Vitargo & other gucci expensive carbs

[#8]

Worth the money with their delivery system or should I just stick with Malto?

Dextrose always seemed to make me feel like shit due to the sugar content.

Your thoughts?

[Sean Summers]

HBCD - Glycodurance for example.

[#8]

This is a sustained release carb no?

Seems inefficient for post workout shuttling.

[TT Eric]

Yes HBCD is best before and during workout, not post!

Eric

[kindofabigdeal8]

Vitargo is amazing...

[Praetorian]

I do like Vitargo but the research on peri workout nutrition puts much more emphasis on pre and intra workout using Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin as posted above(along with EAA, BCAA, hydrolyzed whey). What most people arent being told or miss is that the benefits of this supplementation is based on having a insulin rich environment. The trend nowadays using peri workout nutrition was started by information originally obtained from Milos Sarcev.

P

[#8]

Does this replace or reduce the need or post workout carbs / insulin spike seeing as the body is already saturated with an efficient carb energy source?

The literature behind pre and peri workout nutrition is interesting, but is it just another fad?

[Sean Summers]

Take it intra and you won't need the spike post workout.

[TT Eric]

Does this replace or reduce the need or post workout carbs / insulin spike seeing as the body is already saturated with an efficient carb energy source?

The literature behind pre and peri workout nutrition is interesting, but is it just another fad?

I always trained without using carbs during workouts and had them post workout and now for the last 4 months I've been using pre/intra carbs and I have (slightly) a better pump and I am less sore then before, but I can't say I have more energy, neither that I seems to add more mass then before.

I'm using my own mix of HBCD, Hydrolyzed casein (Peptopro from TN) with a little of Isomaltulose.

Eric

[Praetorian]

As stated above...intra replaces the need for post. The entire post workout window has been over stated for many years. Again the most benefit using intra is to have high insulin levels to shuttle the nutrients into the cell while training when they are best utilized....this requires more then just an insulin spike from carbs.

P

[TT Eric]

One thing I was wondering about HBCD, is how come it has a low glycemic index while it's praised for sustaining insulin levels...

Eric

[kindofabigdeal8]

I always trained without using carbs during workouts and had them post workout and now for the last 4 months I've been using pre/intra carbs and I have (slightly) a better pump and I am less sore then before, but I can't say I have more energy, neither that I seems to add more mass then before.

I'm using my own mix of HBCD, Hydrolyzed casein (Peptopro from TN) with a little of Isomaltulose.

Eric

I have continued with 35 grams + amino acids up to this point in my diet.

[#8]

So how many carbs from a source like HBCD should be used?

And when should they be taken? Pre and during? 30-50g each time? With BCAA, creatine, beta alanine, etc...?

[TT Eric]

Personally I use 120g* carbs, 1/3 just before, 2/3 during. 45g of hydrolized casein.

But some goes up to 200g and 75g casein.

I do also add beta-alanine, TMG, citruline and flavored electrolytes.

*2/3 HBCD and 1/3 isomaltulose.

I follow pretty much the ingredients label of the very expensive 'Plazma' from Biotest, I just add beta-alanine in surplus cause they don't have it and I think it's a staple.

I prepare 9lbs each time and put them in 3 jars.

Eric

[TT Eric]

I have a very good article here about HBCD, in fact they say that HBCD does not spike insulin too much but will sustain a steady supply of glucose.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/content/advanced-theory-hydration-6284/

By David Reid Elite FTS

It seems like there is a new miracle supplement discovered every day that will revolutionize the world as we know it. It will do everything…fat loss, muscle gain, fight cancer, alleviate arthritis, prevent heart disease, and even make a man’s “junk” bigger or a woman’s breasts grow to the size of watermelons! This industry can be the Wild West - not much in terms of law or regulation to keep snake oil salesmen at bay. So, how do you find what works?

First of all,we must define what a supplement’s role is. A supplement, by definition, is, “Something added to complete a thing, make up for a deficiency, or extend or strengthen the whole.” The whole is a sound nutrition program. Without rock solid base nutrition, supplements can do little. There is no miracle pill that will allow you to stuff your face full of garbage and still let you maintain a top-level physique or, for that matter, be in good health. Put as a simple equation, proper diet should make up 95 percent of your regimen and supplements should account for five percent. Essentially, supplements are the icing on the cake. I can’t tell you how many people approach me with a Jack-in-the-Box diet, and yet they have a gym bag full of the latest and greatest supplements.

Now that we understand what a supplement’s true role is, what is something (that is fairly cutting edge) that is used to help those who train hard and value recovery? Well, in the past decade, high molecular weight starches have become more prominent. The first one I encountered was Vitargo way back in 2003.

I tried it, and I could tell a profound difference in my recovery from even the toughest sessions. I also used to swallow 40 grams of BCAA tablets per hour session. So, what does these have to do with supplements? After Vitargo came out, many cheaper versions of waxy maize starch hit the market. True Nutrition, always a leader, brought out an affordable version that benefited many. I had all of my athletes on it. Now, in 2014, the new kid on the block is Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrins, or HBCDs for short. What is this mystery molecule and how may it benefit me, you may ask? That is what I will try to answer in terms most can understand.

HBCDs are made from amylopectin (starch) molecules which are enzymatically altered so that they cross bridge and link up. This changes the shape, denaturing the original molecule, much like cooking egg whites. Egg whites are still egg whites and contain the same amount of protein - they just change structurally. Imagine taking a tree branch and making it into a circle. All the leaves, branches, and stems would still be on it, but it’s now a circular tree branch. However, circular or not, it’s still a tree branch. How does this help? We will see shortly.

Now that we have defined what HBCDs are, we need to know how they benefit a body. When we work out, we create a deficit of energy, nutrients, and some hormones. How do we climb out of this self-created hole? The body needs the proper building blocks (i.e., amino acids and glucose) to repair damaged muscles. The idea is to use HBCDs pre- and inter-workout so that the body has a constant supply of energy throughout intense training sessions. You also need a protein source (BCAAs, whey hydrolysate, or a combination of the two) to fight off catabolism. A simple carbohydrate source that doesn’t cause a blood sugar spike and insulin response would be best. So, what gets one there optimally? Why not just high glycemic simple sugars? The issue with fast sugars is two-fold: with a rapid rise in blood glucose comes a rapid insulin response that almost always leads to hypoglycemia. This would be a poor choice during a workout but a great choice post-workout. With simple sugars, you would probably see your energy nose dive before you finished your lift. Simple sugars also have a very high osmolality, which we will see is problematic. So just what the hell does this osmolality word mean?!

Let’s first define osmolality. Osmolality is the number of molecules of a given substance (solute) in a kilogram of liquid (solvent). To be high in osmolality means to have many molecules in a solution. Imagine a bucket of water with 100,000 sugar (sucrose) grains in it. After these molecules dissociate, you would have 100,000 glucose and 100,000 fructose molecules floating in a solution. It makes sense that this solution has a high osmolality since it has 200,000 molecules in a solution. The following example should provide a simple understanding: you could have 200,000 fructose and glucose molecules in a solution vs. 2,000 one-hundred long glucose chains. Of course these numbers don’t represent the reality – they were just an off the cuff comparison.

So, how does the above mumbo jumbo affect you? The stomach has osmo-receptors that sense osmolality of the incoming solutions. The higher the osmolality, the slower the gastric emptying rate. Therefore, the high sugar solution is actually held up longer in the stomach while the HBCDs travel like a bowling ball through your stomach and into the intestine to be absorbed. The beauty is, these molecules are so interlinked and complex that it takes a long time to hydrolyze (break down) the glucose bonds, resulting in a rapid but sustainable release of glucose into the bloodstream. This helps avoid insulin spikes and resultant blood sugar crashes.

Peri-workout nutrition ( nutrition taken in before, during, and after a workout) is becoming more prevalent. High glycemic carbohydrates are great post-training. They essencially force feed the muscle glucose in a hurry, usually resulting in blood sugar dips. While this is great post-workout, it would be terrible for workout performance. A great way to maximize this anabolic window, however, is to drink HBCDs before and during your workout, along with either BCAAs or whey hydrolysate to deliver nutrients to your muscles while you train. Right now, you can buy HBCDs from www.truenutrition.com or use Glycofuse from Gaspari Nutrition. They are both excellent products. There are other companies out there, but I can’t personally speak for their products. HBCDs come in alpha, beta, and gamma chains. The beta chain is currently the preferred molecule in bodybuilding as it seems to favor rapid protein uptake according to the most recent research. Gaspari Nutrition and True Nutrition carry the beta chain, and they are trusted sources, so I highly recommend either. Powerhouse Gym Clinton Township carries Glycofuse, so pick it up from your gym . Go buy some today and improve your recovery and make those hard-earned gains you are seeking a reality!

As for dosing, this inter-workout drink could contain anywhere from 10 to 50% of the daily carbohydrate intake totals. It would depend entirely on how lean the person is and how much lean muscle mass he or she has. I dilute 75 grams in half a gallon of water. You do not bloat and it seems to fill out my muscle nicely, and it doesn’t interfere with fat loss. By keeping the mixture high in water content, you make the mixture lower in osmolality, which is our goal. A good rule of thumb is that if you don’t dilute the solution enough, you get a rather unpleasant effect called “dumping syndrome.” It is a real medical issue but literally feels like your colon is trying to turn inside out. You will pass feces like a 12-gauge shotgun blast. At that point, you know you have a hyper-osmolality solution. Simple fix: add more water. The drawback for bigger bodybuilders (240 pounds or more) is that some can utilize up to 250 grams of HBCDs. This may take three-quarters of a gallon to keep the solution with lower osmolality. Drinking high amounts of water during a workout could either force you to pee a ton or rely on Depends panties! All kidding aside, most people will have to tinker with “their” mix so they can maximize the load they are able to consume.

Why is it important to keep the mixture diluted enough? If it isn’t diluted properly, then you will find the solution has an osmolality higher than your serum (blood), which has a normal reference range of 278-300 mmol/kg of water at roughly a 15% solution. So, for the HBCDs to be absorbed rapidly, the solution needs to be lower than the serum. HBCDs are roughly 160,000 Daltons in weight versus dextrose at roughly 160 Daltons, which simply means that they are 1,000 times larger and more complex. Obviously we need the solution to be lower in osmolality than serum. I believe roughly 100 grams of HBCDs mixed with a half-gallon of water would provide an osmolality of around 11. This would be a good dosing for a male middleweight bodybuilder. The larger the muscle mass, the higher the gram dosage of HBCDs; therefore, you need more water to dilute the solution enough to bring it below the serum to allow for rapid gastric emptying.

Hopefully this article makes sense to most people so that the terms Daltons, osmolality, and rapid gastric emptying are no longer a mystery. That way more athletes can take advantage of HBCDs in their quest for gains.

Source: http://articles.elitefts.com/nutriti...-replenishment

Eric

[Praetorian]

One thing I was wondering about HBCD, is how come it has a low glycemic index while it's praised for sustaining insulin levels...

Eric


HBCD have a low osmolality which means they get into solution faster and are much faster leaving the stomach..ie gastric emptying. However the body absorbs carbs in the small intestine and that is where you want a longer sustained release into the blood stream.

This article will help explain things..

P


October 2012: Cyclic Dextrins – the Ultimate Intraworkout Carb
By Bill Wills

The next rage in carbohydrate supplementation involves the use of designer glucose polymers called highly branched cyclic dextrins (HBCDs). A few supplement companies are now including HBCDs as a major carb source in their products, and some companies are even offering HBCDs as stand-alone product. A lot of claims have been made, but do these “designer” carbs really live up to all the hype? What are HBCDs, how do they work, and how can we use them as a tool to take our training, nutrition, and performance to the next level?
To answer these questions and more, we need to take a look at carb supplementation in general. It’s a good idea to include some type of carbohydrate supplement in your intra-workout nutrition. This serves two purposes: to deliver a rapid and steady supply of blood glucose to hard working muscles, and to harness the power of insulin, the most anabolic hormone. This keeps performance up, protein synthesis on, and minimizes the inherently catabolic effects of intense training. To that end, it is a common practice to use a combination of quickly digesting proteins such as casein or whey hydrolysates along with a carb source in the intra-workout nutrition shake. While protein is obviously important, the choice of the carb source is also key. The simplest way to go is to use simple carbs such as glucose (aka dextrose). After all, all complex carbs are broken down into glucose before they are absorbed, and glucose is absorbed very rapidly.

The problem with dextrose/simple carbs:
Although dextrose/simple carbs look good on paper, things are not so simple in reality. The human body is a finely tuned machine. Nutrient density is sensed in the small intestine by special types of receptors called “osmoreceptors”, which sense the concentration (also referred to as “osmolality”) of stomach contents as they exit the stomach. This information is relayed back to the stomach through neural and hormonal messages, controlling the rate of gastric emptying. If these osmoreceptors sense that contents exiting the stomach have a high osmolality, gastric emptying is delayed. This is a problem with dextrose/simple sugars in general: In spite of warp-speed absorption in the small intestine, glucose/simple sugar solutions (unless they are VERY dilute) have an extremely high osmolality. This delays gastric emptying into the small intestine, where carbs are actually absorbed. Worse, in the context of an intra-workout nutrition shake, you aren’t only delaying the delivery of carbs; delivery of those fast acting (and generally pricey) protein hydrolysates will also be delayed. Use too many of the wrong type of carbs, and you might as well be gnawing on a steak during your workout, which wouldn’t be a terrible thing, but good luck getting any amino acids actually delivered to muscle tissue during in a timely fashion!
To understand how this works, it helps to understand osmolality. Osmolality is a measure of the concentration of a solution in terms of osmoles solute (Osm) per kilogram of solvent. For our purposes here, the “solute” is the stuff being dissolved (carbs, for the sake of our discussion), and the “solvent” is the stuff that does the dissolving (the water in your intra-workout shake). To avoid overloading the digestive system, the stomach senses the concentration of stomach contents as they pass into the small intestine, and regulates gastric emptying accordingly.

What about glycemic index?
Concentrated dextrose/simple carb solutions have a high osmolality, which delays gastric emptying. But doesn’t dextrose have a high glycemic index? Generally when a “fast” carb source is desired, we choose one with a high glycemic index, which is a measure of the blood glucose increase from carb consumption. Dextrose has a very high glycemic index, so it does seem a bit paradoxical that high GI concentrated dextrose/simple carb solutions also delay gastric emptying. To illustrate how this works, think of a horse race, where each different type of carb is a different horse, and glucose is the fastest horse out there. The problem is, after the starting gun is fired, when all the slower horses are off to the races (to the small intestine), glucose is stuck at the gate (in the stomach). Glucose isn’t worried though. It’s the fastest horse out there, and can easily make up the lost ground. Before the race is over, the gate finally opens for glucose, which flies around the track, leaving all the other horses in a cloud of dust as it crosses the finish line (i.e. absorption from the small intestine into the bloodstream). This nicely illustrates second problem with dextrose as a carb source in your intra-workout shake. Blood glucose levels are not sustainable. Although delayed, glucose absorption in the small intestine is extremely rapid, sending a huge bolus of sugar into the bloodstream. Naturally, this causes a big insulin response to deal with all that blood sugar. The problem is that when insulin is released in large amounts, it almost always does too good of a job. The increase in blood sugar is transient. After insulin spikes, blood sugar decreases, usually causing hypoglycemia.
Of course a solution to the problem would be to constantly sip simple carbs throughout your workout. This fixes the “sustainability” issue, but not the delay in gastric emptying. Unless you are dealing with an extremely dilute solution, simple carbs in ample amounts will significantly delay gastric emptying. Not only will protein absorption be delayed, but this is also a common cause of stomach cramps. This is one of the major reasons why people complain of stomach issues when drinking these intraworkout drinks actually. Not good.

The fix: high molecular weight glucose polymers
Fortunately, there is a way to “trick” the stomach into releasing large amounts of carbohydrate into the small intestine for rapid absorption. Rapid absorption isn’t our only concern though. Going back to the horse-race analogy, we a need a horse that runs slow, but is also very fast out of the gate. This would provide a rapid, but sustained increase in blood sugar. High molecular weight glucose polymers are ideal in this respect. When glucose molecules are linked together to form high molecular weight polymers, one molecule can consist of hundreds to thousands of individual glucose molecules linked together. These high molecular weight polymers have a much lower osmolality in solution. As a simple example, compare a solution consisting free glucose molecules (i.e dextrose) to another solution of equal volume with an equivalent amount of glucose, but in the form of high molecular weight glucose polymers. (Remember, that osmolality = molecules of solute/ kg of solvent.) Because there are much more solute molecules in the dextrose solution, a dextrose solution will always have a much higher osmolality than an equivalent solution of glucose polymers. Now you understand the value of high molecular weight carbs; they have a much lower osmolality in solution compared to free glucose, so they are emptied from the stomach extremely fast.
Although emptied from the stomach rapidly, high molecular starches are also very large, so they need to by hydrolyzed into free glucose by digestive enzymes in the small intestine before they are absorbed into the blood stream. This property makes them an ideal carb source; high molecular weight glucose polymers generally provide a rapid, but very sustained release of glucose into the bloodstream. One of the most popular high molecular weight starches in recent years has been waxy maize. The carbs in waxy maize consist almost exclusively of amylopectin, a glucose polymer with a highly branched molecular structure. Because of an extremely long glucose chain length and extensive branching, the starch in waxy maize has a high molecular weight. As mentioned above, high molecular weight = low osmolality in solution. As a result waxy maize passes through the stomach much faster than an equivalent glucose solution. The highly branched structure of the amylopectin starch in waxy maize also provides a slower, steadier release of glucose into the bloodstream. This gives a rapid, but also sustained release of glucose.

Enter HBCDs
The current state of the art in carb supplementation involves taking natural starches like the amylopectin in waxy maize and modifying their molecular structure to increase molecular weight as well as the extent of branching/crosslinking. Increased molecular weight reduces osmolality in solution, speeding up gastric emptying. Increased branching/crosslinking controls the access of intermolecular glucose linkages to digestive enzymes, which extends absorption time in the small intestine. The result is an ideal carb source; one which passes through the stomach very rapidly, providing a quick but also sustained release of glucose into the blood stream. With these properties in mind, highly branched cyclic dextrins (HBCDs) were created. HBCDs are a new type of glucose polymer that is produced by reacting waxy maize starch with a special branching enzyme, forming a cyclical structure. The result is a glucose polymer with some ideal properties: HBCDs have an average molecular weight of 160,000 Da, so they have an extremely low osmolality in solution and a rapid gastric emptying time. (*Compare HBCDs to dextrose, which has a molecular weight of around 180 Da!) The highly branched/cyclical structure of HBCDs also provides a rapid, but very sustained release of glucose into the bloodstream (1, 2).
HBCDs don’t just look good on paper; preliminary animal research suggests they can actually increase athletic performance (1). As you can see in the figure below from Takii et al. 1999, HBCD supplementation in mice significantly increased swimming time to fatigue compared to glucose or water. These results are not actually surprising; it makes sense that sustained glucose release provides a steadier supply of carbohydrates to burn when glycogen stores are depleted by intense exercise.


Wrap-up:
HBCDs are one of a number of new “designer” carbs that are definitely worth checking out. There are two very big advantages to using these high molecular weight glucose polymers in your intra-workout nutrition. First, they provide a rapid, but very sustained release of blood glucose. How rapid vs. how sustained depends not only on molecular weight but also on the overall molecular structure, which determines how quickly enzymes in the small intestine are able hydrolyze these large glucose polymers into free glucose for absorption. The use of a particular branching enzyme with HBCDs resulted in a high molecular weight glucose polymer with some ideal properties. The second advantage to using high molecular weight glucose polymers is that that they have a very low osmolality in solution. Unless you are an endurance athlete, you probably include some type of protein isolate or hydrolysate in your peri-workout nutrition. The last thing you want to do is delay absorption of this “fast” protein by delaying gastric emptying with high osmolality carbs. More likely than not, there will be many more advances in the science of carbohydrate supplementation in the future, and we’ll be here to keep you posted.
Until next month,
Bill





Reference List

1. Takii H, Ishihara K, Kometani T, Okada S, Fushiki T. Enhancement of swimming endurance in mice by highly branched cyclic dextrin. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem 1999;63:2045-52.
2. Takii H, Takii NY, Kometani T, Nishimura T, Nakae T, Kuriki T, et al. Fluids containing a highly branched cyclic dextrin influence the gastric emptying rate. Int J Sports Med 2005;26:314-9.

[#8]

Im still confused on how much I need per workout?

[Sean Summers]

#8 just pick a number and start there. We don't know how much you weigh or your goals. Start with 25g intra-workout and judge. Are you recovering better? If not, add a bit more - 5g. Are you adding fat - adjust by lowering. Drop it by 5g. No one is going to able to give you a bang on amount without knowing anything about your body comp or goals. Like I said pick a number and work from there. You'll have it figured out in 2 weeks.

[#8]

Sounds good. Lets do that

[TT Eric]

HBCD have a low osmolality which means they get into solution faster and are much faster leaving the stomach..ie gastric emptying. However the body absorbs carbs in the small intestine and that is where you want a longer sustained release into the blood stream.

This article will help explain things..

P

Your article and mine says the same thing! From what I can understand HBCD does not create a high insulogenic environment during training.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Your article and mine says the same thing! From what I can understand HBCD does not create a high insulogenic environment during training.

Eric

Bingo...insulin is the missing component in getting maximum gains...as well you cannot expect optimal gains doing a low volume HIT workout. Volume and insulin is key here to maximize nutrient uptake by muscle cells. Remember all the intra workout nutrition hype originated from Milos' intra workout protocol and hence the training he used during that protocol.
P

[TT Eric]

Bingo...that is the missing component in getting maximum gains...insulin.

P

What do you put in your intra shake to get the insulin needed ?

Or is it really needed ? According to both articles, they say you don't want insulin very high, it would lead to hypoglycemia...

My understanding, is that HBCD might not be highly insulogenic, but since it's a carb the body will produce undoubtedly some insulin and if you pair your HBCD with hydrolyzed casein or whey, it will also lead to some insulin, just not too high to cause hypoglycemia, but enough for the cells (more sensible when training) to get what they need.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Yes of course insulin will be produced from intake of HBCD...even protein causes an insulin release. The suggestion around using HBCD naturally is to add a fast protein source ie hydrolyzed, other specific components ie creatine, citrilline malate, and beta alanine. Yes this will improve performance and muscle gains if the proper training is used in conjunction and you will not go hypo. However all of this was derived from the use of exogenous insulin ie Humalog prior to training...5-10iu Humalog ten minutes before training and then drinking a solution of 100-120g carbs (HBCD) + hydrolyzed protein 40g plus any other items mentioned above.

P

[TT Eric]

I didn't knew is was derived from exogenous insulin studies... Am I right to say it's still nevertheless the best option for those who train without Humalog ?

Thanks

I've been doing this combo since September:

75g HBCD
40g Isomaltulose
45g Hydrolyzed Casein (peptopro)
10g Beta-Alanine
8g citruline
1.5g TMG
Flavored electrolytes (make this taste better)

Sometime I add 2g Carnitine L-Tartate.

Eric

[Praetorian]

It definitely will still provide benefits without exogenous insulin just not at the same level. Your recipe looks fine! Remember benefits will be maximized on this protocol if volume is high...Milos used giant sets alot.

P

[#8]

Another point for Milos! lol

[TT Eric]

It definitely will still provide benefits without exogenous insulin just not at the same level. Your recipe looks fine! Remember benefits will be maximized on this protocol if volume is high...Milos used giant sets alot.

P

I've noticed I can't do more sets then before, I'm less light headed when I train, but contrary to what I thought I cannot train longer, 16-18 working sets to failure is my max (without all the warm-ups sets), usually 1h45 +/- 15 min workouts (without warm-ups/stretching).

You think it's enough ?

To do more sets, I would need to lower the intensity, ie keep a rep or 2 in the tank. That way I can train longer.

Eric

[#8]

So if insulin inducement is ideal, then is Waxy Maize or Malto not fine then for intra / post?

[Praetorian]

Eric I would think that is long enough. Waxy is also low osmolality and high molecular weight similar to HBCD so yes it should work...malto doesnt exit the stomach as fast and cause upset similar to dextrose.

P

[TT Eric]

Hey I dunno if any of you guys have used HBCD for a while, but for me, after 2-3 months of use, it seems to have increased my appetite a lot right after training...

Now as soon as I put my foot in my house after training I want to eat right now, I'm freaking hungry, never it happened before, I always came home not able to eat for at least 1h30-2hrs and often it was force-feeding.

Eric