakes in between. So I`ve kinda done the example pointed out if you took 2 people and put them... Not to that extreem but it wouldn`t be necessary. Plus with more whole food I was on gear and the results were inferior. So what do you expect me to say?

The whole food debate I kinda think is like the machines vs freeweights debate. Go with what works for you. Not to open a big can of worms here... If I were on a low cal diet there`s no question I`d favor whole foods as they keep you fuller longer. But in the case of mass, the shakes I consume are very filling, get in more quality nutrients and allow me to repeat more often. Plus it`s easier to be consistent. I think in Fathead`s case he is just so used to whole food it`s odd for him to be satisfied with a shake. There is a huge difference how the both of us eat. My hat goes off to you Mr Fathead for the dicipline to consume that much whole food. And not just eating it, preparing it. Do you do this or do you have someone else do it, just curious. But I`d be shittin` all day if I were to eat that much whole food, it just wouldn`t go down. Either way let`s keep the debate rolling on this one!

But 7 years ago you'd prolly have to admit your metabolism was higher (as most of ours were, lol) and that would have even been compounded by your use of AAS. Not only that, but honestly the amount of food you were eating was not much. I've seen junior high kids eat more than that AND weigh less.

So now that you're older with a slower metabolism and eating (drinking) food (shakes) that are a little more dense caloricly so that you can have more of them without feeling full, I'm not surprised that you're a bit heavier. And while 225 at 5'11" is better than 210 at 5'11", it's hardly the 250-260 you're capable of. I just can't help but think that you'd have been better off (read: bigger, stronger, heavier) with increasing your real food intake instead of your shake intake.

And remember, "Anything worth having isn't gotten easily." ;)

[Ritch]

Well I hardly know any junior high kids who eat two steaks a day with 2 cups of pasta, rice, or potatoes, but I guess you do lol! Sure some kids may eat more calories than I was but are these quality cals or chips and crap were talking here? Keep in mind I was eating about 300grams of protein about 500 grams of carbs and a good 100 grams of fat back then. Pretty much like I am now but actually less protein. I eat 5 let`s just call them food portions a day now and am doing much better on that for some reason. I think one of them is paranoa. I used to be one paranoid mofo when it came to food. If I was 15 minutes late for a meal I became a real prick. I think that type of negative stress can be harmul to muscle growth overall. I used to always do the 6-8 rep protocol. Taking a weight from 6-8 reps and suddenly doing 12 is a big improvement in my mind. From there I`ve acutally been lifting more weight at 12 reps than I could do in the 6-8 range.

You sure are rasing the bar high here talking about 250-260 man. Although I wasen`t sure to even get 215, now that I`m at 225, 230 seems possible, was actually a light 226 yesterday. But 250 natural? I`ve never seen anyone get that big natural with decent bodyfat. Well this one guy but he`s a freak man. He only eats twice a day on top of that! And only started training legs recently. Not that I have anything against steroid use, I just know if I go that route I don`t think I`ll ever want to stop. Anyway I still think to get bigger I`d just add in more whey, oats and fruit. I can just see fathead shaking his head here...

Just wanted to add that yes you`re indeed right my metabolism was much faster 7 years ago.

[AlladdinSane]

A natural 250-260 is totally reasonable for 5'11"

I'm not sure if you know ShortDave, but he's 5'6" and when he started lifting he was 140ish. He managed to get to 170ish then leveled out.

I met him at that point. He told me he couldn't gain ANY more weight. I then taught him how to eat and he put on 20 lbs in the first month. Now it's a few years later and he never drops below 205-210 and is in the middle of a big push to get to 230-235. He's clean. He eats more real food than shakes.

I can tell by looking at him on a day to day basis if he's been drinking more shakes than eating real food, or vise versa. Something about the quality gets lost when there is too much liquid food.

Again, this whole topic is moot if we're not talking about being bigger and better than average...

[ironwill]

A natural 250-260 is totally reasonable for 5'11"

I'm not sure if you know ShortDave, but he's 5'6" and when he started lifting he was 140ish. He managed to get to 170ish then leveled out.

I met him at that point. He told me he couldn't gain ANY more weight. I then taught him how to eat and he put on 20 lbs in the first month. Now it's a few years later and he never drops below 205-210 and is in the middle of a big push to get to 230-235. He's clean. He eats more real food than shakes.

I can tell by looking at him on a day to day basis if he's been drinking more shakes than eating real food, or vise versa. Something about the quality gets lost when there is too much liquid food.

Again, this whole topic is moot if we're not talking about being bigger and better than average...

teach me that trick you taught SD...

I find a huge difference in my body appearance when eating only shakes, as ive had to do a few times on the road....i throw some good lean steak in and wham, the next morning i appear way harder....even for a fat guy...
i eat meat at least 3 times per day, shakes with oats 2 times per day, LBas a couple meals per day....thats about it....but again, when i throw whole food, especially red meat in, my body changes, real fast...

[AlladdinSane]

:D

But that's what I mean. Can survival be sustained through liquid food? Sure. Will real food food ultimately yield better results? Absolutely.

[ironwill]

just so we are clear...im agreeing...lol...

absotutely....lol...

i also went from a lean mean 186 lbs, to a kinda chubby 278 in about 8 yrs.....i could have done it way faster if i knew what i know now....i got to 228-230 prior to hitting any super supps...at 13 percent...bf, and i was using pvl myx-40 for many of thiose gaseous yrs...now i cut right back on the pro powder and feel much better, less gas as well..

[AlladdinSane]

Oh, I knew we were agreeing. (How could we not? Great minds and all... lol).

My-X-40?!?!?!?! Awesome! I also lived on that shite when I was a runty 220! LOL As soon as I got enough $$ to eat food, I shot up in weight too.

Gas? I remember... ew.

[5151]

yes you did. you think subway is an ok part of a bodybuilding diet. i am done.

I came here for an intelligent debate and gave you my contentions and you offer me this reply? You know what's interesting, you claim Subway couldn't be part of a bodybuilding diet and I asked you why, hell I gave you possible examples and you couldn't answer. Give me a legitimate reason why Subway couldn't be part of a bodybuilding diet?

There's also about 5 other questions I asked you in that response that I would appreciate an answer to. I come to this board to learn and to share and if you refuse to answer questions or consider other people's contributions I'm not sure what you're doing here?

[5151]

teach me that trick you taught SD...

I find a huge difference in my body appearance when eating only shakes, as ive had to do a few times on the road....i throw some good lean steak in and wham, the next morning i appear way harder....even for a fat guy...
i eat meat at least 3 times per day, shakes with oats 2 times per day, LBas a couple meals per day....thats about it....but again, when i throw whole food, especially red meat in, my body changes, real fast...

this is interesting, I've heard other claim after eating a steak they notice increased vascularity and hardness, these people typically do well on a no/low carb scenario when dieting and often feel tired and sluggish soon after a large carb meal. Is it the same for you?

[5151]

Oh, I knew we were agreeing. (How could we not? Great minds and all... lol).

My-X-40?!?!?!?! Awesome! I also lived on that shite when I was a runty 220! LOL As soon as I got enough $$ to eat food, I shot up in weight too.

Gas? I remember... ew.

I have this issue as well with many proteins, switching to an isolate remedies most of them. My question is when moving from a diet with many liquid meals to whole foods would you merely replace the shake with a piece of meat or would you accommodate for the changes in calories? Also, when taking your shakes without any sort of solid food would you mimic chewing?

[Ritch]

Well I`d really be interested in hearing if your willing to share alladdinSane this trick to eating more real food. Not that I could apply it now because of the cost. Could maybe do it with large quantities of ground beef but it sure tastes nasty reheated. I used to eat a about 40 grams worth with 2-3 cups of sweet potatoes twice a day. A runty 220 you say! I guess we have different perceptions of what big is. At 225 right now my 38 waist size jeans are feeling very tight in the legs. To me that`s not runty at all and way bigger than average if I do dare say so. Or are you just trying to push my buttons here! lol...

[ironwill]

this is interesting, I've heard other claim after eating a steak they notice increased vascularity and hardness, these people typically do well on a no/low carb scenario when dieting and often feel tired and sluggish soon after a large carb meal. Is it the same for you?
right on bro....I am exactly that way...interesting, i eat hi carbs, not even to high, and i am buggerd, sluggish, bloaty and feel like a hangover...I eat redmeat, and i get full and vascular within an hour or 2 at most...i feel pumped and full, i do not know why, but you are right on with your thoughts about me and carbs....cool stuff..

BTW, just to throw it out there...one of my best buds, is 3rd in Canada ranked in his weight class, and subway is pretty much a 3 time per week thing for him during his prep, and off season, it is daily...for what it s worth...i dont know the nutritional values of subway etc., nor do i care, im just sayin he does it, and he is a damn good BB..

[ironwill]

I have this issue as well with many proteins, switching to an isolate remedies most of them. My question is when moving from a diet with many liquid meals to whole foods would you merely replace the shake with a piece of meat or would you accommodate for the changes in calories? Also, when taking your shakes without any sort of solid food would you mimic chewing?
I just switch from 50 grams protein shake, to 50 grams worth of meat, chicken, or steak...or maybe fish, i dont really think much of fish as a protein, but anyway...Off season, im staying, 50 pro, 50 carb, 25 fat per meal....
to see how it works out for me, but for right this minute, im still dieting at 25 carbs, 55 pro, 12g fat....im also doing no carbs a couple days per week prior to wknd and loading up on carbs, a bit, just moderate on wknds from here on in, and strict all week, until done..im kind of doing a cycle type/keto diet, without staying keto to long...It is working well..

[AlladdinSane]

this is interesting, I've heard other claim after eating a steak they notice increased vascularity and hardness, these people typically do well on a no/low carb scenario when dieting and often feel tired and sluggish soon after a large carb meal. Is it the same for you?

I work this way also.

[AlladdinSane]

My question is when moving from a diet with many liquid meals to whole foods would you merely replace the shake with a piece of meat or would you accommodate for the changes in calories? Also, when taking your shakes without any sort of solid food would you mimic chewing?

I'm confused. A whey isolate/water shake yields 30g protein, 0g fat, 1g carbs @124 cals. A 6oz cut of lean steak yields 37g protein, 9g fat, 0g carbs @229 cals.

Are you asking if I'd have a smaller steak to get the same low amount of cals?

Or are we assuming that the shake that is being replaced is a weight gain shake and is loaded with carbs and fats as well as protein?

If that is the case then, yes, you would add more food to get the same amount of cals from real food as opposed to the weight gain shake. I mean, really, when was the last time any of you ate a steak smaller than 12-16 ounces?

No mimicking of the chewing. lol

[AlladdinSane]

Well I`d really be interested in hearing if your willing to share alladdinSane this trick to eating more real food. Not that I could apply it now because of the cost. Could maybe do it with large quantities of ground beef but it sure tastes nasty reheated. I used to eat a about 40 grams worth with 2-3 cups of sweet potatoes twice a day. A runty 220 you say! I guess we have different perceptions of what big is. At 225 right now my 38 waist size jeans are feeling very tight in the legs. To me that`s not runty at all and way bigger than average if I do dare say so. Or are you just trying to push my buttons here! lol...

:D Not trying to push your buttons. I'm a bit bigger than average so when I was 220 vs now, I was runty.

As far as "tricks" go, there aren't any, really. It's like a fat guy looking for "tricks" to not eat donuts and do cardio. It's just something you have to do to achieve a result. Dave learned it pretty quickly. It's aptly named Force-Feeding.

He never measures anything out, he simply cooks and eats entire packages of meats and potatoes, or rice, or whatever. Eyeball what you think you can handle, then pile a bit more on your plate or in your tupperware or whatever.

PS I did think of a trick I taught him that just kinda came natural to me... eat FAST. The faster the better. ;)

[5151]

right on bro....I am exactly that way...interesting, i eat hi carbs, not even to high, and i am buggerd, sluggish, bloaty and feel like a hangover...I eat redmeat, and i get full and vascular within an hour or 2 at most...i feel pumped and full, i do not know why, but you are right on with your thoughts about me and carbs....cool stuff..

BTW, just to throw it out there...one of my best buds, is 3rd in Canada ranked in his weight class, and subway is pretty much a 3 time per week thing for him during his prep, and off season, it is daily...for what it s worth...i dont know the nutritional values of subway etc., nor do i care, im just sayin he does it, and he is a damn good BB..


I work this way also.

I think this is true for many people and it probably caused poor insulin sensitivity and over secretion of insulin. Kind of why it drives me nuts when some people say nothing gives me pumps and energy like carbs, well that's great for you but as you two are prime examples it is not like that for everyone across the board.
ironwill, it looks as though you have discovered this yourself and manipulated your diet to what your body tells you rather than doing "what you are supposed to do". It seems to be working!

[5151]

I'm confused. A whey isolate/water shake yields 30g protein, 0g fat, 1g carbs @124 cals. A 6oz cut of lean steak yields 37g protein, 9g fat, 0g carbs @229 cals.

Are you asking if I'd have a smaller steak to get the same low amount of cals?

Or are we assuming that the shake that is being replaced is a weight gain shake and is loaded with carbs and fats as well as protein?

If that is the case then, yes, you would add more food to get the same amount of cals from real food as opposed to the weight gain shake. I mean, really, when was the last time any of you ate a steak smaller than 12-16 ounces?

No mimicking of the chewing. lol


:D Not trying to push your buttons. I'm a bit bigger than average so when I was 220 vs now, I was runty.

As far as "tricks" go, there aren't any, really. It's like a fat guy looking for "tricks" to not eat donuts and do cardio. It's just something you have to do to achieve a result. Dave learned it pretty quickly. It's aptly named Force-Feeding.

He never measures anything out, he simply cooks and eats entire packages of meats and potatoes, or rice, or whatever. Eyeball what you think you can handle, then pile a bit more on your plate or in your tupperware or whatever.

PS I did think of a trick I taught him that just kinda came natural to me... eat FAST. The faster the better. ;)

Well that got confusing fast :). What I was trying to get at is if you were having a shake that was 124 cals and replaced it with a 6oz steak that was 229 cals(and then later you said your steaks are typically larger) the major variable seems to be cals not type of protein, no? Sure a meat meal is going to be higher in cals and more cals equal more growth but my arguement was always that if cals and macros were the same (perhaps you added extra oats or milk to the shake or you took extra scoops) there would be no difference.

I appreciate your personal feedback and obviously it is working for you but don't you think your switching shakes for meat experiment was heavily confounded by not controlling the MOST important variable?

[5151]

:D Not trying to push your buttons. I'm a bit bigger than average so when I was 220 vs now, I was runty.

As far as "tricks" go, there aren't any, really. It's like a fat guy looking for "tricks" to not eat donuts and do cardio. It's just something you have to do to achieve a result. Dave learned it pretty quickly. It's aptly named Force-Feeding.

He never measures anything out, he simply cooks and eats entire packages of meats and potatoes, or rice, or whatever. Eyeball what you think you can handle, then pile a bit more on your plate or in your tupperware or whatever.

PS I did think of a trick I taught him that just kinda came natural to me... eat FAST. The faster the better. ;)

I think I could argue rather convincingly that you could get ultra lean eating donuts and not doing cardio. In fact dropping the cardio would probably be more beneficial than deleterious. But perhaps that is for another day? ;)

[Houstonbc]

I could think I could argue rather convincingly that you could get ultra lean eating donuts and not doing cardio. In fact dropping the cardio would probably be more beneficial than deleterious. But perhaps that is for another day?

you craaazy man! jk

[5151]

you craaazy man! jk

Haha, I can't say I advise donuts but there is no doubt it can be done. And as for cardio here's an interesting article:
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=861&Itemid=10403

As Poliquin would say: "continuous aerobic work is basically exercise induced castration!” HA

[5151]

I came here for an intelligent debate and gave you my contentions and you offer me this reply? You know what's interesting, you claim Subway couldn't be part of a bodybuilding diet and I asked you why, hell I gave you possible examples and you couldn't answer. Give me a legitimate reason why Subway couldn't be part of a bodybuilding diet?

There's also about 5 other questions I asked you in that response that I would appreciate an answer to. I come to this board to learn and to share and if you refuse to answer questions or consider other people's contributions I'm not sure what you're doing here?

bump. I'm interested in learning why bread is bad for me.

[trykillthis]

bump. I'm interested in learning why bread is bad for me.

I believe it has to do with the fact that its a high glycemic index food. Highly processed so you get a quick blood sugar jump then its drops back off fairly quickly. As opposed to something like oatmeal where you get a slower steadier blood sugar rise over a longer period of time.

[5151]

I believe it has to do with the fact that its a high glycemic index food. Highly processed so you get a quick blood sugar jump then its drops back off fairly quickly. As opposed to something like oatmeal where you get a slower steadier blood sugar rise over a longer period of time.
Thanks for the answer:)
I honestly hope fathead has a better reason than that. The way he talked it was as though I was an idiot for thinking Subway could be in a bodybuilding diet. If he still believes in basing his food choices on the GI he may want to enter the 21st century. What you just wrote may have been considered true in the 1980s but 30 years later we know much better. Theoretically even if the GI scale worked the way it was believed in the 80s why are you worried about how the blood sugar is released?

[Ritch]

Thanks for the answer:)
I honestly hope fathead has a better reason than that. The way he talked it was as though I was an idiot for thinking Subway could be in a bodybuilding diet. If he still believes in basing his food choices on the GI he may want to enter the 21st century. What you just wrote may have been considered true in the 1980s but 30 years later we know much better. Theoretically even if the GI scale worked the way it was believed in the 80s why are you worried about how the blood sugar is released?

I gotta say I agree with everything you`ve said so far, exept for the GI information here. I often use the term GI but the correct term is insulin index. I just use GI because everyone knows what it is. I mean you`ve never felt the difference say after eating a bowl of sugary cereal and protein, to a serving of oatmeal and protein? There is a difference in energy levels, one droping much faster than the other. This is how the I see the GI chart. If I remember correctly a 12 inch sub will have about 100grams of carbs with 50 grams fo protein. It could be a good second post workout meal. I wouldn`t make it my prime choice but it`s not all that bad, lots of sugar in the sauces and I`m not sure those breads are the best blood sugar wise. The good breads are the ones at the grocerey store made inhouse like rhy bread (spelling) basically the less tastefull one when toasted they taste like malbatoast...

Just the last thing you mention "why are you worried about blood sugar release" well keeping it stable will prevent diabetes. All the lack of keeping blood sugar stable is what is cause this fat epidemic of course the lack of exercise is not helping either.

[5151]

I gotta say I agree with everything you`ve said so far, exept for the GI information here. I often use the term GI but the correct term is insulin index. I just use GI because everyone knows what it is. I mean you`ve never felt the difference say after eating a bowl of sugary cereal and protein, to a serving of oatmeal and protein? There is a difference in energy levels, one droping much faster than the other. This is how the I see the GI chart. If I remember correctly a 12 inch sub will have about 100grams of carbs with 50 grams fo protein. It could be a good second post workout meal. I wouldn`t make it my prime choice but it`s not all that bad, lots of sugar in the sauces and I`m not sure those breads are the best blood sugar wise. The good breads are the ones at the grocerey store made inhouse like rhy bread (spelling) basically the less tastefull one when toasted they taste like malbatoast...

Just the last thing you mention "why are you worried about blood sugar release" well keeping it stable will prevent diabetes. All the lack of keeping blood sugar stable is what is cause this fat epidemic of course the lack of exercise is not helping either.

Okay but here's my issue, all the references fathead made earlier especially to my oatmeal vs ice cream debate make no sense if keeping low GI is the concern here. Understand complexity of the carbohydrate is not the end of the story when it comes to blood sugar levels. Type of carbohydrate is just as, if not more important, along with amount consumed and the glycemic load of the meal. The complexity or length of sugar chain making the it low GI is terribly outdated. Many people including AOR covered this over EIGHT years ago (check attached PDF). If you look at the chart provided oats are higher than ice cream just fyi ;). And I think nutritionally ice cream rivals oats because of the calcium issue I eluded to earlier which fathead seemed to ignore. On top of this combining CHO with protein and fat which I'm sure we all do and call "a meal" will drastically reduce the insulin response as well. As far as the subway sauces, I'll take mustard and eat as much as I want, though as I've stated before if calories are controlled use extra fat ranch if you want. The chart included in the article listed have white bread and whole wheat bread with almost identical GI listings. Keeping it stable may prevent diabetes but the exercise and controlled diets we all take or should take part in take care of diabetes just fine. In fact weightlifting has a fantastic impact on insulin resistance.

High insulin isn't causing the fat epidemic in America. These processed foods which are dense in calories but not as satiating as nutritious food are causing over eating and the influx of calories coupled with a low activity life style is what is causing the obesity epidemic. It would be an issue for us but bodybuilders should have their calorie totals controlled as I can't state enough times.

Insulin isn't the be all and end all of fat gain, it was 10 years ago but science has evolved.

Again, I'm interested in fathead answering my questions instead of him forwarding the diet mantra so many bodybuilders have which make them feel superior for eating shitty tasting food. Wouldn't it make you mad if you realized you could have got identical results eating better tasting food? But that couldn't be it could it, bro?

[Ritch]

You make some good points as usual. I`ll check the reference tomorrow, gotta get ready for work...

[5151]

You make some good points as usual. I`ll check the reference tomorrow, gotta get ready for work...

interested to see what you think about it. I've got some abstracts and things that downplay the ideology that insulin is the be all and end to fat gain if you're interested. This site seems to be slow so I'm never sure if there is enough interest to post things.

[trykillthis]

No such thing as too much info!!

[theboss]

recommended buying whole pork tenderloins and cutting them up.

i do this...costco!!
pork loin centre...$22 - cut into 13 steaks 1" thick...and a 7" roast cooking now @ home.....i do it wth prime rib as well...incredible savings! i cut them and put 4 or so in a freezer bag...each bag a diff. marinade.....when i want to cook it..pull it out of the freezer and throw it in the sink in the morning.....already marinaded..and ready to grill when i get home from work

REAL FOOD BABY!!!

[Ritch]

The last paragraph pretty much sums it up well. Saying to cut back on bagels, bread, pasta and rice. I think the main point of the article is to show that some carbs are not as slow release as people thought they were. And the examples given are true. Most of my carb sources come from, brown rice, oatmeal, yogourt, sometimes sweet potatoes.

Some contradictions... John Berardi is against milk because of the insulin spike, this article rates it low. So who do you beleive? I`ve read that fructose although having low glycemic looks good on paper, is in fact badly absorbed by the body. Now I don`t have soures to back this up, just remember reading on testosterone a while back and they had their own "proof" to back it up. The aritlce states you can`t use protein or fats for energy, the palumbo diet crowd would say otherwise...

I think an overall agreement we can all make if that to gain mass, there must be an overload of calories. In the article they mention combining a little fat with the carb meal, assuming there is protein as well. That`s why the zone diet became popular. I`d agree with this for mass gains (adding fat with carbs) but would avoid it for cutting. I`m a strong beleiver is Berardi`s recommendation of protein+carb with minimal fats for x amount of meals, then protein+fats for the remainer. It allows you to eat the maximum amount of carbs without gaining fat or even loosing fat. Therefore mixiing fats with the carbs in thrown out the window as far as a thereory goes for cutting. Remeber I don`t think this article was focusing on how to make you look good naked, I am... So it`s normal the info will be different. I try to present what`s best for the bodybuilder. Now a problem with this is that someone could say that the list of low glycemic carbs is small and still debatable which one`s are low glycemic. So one has to try them out for themselves and see what`s best if in doubt. It just takes dedication to be able to eat the same foods which I have no problem with and why I can eat so many carbs without getting fat. The people who complain are just weak and not willing to suffer to look good and is why we are small in numbers... At least the article says to replace special K with oatmeal! Which makes sense because special k is a nasty rave drug!

Now I`m not convinced that sugar is not bad for you like the article says, nor it`s link to diabetes and am calling bullshit on that. When sugar is spiked, it goes down, making you want more therefore repeating the cycle, leading to an overabundance of calories consumed. Low GI`s saturate you more and fruits will have fiber to slow absorption keeping you fuller longer in a better mood keeping the munchies under control. This would even hold more truth in the emotional eaters out theres. That is my main argument for low glycemic carbs.

It seems in everything we read these days, there are motives behind them. I once heard that since the low carb boom, certain sectors in the farming industries are slowing down. You don`t think an article like this can maybe influence someone to eat the foods that are not being sold like before. It really troubles me that they say that sugar is not linked to diabetes. The sugar industry must be worth what billions? And if people are not consuming their sugar the industry is loosing out. Which I bet is related to the pharmaceutical industry to make cures for all the sicknesses and all the diet pills caused by the overconsumption of sugar. Remember these people are the scum of scum and will say anything to get you to buy their product. I am even aware of a study presented by the sugar industry that was presented to the FDA that proved sugar did not cause diabetes, I just have to call the shit of a bull on that one and try to argue with anyone who tells me otherwise like this article hints of. I`m not saying you can`t get cut with a restricted calorie diet that`s high GI carb, I just believe there is a better and easier way to do it.

So in the end it`s just of game of picking the extreme that works for you. Don`t respond well to carbs, do the ketogenic thing, because you can find an article "soucing" references that "prove" carbs to be the devil. That did not work for me. Then the zone thing came another exreme, not allowing you to go above or lower in cals or macros listed. Well that did not work for me. Then Berardi somewhat in between came along with a theory relatively easy to follow and it was the "right porage" for me.

[5151]

Awesome looks like a genuine discussion broke out. I'll answer below in bold.

The last paragraph pretty much sums it up well. Saying to cut back on bagels, bread, pasta and rice. I think the main point of the article is to show that some carbs are not as slow release as people thought they were. And the examples given are true. Most of my carb sources come from, brown rice, oatmeal, yogourt, sometimes sweet potatoes.I agree that the article was essentially saying to cut back on those fast release carbs, I believe that is a good recommendation for the general public who do not watch their caloric intake as rapid swings in blood sugar lead to over eating. Most body recompositionists know exactly how much of what they are taking in so that recommendation doesn't have to hold true for them

Some contradictions... John Berardi is against milk because of the insulin spike, this article rates it low. So who do you beleive? I`ve read that fructose although having low glycemic looks good on paper, is in fact badly absorbed by the body. Now I don`t have soures to back this up, just remember reading on testosterone a while back and they had their own "proof" to back it up.Hmm when did you read this article? Berardis views may have changed. This excerpt is from a recent article(http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/marc-mcdougal/john-berardi-interview-1?page=0%2C1):

As I teach my athletes, there are certain nutritional targets we need to hit. And once they’re hit, if you still need more calories to grow, eat what you want. It’s all fair game as long as your blood profile stays in check and so does body composition.

Indeed, one of my bobsleigh athletes eats 6 solid, clean meals a day year-round. And when he’s trying to gain muscle mass, he adds 1/2L of chocolate milk to every meal because he loves the stuff. And the strategy works! But remember, he’s already covered his nutritional bases and remains healthy throughout the process. For the most part I hate most of what t-nation produces but some stuffs not bad. Berardi has put out some retarded shit but his theories lately seem to make sense. Like I said cover your bases nutritionally then eat whatever the hell you want. The aritlce states you can`t use protein or fats for energy, the palumbo diet crowd would say otherwise...I don't remember the exact wording in the article but it is common knowledge carbs are highly preferred except when in a low carb situation(such as the Palumbo diet), the average person(who this article is written for) ain't going low carb typcially.


I think an overall agreement we can all make if that to gain mass, there must be an overload of calories. In the article they mention combining a little fat with the carb meal, assuming there is protein as well. That`s why the zone diet became popular. I`d agree with this for mass gains (adding fat with carbs) but would avoid it for cutting. I`m a strong beleiver is Berardi`s recommendation of protein+carb with minimal fats for x amount of meals, then protein+fats for the remainer. It allows you to eat the maximum amount of carbs without gaining fat or even loosing fat.I strongly disagree with this. I simply ask how or why? Therefore mixiing fats with the carbs in thrown out the window as far as a thereory goes for cutting. Remeber I don`t think this article was focusing on how to make you look good naked, I am... So it`s normal the info will be different. I try to present what`s best for the bodybuilder. Now a problem with this is that someone could say that the list of low glycemic carbs is small and still debatable which one`s are low glycemic. So one has to try them out for themselves and see what`s best if in doubt. It just takes dedication to be able to eat the same foods which I have no problem with and why I can eat so many carbs without getting fat. The people who complain are just weak and not willing to suffer to look good and is why we are small in numbers... At least the article says to replace special K with oatmeal! Which makes sense because special k is a nasty rave drug!Berardi touches on his food combining ideas in that interview I linked above and mentions it is only one weapon in an arsenal. I agree based on your personal insulin sensitivity in the weight loss scenario you need to pick your poison low fat or low carb. Again this article wasn't presented as an example of how to eat but rather an example of how many people don't understand the GI scale and how it has been better understood for so many years in the science community.

Now I`m not convinced that sugar is not bad for you like the article says, nor it`s link to diabetes and am calling bullshit on that. When sugar is spiked, it goes down, making you want more therefore repeating the cycle, leading to an overabundance of calories consumed. Low GI`s saturate you more and fruits will have fiber to slow absorption keeping you fuller longer in a better mood keeping the munchies under control. This would even hold more truth in the emotional eaters out theres. That is my main argument for low glycemic carbs. Fair enough and I agree with everything you stated here. My arguement has always been if you can control calories and bear with the munchies then the GI doesn't really apply to you. Sure to your grandma who wants to lose weight but doesn't know what a macro nutrient is a low GI recommendation makes sense but not for us OCD calorie counting anomalies.

It seems in everything we read these days, there are motives behind them. I once heard that since the low carb boom, certain sectors in the farming industries are slowing down. You don`t think an article like this can maybe influence someone to eat the foods that are not being sold like before. It really troubles me that they say that sugar is not linked to diabetes. The sugar industry must be worth what billions? And if people are not consuming their sugar the industry is loosing out. Which I bet is related to the pharmaceutical industry to make cures for all the sicknesses and all the diet pills caused by the overconsumption of sugar. Remember these people are the scum of scum and will say anything to get you to buy their product. I am even aware of a study presented by the sugar industry that was presented to the FDA that proved sugar did not cause diabetes, I just have to call the shit of a bull on that one and try to argue with anyone who tells me otherwise like this article hints of. I`m not saying you can`t get cut with a restricted calorie diet that`s high GI carb, I just believe there is a better and easier way to do it.I am interested in the study you reference. I strongly believe diabetes is being cause by inactive(activity increases insulin sensitivity) people eating processed food which are calorie dense but not satiating(refined sugar fits here), so they are eating tons of the crap and getting fat. Again if calories are controlled and exercise added all this goes out the window. It is my contention that rather than saying sugar causes diabetes it is sugar causing a cascade of events in an inactive population that is causing diabetes.

So in the end it`s just of game of picking the extreme that works for you. Don`t respond well to carbs, do the ketogenic thing, because you can find an article "soucing" references that "prove" carbs to be the devil. That did not work for me. Then the zone thing came another exreme, not allowing you to go above or lower in cals or macros listed. Well that did not work for me. Then Berardi somewhat in between came along with a theory relatively easy to follow and it was the "right porage" for me.I can't argue here and in the end results are all that matters but I think the most important statement in that paragraph was "easy to follow."

In the end I would rather put up with occasional munchies and and be able to eat all the shit I'm not supposed to be able combined with nutritious food while counting calories, then suffer a diet I hate for equal results. Food combining will work for fat loss but not for the reasons Berardi claims, it works because it is a clever way to get you to eat less. Just like every other weight loss diet out there.

Was a quick response so bear with any of the spelling/grammar issues.

[gordi]

Dr. John Berardi seems to have more or less moved away from food combining. His recent writings concentrate far more on nutrient timing. Specifically, he recommends that carbs should be consumed mainly during the post-exercise period.

Here's a lengthy excerpt from his interview with Marc McDougal, where he talks about that specifically:


McDougal: I notice sometimes you get pigeon-holed into “The Food Combining Guy.” What do you have to say to this?

Berardi: Well, for the record, how my Protein+Carb and Protein+Fat meal combining ideas ever spread so quickly and became so controversial is beyond me. In fact, it still baffles me. Let’s put this into perspective here. Over the last 7 years I’ve published over 200 articles, maybe closer to 300. And I’ve published about 6 books.

Of these books and articles, the P+C and P+F ideas were outlined in detail in about 2, maybe 3, of the articles – articles that were written about 5-6 years ago - back in 2001 or 2002. Plus, these articles outlined one approach I’ve used with success in my clients and athletes.

So, again, as these articles represent about 1&#37; of my total work, these articles were written years ago, and these articles represented one approach of many I’ve toyed around with over the years, the fact that somehow a few people still think that I’m the “food combining guy” is beyond me.

But seriously, Marc, does anyone actually think that I’m the “food combining guy?” If so - what a weird, and narrow definition of someone’s body of work. Regardless, if someone thinks this about me, that probably means they’ve not read anything of mine in the last 5 or 6 years. And if so, I encourage them to catch up a bit. Seriously, I think they’re missing out on some great content.

Be that as it may, are you still invoking some form of PC/PF eating?

I am, sort of. But sort of not as well. Let me explain…

Nowadays, my ideas revolve more around the concept of “nutrient timing” or the notion that different nutrients are tolerated better or worse during certain times of the day. Take carbs, for example. Carbohydrate tolerance (including insulin sensitivity or glucose disposal) is best during and after training. And this has been shown in both healthy and diabetic populations. From this, in general, I recommend that higher carb meals are eaten post-exercise while lower carb meals are eaten the rest of the day.

Functionally, this means that you’ll be eating higher protein and carb meals with a lower fat content (call them P+C meals if you like) during and after training. And you’ll be eating higher protein and fat meals with a lower carb content (call them P+F meals if you like) during the rest of the day.

So, I guess this ends up being food combining of a sort. But I think it’s more in the realm of nutrient timing than food combining. Regardless of what you call it – this strategy works very, very well. So I guess we can quote ol’ Shakespeare here…

What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
by any other name would smell as sweet.



That makes sense, Romeo. So let me ask you this. Do you always have athletes and clients restrict carbs outside of the “workout window?”

Absolutely not! As I said above, these guidelines are general ones.

In the end, it’s your body type that should determine how you manage your carb and fat intake. If you’re more on the ectomorphic end, carbs should be higher and fats more controlled. And if you’re on the endomorphic end, fats should be higher and carbs more controlled.

However, within the context of a single day, as carb tolerance is best post exercise, this is the time the bulk of your carbs should come – regardless of your total daily intake.

The whole interview:
http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/marc-mcdougal/john-berardi-interview-1?page=0,0

[5151]

yeah that's the Berardi article I was referencing in my reply to Ritch.
Some of Berardi's makes sense but he seems to be very selective when looking at the data and tends to ignore the full scope of what's out there.

[Ritch]

Hey 5151, I`d like to explain why I think the concept of protein+carbs and protein+fat is a good way to eat while cutting. It`s simple, I think carbs are necessary to keep muscle fullness and keep training intensity high. The key I believe is to eat the most ONE can tolerate while loosing bodyfat. The lowest I`d ever go in carbs would be a little over 200 grams, divided in the first three meals. Now just carbs+protein is leaving out the fats that`s why the remainder meals would be protein+fat. The fat we did not get during the day is consumed during these meals. Let`s say one would argue I want fats in the carb+protein meals. I`d say it`s not a good idea because at one point you have to limit the calories consumed per meal. You could have the same amount of calories if you reduced the carbs and added some fat, but why? It won`t allow you to eat as many carbs so this method takes full advantage of carbs eating them when you need them the most keeping muscles full, to have good training and function well mentally, then the last part of the day when we tend to be less active anyway, we won`t miss carbs really and is easy to fonction off protein and fats. It just takes the best of both worlds.

The study reference you ask for I`m sorry to say I have no clue where it is. In one of TC`s weekly articles he talked about it and was referenced at the end I beleive. This would have been a good 2-3 years ago.

I read Gordi`s post and I don`t see what the big change is in his recommendations. He`s just saying to eat less carbs. Therefore more fats and protein. Knowing my own body that would be terrible advice for me and he realizes that when talking about the ectomorphs... Of course I agree with the concept of eating most the carbs post workout. Personally after training, I have 100grams of simple carbs+protein, with, 2 hours later 150-180 grams carbs with 50 grams of protein then 3 hours later 100 grams of carbs and 40 grams of protein. Since jacking the carbs in the second post workout meal, I`ve gained about 15 lbs! Given the fact that these experts change their minds so often, I find myself less incline to follow their advice. I`ve found my range and to progress, I beleive it just needs to be followed to higher extremes.

[gordi]

Absolutely, if you've found what works for you then there's no reason to change it as long as it's still working... unless you think that something else might work even better. If you keep track of what's happening to your body, it's not that hard to figure out what is working and what isn't. That, in the end, is probably the best and most intelligent way to keep improving.

I still come out strongly in favour of getting the majority of your calories from whole foods and practicing healthy eating habits, simply because I think that if you can gain muscle, lose fat, AND improve your health (improve your lipid profiles, get your acid/base in balance, and get a lot of fiber and phytonutrients)... why not do it?

On the other hand... things like protein shakes and greens powder sure are convenient.

At my age (43) you start to get a lot more aware of what happens if you let things like lipids and pH get out of balance.

[5151]

Can't argue with either of you. Ritch your macro combining while dieting makes much more sense to me now. I agree that it just tends to be a by product of not having enough of each to spread around. Even in a weight gain scenario some of my meals tend to be PRO+CHO or PRO+FAT just because that's what I want to eat. I just don't believe there is some magical cell metabolism differences that Berardi used to claim. You are right his recommendations haven't really changed that much but his reasoning behind them really have.

[Ritch]

Now that I`m gaining though the macros tend to be carb+protein+fats for some meals There`s just no other way for me to get the calories in. That means I throw in a dessert after supper! I mean after a 2 cups of rice and 300 grams of chicken I`m rather full. For dessert I will have ice cream which we know is not that bad, but may eat a vachon brownie cake or oreo cakester with that. And before bed I drink my shake now with 2&#37; milk and some flavored 3.5% fat yougourt. Oh yeah plus the 2 tablespoons of natural peanut butter. In all before bed I get 50+grams of protein (if you count the protein in the yogourt) roughly 45 grams of carbs and about 40 grams of fat. I simply can`t stay in the protein+fat ratios here because beyond 30-40 grams of fat I just feel nauseous, so I add in other sources of calories that include carbs, plus it`s easy on the palette! I also think adding in more saturated fats from the fatty yogourt and 2% milk has helped me some. There was a good discussion about upping saturated fats in The Fat Round Table on t-nation. The meals I always stick to protein+carbs are the 2 post workout ones because I want maximum insulin secretion for either gaining or cutting. Pre work out tends to be protein and carbs. That`s also why I use supps. Sure white rice will raise insulin, but without butter or margirine, no way! You could have rice cakes, but I hardly consider that whole food. Plus I want fast absorption so whole food to me is out of the question nor desire although have nothing against it. Speaking of whole food I gotta get that rice and chicken going and I still feel full from the previous feeding. Gordi`s making me think I should get some blood work done, turning 32 soon...