Deadlift question

[Josh]

Hi everyone,

So I finally started to try deadlifts. I am a pretty small guy, and can't lift a lot of weight yet, so I started out with 35 lb plates on a 45 lb bar. It was really heavy for me, and my lower back hurts. On the 4th or 5th rep (did 7 sets including a warmup set), I would have a hard time keeping proper form. I wouldn't call it an injury, since I can still move around and pick things up, but it concerns me enough that I need your advice.

Is this normal/expected? Should I use the same weight next week (assuming that this week's pain will result in the muscle getting closer to where it needs to be,) or should I drop 5 or 10 lbs until I can do it without it hurting? I realize there's the whole "no pain, no gain" thing, but does that still matter when we're talking about lower back?

Thanks,
Josh

[Tank]

If you maintain an arch your lower back

If you avoid the butt from rounding at the bottom

If the shoulders are always higher than your shoulder

If your knees are lined up to your middle toes

If you dont exceed 8 reps

Then all should be fine.

Strech the hammies and glutes to relieve back tightness today and pre deadlift stretch the crap out of your chest and hip flexors and you should be good if you maintain all the above points.

[Amoral]

Yea dude, practice up before going too heavy. Form is a definite must on this exercise - and don't be afraid to ask bros in the gym for a helping hand. And try to look for guys that know what they're doing - you don't wanna hurt yourself further. Good luck!

[MIAGIONJUS]

a agree with Amoral... ask someone at the gym who knows wat their doing and ask them to watch ur form. Im sure they will be more than happy to do so. good luck and keep lifting!!

[edz71]

IMO .... the best way to learn how to do deads properly is to start by useing dumbells. This will alow you to start right away with the proper flex in the hips and will eliminate the rounding of the back. A nother benifit of starting with dumbell deadlifts is the strech you feel in the traps and you can start to get a feel for you body and how it reacts. Conventional deadlifting is a excellent lift for strength and size but must be done properly ..... the biggest mistake I see is wrong foot position wich will lead to poor hand spaceing on the bar. Everyone is built different so find where your stance will provide a good deep breath and elevated chest to start the lift, too many people pull straight up from the back not their heels. Hope this was a bit of help.

Cheers.....
Edz

[Josh]

Thanks, everyone. It's actually another guy at the gym who got me into these. Last Friday, he was showing me and my friend how to do them. He got us to do them with just the bar first, and said our form was good. Then he got us to try with 45 lb plates. I could only do 2 reps, but he still said my form was alright. So yesterday, I tried it with 35 lb plates. It was fine for a couple sets, but after more I was definitely losing my form and felt it in my lower back (still feel it a bit today.) I think I should drop another 5-10 lbs until I can do them properly.

[Gettin'r'round]

This has some interesting stuff.

http://www.weightsnet.com/Docs/deadlift.form.html

[cedric]

dont forget a proper warmup . some lighter sets to build up to your working weight. keep that chin up too to help avoid your lower back from arching.

[spankmonkey]

low back pain can come from a number of reasons when deadlifting, supposing no pre-exsisting injuries.
Bad form is the obvious; rounding of the back, dropping shoulders below ass, hyperextending at the top.
Typically bad form through the set (if you start off with good form), would indicate muscle failure and you compensate by changing form to recruit other muscles to assist.
If you are new to DL, start slow, move slow and deliberate, maintain form and adjust weight to that end.
The muscle soarness you have described may be your errector spinae and QL's. With patience and percerverance you will develope the back strength for big DL's.

[Josh]

Thanks to the recent posters for more helpful info!

[michealJ]

I found droping my weight to be a lot of help. Keep your form lots of weight will come in time

[Rhinobolt10]

if by low back pain you mean viscious lower back pumps, don't worry about it, it's normal.

[Rhinobolt10]

And don't worry too much, I've never actually seen a guy hurt his back from deads... ever... and I've seen some amazingly bad form on amazingly heavy sets. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.

A lot of powerliters round their upper backs on purpose, but keep a low back arch, or at least a flat back.

Some just let their form go and don't even worry about it.

I've never seen anyone have good form on a 1RM dead, but if you're going to use high reps I'd definately say you can use good form and terminate the set when form breaks down.

[tex]

lower the weight until you get form down.....perhaps adding in some hyperextensions to strengthen your lower back will help as well........i have found that trainers at most gyms give notoriously bad advice on exercise form/execution......that old saying "those who can't.....teach".....imo the deadlift is up there with the squat as the king of all movements...when you have mastered it and can move the shit-heavy weight you will be a big mofo.......

[Baconbits]

Mike Mentzer Teaches the Dead Lift

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WyF--C0r8PI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WyF--C0r8PI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Gettin'r'round]

pfffft. 3 plates and he's dying? Still nice form. Anything above 3 plates and I cannot help but start the lift with the low back. Have to work on that..

I used to dl with a hex bar and got up to 465 for singles (post cycle too!). Problem is the arm position is not natural and I ****ed myself up real good. Was off for years with chronic tendonitis that nobody could fix. My spine/upper back was messed up cutting the nerve supply to my arms. Finally got fixed but my body keeps going back to the ****ed up way. Necessitating constant trips back to the chiro....

Don't dl with this bar!
http://di1.shopping.com/images/pi/90/c4/b3/32943242-177x150-0-0.jpg

[Josh]

Great video. Here's hoping I can get to 1 plate soon, haha :)

[Josh]

hey, just wanted to give everyone an update on yesterday's deadlifts. I stuck with the 35 lb plates instead of dropping some off, and it felt so much better this time. my lower back wasn't rounding, and I'm not in pain today. I am going to try with some heavier weight next week!

[Amoral]

Good job bro! 5-10 lbs a week addition is great! Keep a log if you can, too. That will help immensely with weight increase on all exercises.

[AlladdinSane]

I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents.

Keep the weight heavy. Do less reps. Do more sets. Form for the DL breaks down as the SET goes on, not the workout (typically).

Example: 10sets x 2reps x 135lbs > 5sets x 4reps x 115lbs

Not only will your workload be overall higher (leading to more strength), but your nervous system will be getting a sick workout too (leading to more power). And let's not forget that it's safer because your form will not be breaking down during the extended sets.

[Free]

U should use a weight that allows you to lift beetwing 8 and 12 reps. in 3 or 4 sets, when U start to feel confortable, add more weight.. you should train one body part per day... one or twice a week...

[AlladdinSane]

^^^ Terrible advice.

Another 2 cents.

[Ritch]

I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents.

Keep the weight heavy. Do less reps. Do more sets. Form for the DL breaks down as the SET goes on, not the workout (typically).

Example: 10sets x 2reps x 135lbs > 5sets x 4reps x 115lbs

Not only will your workload be overall higher (leading to more strength), but your nervous system will be getting a sick workout too (leading to more power). And let's not forget that it's safer because your form will not be breaking down during the extended sets.


I know what you`re saying here and it`s not bad advice. However I`d never advocate a beginer maxin` out when they have yet to perfect the movement. I mean he`ll be making strength gains for a long time in the 8-12 rep range before needing to train in such low reps. Good advice you`ve given here, I just don`t think he`s ready for it yet.

[tex]

I know what you`re saying here and it`s not bad advice. However I`d never advocate a beginer maxin` out when they have yet to perfect the movement. I mean he`ll be making strength gains for a long time in the 8-12 rep range before needing to train in such low reps. Good advice you`ve given here, I just don`t think he`s ready for it yet.

x2.....beginner needs to work on form......good advice for most ppl tho.....

[AlladdinSane]

But, as I said, deadlift form breaks down through longer sets. You want him to learn form? You get him executing the lift from a dead stop more times in a workout.

[Josh]

My form feels good, and my room mate / workout partner says it looks good. I have been aiming for sets of 5, and each individual lift is done from a dead stop. I pause for a second or so with the weight on the floor before starting the next rep. I think I am going to go for the 45 lb plates on Monday. Wish me luck!

[Ritch]

But, as I said, deadlift form breaks down through longer sets. You want him to learn form? You get him executing the lift from a dead stop more times in a workout.

For sure starting from a dead stop is a good idea, at what intensity % wise are you talking here performing 2 reps?

The point you make about the form going to shits as the set goes on I see as being true overall. At what point do you typically see this happening? After 5 reps? Maybe there are some weak links in the body that can be done to keep the movement in check. I`m not a kin expert here so I can`t say. But do think if one movement should have top form from begining to end it`s the almighty deadlift.

[AlladdinSane]

&#37; wise? Well I was talking pretty high, but if we're gearing this for beginners and we're "easing him in" so-to-speak, it could be done at any percentage that is comfortable.

I see form break after 1-2 with myself. (I lift relatively heavy, though.) Most people I see DL, their form breaks anywhere from 3-5 unless they're pulling with an utterly useless amount of weight.

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE=Baconbits;65155]Mike Mentzer Teaches the Dead Lift

Wow, not what you want to watch if you are trying to learn the deadlift. Horrible form, arms too wide, butt way too low, back too arched, too deep in a squat, and hes tryin tot squat the weight up. Sorry but this is possiblythe worst technique and also what most novces try to do. As most people have been told before lift with the legs not the back...well when it comes to deads throw that BS out the window. The dead is a back lift and you cannot pull with any significant power if you lift with a arched back and from a squat. You want to learn how to dead lift go to www.westside-barbell.com
P

[Praetorian]

But, as I said, deadlift form breaks down through longer sets. You want him to learn form? You get him executing the lift from a dead stop more times in a workout.

They are called full resets...and it is wise to train with them..good point!
P

[AlladdinSane]

"Mike Mentzer Teaches the Dead Lift"

Wow, not what you want to watch if you are trying to learn the deadlift. Horrible form, arms too wide, butt way too low, back too arched, too deep in a squat, and hes tryin tot squat the weight up. Sorry but this is possiblythe worst technique and also what most novces try to do. As most people have been told before lift with the legs not the back...well when it comes to deads throw that BS out the window. The dead is a back lift and you cannot pull with any significant power if you lift with a arched back and from a squat. You want to learn how to dead lift go to www.westside-barbell.com
P

:)


I like you.

[AlladdinSane]

They are called full resets...and it is wise to train with them..good point!
P

A lot.

[Ritch]

% wise? Well I was talking pretty high, but if we're gearing this for beginners and we're "easing him in" so-to-speak, it could be done at any percentage that is comfortable.

I see form break after 1-2 with myself. (I lift relatively heavy, though.) Most people I see DL, their form breaks anywhere from 3-5 unless they're pulling with an utterly useless amount of weight.


I just feel there is something wrong with this. I mean alot of people get good results in the deadlift doing more reps. It just seems wrong to say the only way of to do deadlifts is in the 1-5 range. It`s like your saying people will develop problems from going above the rep range you say and that is just not so. Doing deadlifts in the higher range definetly has it`s merits. It`s called variance.

[AlladdinSane]

I just feel there is something wrong with this.

I mean alot of people get good results in the deadlift doing more reps.

It just seems wrong to say the only way of to do deadlifts is in the 1-5 range.

It`s like your saying people will develop problems from going above the rep range you say and that is just not so.

Doing deadlifts in the higher range definetly has it`s merits. It`s called variance.

Firstly, we should should settle on a definition for "good results". I have a feeling we have different ideas on what this means.

It's definitely not the only way.

I'm saying people will be much more prone to develop problems, not that they absolutely will.

Sure it has merits... if you're interested in pulling light weight for many reps (which is okay if that's your goal). Kinda like how a marathon runner can run a better marathon than a sprinter (surprise,surprise) but only because the sprinter doesn't care to run a marathon. They both run, but someone interested in running the 100 in less than 10 seconds would never be caught "marathon training", not even for the "variance" it may offer because ultimately it would not be beneficial... again bringing us back to finding a common definition for "good results".

[Ritch]

Firstly, we should should settle on a definition for "good results". I have a feeling we have different ideas on what this means.

It's definitely not the only way.

I'm saying people will be much more prone to develop problems, not that they absolutely will.

Sure it has merits... if you're interested in pulling light weight for many reps (which is okay if that's your goal). Kinda like how a marathon runner can run a better marathon than a sprinter (surprise,surprise) but only because the sprinter doesn't care to run a marathon. They both run, but someone interested in running the 100 in less than 10 seconds would never be caught "marathon training", not even for the "variance" it may offer because ultimately it would not be beneficial... again bringing us back to finding a common definition for "good results".

Now you`re comparing my recommendations with marrathon runners. No offense but you take this way to the extreme. Because of a hip injury deadlits are a no-no for me now but did pull a max of 5 plates and a 5kg per side. If that`s not enough to be considered "good results" then I guess I`m just not good enough and frankly don`t care because that amount of weight is rarely seen, and did it natural.

Actually our recommendations are not that far off. I`d wouldn`t really go higher than 8 reps and you`re saying 5. To me that`s close enough and not worth arguing about. Still friends?

[Josh]

Hey! Just wanted to update everyone again.

Last week, I did my dead lifts with the 35 lb plates for 115 lb overall with the bar. Yesterday, I did a warm up set with the 35s, then did a set with 40, then 4 more sets with the 45s (finally!), and then 1 last set with 50 for 145 lb overall which is about 3 lb more than I weigh! Sets were all 5 reps. I really appreciate all the advice you guys have given. Without the amount of attention you've given this thread, it's been a constant reminder of how important these are.

[Ritch]

Hey! Just wanted to update everyone again.

Last week, I did my dead lifts with the 35 lb plates for 115 lb overall with the bar. Yesterday, I did a warm up set with the 35s, then did a set with 40, then 4 more sets with the 45s (finally!), and then 1 last set with 50 for 145 lb overall which is about 3 lb more than I weigh! Sets were all 5 reps. I really appreciate all the advice you guys have given. Without the amount of attention you've given this thread, it's been a constant reminder of how important these are.

Good job man! I remember when I first hit a 45 each side. I`m positive that you`ll keep making nice increases for some time to come. Keep it up!

[AlladdinSane]

Ditto. Great job!

And Ritch... Of course we're still friends. Just good ol' fashioned discussion ;)

...and yeah, I tend to be pretty extreme lol.

FWIW, Good pull. Just out of curiosity, did you pull it for 8 reps or just 1?

[Ritch]

Ditto. Great job!

And Ritch... Of course we're still friends. Just good ol' fashioned discussion ;)

...and yeah, I tend to be pretty extreme lol.

FWIW, Good pull. Just out of curiosity, did you pull it for 8 reps or just 1?

Did a max of two reps with 5 plates and a 5 kg. To get 8 reps I would have dropped the weight down quite a bit I`m guessing 4 1/2 plates max. I say that because I could squat 4 plates and a 5 kg for 6 reps and my deadlift was always stronger. This was about 10 years ago. For now my squat is getting back up, but can`t do deadlifts which I really miss. Hopefully I will find someone to fix my hip problem. I`ve already spent 5 grand (no insurance) in the process... One day though I will hit 8 reps with my old max weight, funny I never thought about that until now, glad we had this discussion!

[AlladdinSane]

Have you tried an ART guy? My hip/low back was destroyed for a bit but my ART guy was able to fix me up and get me to a point where I could rehab myself.

[ironwill]

I also rehab myself:ji...:sexy....if thats what you call it....

[AlladdinSane]

hehehe...

Kissy, kissy...

[Ritch]

Have you tried an ART guy? My hip/low back was destroyed for a bit but my ART guy was able to fix me up and get me to a point where I could rehab myself.

The First treatment I seeked was an art guy, I forget how many seesions I gave him but felt no difference. I`m guessing at least 5. And the exerciese recommendations he gave me made the pain 10x worse. Not very pleased by that.

Then osteopath, saw him for 8 months and did nothing. For the first while it was twice a week, then once, I fianally gave up on him, lots of cash spent on him...

Then accupunture for 12 visits ( another $600 down the drain)

Tried another Art guy for about 5 visits and felt absolutely nothing had his partner do a special stretching program for me as well. The strecthes caused real bad pain, and he couldn`t give me any answers.

Then chiro for over a year (1500 down the drain) During his treatments, I was able to resume leg training ( had taken 1 1/2 years off from it) that really sucked... But no sqating then, hip and glute could not take it.

Spent about $500 getting massage work from the chiro`s partner and nothing

Then saw another chiro for a couple of months, good guy, but no results

then I was going around seeing all kinds of "healers" went through some extremely painful manipulations where you`d be sweting like a whore in church on sunday and when you got home you`d nearly pass out for 2 hours. Once while going home I nearly got hit by a car because I walked through a red light! That`s how dazed I was!

I got a foam roller and used it off and on. This summer I went hardcore and was spending 1-3 hours day on leg and glute work for a couple of weeks helpled things are better that`s why I`m squating again and there`s hardly any pain in the groin area while I do so. The foam roller work was very painful and sweated alot in the process and man did I feel tired after...

Now I`m trying to save up to see another "healer" with a big time fee and only works on you if you have some very specific references which I have. Talked to him this summer was supposed to get it done, but he had to leave the area for a while. No clue why. Apparently my neck, shoulder and hip need to be fixed, will take 2 hours to do so, then 2 weeks where you don`t lift jack shit. Then on the road to deadlifting 5 plates 8 times. That`s my story...

[spankmonkey]

The First treatment I seeked was an art guy, I forget how many seesions I gave him but felt no difference. I`m guessing at least 5. And the exerciese recommendations he gave me made the pain 10x worse. Not very pleased by that.

Then osteopath, saw him for 8 months and did nothing. For the first while it was twice a week, then once, I fianally gave up on him, lots of cash spent on him...

Then accupunture for 12 visits ( another $600 down the drain)

Tried another Art guy for about 5 visits and felt absolutely nothing had his partner do a special stretching program for me as well. The strecthes caused real bad pain, and he couldn`t give me any answers.

Then chiro for over a year (1500 down the drain) During his treatments, I was able to resume leg training ( had taken 1 1/2 years off from it) that really sucked... But no sqating then, hip and glute could not take it.

Spent about $500 getting massage work from the chiro`s partner and nothing

Then saw another chiro for a couple of months, good guy, but no results

then I was going around seeing all kinds of "healers" went through some extremely painful manipulations where you`d be sweting like a whore in church on sunday and when you got home you`d nearly pass out for 2 hours. Once while going home I nearly got hit by a car because I walked through a red light! That`s how dazed I was!

I got a foam roller and used it off and on. This summer I went hardcore and was spending 1-3 hours day on leg and glute work for a couple of weeks helpled things are better that`s why I`m squating again and there`s hardly any pain in the groin area while I do so. The foam roller work was very painful and sweated alot in the process and man did I feel tired after...

Now I`m trying to save up to see another "healer" with a big time fee and only works on you if you have some very specific references which I have. Talked to him this summer was supposed to get it done, but he had to leave the area for a while. No clue why. Apparently my neck, shoulder and hip need to be fixed, will take 2 hours to do so, then 2 weeks where you don`t lift jack shit. Then on the road to deadlifting 5 plates 8 times. That`s my story...

look up ONSEN or LENSEN and you will be ok

[Ritch]

Hey spankmonkey I googled onsen and can`t seem to find anything related to Montreal. I saw a video of one and really seems nice. Gotta say I`d have viagra like effects if I were to go to one with those hot japaneese women walking around naked... Since I can`t afford a trip to Japan I guess I`m outta luck! I will keep an eye out for it though. Maybe in one of those sophisticated bath oil stores they would have something with a similar effect. Thanks for the suggestion.

[spankmonkey]

Although the Japanese version of ONSEN would be awesome here is a link which deals with pain and structural/muscular issues.

http://onsentherapy.com/