Is it better to be lean or have a bit of body fat prior to cycle?

[kloan]

Or does it matter much?

I'm not sure what my BF% is, but I do have a bit of extra fat in my mid section... I haven't done any cutting yet in the entire off and on time I've been working out because I've always thought it's better to get to a good size before cutting, and well, I've never gotten to a point where I thought I was big enough to do it.

What is the max BF% someone should be if they're considering doing a cycle? Other than not being able to see the definition in some areas, is that the only risk, or are there actual complications that can transpire from cycling with a moderate BF%?

My plan is/was to bulk up to a nice big size (currently at 170+/-, 5'7" - goal is 190+/-) and then do a cutting cycle before spring.

[Redz]

lean is better!

[Gettin'r'round]

I'll go with lean. Halfway into my last pre-vacation dieting I did some primo/winny/anavar and in 1 week I gained 8lbs of muscle I'd lost due to cutting cal's too low to fast. Sweeet.

[Big D]

keep you bf at a regular level like around 12%, if you wanna bulk,
your just gona waste your money if your gonna try to stay lean and bulk at the same time. its one or the other

[kloan]

Yeah, but what I'm wondering is if I can still bulk on cycle with my bf around I dunno... just guessing here, but 16% or more? I just don't want to cut yet, because I'll lose muscle, and I'm not at the point where I'm big enough yet for that.

I guess another part of me is reluctant because I've never done it and don't know how... cardio is always a trouble area for me... I really gotta get back into a gym!!

[AlbertaBeef]

Depending on your goals going into a cycle leaner is better. I have read elsewhere the standard is below 15% BF give or take. I think reason is you're going to put on fat most likely while on and then when you cut you're going to lose muscle so if you have a high BF to begin with the amount of muscle loss to attain your goal would diminish your cycle gains.

That being said with proper diet and discipline what I just said is all garbage but get regurgitated over and over on other forums.

[kloan]

How does one calculate body fat %? Is it with that metal grippy thingy?


EDIT: found this calculator online...
http://www.bmi-calculator.net/body-fat-calculator/

According to this I have 12.18%

I'm not sure how accurate that is. I put in:

Weight: 168
Waist: 31" (<- I think I got this one wrong.. where should I measure from? I just put in pant size... lol)
Wrist: 7"
Hips: 34" (<- this one I wasn't sure where to measure.. I did hip bones)
Forearm: 12"

Even if this is off, I'm probably not as high as I thought.. aside from love handles, a tiny gut and a bit of fat on my chest, I'm actually pretty lean.. arms/shoulders/legs.

I think I'm probably ok. I mean, I could certainly lose a few lbs, but I really would prefer to bulk a lot more before I bother to go through all that work to lose the fat.

EDIT 2: did another calculator, it came closer to 20%...

[L3]

-yah calipers are best choice
- the electronic bf measurer you hold out with your hands is very very innacurate
-the weight scales with built in bf measurement very innacurate too, it was telling me 28&#37; when i had veins running up my stomach
-most accurate is professionaly done you go into a tub of water and they measure it dunno exact process

in the end, measure with calipers

[AlbertaBeef]

Rule of thumb, If you can't see your abs....You're too fat!!
Pretty simple

[theboss]

Rule of thumb, If you can't see your abs....You're too fat!!
Pretty simple

is that if you are trying to flex them or not ??

[kloan]

Rule of thumb, If you can't see your abs....You're too fat!!
Pretty simple

lol.. ok, then i am.

[L3]

why dont you add some var to the latter part of your cycle it will lean you out
you might as well do 2 weeks on clen (with reduced carb intake at night) at the end too before pct

[RagingRandy]

How does one calculate body fat %? Is it with that metal grippy thingy?


EDIT: found this calculator online...
http://www.bmi-calculator.net/body-fat-calculator/

According to this I have 12.18%

I'm not sure how accurate that is. I put in:

Weight: 168
Waist: 31" (<- I think I got this one wrong.. where should I measure from? I just put in pant size... lol)
Wrist: 7"
Hips: 34" (<- this one I wasn't sure where to measure.. I did hip bones)
Forearm: 12"

Even if this is off, I'm probably not as high as I thought.. aside from love handles, a tiny gut and a bit of fat on my chest, I'm actually pretty lean.. arms/shoulders/legs.

I think I'm probably ok. I mean, I could certainly lose a few lbs, but I really would prefer to bulk a lot more before I bother to go through all that work to lose the fat.

EDIT 2: did another calculator, it came closer to 20%...

For male you only need waist measurement which is at the navel. I am the same;my bf% is higher than I want it to be. I figured it was best to bulk and then worry about the cutting at the end as opposed to cutting-bulking-cutting. The extra muscle will help with the cutting. I have been told the estrogen sides are more likely when your bf% is high. I take .625mg (1/4 tab) a day of letro. If I don't my nipples get itchy.

[kloan]

Thanks, that's what I was wondering about bf and cycles.. I think I am gyno prone, still have a little bit that never went away when I used to work out in my teens.. Actually I'm still pissed about that. I got scans and was told it wasn't when I knew damn well it was.

Ok, so I'll add letro to my cycle, if I can't find it I won't do the cycle. I want to be sure I have everythin I need before I commit.

Legaliz3, you think adding those as a first timer would be ok?

[tex]

it might not be gyno....you said you are chubbers....only way to find out is to diet down.....i hold fat in the moob area....but i got down to below 5&#37; last year and it was non existant....it shows up when im about 10%......"pseudo-gyno" is the term.....

[pcruiser73]

The best way to do it is to lose the fat before the cycle. You would diet down almost like a precontest(not as intense) using a ketonic diet. High protien and fat and low- no carbs. This way you will not loose any muscle, only fat. Then when you are lean enough you introduce carbs again and your body will rebound and go into a growing phase. This is when you add the anabolics. You will be suprised how good this works. Actually if you talk with professional BBrs they will tell you the best gains they make are the 3-4 weeks right after a show.

[tex]

its called priming......when you add in the juice, add in your carbs......

[gsxr750]

I'm doing that now. I'm Keto, low dose test ( HRT ), and dropping fat pretty quick. Hopefully I can get down to 15&#37; quick enough to run a real cycle, in time for a cutter before summer.

I heard the same, higher BF = likely more estro sides. But it would be nice to have some extra muscle to make this cutting easier :(

[pcruiser73]

I'm doing that now. I'm Keto, low dose test ( HRT ), and dropping fat pretty quick. Hopefully I can get down to 15% quick enough to run a real cycle, in time for a cutter before summer.

I heard the same, higher BF = likely more estro sides. But it would be nice to have some extra muscle to make this cutting easier :(

I am doing this currently as well. I have come down to 8% and will continue for another 2 weeks. Then I will do 2 short bulking blitz cycles before my pre-contest cycle for a June competition. So far it has worked very well.
Doing it this way your BF should not raise high enough to be a real burden to strip off.

[canadianmuscle0803]

leaner.. and on a low cal diet.. look into something called "Priming" i cant seem to find the write up on it right now.. but your body responds much better when your in this state..

[pcruiser73]

here you go:
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=3003

[kloan]

here you go:
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=3003

Bookmarked, thanks. :)

[L3]

Legaliz3, you think adding those as a first timer would be ok?

dunno what your cycle is but you can run clen on or off cycle, but only for 2 weeks at a time in a pyramid dosing scheme

a lot of ppl will say stick with 1 compound your first cycle, ie test e only, but really its up to you, i ran 3 compounds + clen my first cycle and i loved the results... just be ready for when you come off..remember ITS ALL IN YOUR HEAD

good luck bro

[kloan]

..remember ITS ALL IN YOUR HEAD



i know this all too well.. though it is actual imbalances that cause those feelings, but i hear what yer sayin.

---

i'm seriously starting to consider this 'priming' thing now... it'll take a LOT of discipline for me, since i hate cardio.. and i gotta learn more about supersets, but it is looking like a possibility. if i start next week, by the time i'm finished the priming, i should be all set to cycle.

tempting...

[Houstonbc]

a lot of ppl will say stick with 1 compound your first cycle, ie test e only, but really its up to you, i ran 3 compounds + clen my first cycle and i loved the results... just be ready for when you come off..remember ITS ALL IN YOUR HEAD

dude no offense but if i remember correctly you ran 3 orals for your 1st cycle which imo is not a good idea for your 1st cycle or ever.

first cycle test e or c 500mgs/wk split in two shots ran for 12 weeks is plenty

[giannos]

I'd say the leaner the better. I did my first cycle at about 15% and stored more bodyfat than I would have liked. Higher BF=more estrogen =more fat storage...

[canadianmuscle0803]

I'd say the leaner the better. I did my first cycle at about 15% and stored more bodyfat than I would have liked. Higher BF=more estrogen =more fat storage...

dont forget,, estrogen plays a role in muscle growth as well.. and someone with that body type (mesomorph) needs to keep that in check with a good diet and cardio.. but in the long run that man will grow at a faster rate due to his insulin response.. i know this because im one of em :)

[giannos]

Oh for sure, you need estrogen, just gotta keep it in check. When I had too much BF and did a Test/ Dbol cycle, I aromatized allot more than if I would have been at at say 12%...

[fathead]

there is no advantage of being fatter. plain and simple....

and more inportantly if your 168 lbs and arent 5' tall you shouldnt be doing a cycle anyways

[Amorphic]

there is no advantage of being fatter. plain and simple....

and more inportantly if your 168 lbs and arent 5' tall you shouldnt be doing a cycle anyways

agreed. i made the mistake of letting my bodyfat get around 15% and i'll never do that again

[kloan]

there is no advantage of being fatter. plain and simple....

and more inportantly if your 168 lbs and arent 5' tall you shouldnt be doing a cycle anyways

im 5' 7"

[fathead]

im 5' 7"

im assuming youre here looking for advice, so ill give you some. if you dont like it then fine, but here it is.... take no offense to it please

at 5'7'' 168lbs you are nowhere near ready for steroids (unless you are a lower limb amputee)

spend the time/money on food and someone to train you or design a training/diet system for you to follow.
where youre at you should be trying to gain as much lean mass as you can naturally. ie- try and put on 30 lbs and decrease youre body fat. this will take time, dont get me wrong, but steroids arent going to do it for you man.

youre goal i think you mentioned was 190ish lbs.... thats very attainable naturally. im 5'9 and didnt touch sauce until i was well over 200lbs and still realistically wasnt ready.

good luck man

[kloan]

I hear what you're saying, however I'm not planning on getting super big. I'd like to remain proportional to my height. I realize a lot of guys use the juice to push past their genetic potential, but that's not what I'm looking to do.

I know I can reach my preferred size naturally if I work hard for the next two years. But like many guys, I don't want to wait that long. If I hadn't stopped working out when I did, I would be at my preferred size. But I did, so I'm at the point now where I'd like to speed things up.

Like I've said before, I want to get to a good size so I can trim down and still be big. If I do that naturally, it's going to be a while before I get there... and well, honestly I'm too impatient for that now.

At this point, it's either do the priming and do a cycle or do a cycle then cut. But at this point not doing a cycle isn't something I'm willing to consider. I'm pretty hell bent on doing it.. once I get something in my head, I don't stop til I get it done.

[fathead]

I hear what you're saying, however I'm not planning on getting super big. I'd like to remain proportional to my height. I realize a lot of guys use the juice to push past their genetic potential, but that's not what I'm looking to do.

I know I can reach my preferred size naturally if I work hard for the next two years. But like many guys, I don't want to wait that long. If I hadn't stopped working out when I did, I would be at my preferred size. But I did, so I'm at the point now where I'd like to speed things up.

Like I've said before, I want to get to a good size so I can trim down and still be big. If I do that naturally, it's going to be a while before I get there... and well, honestly I'm too impatient for that now.

At this point, it's either do the priming and do a cycle or do a cycle then cut. But at this point not doing a cycle isn't something I'm willing to consider. I'm pretty hell bent on doing it.. once I get something in my head, I don't stop til I get it done.


re-read what you just wrote and then think about it for a while. it is completely foolish and im now more sure than ever your 5'7, 168 and 18 yrs old.

that being said, if youre going to go down the wrong path, go down it the right way. drop your bf to 10-12% and then do 500mg test fo 12 wks. you will gain the weight you want, and then lose it all.
have fun

[kloan]

Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from.

I've looked at tons of cycle logs, plenty of before & after pics, 6 month or more follow ups, and have seen plenty of examples to support my conclusions. There are tons of guys smaller than me who have done successful cycles and kept most of the weight they gained. Why are you so sure I would be different? Because I'm asking lots of questions?

I don't see how you can assume I'm going to "lose it all". You know nothing about me, my workout history, my current regimen, diet or anything else.

It's not like I'm some skinny/fat guy who's never had any training experience and just suddenly got up off the couch and decided to juice, get big then stop and go back to the couch. I'm going to keep working out, eating right, etc.

Why does anybody do it? To get bigger faster. Or to go beyond their genetic potential. What I'm seeking to do is absolutely no different.

[tex]

leaner.. and on a low cal diet.. look into something called "Priming" i cant seem to find the write up on it right now.. but your body responds much better when your in this state.. im late on this response but heres a link...
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=3003

[tex]

listen to fathead...he knows what he is talking about.....well unless you just have the shittiest genetics ever.......i just did my 1st cycle....but in the year prior to it I put on 50lbs naturally!! and I kept my bf at or below 12%......red meat, chicken, rice........eat a shitload of it......


Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from.

I've looked at tons of cycle logs, plenty of before & after pics, 6 month or more follow ups, and have seen plenty of examples to support my conclusions. There are tons of guys smaller than me who have done successful cycles and kept most of the weight they gained. Why are you so sure I would be different? Because I'm asking lots of questions?

I don't see how you can assume I'm going to "lose it all". You know nothing about me, my workout history, my current regimen, diet or anything else.

It's not like I'm some skinny/fat guy who's never had any training experience and just suddenly got up off the couch and decided to juice, get big then stop and go back to the couch. I'm going to keep working out, eating right, etc.

Why does anybody do it? To get bigger faster. Or to go beyond their genetic potential. What I'm seeking to do is absolutely no different.

[kloan]

im late on this response but heres a link...
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=3003

heh, thanks man.. already bookmarked from page 3 :)

[kloan]

listen to fathead...he knows what he is talking about.....well unless you just have the shittiest genetics ever.......i just did my 1st cycle....but in the year prior to it I put on 50lbs naturally!! and I kept my bf at or below 12%......red meat, chicken, rice........eat a shitload of it......
Since picking it back up 6 months ago, I have put on considerable size.. I tend to gain muscle pretty quickly. However, I still think it would take at least a year or more to get to a size I'd be happy with.. I'm pushing 30 and yeah I'm impatient and want to get ripped by next spring.

F*** it, whatever.. I'm curious.. if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.. no harm no foul.. another one of life's little lessons. People tend to want experience things for themselves instead of taking other people's word for it. That's human nature.

I have a feeling I'll do just fine.

[fathead]

where im coming from id that if you cant get over 168 with diet and training you wont be able to maintain any of it afterwards. i know enough about your diet and training history to know you dont know what your doing.


Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from.

I've looked at tons of cycle logs, plenty of before & after pics, 6 month or more follow ups, and have seen plenty of examples to support my conclusions. There are tons of guys smaller than me who have done successful cycles and kept most of the weight they gained. Why are you so sure I would be different? Because I'm asking lots of questions?

I don't see how you can assume I'm going to "lose it all". You know nothing about me, my workout history, my current regimen, diet or anything else.

It's not like I'm some skinny/fat guy who's never had any training experience and just suddenly got up off the couch and decided to juice, get big then stop and go back to the couch. I'm going to keep working out, eating right, etc.

Why does anybody do it? To get bigger faster. Or to go beyond their genetic potential. What I'm seeking to do is absolutely no different.

[kloan]

where im coming from id that if you cant get over 168 with diet and training you wont be able to maintain any of it afterwards. i know enough about your diet and training history to know you dont know what your doing.

No offense man, but you don't know s*** about me. I never said I can't get over 168, so I don't know where you came up with that idea. That's what I weighed last time I checked. That's up from 152 5 months ago. I haven't weighed myself recently, so I'm probably over 170 by now.

It's an eery feeling.. someone knowing about my diet and training history when I've never even posted it... I feel like I'm being watched....

By all means though, flame on...

[pcruiser73]

Kloan, read this thread. It is very long and will probably take you a few days to read, but you will get so much proper info that you can make your own decisions. This guy really knows his shit. I have been following his advice for a couple months now and my physique has transformed alot, with no drugs yet. You can thank me later :)
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=23539

[tex]

Since picking it back up 6 months ago, I have put on considerable size.. I tend to gain muscle pretty quickly. However, I still think it would take at least a year or more to get to a size I'd be happy with.. I'm pushing 30 and yeah I'm impatient and want to get ripped by next spring.

F*** it, whatever.. I'm curious.. if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.. no harm no foul.. another one of life's little lessons. People tend to want experience things for themselves instead of taking other people's word for it. That's human nature.

I have a feeling I'll do just fine.


then dont hop on the boards looking for "advice". seems to me you are just looking for someone to tell you that its great and to go ahead. I'm over 30 and I did it natty......if you dont have to dedication to reach a certian level naturally, whats to say that juicing will ? it's definately not a magic pill that will cure a poor diet/training.......you are gonna do it anyways....so do it.....but dont come back bitching and whining when you are 190 and 20% + and your blood pressure is jacked all to hell.....

[kloan]

then dont hop on the boards looking for "advice". seems to me you are just looking for someone to tell you that its great and to go ahead. I'm over 30 and I did it natty......if you dont have to dedication to reach a certian level naturally, whats to say that juicing will ? it's definately not a magic pill that will cure a poor diet/training.......you are gonna do it anyways....so do it.....but dont come back bitching and whining when you are 190 and 20&#37; + and your blood pressure is jacked all to hell.....
I don't have a problem with people offering advice. Telling me I'm not ready without substantiated reasons, telling me I sound like an 18 year old, assuming I'm stuck at my current weight, and concluding I don't know what I'm doing is not advice.

I'm well aware of what it takes to hold onto gains, and I feel I am fully capable of achieving it. Just because I want to speed things along doesn't necessarily mean I'm incapable of doing it on my own without the help of aas. Besides, I'm not even doing it yet.. don't even have the kit. I'm still reading, learning, etc.. and waiting to get my blood work done to see where my test level is at. I have to make sure once I'm done the cycle and have done the PCT that my test levels can support the gains. Once that's in check, I'm good to go.

pcruiser73, thanks for the link.. I'm gonna read all 310 pages.

[fathead]

you state you are 5'7 and 168lbs. this leads me to beleive you dont know too much about diet or training, or at least you dont follow this knowledge you have, because if you did, you wouldnt be 168lbs at an undesirable body fat %.

you state right in your posts that
a) you dont want to be really big
b) you can put on lean mass rather quickly

so.... what the hell are you planning on using steroids for?

using potentially dangerous drugs/drugs that can cause side effects is not a very good idea for someone who doesnt even want to be at their genetic potential when its all said and done... especially if youre stating you can get there easily without aas.

you dont want to wait "a year" to get to your goals.... good luck with that sort of attitude in this game bro.

all the best. im done. bu-bye

[kloan]

you state you are 5'7 and 168lbs. this leads me to beleive you dont know too much about diet or training, or at least you dont follow this knowledge you have, because if you did, you wouldnt be 168lbs at an undesirable body fat &#37;.

you state right in your posts that
a) you dont want to be really big
b) you can put on lean mass rather quickly

so.... what the hell are you planning on using steroids for?

using potentially dangerous drugs/drugs that can cause side effects is not a very good idea for someone who doesnt even want to be at their genetic potential when its all said and done... especially if youre stating you can get there easily without aas.

you dont want to wait "a year" to get to your goals.... good luck with that sort of attitude in this game bro.

all the best. im done. bu-bye
Alright, I see what you're saying. Yeah I have the knowledge, but as I've said before, I just got back into it recently. The fat I have is fat that accumulated in the 2+ years not working out. My dilemma has been whether or not to shed the fat before cycle. The weight I've gained since starting up again has been mostly LMM. I'm only working out in my apartment, so before I do consider doing a cycle I'm going to get back into a gym where I have all the right equipment, and can do proper cardio.

When I said I didn't want to be super big, I meant as in a pro body builder. I do want to look big, I guess we all have different ideas of what big is. For me, I want to look noticeably big, just not monstrously big. It's not like I look skinny now, many people in my life have commented how much larger I look to just a few months ago. And not fat either.

I can put on the muscle rather quickly, but that's comparatively. As in, I was referring to that in my own mind comparing to my friends when they were working out with me. I got bigger/stronger, faster than they did. So that's what I meant by pretty quickly. However, it would still take me quite a while to reach a certain size naturally. Yes, I'd like a boost.. but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to work hard before, during and well after to maintain those gains. This is a life long commitment, and I fully intend on continuing the hard work.

You and I have completely different understandings of what the intended or proper use of AAS is. That's fine. But I've seen plenty of other guys just like me who've done a simple Test 500mg/wk for their first cycle, with zero problems keeping those gains.

That said, let's agree to disagree.