Reasonable Expectations

[tiramisu]

I'm trying to establish an effective linear program for the next 12 weeks.
and could use some quality feedback from those of you who have been there.

Current novice to advanced novice in strength. My squats and deads are strong but my shoulder has been slowing my pressing progress.
sq 290 // dead 315 // bench 165 at a 225 body weight
~5k calories day at the moment.

First Cycle 600 mg / wk test with .25 mg adex eod
I realize reducing bloat will also reduce strength increase but not sure how much.

Is it safe to assume a 25% strength increase over the next 12 week period for the purpose of establishing my program. More/Less?
I don't want to be too optimistic and stall but I don't want to waste my time and not increase fast enough either.

Thanks,
Robert

[jethro1984]

that is a high squat and dead compared to your bench. Are your squats done ATG?

Either way, nobody can really answer this for you. Too many factors and everyone responds differently, based on experience, compounds, and ability to push themselves hard.

.25mg Adex EOD will not be enough to inhibit your strenght gains. It will control estrogen for you, but its a very low dosage so it shouldn't affect much in terms of gains. 600mg is a little high for first cycle as well..try 350-500 and see what happens. Remember, naturally you probably produce around 70mg a week, so even at 350 your levels are well above natural

[tiramisu]

Yes my squats are ass to the grass thanks. My form is good and I've pretty much memorized Starting Strength and Practical Programming.

It's not that my pulling is strong.
It's that my pushing is weak.

I'm comfortable w/ 600 mg at 225 pounds and have nolva/adex on hand (but thanks for the concern)

There are quite a few studies at this dosage and if you are willing to assume an average male homo sapien as opposed to a genetic freak or a bulemic I would guess that the range of responses isn't nearly as broad or undefinable as you suggest.

Effects of Testosterone and Resistance Training in Men with Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/170/8/870)

What I find very interesting in this study is the lack of difference between the effects of training and not training on body composition.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/6/E1172?ijkey=d5069b5f46c2444ed4415cd504c07920edb680 69&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

I'm sure someone here has read this or similar studies.

It boggles my mind why a study would hold calories constant in a study to see what the effects of testosterone are based on dosage.

Nonetheless I'm fairly sure that this is a fairly answerable question for those who have done more studying on pubmed than I and I'm hoping one or two of them/you read this forum.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Link&db=pubmed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=11701431

Thanks again.

[jethro1984]

I don't know why you came back with the attitude, but it wasn't really necessary. I wasn't trying to be a dick about your squats or anything, just trying to get a feel for where you stand.

And as for your dosage, 600mg a week is a waste for a first time user, you would get the same gains off 500, if not less. You are just wasting gear, and increasing chance for side effects.

and NOBODY can tell you how much your strength will increase, like I said before, theres too many factors. But if you want an answer, fine...based on your weight and dosage I suspect you will increase strenght by 17.6%:)

Stop worrying about it so much, and train hard, eat right and let the steroids do their work. See for yourself how much you will gain. Only way to know for sure is to experiment

[pcruiser73]

First make sure your diet it right, most important. For first time use 500mg a week and do not use an AI unless you are prone to gyno or develop symptoms of it. Your estrogen levels will generally be fine on anything under a gram of test a week. Gyno prone people being the exception.

[spankmonkey]

Well I will say this about your request for linear program over the next 12 weeks with estimated gains. WHY!! What is the point? Do you hope to estimate what you will squat/bench etc. over the next 12 weeks, so you can graph it and hang it up?

I am being a bit sarcastic for a reason. The studies you posted are based on different objectives than you may be interested. All studies as it relates to test have to do with dysfunction of some sort and how to possibly counter it. The motivation of the subjects is not the same as a bodybuilder. In fact I doubt you would get funding to administer steroids to bodybuilders, although there would be no shortage of volunteers!

The amount of test you take is your business, some think more is better, whatever. Dont forget you must take into account your level of intensity when you train, your diet, your body's recoverability, your sleep patterns, and your mind muscle connection to truely "estimate" your strength increases.

Research on medical studies is all fine and good, but if you do not bust your ass in the gym, feed, recover, repeat it don't mean shit for you. Why not train hard, eat, sleep and repeat and graph your progress as you go..., sorta your own study.

As a rule, if you are not able to add weight to each exercise every week you are lacking in intensity, diet or recovery. How much weight? who cares just keep adding it intelligently.

Just M2C

[jethro1984]

Well I will say this about your request for linear program over the next 12 weeks with estimated gains. WHY!! What is the point? Do you hope to estimate what you will squat/bench etc. over the next 12 weeks, so you can graph it and hang it up?

I am being a bit sarcastic for a reason. The studies you posted are based on different objectives than you may be interested. All studies as it relates to test have to do with dysfunction of some sort and how to possibly counter it. The motivation of the subjects is not the same as a bodybuilder. In fact I doubt you would get funding to administer steroids to bodybuilders, although there would be no shortage of volunteers!

The amount of test you take is your business, some think more is better, whatever. Dont forget you must take into account your level of intensity when you train, your diet, your body's recoverability, your sleep patterns, and your mind muscle connection to truely "estimate" your strength increases.

Research on medical studies is all fine and good, but if you do not bust your ass in the gym, feed, recover, repeat it don't mean shit for you. Why not train hard, eat, sleep and repeat and graph your progress as you go..., sorta your own study.

As a rule, if you are not able to add weight to each exercise every week you are lacking in intensity, diet or recovery. How much weight? who cares just keep adding it intelligently.

Just M2C

Exactly what I was trying to tell him! Repped for the 10pts its worth lol

[tiramisu]

I generally use a program and yes adjust it as necessary but use one nonetheless. I usually have a pretty good idea how strong I will be in 8 weeks given a program and enough food. I've done this quite a few times in the last 25 years just never with anything but food.

I am currently adapting an Advanced novice program from rippetoe's starting strength which is essentially a linear program. I have had some previous success with bill starr's 5x5 but found it too advanced and I did not see as rapid improvements with it at novice strength levels. I will likely try the 5x5 again but will probably use a Texas Method first before I do.

In establishing a new start to a 12 week linear program. I have a very good idea of my current strength increase abilities without supplements.

i.e
squat will increase 5 pounds per workout (2 a week)
front squat will increase 10 pounds per workout (new exercise)
deadlift will increase 10-15 ( 1 a week )
bench will increase 5 ( once week 1, twice week 2)
press 5
power clean 5
pull ups

Until about week 8 where I will generally reach a new strength level and start to see significant stalling no matter how much I eat. I then play with increasing recovery time to squeeze a couple more increases out and then it's time to reset again.

So the question is still one of should I be increasing my increments higher than without supplementation?

Should I simply expect it to take longer to stall and maintain my normal increments?

I'm pretty sure I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question so I'm asking it again.


Thanks.

[natenator]

Wow. Quite simpy, wow.

This is not rocket science and you are attempting to turn this into a science project. It becomes science when you are an advance or an elite athlete and making gains is done so in small increments and after all other idea's, principals and theories have been exhausted.. You are no where close to that. This probably sounds like me being a dick and an ass but oh well. I'm not going to bullshit you.

Eat food
Train hard
Supplement wisely
Rest

If you can't grow and get stronger off the above then you aren't eating enough, your training is off or you are not resting properly.

Stop making this a science project.

by the way... 160 bench? I sure as hell hope those are DB's OR you have a serious injury that you're coming back from because that's just pathetic when compared to a 290 squat and 315 DL. I don't care if you suck at pushing exercises... that stinks. I know 15 year old boys who start off lifting that from doing no more than pushups and pull ups before they got into weightlifting.

[jethro1984]

man, like I said before, you think way too much...like I already said, and 2 others did...

LIFT HEAVY, EAT LOTS, AND REST...and the gear will do the rest

[tiramisu]

Hmm,

Bench is weak. check
- MRI said ac impingement in both shoulders but it's just about recovered and only one aches now.

Think too much. check
- I'm not terribly offended and it doesn't interfere with lifting.

Eat Lots. check
- I've been learning new definitions for lots every month. I keep adding more when I stop getting stronger. Currently ~5k per day and wouldn't be surprised to hit 6k soon.

Lift Heavy. check
- I've been running as close to my ability to recover as I can and using an appropriate program. Being old, I'm as good once as I ever was but I try.

Gear - check
- I don't know whether 400/500/600 is the right amount for me but 600 uses up the bottle in the right amount of time and I'm fairly sure it won't be too little.

I find it surprising that discusions centre on labels, stacks and pct rather than exercise volume, intensity and calories.

I would have suspected that the latter would have a more significant effect on results and be deeply debated but I guess I'm just not terribly bright.

later and thanks again all.

[gojimmygo]

I find it surprising that discusions centre on labels, stacks and pct rather than exercise volume, intensity and calories.

I would have suspected that the latter would have a more significant effect on results and be deeply debated but I guess I'm just not terribly bright.

later and thanks again all.

Diet and training are more important. To answer your questions: Yes you should progress at a quicker rate then when not using aas. But as to how much quicker? Who knows,everybody responds differently. Just because something occured to someone/something in a study doesn't mean it's gonna work the same for you. Why not just go back to the way you were training and this time when you plateau start using aas to get over that hump? No offense bro but maybe you're overcomplicating the whole situation.

Jimmy

[gsxr750]

Just keep track of your training man. Bring a log book if you don't already. Go with how you're feeling that day and keep the ego out of the gym. Remind yourself every time you work out how quickly you can hurt yourself if you push yourself too much.

Just work out with high intensity and the goal of adding pounds on to your lifts every week, but don't push your limits too fast.

Just listen to your body, and compare to your log, and keep your head in check and you'll be fine.

If you benched 200 the week before start at 200 and up your weight after each set, but don't add 50 pounds, even if you can lift it. You know what I mean?

Nobody can tell you how you'll react, what's best is for you to start a journal in here, and keep us up to date and we can offer you opinions, advice, and experience as you go.

Good luck!