Nolva-Aromasin Synergy?

[GTZ3]

*Some very interesting blood work results before, during, and after a very simple pct of nolva only, followed by a "bridge" of nolva and 25mg ed of aromasin.

-obviously what works for one wont work for all, but this dudes tests levels got jacked the **** up - without any HCG.

Heres the link if you want to see all the blood work + other info:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108464231

Orginally posted by Blitz-test on BB.com

His cycle was:
1-10 Testosterone Enanthate 600mg/week
1-8 EQ 250mg/week
1-6 Dbol 40mg/ed
PCT Was:
Week 12/13/14/15
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Bridge:
15-19 Exemestane 25mg/ed
19-21 Nolvadex 40mg/eod


Test #1: Right before PCT starts (still has exogenous test)

Endocrine Function:
Total Testosterone: 1001ng/dl (300-950ng/dl)
Free Testosterone: 211pg/ml (50-210pg/ml)
Sex Hormone-binding Globulin: 64nmo/l (15-70nmo/l)
Luteinizing hormone: 1.34IU/L (1.24-7.8 IU/L)
Estradiol: 53.2pg/ml (-50pg/ml)
Estrone: 5.7pg/ml (2.6-5.4pg/ml)
Prolactin: 310miu/l (24-467miu/l)
IGF-1: 499ng/ml (182 - 780ng/ml)

Test #2: After normal PCT (Nolva 40,40,20,20):

Endocrine Function:
Total Testosterone: 599ng/dl (300-950ng/dl)
Free Testosterone: 115pg/ml (50-210 pg/ml)
Sex Hormone-binding Globulin: 63nmo/l (15-70nmo/l)
Luteinizing hormone: 6.28IU/L (1.24-7.8 IU/L)
Estradiol: 29.5pg/ml (-50pg/ml)
Estrone: 4.2pg/ml (2.6-5.4pg/ml)
Prolactin: 292miu/l (24-467miu/l)
IGF-1: 343ng/ml (182 - 780ng/ml)

Test #3- After The "Bridge"
Endocrine Function:
Total Testosterone: 1842ng/dl (300-950ng/dl) !!!!
Free Testosterone: 402pg/ml (50-210 pg/ml)
Sex Hormone-binding Globulin: 70nmo/l (15-70nmo/l)
Luteinizing hormone: 6.32IU/L (1.24-7.8 IU/L)
Estradiol: 13.9pg/ml (-50pg/ml)
Estrone: 2.2pg/ml (2.6-5.4pg/ml)
Prolactin: 47miu/l (24-467miu/l)
IGF-1: 892ng/ml (182 - 780ng/ml) !!!!

Take it for what its worth.

[Ritch]

Good read. I would have used a slower taper with the nolva weeks 19-21, just think it`s no longer necessary to use 40mg, but like the tests say it all worked out. Test levels sure are high! You think it`s because of exemestane?

[GTZ3]

Tough to call ... dont feel like digging to deep tonight. But apparently Aromasin works best when test levels are already high. Add that to nolvas anti estrogenic properties @ the pituitary, and the upregulation/ hypersensitivity of LH with a testosterone dominant environment to begin with and maybe with some tweaking and consistency this could be a ****ing bell ringer of a pct/bridge.

The increases in IGF1 and free test with the addition of aromasin also look promising.

[Vomit]

by Anthony Roberts -- Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I mean…lets face it: It’s awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesn’t have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just ‘dex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Where’s the cool nickname for Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesn’t work. It’s the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient AI for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximum aromatase inhibition (2)! So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can’t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.

So that leaves us with Arimidex, which isn’t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.

But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?

I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for PCT, since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our Cycles.

[GTZ3]

Question here: to avoid any potentialy estrogen rebound when using these two substances how should one taper off them? Drop the aromasin then go a few more weeks on low dose nolva? or vice versa? Thanks

[gustavo77]

Question here: to avoid any potentialy estrogen rebound when using these two substances how should one taper off them? Drop the aromasin then go a few more weeks on low dose nolva? or vice versa? Thanks

Aromasin does not cause any estrogen rebound. Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor of aromatase, which means it actually destroys the aromatase enzyme. It will take time for your body to start producing these enzymes again, hence the lack of estrogen rebound when ceasing Aromasin use.

[St]

Anthony Robert is one big loser and a rat,don't take his work for jack shit,he takes info from Almost from from Anabolex on GH,insulin,and other stuff then makes a book with the info he copied.

[GTZ3]

Anythony Roberts is a deuchebag who but most of his information is legit. It all tends to be copied from very reliable sources - his works cited is ussually quite impressive.

[GTZ3]

Aromasin does not cause any estrogen rebound. Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor of aromatase, which means it actually destroys the aromatase enzyme. It will take time for your body to start producing these enzymes again, hence the lack of estrogen rebound when ceasing Aromasin use.

Thanks Gust

[HoliTheCat]

PCT Was:
Week 12/13/14/15
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Bridge:
15-19 Exemestane 25mg/ed
19-21 Nolvadex 40mg/eod



So if I read this correctly the Nolva and Exemestane are only over lapping for two weeks...thats week 15 and week 19.

What would the purpose of tapering the nolva @ weeks 14 and 15, only to jack it back to 40mgs during weeks 19-21 be?

This looks interesting to me, and I might give it a run. I've been off for 3 months now and my body still isn't feeling 'normal'.

[Vomit]

Anthony Robert is one big loser and a rat,don't take his work for jack shit,he takes info from Almost from from Anabolex on GH,insulin,and other stuff then makes a book with the info he copied.

Agreed, but this article builds on the blood work results. The two seemed to complement each other. Whats interesting is that pretty much all of what bill roberts says is supported by the blood work

[HoliTheCat]

asking again...

PCT Was:
Week 12/13/14/15
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Bridge:
15-19 Exemestane 25mg/ed
19-21 Nolvadex 40mg/eod



So if I read this correctly the Nolva and Exemestane are only over lapping for two weeks...thats week 15 and week 19.

What would the purpose of tapering the nolva @ weeks 14 and 15, only to jack it back to 40mgs during weeks 19-21 be?

This looks interesting to me, and I might give it a run. I've been off for 3 months now and my body still isn't feeling 'normal'.

[nisser]

Aromasin does not cause any estrogen rebound. Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor of aromatase, which means it actually destroys the aromatase enzyme. It will take time for your body to start producing these enzymes again, hence the lack of estrogen rebound when ceasing Aromasin use.

Are you sure on that? It makes no sense because as you destroy the enzyme your body should produce more of it to compensate.

I've never wanted to test the theory (a few extra weeks of nolva is cheap enough; reward isn't high enough for the risk) and have always continued with nolva/clomid for a while longer after stopping AIs.

[GTZ3]

I think the original taper was simply Blitz running your typical 40,40,20,20 Nolva pct.

Next came his experiment which bascially to test the efficacy of using aromasin as a "bridge" so to speak, once he had already recovered. Adding the nolva back in for the last few weeks IMO is simply a good idea to cover your ass against any potential estrogen rebound (although it would rare from aromasin due to its suicidal nature).

Basically this bloodwork was the results of 2 different protocols back to back, and he immediatley jumped back on cycle after the bridge.

Perhaps a simpler protocol would be something like this:
Week 1-Nolva 20mgs ed
Week 2-Nolva 20mgs ed
Week 3-Nolva 20mgs ed
Week 4-Nolva 20mgs ed + aromasin @ 25 mg ed
Week 5-Nolva 20mgs ed + aromasin @ 25 mgs ed
Week 6-Nolva 20mgs ed + aromasin @ 25 mgs ed
Week 7-Nolva 20mgs ed
Week 8 (optional) - 10 mgs nolva ed

This would accomplish the same thing ... by week 4 the increased LH secretion should result in high/recovered test levels thus making it a good time to add the aromasin in. Add in a week or 2 of nolva post Aromasin use to prevent rebound for good measure, and Id like to think this would work.

Holi, keep us updated if you rally something like this up.

[Bigr]

IGF-1 levels are also way the hell up. This is a really interesting post bro.

From what I’ve read, much of the published information out there is sythesized from studies of single substances. Authors then try to combine the results of these studies and make guesses about what happens in vitro when a whole bunch of substances are present. To advance our understanding, we need more experiments like this to get a sense of how things actually happen in the body PC.

[td1111]

Wouldn't this cause low estrogen during PCT? I once tried front loading Aromasin prior to a cycle to get a steady blood plasma level, and I was TIRED as hell on it. Can't help but think it would do the same during PCT.

[GTZ3]

Completely agree ... all the test in the world do shit if you have no estrogen. Theres no good or bad hormones, just balances of hormones. Estrogen is something we want to keep around - just control it. Estrogen deprivation can affect mood, energy, libido, strength, recovery, and connective tissue integrity among other things.

[jacked_to_the_nine]

bridge to what? another cycle, so all this was so he could just jump on to another cycle without any down time?

[nisser]

This is a half-finished experiment. He should have taken bloodwork another 6 weeks after his bridge which would give him the same profile as the one he had right after the 4 week nolva PCT.

In other words, don't waste your aromasin in this way.